Bowing to the flag

[stump]

I suppose this follows on a little from the creed thread.

In some martial arts, mainly Taekwondo,students are expected to bow to the flag of the country where the art origonated. Personally I find this a strange tradition.

Could anyone tell me why this is done?

[pgm316]

How is that of any benefit to anyone!?

Tradition for traditions sake is pointless and a waste of time and effort. If it helps training then very good..........

[YODA]

I'm with you both on that one. I bet you don't see many Japanese Karateka bowing to the Okinawan flag!

http://www.crwflags.com/fotw/images/j/jp-47_50.gif

LOL!

[wayofthedragon]

I don't see any need in bowing to a flag either. I guess it's as pgm said, "tradition". I guess it's also to so a sense of respect to the place where you're style originated. That is all I can think of. It does nothing for the student, well, if anything, maybe it could give a student a sense of pride for what ever art he is studing, and a respect for where it originated. I mean, he is taking a part of that culture by training in that particular art right? Enough said on that. As for me, I don't think a student should "have to bow to a flag if he does not wish to. Not in America anyway.

[Chazz]

I can see that point that all of you are making. I am TKD and we do bow to our korean flag. To us we consider bowing like a hand shake or salute, depending on what we are bowing to. We bow to Masters, grandmasters, Black Belts, and Instructors as a salute in respect for their rank and position. TKD is a Korean Military art thats why we bow to salute. When we bow we dont bow to the FLAG but we bow to the FLAGS. The American and Korean Flags. We do this as a sign of respect and thanks for korea, the birth place of the art we CHOOSE to study and to the USA flag as a sign of love, honor, and respect of our home land.

"I bet you don't see many Japanese Karateka bowing to the Okinawan flag!"

Personally, if i study a form of shotokan that came from there, I would bow to it in honor of the people that it took for me to learn and study the art of shotokan

[Freeform]

Hmm, honor the birthplace of the art yes. But some schools try to make you pledge an oath. This is something I'm not very comfortable with.

[Chazz]

We do say a club oath as well and it doesnt bother me to sai it.

We as member train our spirit and body acording to a strict code
We as Members are united in mutual friendship
We as members will comply with regulations and obey instructors

I feel as if the students on our school cant try and live but that at least while in class, the either need to change an attitude or leave. Cause that oath say just what we believe. We are there to train our bodies, we are all friends in TKD and in the Martial arts and we should obey regulation and instructors.

Now i have seen some oaths that are kind of "out there" and a little strange though.

[Freeform]

Yeah, we had to say something in Korean and I think it was an oath to the country, but I'm not sure.

Thanx

[Spike]

I think an oath is soemthing that should never be taken lightly and if someone is forced to take one when they choose to train somewhere, then it`s meaningless

[Chazz]

True but you are not forced to be there, if you dont like it leave. If a little kid is being forced to be there he/she will act up untill they are no longer there.

[LilBunnyRabbit]

Its done as a symbol of respect to the martial art, and those who founded and teach it, as well as the origins.

The creed, oath, pledge and/or tenets at least give the instructor something where they can say 'Look, at the beginning of each class you say this, and then ignore it completely. I'm not going to teach you any more until you shape up.'

If you don't like the traditions take up something else, the traditions are an integral, but not essential part of the art. You can learn the art without the traditions (the techniques and principles anyway) but the pledge and tenets give a set behavioural code that you're expected to obey, and a reason why you shouldn't just go out and beat people for the fun of it.

[Chazz]

CKD
All i can say to your reply is amen brother. That is exactly what i am saying.

[Spike]

I didn`t make myself very clear. I didn`t mean forced in the strictest sense.
How many people will take the oath thinking "yeah, whatever"
It doesn`t make them a bad person but making them go through it is cheapening it

[LilBunnyRabbit]

If just one student takes it seriously, that's enough to make it worthwhile. The others are not cheapening the oath, they are cheapening themselves, and that's their lookou.

[Freeform]

Spikes correct, an oath should be something that a student chooses to do, it shouldn't just be an excersice in 'formality'.

If MA's are 'as open' as we all claim the student should have the oath explained to them in their own language and told only to recite it when they believe in it.

Damn me being the honorable type and all (ask the Edinburgh crew, I never break a promise, oh wait, thats cause I never make any ;) ).

[LilBunnyRabbit]

Ah, do you recite in the relevant language then?

Tends to be with Choi that we recite in English, the Americans in American, the Welsh in Welsh, and the Scots in that strange incomprehensible accent of theirs, so the pledge and tenets are in the language of the students.

[Spike]

Quote:

If just one student takes it seriously, that's enough to make it worthwhile.

If just one student takes it seriously, or any number for that matter, I suspect it`s not necessary to make them swear the oath. Someone sill do what they say or they won`t, calling it an oath or a promise or a blood bond or whatever is just nomenclature.

Quote:

the Welsh in Welsh, and the Scots in that strange incomprehensible accent of theirs,

It`s the Welsh that are incomprehensible, not the Scots, the Scots are just drunk.

[Greyghost]

hic!!!...who shed dat.....am not sas thunk as you drink i am.

Don't make promises you cant keep.

Don't make an oath your not willing to uphold.

Don't be a sheep. ( especially in wales)