Differences between HKD and Sin Moo HKD?

[zenmonk]

wikipedia covered some details (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sin_Moo_Hapkido), but I'm still wondering what are the major differences between Hapkido and Sin Moo Hapkido?

[nj_howard]

???

Sin Moo Hapkido is Hapkido. It's the kwan founded by Master Ji Han Jae.

[American HKD]

Greetings

There are some major differences one main point is Sinmoo philosophy is very important to the art because we teach a lot about Ki development, meditation, breath control, holistic behavior for being a good human being.

Technique wise it's similar to Korean Hapkido we do have many types of kicking methods, weapons, and a very principle oriented way of executing techniques so their strong and powerful.

All this adds up to Sinmoo having a fair amount of differences.

[dortiz]

Depending on how deep in your research of the arts you are it may help to think of it in terms of Karate. You seperate Karate from say, Silat but yet within Karate there are many styles or schools. The same applies with Hapkido. As mentioned by Master Rosenberg the Sin Moo group has a heavy emphasis on balancing the philosophy.


Cheers,
Dave O.

[zenmonk]

Alright, "roughly speaking" it's about having some spiritual stuff in the art. Thanks.

[American HKD]

Alright, "roughly speaking" it's about having some spiritual stuff in the art. Thanks.

Greetings

It can't be fluffed off as "spiritual stuff" that is missing the boat and value it's much more and has real application on the Sinmoo practioner and the system itself.

There are physical aspects that differ quite a bit from other systems, our kicking methods for example is not found in other branches, our very direct and small circle are also trademarks of the style.

[zenmonk]

I have no intention to say that "spiritual stuff" wouldn't have a meaning or purpose.

But, I did get the impression that "spiritual stuff" (I mean "meditation, Ki development, meditation, breath control, holistic behavior for being a good human being.") were more expressed in "sin moo HKD" than Hapkido.

You add that also the physical kicks/techniques are different as well.

What would be - in your opinion - the most striking differences between HKD and Sin Moo HDK? I just try to get the "big picture", and I realize that there are differences between instructors... the "big picture" or "somewhat simplified explanation" would be good for me :)

[dortiz]

The only point I might make here is more to what Master Spivey said. You keep saying Sin moo compared to Hapkido. Sin Moo is Hapkido. That makes the question a bit confusing. At its base comparison are you asking what seperates Sin moo from all or some of the other Kwans?


Dave O.

Hey...another Capricorn that also speaks spanish as well. BD Jan 16th.

[klaasb]

Hapkido is not the name of one martial art, it is the name for a collection of styles.
Just like in for example in karate you have shotokan, wado ryu, etc. etc. in hapkido you have several styles as well. Some differ a lot, some are almost identical.

[iron_ox]

Hapkido is not the name of one martial art, it is the name for a collection of styles.
Just like in for example in karate you have shotokan, wado ryu, etc. etc. in hapkido you have several styles as well. Some differ a lot, some are almost identical.


NOw Klaas - you know that is simply NOT true. Hapkido is the art of Choi Dojunim - there may be many interpretations of that art - most are not accurate.

[nj_howard]

The only point I might make here is more to what Master Spivey said...
Hi Dave,

Thanks for the compliment, but I'm not a master. Just a student. :)

Hey...another Capricorn that also speaks spanish as well. BD Jan 16th.
January 18 for me... pretty close. But I probably have more ticks on my clock than you. :)

As for the Spanish... some study in high school and college, but most of my knowledge is from "la universidad de la vida" - eight years with my ex-wife, who's Puerto Rican.

Many fun stories!

[zenmonk]

The only point I might make here is more to what Master Spivey said. You keep saying Sin moo compared to Hapkido. Sin Moo is Hapkido. That makes the question a bit confusing. At its base comparison are you asking what seperates Sin moo from all or some of the other Kwans?

Well, that's basically because I didn't think that Sin Moo was "part of Hapkido" or heard that there would be other Hapkido styles. I only heard about "Hapkido" and then "Sin Moo Hapkido" that was developed from Hapkido.

And the following comments confuse me even more :D

Hapkido is not the name of one martial art, it is the name for a collection of styles.
Just like in for example in karate you have shotokan, wado ryu, etc. etc. in hapkido you have several styles as well. Some differ a lot, some are almost identical.
NOw Klaas - you know that is simply NOT true. Hapkido is the art of Choi Dojunim - there may be many interpretations of that art - most are not accurate.
So... could somebody please tell me whadda heck is Sin Moo Hapkido, and what is Hapkido and does Hapkido have different styles or not :love:

[MaxG]

So... could somebody please tell me whadda heck is Sin Moo Hapkido, and what is Hapkido and does Hapkido have different styles or not :love:

http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j244/BasFan/can_o_worms.jpg

Trust me. You don't want to get into Hapkido history, how many styles, who started it, what Hapkido really is, what people believe it is or isn't, etc. etc.

Just take a few classes and see for yourself. That's the best way.

[American HKD]

Greetings

Klaas is correct, Sinmoo is a unique style in the HKD arts. However earlier Korean Hapkido is also the the system established by Doju Ji. (another topic)

Sinmoo HKD is not the Art of Choi Yong Sool it has some basis in the Art of Choi Yong Sool. Choi's system didn't have our kicks, weapons, philosophy, etc.. etc...

To the other guys it difficult to just explain the difference in Sinmoo and Hapkido on line in a way that you would really understand it has to be expirenced by a qualified instructor to understand over some time period.

Philosophy, DJ breathing, meditation is all a serious part of the system and some elements of a holistic approach is present but it's also about Ki development, breath development to become a super charged "you".

Also the kicking is different then most other forms of HKD, many of the other are more tae kwon do oriented and Master Ji's is not that way at all.
There are no good examples on line that I know of.

Again our tech are a lot of smaller circles, direct sometimes almost looking straight line-ish, our power is developed by pendulum theory and builds speed and power from momentum in the swing of the circle.

Again you need to compare tech for tech to see writing this on line is hard.

Sorry

[zenmonk]

Greetings

Klaas is correct, Sinmoo is a unique style in the HKD arts. However earlier Korean Hapkido is also the the system established by Doju Ji. (another topic)

Sinmoo HKD is not the Art of Choi Yong Sool it has some basis in the Art of Choi Yong Sool. Choi's system didn't have our kicks, weapons, philosophy, etc.. etc...

To the other guys it difficult to just explain the difference in Sinmoo and Hapkido on line in a way that you would really understand it has to be expirenced by a qualified instructor to understand over some time period.

Philosophy, DJ breathing, meditation is all a serious part of the system and some elements of a holistic approach is present but it's also about Ki development, breath development to become a super charged "you".

Also the kicking is different then most other forms of HKD, many of the other are more tae kwon do oriented and Master Ji's is not that way at all.
There are no good examples on line that I know of.

Again our tech are a lot of smaller circles, direct sometimes almost looking straight line-ish, our power is developed by pendulum theory and builds speed and power from momentum in the swing of the circle.

Again you need to compare tech for tech to see writing this on line is hard.

Sorry

Thanks for the reply. This clears things a bit ... :)


http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j244/BasFan/can_o_worms.jpg

Trust me. You don't want to get into Hapkido history, how many styles, who started it, what Hapkido really is, what people believe it is or isn't, etc. etc.

Just take a few classes and see for yourself. That's the best way.
Lol. Thanks

Now... everybody pretend you didn't see this thread. Mm'kay?

[klaasb]

NOw Klaas - you know that is simply NOT true. Hapkido is the art of Choi Dojunim - there may be many interpretations of that art - most are not accurate.

This is where you and I have different views.

[iron_ox]

This is where you and I have different views.


Hello all,

No, there is a difference between a fact and a "view". Simply point out a single art you claim is part of your so-called Hapkido arts that is not traced back to Choi Dojunim and your "view" stands; however, the fact is that all these so called "Hapkido arts" are the direct or indirect result of Choi Dojunim and his art of Hapkido.

Not to be confrontational Klaas, and not to sound harsh in any way - please don't read it as such, but it is time that Choi Dojunim received the credit he is due for the foundation of Hapkido - and the techniques he established need to be recognized for the strength they have - this is no more evident in all the offshoots that have spawed over the years - some good, some not so good - but all from his original teachings.

zenmonk - follow the advise given here and try a few classes and see what suits you best. Master Rosenberg is a great resource here as he is trained directly in Sin Moo and has seen Choi Dojunim's technique as well.

[American HKD]

Greetings

It's true the core techniques of Korean HKD or Sinmoo HKD come from Choi Yong Sul.

Additions were made by Ji Han Jae later who developed mainstream Korean HKD and a lot of other people made various changes creating different styles.

Choi Yong Sul's HKD is really the same system of Japanese Yawara he studied while in Japan, I think it's fair to say he was not influenced by the changes Koreans were making to his art.

Master Sogor does that sound fair?

[iron_ox]

Greetings

It's true the core techniques of Korean HKD or Sinmoo HKD come from Choi Yong Sul.

Additions were made by Ji Han Jae later who developed mainstream Korean HKD and a lot of other people made various changes creating different styles.

Choi Yong Sul's HKD is really the same system of Japanese Yawara he studied while in Japan, I think it's fair to say he was not influenced by the changes Koreans were making to his art.

Master Sogor does that sound fair?

Hello all,

C'mon Stu, you need not be so formal!! :)

I think that is a fair assessment - I might argue the semantics - but clearly, without Choi Dojunim, NONE of this would be happening. I only object to the use of Hapkido as a Generic term - it is not "Karate" with lots of hybrid systems and no central figure - the fact remains that no other system from Korea has ever sprung up without the core belonging eventually to Choi Dojunim.

[American HKD]

Hello all,

C'mon Stu, you need not be so formal!! :)

I think that is a fair assessment - I might argue the semantics - but clearly, without Choi Dojunim, NONE of this would be happening. I only object to the use of Hapkido as a Generic term - it is not "Karate" with lots of hybrid systems and no central figure - the fact remains that no other system from Korea has ever sprung up without the core belonging eventually to Choi Dojunim.

Greetings,

Kevin thanks I agree but there are in fact many Hapkido off shoots.

Many believe HKD was Ji Han Jae's "new system" based in part from Choi's material is off shoot #1.

Doju Ji calls what he learned from Choi simply Yawara and so did Choi at that time even GM Lim admits that.

That's the semantics I think Yawara or Hapkido equals the same thing under Choi himself.

From all the teachers of HKD I've seen GM Lim and Doju Ji's systems are very close. Last summer GM Lim told me I was using the correct HKD principles even though we didn't do the tech exactly the same however many were the same.

I think many people's techniques became watered down a bit or changed over time and many teachers left Ji to make their own styles and that counts for many off shoots all calling what they do HKD but they're not the same.

What we have today is many calling what they do HKD but are far removed from the root of Choi.

I can go on for a long time but I know you get it.

[klaasb]

First, I do see Choi as the founder of hapkido. But depending on the way you look at it you could also say that Ji was the founder or that the art was founded by several people in a spontaneous co-proces.

Maybe a small comparison with our Japanese cousin clears things up a bit.
Is Takeda the founder of Aikido? Some styles of aikido are very close to what he taught, others (most) are closer to what Ueshiba taught. So, we give credit where credit is due and call Ueshiba the founder of Aikido. But we also can clearly see that there are many styles of Aikido. Some with minute differences, and some with bigger differences.

It has been said that 'Choi sparked the flame and Ji the fire' (or something along these lines) which I think gives to much credit to Ji. I think Choi started a fire, and several people took a burning piece of wood from that fire to start their own fires else where.

If you follow your line of thinking, why not call Takeda the founder of Hapkido?

[JimH]

Choi brought the concept of Jujitsu/Yawara to Korea,without that concept being brought there would be No Korean Version of the art of Yawara/Jujitsu to be created/called Hapkido.

Simialrly if there was No Shotokan Karate brought to Korea there would be NO Tae Kwon Do.

If there was NO Judo then there would be No Yudo in Korea.

Everything has a Base art from which it came,from which basics skills were taken and OFF Shoots created.

Without Ueshiba's tweeks and twists to his Jujitsu would there be Aikido?

Without Jujitsu would Kano have been able to create an art known as Judo and/or would there be an off shoot of Judo called Gracie BJJ,which is a perfection of Judo's Ground game?

Nothing is brand New
No Art sprang from Nothing.

If we follow the believed spread of Martial Arts/Military arts from the Spartans to India to the Bodidarma to China and Shaolin to the rest of the Orient we will see alot of offshoots from the base Martial/Military combat skills.
(unless we believe all arts of the world came from the center of the Martial Universe,KOREA ?)

Hapkido is a young enough art that we know where the concepts came from,so to ignore the original source is to accept the changes and disregard the basis or basics of the art.

[iron_ox]

First, I do see Choi as the founder of hapkido. But depending on the way you look at it you could also say that Ji was the founder or that the art was founded by several people in a spontaneous co-proces.

This is confusing - first you say Choi Dojunim is the Founder - then say it could be Ji or others - but see what you said - "depending on the way you look at it" - but there is the issue between fact and desire - Fact is Choi Dojunim founded the art so many went on to change. Viewpoint here is not really relevant without evidence...

Maybe a small comparison with our Japanese cousin clears things up a bit.
Is Takeda the founder of Aikido? Some styles of aikido are very close to what he taught, others (most) are closer to what Ueshiba taught. So, we give credit where credit is due and call Ueshiba the founder of Aikido. But we also can clearly see that there are many styles of Aikido. Some with minute differences, and some with bigger differences.

Of course Takeda didn't found Aikido - Ueshiba took what he was taught and changed/added material and Aikido was born. Choi Dojunim called his art Hapkido - and signed all certificates to that effect - it is his art. Now there are many variants of Hapkido - some closer to Choi Dojunim's material - some not. But there is only one Hapkido - and then lots of variation - the trick is to find out where the founding master of the variant got in the Hapkido curriculum - easy as certificates were issued from early days - so when someone claims to be a student of Choi Dojunim, let him produce the document to that effect.

I am far more comfortable with the variants that simply gave their groups new names - like Kuk Sool Won and Hwarangdo, even Hankido - these are not the same art as Choi Dojunim's Hapkido - and clearly they differentiate themselves as so.

It has been said that 'Choi sparked the flame and Ji the fire' (or something along these lines) which I think gives to much credit to Ji. I think Choi started a fire, and several people took a burning piece of wood from that fire to start their own fires else where.

I agree, Ji has been given too much credit for many things - he did, with the help of others, popularize the material he learned from Choi Dojunim - but he later changed many elements that are not part of Choi Dojunim's lexicon of technique - BUT since he changed the name to Sin Moo Hapkido, it clearly separates him from Choi Dojunim's original concept for the art.

If you follow your line of thinking, why not call Takeda the founder of Hapkido?

Sorry, I don't follow at all here - Choi Dojunim brought this material to Korea - and created his art around what he taught. The bottom line is we don't know what Takeda called the skill set he taught Choi Dojunim - but it is somewhat different from todays mainline Daito Ryu - finally, Choi Dojunim settled on the name Hapkido (sorry, I don't for one moment believe Ji at age 17 had anything to do with that - and Suh Bok Sub concurs) - and the art was his with the 3806 techniques he taught.

[American HKD]

Greetings

" and the art was his with the 3806 techniques he taught"

Kevin do you really believe in that many tech???

Sinmoo has appx. 800 techs.

[klaasb]

In my opinion Choi is the founder, lay the foundation for, the hapkido arts. That is what I choose to believe. But there are valid reasons to say that Ji Han Jae founded the art.

Of course Takeda didn't found Aikido - Ueshiba took what he was taught and changed/added material and Aikido was born. Choi Dojunim called his art Hapkido

When you change a few names:
Of course Choi didn't found Hapkido - Ji Han Jae took what he was taught and changed/added material and Aikido was born. Ji Dojunim called his art Hapkido.

To me hapkido is Choi's material with a lot of stuff added. Since Choi didn't add that stuff himself (which he didn't), you could argue that the people who added the techniques were the founders. Now I don't believe this was done singlehandedly by Ji.

[iron_ox]

Greetings

" and the art was his with the 3806 techniques he taught"

Kevin do you really believe in that many tech???

Sinmoo has appx. 800 techs.

Hello all,

Yes, mainly based on the number of techniques that Grandmaster Lim reports to know and teach.

[iron_ox]

In my opinion Choi is the founder, lay the foundation for, the hapkido arts. That is what I choose to believe. But there are valid reasons to say that Ji Han Jae founded the art.

Can you elaborate?

When you change a few names:

Here we have gone from a fact, to a fantasy...


To me hapkido is Choi's material with a lot of stuff added. Since Choi didn't add that stuff himself (which he didn't), you could argue that the people who added the techniques were the founders. Now I don't believe this was done singlehandedly by Ji.


How do you know - other than the kicks what he added? Ji takes claim (for example) for adding the weapons - yet those that I have seen that only trained with Choi Dojunim learned cane, 3 lengths of dan bong, sword defense, knife offense and defense, and knife and object throwing - so, I would say there is great room to believe that Ji is "embellishing" what he actually added to this art.

[GreenDragonHKD]

going back to the original thread question....honestly I practice Sin Moo HKD and have done so for a long time....I have my 4th and 5th dan in Sin Moo and the 4th dan test involved me demonstrating and explaining the complete curriculum of Sin Moo techniques with Master Rick Nabors..one technique at a time for EVERY technique in the curriculum....my 5th dan was given to me by Doju Nim Ji Han Jae after he put me with some "new" students for two days and made me teach them Sin Moo and then practice Sin Moo myself while he watched.......sooooooooooo...I didn't get my Sin Moo certification quick or easy if you know what I mean????? I got all my earlier geup belts and my 1st, 2nd and 3rd dan under the KHA system,,,,which is the old amalgamation of HKD that went thru Vietnam...Presidential Bodyguards....etc...most of you know the stories....the reason I'm stating all of this is to give you my background on this so I can say that there really is not much of a difference between the Sin Moo Hapkido and all the other Hapkido I have studied...I think Sin Moo focuses on the use of your body to administer the techniques more which in my opinion makes it more powerful and easier to lock up techniques on people...but that is really just going back to really good basics....the meditation and way of living is more prevalent in Sin Moo BUT I have met old KHA style masters that also do most of the same breathing and meditational practices that we do in Sin Moo......so in closing I personally feel that studying Sin Moo has brought me back to the basics of Hapkido rather than some "new age" Hapkido.... :rolleyes:
Michael Tomlinson
zdragon.bitbytenibble.com

[dortiz]

New Age Hapkido?
Celestial arm bars and meditative chokes?

: )


Dave O.

[GreenDragonHKD]

all while beating someone on the head with a large crystal wand!!!
Michael Tomlinson :love:

[Hyung]

In my opinion Choi is the founder, lay the foundation for, the hapkido arts. That is what I choose to believe. But there are valid reasons to say that Ji Han Jae founded the art.



When you change a few names:


To me hapkido is Choi's material with a lot of stuff added. Since Choi didn't add that stuff himself (which he didn't), you could argue that the people who added the techniques were the founders. Now I don't believe this was done singlehandedly by Ji.


Of course..... no one is dismissing master Ji's contribution to the Hapkido.
And of course too..... no single man, added all the stuff, the founder: Choi, originally taught.
There's no real founder.... but if there has to be named, he is Choi Yong Sul.

Best regards.

[Hyung]

NOw Klaas - you know that is simply NOT true. Hapkido is the art of Choi Dojunim - there may be many interpretations of that art - most are not accurate.

Sure... that's what your kwan and master tells you about what is true. So you have to follow and believe it so, don't you?
Controversy, politics.... we are dealing here with very big egos involved.
What I have seen, in the practice, and found is that traditional hapkido (the one who is... as you have stated), is somehow different to "modern hapkido" (whatever that means).

You've said, that there are no "styles" of Hapkido. I agree with you in some way. For me, because of my kwan's background, the WHF, THIS is the true hapkido. Our SGM Myung (10th degree in WHF, direct student of Choi Yong Sul, no mather what the KHF or the SMHKD of master Ji, say), says there's no Hapkido Styles (Kuk Sool Won, Kuk Sool Hapkido, Hanmudo, TuKongMooSul, Hoi jeon Moo Sool, Hwa Rang Do, and many others.... the list is too long to complete in here), they are ALL Hapkido. They are only different Kwans or schools.

But in real life, actually structured learning and classes, in these different schools have different emphasis in each skill and are pretty different among them. I too agree, that most interpretations of Choi's art are inaccurate... but, who is one to tell or define the thin line that divides a kwan, a personal interpretation or a different style.

[Hyung]

If you have read Lee Joo Bang, founder of Hwa Rang Do, you'll notice that for him, HRD is not Hapkido. For master Suh, of Kuk Sool Won, KSW is not Hapkido (he stated: "Choi Yong Sul was a japanese martial arts master... and I am a Korean Martial arts master..." Ji Han Jae, has even said, that HE is the real DOJUNIM and inventor of Hapkido (how can someone invent a new style, as a gift to honour HIS own master: Choi????)... sorry for Sin Moo HKD practitioners in here, but this for me is nonsense. He also said he incorporated kicks from Taekkyon and weapons to Hapkido (he also said, he never saw master Choi, to handle weapons, and that he used to called his art as Yawara, and insisted Choi taught EXACTLY as he learned from Daito Ryu's Takeda).... Rim says, exactly the opposite. Ji has said, that the spin kick is HIS idea...when the HRD masters, had said it was invented in ancient Korea HRD warriors to take off down a soldier from his horse (as horses were scarce in Korea, and that's some of the theories why korean MA emphasize so many jumping and flying kicking techniques... because they were used against soldiers on horses). Controversy again....

Aikido and Hapkido, are written in Hanja (chinese letters) exactly. A little modification to Aikido's Ki (because modern sino-japanese characters are a little different). But, Aikido's founder, O sensei: Ueshiba Morihei, and Hapkido's founder, Dojunim: Ji Han Jae (as SMHKD had stated)... hey, then where's Choi???? where's Takeda??? Between Ji and Ueshiba, is a generational gap. What I truly believe, is that Choi, was Hapkido's founder, since the beginning. And that, he was proficient in many different weapons too. But is only my opinion... and neither you or me, were there to see what really had happen in those days. In the only english published interview to Choi Yong Sul in 1982 in the United States, he said Takeda himself taught him 3808 techniques. In this interview, Choi said that he was the only one who had learned all the complete art of Takeda Daito Ryu Aikijujutsu. Other sources, had said, that was Choi's intervention, that made Takeda to accept Ueshiba Morihei as his student. He also stated, he wanted his art to be called Hapkido.

Just take out the Hapkido part, from styles like KSW or HRD, and what else lefts???? Maybe some weapons, hard style techniques, and some derived from Sip pal ki, or chinese origin MA (like white crane, etc).

Now, the so called, "traditional" Hapkido... has to be different to modern Hapkido. Because, the techniques, need to evolve and to match the needs of modern times and circumstances to continue to be effective. Techniques that were considered effective in a geographically defined country and in a different period of time, may not be effective in these 21st century modern globabally mediated world. Example: many "traditional" Hapkido techniques are from the floor seated position. That is not very effective these days. I have seen some korean JKK HKD or KHF masters techniques (they are awesome), and some of them are a little different as we practice in our dojang (in standing, in emphasys, in kind of grabbing, in variations of the same technique... etc). Today's korean Hapkido, maybe is not direct lineage, because many of the first generation masters, went out of Korea. In Korea, they emphasize a lot in kicking techniques, in western world, these may not be so because, countries, peoples bodies and minds, and what is considered effectiveness may also be different.

Some direct lineage claimers say there were 3806 or so original Choi's techniques. WHF claims 3864 well defined techniques (and of course, also direct lineage from Choi). Hwa Rang Do, claims more than 4000 techniques.... who's gonna win then??? It is very difficult to say, what is Hapkido and what is not. Hapkido is also a korean interpretation of jiujitsu. Some chinese techniques (like eagle claw, shuai jiao, chin-na/qin-na, etc) have also many similar grappling/throwing techniques. Some argue, that Hapkido is a combination of aikido/jiujitsu and taekwondo... this can't be true, cause they are all contemporarily born. And there has been a lot of cross polinization.

There is no real truth. Truth is an artificial human invention from the "winner's" official view. It is a human construction or a personal view's interpretation about some scarce facts and some documentary bibliography or so. I guess, that between the old grand masters (some of them, R.I.P.), didn't had to argue about what was the real stuff... every body knew every one's background and what they did back in those old days where Hapkido was officially born. Among them, everybody knew and know, who they are.

Maybe Hapkido's complexity, and free (maybe a little chaotic) essence, makes it impossible to cover in just one umbrella. It is true martial art... made for war. Not an academically-university-degree curricular activity.

Just a few modest thoughts about one of the most theoretically structured and complex martial art of all, because, I am not an expert.

Best wishes.

[Bruce W Sims]

If I imagined CHOI Yong Sul coming back to Korea from Japan with a "sack full" of techniques, I would characterize what happened in the decades following his return in this way.

Choi opened his sack and started to pull things out. Other people took what Choi handed them and did various things with it-- sometimes close to and sometimes distant from what Choi had in mind. Sometimes Choi bought into these games and sometimes he distanced himself. We can't know what Choi taught at any given time and to any given person except by talking to that particular person. The only exception I know of is KIM Yun Sang who actually photgraphed and catelogued the techniques he was taught as Choi taught him and Lee beginning in the 1970-s. And we STILL don't know how different this is from what Choi first taught back in the late 1940-s. The result I see is, then, is a modern-day MA version of the Indian fable of the "Blind Men and the Elephant". FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

[American HKD]

If you have read Lee Joo Bang, founder of Hwa Rang Do, you'll notice that for him, HRD is not Hapkido. For master Suh, of Kuk Sool Won, KSW is not Hapkido (he stated: "Choi Yong Sul was a japanese martial arts master... and I am a Korean Martial arts master..." Ji Han Jae, has even said, that HE is the real DOJUNIM and inventor of Hapkido (how can someone invent a new style, as a gift to honour HIS own master: Choi????)... sorry for Sin Moo HKD practitioners in here, but this for me is nonsense. He also said he incorporated kicks from Taekkyon and weapons to Hapkido (he also said, he never saw master Choi, to handle weapons, and that he used to called his art as Yawara, and insisted Choi taught EXACTLY as he learned from Daito Ryu's Takeda).... Rim says, exactly the opposite. Ji has said, that the spin kick is HIS idea...when the HRD masters, had said it was invented in ancient Korea HRD warriors to take off down a soldier from his horse (as horses were scarce in Korea, and that's some of the theories why korean MA emphasize so many jumping and flying kicking techniques... because they were used against soldiers on horses). Controversy again....

Aikido and Hapkido, are written in Hanja (chinese letters) exactly. A little modification to Aikido's Ki (because modern sino-japanese characters are a little different). But, Aikido's founder, O sensei: Ueshiba Morihei, and Hapkido's founder, Dojunim: Ji Han Jae (as SMHKD had stated)... hey, then where's Choi???? where's Takeda??? Between Ji and Ueshiba, is a generational gap. What I truly believe, is that Choi, was Hapkido's founder, since the beginning. And that, he was proficient in many different weapons too. But is only my opinion... and neither you or me, were there to see what really had happen in those days. In the only english published interview to Choi Yong Sul in 1982 in the United States, he said Takeda himself taught him 3808 techniques. In this interview, Choi said that he was the only one who had learned all the complete art of Takeda Daito Ryu Aikijujutsu. Other sources, had said, that was Choi's intervention, that made Takeda to accept Ueshiba Morihei as his student. He also stated, he wanted his art to be called Hapkido.

Just take out the Hapkido part, from styles like KSW or HRD, and what else lefts???? Maybe some weapons, hard style techniques, and some derived from Sip pal ki, or chinese origin MA (like white crane, etc).

Now, the so called, "traditional" Hapkido... has to be different to modern Hapkido. Because, the techniques, need to evolve and to match the needs of modern times and circumstances to continue to be effective. Techniques that were considered effective in a geographically defined country and in a different period of time, may not be effective in these 21st century modern globabally mediated world. Example: many "traditional" Hapkido techniques are from the floor seated position. That is not very effective these days. I have seen some korean JKK HKD or KHF masters techniques (they are awesome), and some of them are a little different as we practice in our dojang (in standing, in emphasys, in kind of grabbing, in variations of the same technique... etc). Today's korean Hapkido, maybe is not direct lineage, because many of the first generation masters, went out of Korea. In Korea, they emphasize a lot in kicking techniques, in western world, these may not be so because, countries, peoples bodies and minds, and what is considered effectiveness may also be different.

Some direct lineage claimers say there were 3806 or so original Choi's techniques. WHF claims 3864 well defined techniques (and of course, also direct lineage from Choi). Hwa Rang Do, claims more than 4000 techniques.... who's gonna win then??? It is very difficult to say, what is Hapkido and what is not. Hapkido is also a korean interpretation of jiujitsu. Some chinese techniques (like eagle claw, shuai jiao, chin-na/qin-na, etc) have also many similar grappling/throwing techniques. Some argue, that Hapkido is a combination of aikido/jiujitsu and taekwondo... this can't be true, cause they are all contemporarily born. And there has been a lot of cross polinization.

There is no real truth. Truth is an artificial human invention from the "winner's" official view. It is a human construction or a personal view's interpretation about some scarce facts and some documentary bibliography or so. I guess, that between the old grand masters (some of them, R.I.P.), didn't had to argue about what was the real stuff... every body knew every one's background and what they did back in those old days where Hapkido was officially born. Among them, everybody knew and know, who they are.

Maybe Hapkido's complexity, and free (maybe a little chaotic) essence, makes it impossible to cover in just one umbrella. It is true martial art... made for war. Not an academically-university-degree curricular activity.

Just a few modest thoughts about one of the most theoretically structured and complex martial art of all, because, I am not an expert.

Best wishes.


True many Kwans of HKD are really all the same stuff more or less and one art etc...

Sinmoo on the other hand is as much mental/spiritual as it is physical and one may be familiar with many of the physical parts but not the mental/spiritual and therefore one can't claim to know Sinmoo at all.

Sinmoo is a different art because of this compared to Korean HKD which is mainly a physical art. Master Ji says plainly his earlier Korean students don't know Sinmoo and it is very very true.

The meditation, Ki development, mental teachings, breathing tech, Philosophy, integration of the spiritual with the mental and physical is something that requires a lot training and practice and doesn't come easy.

You shouldn't jump to your absolute conclusions when you are unaware of what Sinmoo really is. :)

[Hyung]

Ok... Profr. Rosenberg, I agree.
Master Ji philosophical conclusions, somehow, not principally, but many of them, came throw his years in prison in Korea.

At least, one sincere approach to Hapkido, from Sin Moo Hapkidoists, is that they do not claim as the TRUE HAPKIDO (NOT THE WATERED VERSION, BUT THE ORIGINAL AND DEADLY ART OF CHOI YONG SUL) as many other kwans claim; but as a different aspects of the spirit and mind, and of course, a different Dojunim: Ji Han Jae.

Ji, claims that these spiritual practices, he did not teach them back in Korea. And that korean hapkido lack of these practices. Maybe, something like what happened to Jiujitsu in Japan, became Judo and other styles, loosing their primitive and original ground techniques that were saved in BJJ (or at least, that's what the Gracies claim).

But somehow, there's not really an integrity even among Sin Moo Hapkido schools around the world.

When Master Ji passes away... all the korean root of Sin Moo Hapkido will be lost forever. Because, mainly, their mayor black belt degree masters, are not korean ascendent. If Ji dies, all of your mayor grandmasters will separate and become with time, different kwans.... and maybe different arts.

Two questions.... first, some of the Grandmasters of Hapkido, who are not in the Sin Moo Hapkido organization, that received the 9th degree directly from Master Ji, for example just to name one, Master He Young Kimm, founder of Hanmudo.... do they know these spiritual and mental integration systems that Sin Moo Hapkido claim?

Second, I have read about Master Ji's interviews and interesting opinions about Ki, and what is Sin Moo Hapkido. I'm not the one to question him, but I seriously doubt he received 9th degree directly by Choi... or did he? If he didn't, what was the maximum degree he had received from Choi Yong Sul?

Just some questions, not to offend anybody. I respect SMHKD. But I'm not into it. Best regards.

[American HKD]

True no one will ever be Master Ji, but no two people are ever a like. He left good teachings with many senior Sinmoo masters so I'm not worried about Sinmoo dying so fast.

In Sinmoo Master Ji judges people individually I can't say what Dr. Kimm knows or doesn't know but Master Ji's felt he's a 9th dan so he's a 9th dan.

I don't think Ji received a 9th Dan from Choi but Ji built upon Choi techniques and developed skills Choi never had so it doesn't matter what rank Choi gave him that's only a part of what Doju Ji developed and he is the founder of Sinmoo that's all that matters.

[Bruce W Sims]

Its not my intention to interfere with the discussion, however I think its important to point out that presently the same dynamic is occuring that often happens in many Hapkido discussions. What I see is that Hyung started with some pretty direct observations. What I see coming back from Stuart is more of the same "My teacher has special teachings" kind of response. By comparison, it may be worthwhile to take general observations and get down to specific differences where they occur. For instance, the issue of placing one's hands on the mat when executing some kicks is unique to SIN MU and is not found in other Hapkido arts. Another example might be to actually identify dietary injunctions that Ji espouses that other Hapkido leaders do not. Yet another example might be to point out that Ji is reputedly more liberal in accepting practitioners of other disciplines under his SIN MU umbrella than might be other organizations.

The point that I am working to make is that it may be of greater service to actually promote the discussion in terms of observed behaviors and fact rather than opinions and generalities. IMHO.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

[American HKD]

Its not my intention to interfere with the discussion, however I think its important to point out that presently the same dynamic is occuring that often happens in many Hapkido discussions. What I see is that Hyung started with some pretty direct observations. What I see coming back from Stuart is more of the same "My teacher has special teachings" kind of response. By comparison, it may be worthwhile to take general observations and get down to specific differences where they occur. For instance, the issue of placing one's hands on the mat when executing some kicks is unique to SIN MU and is not found in other Hapkido arts. Another example might be to actually identify dietary injunctions that Ji espouses that other Hapkido leaders do not. Yet another example might be to point out that Ji is reputedly more liberal in accepting practitioners of other disciplines under his SIN MU umbrella than might be other organizations.

The point that I am working to make is that it may be of greater service to actually promote the discussion in terms of observed behaviors and fact rather than opinions and generalities. IMHO.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

Bruce my intention is not to say Sinmoo is special or better than other HKD however it is my intent to say Sinmoo is different.

Hyung tried to pigeon hole all HKD as the same and it's not true.

Yes GM Ji will accept sincere people in Sinmoo, I don't think this is a bad thing at all.

[Hyung]

Its not my intention to interfere with the discussion, however I think its important to point out that presently the same dynamic is occuring that often happens in many Hapkido discussions. What I see is that Hyung started with some pretty direct observations. What I see coming back from Stuart is more of the same "My teacher has special teachings" kind of response. By comparison, it may be worthwhile to take general observations and get down to specific differences where they occur. For instance, the issue of placing one's hands on the mat when executing some kicks is unique to SIN MU and is not found in other Hapkido arts. Another example might be to actually identify dietary injunctions that Ji espouses that other Hapkido leaders do not. Yet another example might be to point out that Ji is reputedly more liberal in accepting practitioners of other disciplines under his SIN MU umbrella than might be other organizations.

The point that I am working to make is that it may be of greater service to actually promote the discussion in terms of observed behaviors and fact rather than opinions and generalities. IMHO.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

That's something I had read, on the interview to Master Ji, in Marc Tedeschi's Hapkido book.
Do you really think, KI power comes from adrenaline self controlled secretion after voluntarily vibrating your molar teeth with years of special breathing techniques? Maybe this can be neurologically studied by electrophysiological or hormonal tests.
Do you really think, eating chicken, will damage your lungs??
Do you all SMHKDoists have sexual abstination?
I am a certified board physician on Internal Medicine, with a subspecialty on Rheumatology/Immunology. I'd never had read about lung injury caused by eating chicken. Maybe I should ask a friend of mine, who actually just graduated in Critical Care and Respiratory Medicine (Pulmonology) at Cleveland Clinic. Or maybe, we should start a double blind/ placebo controlled study about lung injury and eating chicken....

Sorry for being ironic. But, those spiritual/mind differences, whatsoever, fall into the metaphysical area. In english... it's a matter of faith.

Best regards.

[Bruce W Sims]

Actually, Hyung, thats pretty much Hapkido in a nutshell. Fact is people follow this or that guy and hang on that person's every word because thats what they choose to do. As far as difference among the Hapkido arts the biggest differences I found depend on when a teacher studied with Choi (Early--Pre-1973; Late-- Post-1973) and whether the over-riding influence in their practice is more Chinese (Pre-Occupation) or more Japanese (Post-Occupation). Everything else is marketing and turf wars.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

[American HKD]

That's something I had read, on the interview to Master Ji, in Marc Tedeschi's Hapkido book.
Do you really think, KI power comes from adrenaline self controlled secretion after voluntarily vibrating your molar teeth with years of special breathing techniques? Maybe this can be neurologically studied by electrophysiological or hormonal tests.
Do you really think, eating chicken, will damage your lungs??
Do you all SMHKDoists have sexual abstination?
I am a certified board physician on Internal Medicine, with a subspecialty on Rheumatology/Immunology. I'd never had read about lung injury caused by eating chicken. Maybe I should ask a friend of mine, who actually just graduated in Critical Care and Respiratory Medicine (Pulmonology) at Cleveland Clinic. Or maybe, we should start a double blind/ placebo controlled study about lung injury and eating chicken....

Sorry for being ironic. But, those spiritual/mind differences, whatsoever, fall into the metaphysical area. In english... it's a matter of faith.

Best regards.

I can tell you're a western doctor.

Sinmoo's based on taoist principles that Asians used for 100s of years.

It's more like this:

In Asian medicine eating certain foods are bad for certain organs thus putting the body out of Ki balance (yin & yang) etc... When the body's out of balance it can't operate at 100%.

Sinmoo's philosophy is designed accordingly to keeping the body working in balance based on Asian thought.

Chicken is said by Taoists to be bad for the lungs as it relates to the Ki for the lungs you see, it doesn't mean if you eat chicken you'll get lung cancer or emphysema and die. :)

In Sinmoo and many Asian MA correct breathing is essential for health and Ki, power, etc... and if your lungs are not at 100% capacity you won't be able to develop properly.

This makes sense to me, in western science and medicine it probably doesn't but we are doing Asian MA that were developed by Asians according to their culture.

[Hyung]

Ok, again I agree with you.
I am indeed a western medicine physician.
But I'm not alien to eastern medicine. I am korean born. My mother's family side has had many ancient oriental medicine doctors.

Besides every thing you've said, it's ok.... but, believing in Ki, Um-Yang, Tao, etc... of oriental philosophy, is indeed a matter of faith. (Hey, I'm not saying I don't believe in Ki... they are just some things of Nature, that still Science can't approach, but let Science develop and in a no far future...maybe... who knows?).

And about western or eastern concepts.... hey, do you know the chinese letter for "adrenalin"? cause according to Ji, Ki energy is nothing more than adrenalin. If Sin Moo, is about Taoism and oriental philosophical views, what makes it so different that what Ji invented wasn't taught and is not known by the korean hapkidoists???

I'm not trying to go this conversation to other route.

But trying to unmask something that are just inconsistent in Ji's declarations.

Best regards.

[American HKD]

I believe Ji's trying to explain eastern thought in western terms.

He uses the example of a women being able to lift a car off her trapped baby with no training of any kind.

Its a goal in Sinmoo to be able to use the body like the women in a super human sense "at will" through Sinmoo training of mind-spirit-body. In order to become this super human you need to fine tune your complete being (see 9 rules of Sinmoo with detailed explanations)

Food-Water-Breathing-Ki exercises- Sex control-certain thought processes etc... all are the Taoist paths to reach these goals.

I don't have any scientific studies maybe you can research this, but we do have hundreds of years of Asian philosophy and known unexplainable super human feats to have some basis to strive for.

Is Sinmoo an unachievable ideal maybe, but MA is also something we all work to improve ourself and we can work for a lifetime and never reach perfection but it fun trying to get there.

[Hyung]

I believe Ji's trying to explain eastern thought in western terms.

He uses the example of a women being able to lift a car off her trapped baby with no training of any kind.

Its a goal in Sinmoo to be able to use the body like the women in a super human sense "at will" through Sinmoo training of mind-spirit-body. In order to become this super human you need to fine tune your complete being (see 9 rules of Sinmoo with detailed explanations)

Food-Water-Breathing-Ki exercises- Sex control-certain thought processes etc... all are the Taoist paths to reach these goals.

I don't have any scientific studies maybe you can research this, but we do have hundreds of years of Asian philosophy and known unexplainable super human feats to have some basis to strive for.

Is Sinmoo an unachievable ideal maybe, but MA is also something we all work to improve ourself and we can work for a lifetime and never reach perfection but it fun trying to get there.

Then... master Ji, invented nothing new.
Nothing that are unawared about, many oriental taoists/confucianists, martial artists and/or korean hapkidoists.

Maybe, he only ordered this principles in a certain new way, to make it his system approachable and reachable to many people of different backgrounds...but I'm just guessing.

Remember this forum's title? Differences between Hapkido and SMHKD.
You had answered my question about master Ji's approach, maybe trying to explain eastern concepts to western thinking. But you didn't answer my second question... what makes then Sin Moo Hapkido, Sin Moo Hapkido, that Hapkido lacks? This is the core of this forum. You have answered about taoist principles incorporated to Hapkido... as if Choi's didnt new them already (maybe he didnt, I am just guessing, cause, Choi was not an intellectual, not an educated man. He was a common people, a pig farmer). You have mentioned skills master Ji developed, that Choi never in his life had.

What are these then?

No more words. Thanks for answering. You know your stuff, Prof. Rosenberg.

[American HKD]

:)Then... master Ji, invented nothing new.
Nothing that are unawared about, many oriental taoists/confucianists, martial artists and/or korean hapkidoists.

Maybe, he only ordered this principles in a certain new way, to make it his system approachable and reachable to many people of different backgrounds...but I'm just guessing.

Yes something like that.

Remember this forum's title? Differences between Hapkido and SMHKD.
You had answered my question about master Ji's approach, maybe trying to explain eastern concepts to western thinking. But you didn't answer my second question... what makes then Sin Moo Hapkido, Sin Moo Hapkido, that Hapkido lacks? This is the core of this forum. You have answered about taoist principles incorporated to Hapkido... as if Choi's didnt new them already (maybe he didnt, I am just guessing, cause, Choi was not an intellectual, not an educated man. He was a common people, a pig farmer). You have mentioned skills master Ji developed, that Choi never in his life had.

What are these then?

They are:
Choi didn't have the kicking material Ji developed or the philosophy, Ji also developed more weapons in HKD like Long staff, scarf, long scarf, rope or belt, knife throwing, stone thowing, cane, there are also quite a few specialty techniques I'm not mentioning here Master Ji teaches, etc....

No more words. Thanks for answering. You know your stuff, Prof. Rosenberg.

Thanks

To sum up: Sinmoo has a lot of differences from other HKD systems.

Korean HKD dosen't teach the Philosophy and various, meditations, ki development, Taoist principles, etc... of Sinmoo as well as some of the above mention techniques unique to Sinmoo.

Sinmoo approach to techs. are also more straight line to the point no non-sense if you will then other Kwans (not many large circles) but I think Choi's material was also this way.

BTW Sinmoo kicking is more extensive than any other branch of HKD I've seen.

8 methods of the 25 basic plus specialty kicks.

Basic
Limping style
skipping style
Combos
Frog Style
right foot out
left foot out
Speicial Doubles
Specialty kicks

Sinmoo has a couple of weapons not found in other HDK styles.

I would say really say Sinmoo is a seperate style not just another Kwan of Korean HKD. This is why GM remaned his style instead of just continuing his Korean school called the Sung Mu Kwan when he came to the US.

Nice talking to you Hyung:)

[Bruce W Sims]

I don't want to get in the middle of anything. I have my own views on TCM and how it incorporates into Korean culture, so I leave that to itself. I comment here only to say that if a person is going to represent that they are advocating for some unique or arcane approach to wellness, I suggest that they have more than just a passing familiarity with the subject. For instance, I have done quite a bit of reading and research on TCM and using PAL DAN KUM as a cool down and training tool because of this. However, I would not make recommendations about diet, healing practices or changes in life-style. Now, I DO know some people who have experience and education in this area--- Chris (LaCava) here on this forum is one such person--- and would accept being guided by his background. In the case of JI Han Jae I would want to know much more about his formal training. In the Korean culture it is not uncommon for people to pass "folk medicine" among community and family members. Heck, in my own background, my grandmother was known thoughout the community as an accomplished folk remedist. But, I don't think that qualifies a person to teach or give advice. IMHO; YMMV.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

[American HKD]

I don't want to get in the middle of anything. I have my own views on TCM and how it incorporates into Korean culture, so I leave that to itself. I comment here only to say that if a person is going to represent that they are advocating for some unique or arcane approach to wellness, I suggest that they have more than just a passing familiarity with the subject. For instance, I have done quite a bit of reading and research on TCM and using PAL DAN KUM as a cool down and training tool because of this. However, I would not make recommendations about diet, healing practices or changes in life-style. Now, I DO know some people who have experience and education in this area--- Chris (LaCava) here on this forum is one such person--- and would accept being guided by his background. In the case of JI Han Jae I would want to know much more about his formal training. In the Korean culture it is not uncommon for people to pass "folk medicine" among community and family members. Heck, in my own background, my grandmother was known thoughout the community as an accomplished folk remedist. But, I don't think that qualifies a person to teach or give advice. IMHO; YMMV.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

Bruce,

This comment is not directed towards you it's general, it's pretty clear that most people outside of Sinmoo don't understand what the Philosophy's meant for.

#1. The nine rules is NOT for healing or medicine. I would put it on the same catagory as a M.D. telling you to stop smoking, don't drink, don't over eat, and exercise, think positively, be happy, etc....

#2. Next is medtation and Ki development come from learning from Taoist Lee and Grandma. No harm there for sure these things have been in Asian culture forever.

#3. Master Ji doesn't claim to be a certified Doctor or healer of some sort. He claims to provide good clean healthy advice for a good mental attitude, clean living, and strong healthy body.

I personally have seen nothing to indicate anything different then your own common sense would tell you other than it's presented as a philosophy in a holistic approach to Sinmoo HKD training.

[Hyung]

I love kicking.
I have it done since I was about 11 years old.
I have trained in TKD (what korean hasn't?), kickboxing, muay thai, and northern style kung fu. And of course, Hapkido.
There are many different styles and types of kicking, and I am interesting in everyone of them. Of course, I am no expert....
Maybe I should see more and research about these SMHKD variants of HKD kicking.

Peace.