crane claw gong

[God]

i'm totally confused.

are moving hard white crane gongs supposed to be slow, methodical? and is timing important or just the muscles you work?

i really can't figure out the "crane claw gong" this book is talking about

[David]

If it's a hard gong it's probably done to the unforced rhythm of your breath with your concentration on the area being trained (claw hand in this case?).

Perhaps you'll have whole-body stance-tension or just in the area worked where the rest of your ody is actively relaxed. I guess the book should tell you about that.

What book is it? YJW?

Rgds,
David

[dashao]

crane hard chi gong just a friendly warning i wouldnt solely learn such a thing from a book as you can do some serious damage its hard chi gong so you do less damage if anything goes wrong i suppose. just take it easy and consult a teacher of some knowledge for help. again dont mean to offend you just be careful thats all as books are good reference but arent teachers.

[God]

yeah, it's YJM.

i picked up this book because in the foreward and beginning of the hard qigong sections he emphasizes how it's possible to damage yourself if done improperly, and how hard and abstract it is to learn the art from a book. since he also wrote the best book ever, comprehensive applications of qin na, i figured he would outline the dangers and be pretty thorough. more importantly, he said he was reluctant to write a book on it for these factors, but finally decided he could do it in a satisfactory manner.

it's moving. i can't find the danger in this particular technique and dr. yang doesn't mention anything about it.

here, let me type up the whole paragraph...

"the purpose of crane claw gong is to train the grabbing power of the fingers. in this trainining, stand in horse stance while placing both of your hands beside your waist. next, twist your body to the left and inhale, while extending your right fist out and towards the left with the palm facing upward. Then, twist your body to the right and exhale while using the twisting power to circle your right arm and form your right hand into a crane craw [note, he doesn't explain what this is or offer any closeups...and the "craw" is not a typo on my part?], palm facing forward. Close the fingers knuckle by knuckle until the hand becomes a fist again and return it back to your wasit with the palm facing upward, as in the beginning posture. repeat the same process with your left hand."

this is excluding his notes on breathing while doing this excercise, qi circulation, and general moving hard qigong theory which is the chapter preceeding.

how can i avoid injury in this technique, specifically? how can i keep myself from becoming too yang?

i messed up iron board gong, i think i might have hurt my back, but at least now i know why...if i hurt myself on this, i wont' know why.

and it seems that the main source of damage for this would be still hard qigong, because there is actually the force of gravity acting on you, rather than your own muscles. i'm told your muscles are built in such a way that you can't MAKE them damage themselves......you have to have another force, like gravity.

anyway enough rambling.

thanks for the help!

[dashao]

ah yes i know that paticular one now, its one of the few chi gongs i can actually do due to the fact we do it in class every so often its cool. i think its a safe enough one as injurys go if you dont do it too often but anything is possible you probally could mess yourself up as for the crawing we tried it with a hiss sort of tiger claw thing that seemed to work but its pretty funny when we are all hissing and a new person walks in to check out the class.. he also mentions stuff about a time limit on them only so much a day i think or that could be jing.

about the too much yang side of things ask a good tai chi person but i reckon if you know any calming excercises getting the chi back down again use that if you know what your doing that is or what i am talking about.

i have that book aswell its cool but i am reading it slowly when i practice white crane which is not very often these days "sigh" i should really get back into it.

[David]

I have found that exercise on p17 of Analysis of Shaolin Chin Na. it is presented as a pure muscular gong and mentions no breathing. I've got pictures on p18...

Rgds,
David

[God]

i think since preforming chin na is not directly related to performing qigong it wouldn't mention breathing.

but it does mention it in my book....it's pretty basic..do reverse abdominal breathing and inhale as you thrust your fist out, exhale is you withdraw.

it doesn't mention any shouting.

there's so much it doesn't cover, i just have to know if i'm doing it "right" enough...

is it one continuous motion?
how far do i twist my body?
is it circular or triangular?
do withdraw my fingers as i withdraw my fist?
does it even matter?

all of these questions i was worried were the things that needed to be answered to keep my body in check.

for the most part, it seems that dr. yang has included moving hard qigong techniques which don't depend on gravity, so i think that he was true to his foreword.

but anyway...thank you all for your help!

[David]

is it one continuous motion?

It's split into two parts.
1. Extend hand and twist shoulder.
2. Bring arm back and extend again with a twist as your shoulders come back to square.

how far do i twist my body?
You twist so that you have the longest possible reach forward without bending your spine forwards. Basically rotate so that your active arm's shoulder is forward, though not so forward that it comes into the centreline.

is it circular or triangular?
It moves with circles and twisting (though at times it looks triangular from particular angles only)

do withdraw my fingers as i withdraw my fist?[b]
[/i]Can't remember. Will check later...[/i]

[b]does it even matter?
Yes. The correct method for these things lies somewhere between ineffectualness and harm. You should refine the motion you think you're going to train softly, get your questions answered and then experiment with greater intent and effort. There's plenty to learn about yourself and the style just moving softly.

Maybe I can email you a scan the photos, or something. Can you ask on a YJM website somewhere? I'd bet your life you can get hold of a video with all this stuff and loads more on it.

Rgds,
David

[dashao]

just one thing it is one continous movement in the end split up into parts but in practice one movement

yup ther is videos you can buy head on over to the ymaa site

www.ymaa.com to buy them or you could go to one of his schools and learn white crane or even a seminar he has a few on every now and then. especially on the crane chi gongs

[Marku]

Books should ONLY be used to check your techniques are correct(if you have a crap instructor) or how to improve your ALREADY learnt techniques from a qualified instructor. never LEARN techniques from a book. Because chances are you'll learn it wrong and injure yourself or whoever your trying it on. and you'd look like a complete idiot :-)

[YODA]

Originally posted by Marku
Books should ONLY used to check your techniques are correct or how to improve your ALREADY learnt techniques from a qualified instructor. never LEARN techniques from a book. Because chances are you'll learn it wrong and injure yourself or whoever your trying it on. and you'd look like a complete idiot :-)

Advising people on what is and isn't applicable to their training when you don't train martial arts yourself also makes you look a complete idiot :D

[Andy Murray]

Book Fu :D

[Sub zero]

LOL

But i do partly agree with marku.

I mean u could teach ur self something form a book but it would be hard to learn without a teacher.

[Marku]

i expected yoda to say something like that. lol. but it seemed like the right thing to say :D

[YODA]

I agree in essence with what Marku said too - I just question his motivation in saying it.

[God]

i strongly disagree. this debate has been brought up before; learning white crane from a book is an awful idea, but most martial arts aren't to the point where attempting to learn solely from a book will cause you to become paralyzed from the waste down and completely devoid of any knowledge of the particular art you chose. one 40 dollar book, after meditating on and studying it for 1 year will give you the equivalent of learning the same material in 7 months (assuming you have someone to spar with and practice with and hopefully a human source of guidance)...rushed, sloppy, incomplete...of course if the corresponding school charges 60 dollars a month, you save yourself 380 bucks....

unless you're asinine enough to consider yourself a master after reading "intro to aikido", , books are a great alternative for those who are not millionaires and tragically do not live in the middle of everywhere.

[God]

it's frustrating really. if anyone has a better cost-effective solution to learn this art, let me know.

[hwardo]

At the risk of inspiring wrath of white crane practitioners, it is my opinion that the hard chi gungs in SWC are dangerous and not worth the risks. Much of the power generation consists of vibratory breathing and it is lengendary for being very emotionally destructive.

Yang Jwing Ming, while obviously a first rate martial artist with an encyclopedic knowlege of CMA, often puts very dangerous chi cultivation techniques in his books. The problem is not that the stuff doesn't work, but rather that it can work too well, and if you don't have a teacher to correct imbalances, you can hurt yourself pretty badly.

In all honesty, if you don't have an instructor near you, I would refrain from trying to learn shaolin white crane.

Practicing chin na techniques out of a book will probably never hurt you (unless you mistakenly believe you have powers that you do not) but it may never benefit you either. Good luck either way.

[God]

i don't understand what makes them so dangerous.

please say yang imbalance, because i will simply work lightly and meditate greatly.

what is the danger?

a bit of a biological/anatomical/phisiological as opposed to chi explanation would be helpful...

thank you for all your help thus far too, i greatly appreciate it!

[hwardo]

It is hard to avoid chi in the explanation, because that is what makes it dangerous. Basically, you vibrate your chi causing your muscles and fascia to contract very rapidly devoloping a ton of power (usually in hand slaps.)

The danger lies in the chi getting stuck in your head-- in India, this is thought of as a premature kundalini awakening, and in China it is known as "qigong deviation syndrome." The symptoms can include hallucinations, involuntary emissions, and a host of physical problems. Mind you, this won't happen to everyone-- it is just a risk with this kind of gung. For more information, check out B.K. Frantzis's work-- he discusses it to some degree in the "power of internal martial arts."

[God]

thank you very much!

finally an answer that explains what's so dangerous. i assume the physical problems are local

thank you for the recomendation, i will see if i can find his stuff.

i really really appreciate your help, and finally, an answer!!!

will this book explain to me:
-why it ahppens from a skeptics point of view (bioelectric)
-examples/proof that it actually has happened
-ways to combat it?

now, i'm a firm believer that knowledge can be effectively communicated via communication and demonstration is only a catalyst, expedient. one last question: what is the nature of qi manifestation, if it isknown, that causes high speed muscle vibration, and how does improper technique manifest this sort of qi vibration? in what manner do hard qigong excercises and grand circulation benefit your body (biologically)...for example, how does the iron board gong strengthen your torso?

i'm mostly asking where i can FIND these answers...marrow/brain washing?

maybe it's my own OCD or pride, or maybe it's the practical limitations of attempting to learn this via an instructor, but i am thoroughly confident that if someone would just lay the answers on the table...say "this causes trembling chi, which is bad because...." instead of "this is dangerous...you could not possibly understand why"...say "move in a circular motion" rather than "more detail can be found by contacting your local school"...

blah, i couldn't bbabble anymore if i tried

[hwardo]

B.K. Frantzis is definately the real deal-- see "opening the energy gates of your body" for an in depth discussion of chi cultivation, its dangers, etc. "The Power of Internal Martial arts" has quite a bit of biographical info, and it is REALLY in depth, which is good, but a little daunting at first (at least in my experience.)

Yang Jwing Ming discusses bone marrow washing in a couple of his works, but his Yang Style Tai Chi Chuan dvd has some of the best info I have seen to date. Just be wary that the stuff he presents (Unlike B.K. Frantzis) can be exceedingly dangerous to do without a teacher.

Qi manifestation comes in a variety of forms. Usually, an individual begins by developing an awareness of their chi, then they work on creating a kind of circulation through their upper body called "the small heavenly orbit." Finally, you work on experiencing the opening and closing of the joints, the bone marrow, and the pumping of synovial fluid in your joints. Power can be created through vibration, or more effectively (as well as safely) spiraling power, which comes from a direct experience of the muscles. You develop a fine enough control to send a spiral of pumping (openings and closings of the fascia + pumping of fluid) energy from your root up through the point of impact. This is called "jing" power, and you can google it to see demonstrations.

Yang Jwing Ming has a bioelectric explanation for chi in the aforementioned dvd.

Finally, I would recommend Shambala publications' version of "the tai chi classics." Again, it won't necessarily be the best at-home instruction manual, but you will really get a chance to intellectually understand what is going on.

These are the different publications that helped demystify chi cultivation for me, but it was an amazing Hsing I teacher that helped me first start chi gung. I would recommend looking around your area a little-- they don't always have a MA school.

Cheers,
B

[David]

If chi was explained in terms of bio-electricity it would make more sense? I think not!

There are exercises which can affect your emotions. I remember something about a form in my style which will make you very short-tempered if practiced without other contrasting exercise being undertaken.

Chi is for the doing and not the thinking. There was a prime-time series on UK Channel 4 many years ago called "Stand Still, Be Fit" which was an introduction to Standing-like-a-tree qigong. The accompanying book and video is still available. That'd give you chi sensations. If something like that can get you to stop asking what chi really is then there is no hope. Train it now and try to mystify it with Scientific mumbo-jumbo when you're old and toothless.

Does JYM have a website or email?

Rgds,
David

[dashao]

cost effective solutions hhhmmmmm do you know any tai chi practitioners ?why not their friendly people get to know them and ask for knowledge on the chi gong side of things head on over to the tai chi forum. iron board gong if you do it the part that is in a geat deal of pain is being conditioned the stomach abs and not the back which means your doing it wrong.

that crane book has his view on chi i think something about his physics degree and experiments putting it down to bioelectricity does it not? i must read it again.

anything else trembling jing lets see what actual biological damage screws up your joints big time tennis elbow pops things out of place that sort of horrible stuff and the whole chi side stuff to do before and after your mind dont forget about that
;) chill out

[God]

i'm all too fascinated!

thank you so very much for all your help.

the essence of shaolin white crane is not a very comprehensive book in conclusion, considering it doesn't fullly delve into the techniques nor the theory...too bad.

i'll need to buy at least 10000 other books to get full understanding...or at least full knowledge

[dashao]

are book comprehensive can they be they can only have so many pages how can they encompass an entire art? good tread material me thinks

[hwardo]

In my opinion, books are never a substitute for a good teacher, and they can never comprehensively cover an entire movement from an art, much less the art itself. The reason for this is that they lack hands-on spot correction-- you can look at the right way to do something, but you can't necessarily feel the right way to do something.

That said, I tend to want to intellectually understand what I am doing, and I think that God feels the same way-- it is a matter of supplementing doing with research and thought. It has certainly enhanced my practice, and more importantly, it has given me incentive to keep working on it.

All in all, I think it's good to read as much about what you are interested in as you can, but don't let intellectual knowledge take the place of practice.

[David]

Yep, trying to understand arcane 'manuscripts' is a great way to spend your time :)

Rgds,
David