help with Escrima (knife fighting!)

[versatilefightR]

does escrima or phillipino martial arts teach all the aspects of knife fighting? of course there is attack, but what about if someone is sticking a knife behind you or on your neck. is escrima a full knife martial arts with offensive and defensive? or is it just offensive knife work. plz help!

[littlebird]

Knife work appears everywhere.

You are lucky. I think Valsiliev is somewhere up near you. I believe Ontario.
www.russianmartialart.com

"Russian Martial Arts" They do lots of knife work. Have videos on it.
This is "old school" for them.



Inosanto does it. I just saw something on it, but the video didn't have knife in it.

Everyone does it in some context.

FMA too.

Try the Russians first: "The System" (Systema Russkovo Boevogo Iskustvo)

People in the Martial Arts, myself included, like to play with spears, swords, shafts, and various things because it looks good. There is a lot more knife play in the real world.http://www.alliancemartialarts.com/Knife%20dis%20Trev.jpg

[krys]

is escrima a full knife martial arts with offensive and defensive? or is it just offensive knife work. plz help!

Escrima-Arnis-Silat and other filipino martial arts teach you to fight with/against weapons...

If you want to be able to defend yourself against a knive fighter you must know how to fight with a knive, that's why you need offensive training... Too many ma teach knive defenses that won't work because they don't train in knive fighting and have no idea of the nature of this kind of fight.....

Systema and ROSS are also very good arts... I don't know of any filipino grandmasters in Canada, if you don't find one go for Vladimir Vasiliev......

[Matt_Bernius]

Yes, Kali, escrima and most weapons based arts cover all aspects of training including unarmed self defense. But you have to understand that the Filipino mindset is that even when you're defending it's offensive. Outwardly the techniques seem defensive, but it's all about attacking and stopping the person who is attacking you. You can't mess around with weapons. Period.

Another art to check out in the Toronto area is Kali De Leon. Guro Jun is one of the top instructors in this part of the world. His website is: http://www.kalideleon.com/

And his Toronto school is located at:
The Royal Canadian Legion
9 Dawes Road, Toronto, Ontario

Hope this helps,

- Matt

[versatilefightR]

isnt kali stick fighting? where's the knife fighting!

[pesilat]

Originally posted by versatilefightR
isnt kali stick fighting? where's the knife fighting!

Many Filipino systems (whether you call them Kali, Arnis, or Eskrima) are blade based but start with stick work. The stick is used as a training tool and blade work is reserved for later - after some of the basics are developed and after the instructor feels he/she can trust you with blade knowledge. Some Filipino systems are more stick oriented. Some are even more empty hand oriented. But the majority of them are blade oriented - even if you start with a stick.

The sticks are what most people see when they see FMA. Consequently, they think that the FMA is just stick work. That's like looking at a Yugo and thinking that all cars are Yugos.

The FMA (overall - it varies some from system to system) are incredibly well-rounded. Each system has its own specialty, of course. But generally, they tend to cover all ranges (to one extent or another), a variety of weapons (and, further, a conceptual development so that anything you pick up becomes a weapon), and empty hands, too.

Mike

[versatilefightR]

I've considered russian martial arts, but I'd only take it for the knife work, I prefer all my combat training to be in muay thai, but I guess having more knowledge = good... and that Russian instructor is amazing at what he does, I'm going to consider going there, its close to home too :D

[Matt_Bernius]

Originally posted by pesilat
Many Filipino systems (whether you call them Kali, Arnis, or Eskrima) are blade based but start with stick work. The stick is used as a training tool and blade work is reserved for later - after some of the basics are developed and after the instructor feels he/she can trust you with blade knowledge. Some Filipino systems are more stick oriented. Some are even more empty hand oriented. But the majority of them are blade oriented - even if you start with a stick.

The sticks are what most people see when they see FMA. Consequently, they think that the FMA is just stick work. That's like looking at a Yugo and thinking that all cars are Yugos.

The FMA (overall - it varies some from system to system) are incredibly well-rounded. Each system has its own specialty, of course. But generally, they tend to cover all ranges (to one extent or another), a variety of weapons (and, further, a conceptual development so that anything you pick up becomes a weapon), and empty hands, too.

Mike I agree 100%. And Kali De Leon is a blade art. Also Jun teaches aspects of Pekiti Tirsia Kali (which roughly translates as "how to chop things into peices at close quarters"). Any traditional Filipino martial art is Blade based. In fact movies like "The Hunted" use Filipino techniques for all the knife fights. That the stick teaches is a concept. Most stick movements translate immediately into sword and knife AND empty hand. Like Mike said these are extremely complete systems!

Originally posted by versatilefightR
I've considered russian martial arts, but I'd only take it for the knife work, I prefer all my combat training to be in muay thai, but I guess having more knowledge = good... and that Russian instructor is amazing at what he does, I'm going to consider going there, its close to home too :D

Systma is supposed to be an awesome system. But if you're looking for specificially knife/weapons work, I would suggest you look at any Filipino schools in your area. They will probably be much for "laser focused" on weapons.

Basically you should visit all the schools in your area and see what they do. As well as we can try to represent them on a board like this, you really need to see and talk with an instructor first.

Good luck in your search,

- Matt

[pesilat]

Originally posted by versatilefightR
I've considered russian martial arts, but I'd only take it for the knife work, I prefer all my combat training to be in muay thai, but I guess having more knowledge = good... and that Russian instructor is amazing at what he does, I'm going to consider going there, its close to home too :D

But Muy Thai doesn't deal with weapons. If you want to stick to Thai arts while also expanding your knowledge base, you might look into Krabi Krabong.

Mike

[krys]

The russian empty hands are also pretty good... if Mr. Vasilief was teaching close to my place I would enroll...

By the way besides FMAs I also train in ROSS (other russian martial art), my training partner does systema , actually I've discovered both systems have lot in common with some filipino martial arts.

[versatilefightR]

man im so confused, maybe i should stick to the FMA if i want just knife defense... but i saw some video clips on the russian site and they have knife defense + takedowns and such... help!

[krys]

You should try both arts... if i were you I would
check all the places and choose the gym where the instructor seems to be more helpfull...
All the peoples I met told me Mr. Vasiliev is a great teacher, martial artist, and fighter....
Coming back to empty hands back in France there is a student of Mr. Vasiliev who tained in Toronto.... this guy often let prospective students fight with him, many of the enrolees have m.t. backgrounds....

[pesilat]

Originally posted by versatilefightR
man im so confused, maybe i should stick to the FMA if i want just knife defense... but i saw some video clips on the russian site and they have knife defense + takedowns and such... help!

You'll find knife defense & takedowns & such in FMA, too. As krys pointed out, there are a lot of similarities between the RMA and FMA. But, then, there are a lot of similarities (at a conceptual level) between nearly everything and nearly everything else ;) - just to confuse you even more.

For instance, Yaw Yan (at least what little I've seen of it) is a Filipino art that looks a lot like Muy Thai.

But anyway, I agree with krys. Check out all the schools in your area and see if any of them are what you're looking for. Ask specifically about knife defense. Using a knife is usually not taught until later but empty hand defenses against a knife are often taught pretty early on and you may be able to find training in just them in private lessons with someone.

Mike

[juramentado]

just to add to what the others have said:

The idea of FMA being "stick fighting" stems from the mistaken notion that the sticks were the weapons of choice. Yes, they are weapons, but Philippine martial culture is blade oriented. The sticks are just there as training tools.

Much like the Japanese bokken, the sticks can be used as weapons and have their own lethality. But remember that FMA is and will always be based on blades. Some styles may be more stick or blade oriented then others, but the root of everything is the same.

In FMA in general, and in pekiti tirsia in particular, takedowns with knives are taught as part of the system. But I think you should understand that knife fighting is complex and multi faceted, everything from jabs at distance to parrying and checking up close. The takedowns are just one aspect and although I do like them (they are very brutal and great to practice), I consider them as just another skill to know. Don't fall in love with them coz there's just so much more to learn.

I've had the priviledge of attending a seminar by Guro Jun De Leon and he's one of the best. His back to basics approach to training is refreshing and he has the skills to show for them. You'd be fortunate to be able to train under him.

[punong_guro]

Originally posted by versatilefightR
man im so confused, maybe i should stick to the FMA if i want just knife defense... but i saw some video clips on the russian site and they have knife defense + takedowns and such... help! i can't speak for all systems of FMA but i can speak for ours and in ours we start with the single stick then double then stick and knife then single knife then double knife all the while we are learnig these weapons we are also learning panantuken and pananjakmen (boxing ,kicking)combining the traping learned with weapons first then empty hands. the main reason we train with the stick even though it is a great weapon is to develop our attributes for instance if you are doing say the box drill and you get used to a stick flyn at you at 90mphthe fastest punch seems slow plus it familiarizes you with the lines and angles of attack in essence FMA is a complete well rounded fighting art not just stick fighting oh and hi to all hows that for an intro lmao:D

[Airyu]

Hello Everyone,

Great replies from everyone! Versatilefighter, like most types of martial arts, Filipino Martial arts cover a variety of techniques and various types of weapons. Most common are the Stick (various lengths), Machete (various types), Knife, staff, and some flexible weapons. You will find that each art you practice has it's own "flavor", but go out and try them all first hand. This is the only way you will ever be able to find the art you find most suitable to your personality.

Gumagalang
Guro Steve L.

www.Sayoc.com
www.Bujinkandojo.net

[shuyun3]

one of the best thing i like about FMA is something i'd like to call weapons abstraction. anything is a weapon and in a fight you improvise a weapon first.

Never fight in the same terms as the opponent. In a street fight always get an edge over your opponent. In FMA the practioner does not drop into stance and kiais for effect. You'd probably take the pen from your pocket whistle while you're at it and jab the poor sap with it.

No muss no fuss. No supermen. Just in your face street fighting.

It was made for war not for show.

[Gryphon Hall]

Training with sticks actually makes bladework more effective. The downside with training with blade-looking weapons is that one trains with the assumption that the blade is sharp, with the strikes cutting. But with sticks, one trains with the assumption of a blunt weapon, a club. Translate that to actual blades, and you end up really chopping strongly.

Training with sticks also gives you the proper mindset about defense. There are a lot of people (I among them once before) who would train with blunted blades, then get shocked when a strong opponent does a disarm. But with sticks, you are trained to learn to meet the weapon in such a way as to minimize shock, and then chamber for countering.

As far as I know, there are a lot of different FMA knife fighting systems, but its all just a matter of style; they are all effective, one way or another. Just very brutal, that's why I haven't trained in it for a while. I'm not in shape.

Because for a knife fight, one has to be in shape. If anyone tells you that no matter how small you are, if you use this style or system you will always win, then that person is lying, or doesn't know what he is saying. What is good about FMA knife fighting is that the focus is to survive the knife attack. What if you are able to make a nice, fatal, beautiful stab at your opponent, but he was strong enough to bear you down and get his own blade in? With a longer weapon, things are more equal; but with a knife, no matter how great, it is toe to toe, and sometimes size does matter. And opportunity.

Imagine being that American GI in Saving Private Ryan, where he draws a knife on a German, but it gets turned on him. That's how it frighteningly is, and sometimes the effective skills one so carefully trains in and would in any other circumstances would work, now means diddly squat.

Be in shape, my friend.

Pax.

[shootodog]

some kali systems use live blade for sensitivity and alertness. some schools even go to the extent of blunting real balisongs to be used as training knives.

[ptkali778]

dude..have you seen the movie "the hunted"? they used sayoc kali in that movie for all the knife fighting scenes....anyways if you're interested in FMA or jus knife fighting...check sayoc.com....there's a school somewhere in toronto that teaches sayoc. have fun!

[Airyu]

Following up on PtKali778's post,

In Toronto contact Guro Joe Apostol at joeapostol@Sayoc.com, great guy and teacher!

Gumagalang
Guro Steve L.

www.Bujinkandojo.net

[juramentado]

ptkali778, are you connected with Loki Jorgenson, the Pekiti Tirsia instructor in BC? if not, what PTK group are you connected with?

[ptkali778]

juramentado...yup loki jorgenson is my guro for pekiti tirsia and silat....do you know him?

[juramentado]

I've heard of him. I'm also a Pekiti Tirsia student, studying under Guro Rommel Tortal and Tuhon Leo Gaje here in Manila.

[master35]

moderator what belt r u?

[Bayani]

Please only asking a question to discuss so as to educate and settle a question in my head but not to take disrespectfully.With knife fighting...do you believe in simplicity? The keep it simple attitude? I'm inquiring this because I was looking at Aryiu 's link to sayoc kali. Maybe you can enlighten me with some things . I read some of the articles and was quite impressed with the very indepth information. Saw some of the pre set drills beautiful to watch then when I came upon the 13 ways is it? Of holding a knife, that's when it hit me? It seems that this system has expanded into a very complex and not simplified way of teaching. Too much info leads to overload. I remember one of the manongs..The LAte Tatang Ilustrisimo when he explained this .."Alam mo ang pinaka simpleng tama sa beginer? ito ..pak.(Do you know what is the most simple strike in basic? This -) He did a simple forehand downward diagonal strike or angle one in most systems., Alam mo ano ang pinaka advanced na tama? Ito din! (do you know what is the most advanced strike? This one too! ) same motion.
There are two basic ways to hold a knife.. one is the over hand, hammer grip or saksak. and the other is under hand, ice pick grip or pakal. To count every variation of this would not be leading away from simplification. Another is the analogy of the responses...right response ,reflexive response.., uhmm sorry I don't know the rest or can't remember them but here proves my point. I guess from my understanding of what I found works with weapons and strike Military upbringning..simplicity goes a long way. Or maybe this system is to deep for my shallow mind? The pre set drills are beautiful to watch, the templates is it? But both combatans are right in front of each other and I know knife fights don't happen this way..but when they spar does it resemble anything like the drills? Brings to mind what a wise Manong said to me.."pwede bang gawin? Oo pwede pero dapat ba? " -Can you do it? of course you can but should you? Please share your insight so I may understand what I am missing?

Thanks for your time.

[shootodog]

Please only asking a question to discuss so as to educate and settle a question in my head but not to take disrespectfully.With knife fighting...do you believe in simplicity? The keep it simple attitude? I'm inquiring this because I was looking at Aryiu 's link to sayoc kali. Maybe you can enlighten me with some things . I read some of the articles and was quite impressed with the very indepth information. Saw some of the pre set drills beautiful to watch then when I came upon the 13 ways is it? Of holding a knife, that's when it hit me? It seems that this system has expanded into a very complex and not simplified way of teaching. Too much info leads to overload. I remember one of the manongs..The LAte Tatang Ilustrisimo when he explained this .."Alam mo ang pinaka simpleng tama sa beginer? ito ..pak.(Do you know what is the most simple strike in basic? This -) He did a simple forehand downward diagonal strike or angle one in most systems., Alam mo ano ang pinaka advanced na tama? Ito din! (do you know what is the most advanced strike? This one too! ) same motion.
There are two basic ways to hold a knife.. one is the over hand, hammer grip or saksak. and the other is under hand, ice pick grip or pakal. To count every variation of this would not be leading away from simplification. Another is the analogy of the responses...right response ,reflexive response.., uhmm sorry I don't know the rest or can't remember them but here proves my point. I guess from my understanding of what I found works with weapons and strike Military upbringning..simplicity goes a long way. Or maybe this system is to deep for my shallow mind? The pre set drills are beautiful to watch, the templates is it? But both combatans are right in front of each other and I know knife fights don't happen this way..but when they spar does it resemble anything like the drills? Brings to mind what a wise Manong said to me.."pwede bang gawin? Oo pwede pero dapat ba? " -Can you do it? of course you can but should you? Please share your insight so I may understand what I am missing?

Thanks for your time.

i too subscribe to what guro jun (de leon of kdl) says- what works is the best.

[ptkali778]

juramentado...you're lucky you get to train with grand tuhon leo gaje, i envy you! Bout a few weeks ago mandala tuhon phillip gelinas was over in b.c, for a 2 day seminar.....that's kinda cool! how long have you been a pekiti tirsia student?

[master35]

juramentado what belt r u in pekiti?

[shootodog]

juramentado what belt r u in pekiti?

pikiti has belts??? :eek: :eek: :eek:

[Silentblade]

There are no belts in Pekiti-Tirsia. There are ranks though, but only instructor ranks. You know... Guro, Agalon, Tuhon, etc. No Datu rank, thank God. :D

[Gryphon Hall]

Please only asking a question to discuss so as to educate and settle a question in my head but not to take disrespectfully.With knife fighting...do you believe in simplicity? The keep it simple attitude? I'm inquiring this because I was looking at Aryiu 's link to sayoc kali. Maybe you can enlighten me with some things . I read some of the articles and was quite impressed with the very indepth information. Saw some of the pre set drills beautiful to watch then when I came upon the 13 ways is it? Of holding a knife, that's when it hit me? It seems that this system has expanded into a very complex and not simplified way of teaching. Too much info leads to overload. I remember one of the manongs..The LAte Tatang Ilustrisimo when he explained this .."Alam mo ang pinaka simpleng tama sa beginer? ito ..pak.(Do you know what is the most simple strike in basic? This -) He did a simple forehand downward diagonal strike or angle one in most systems., Alam mo ano ang pinaka advanced na tama? Ito din! (do you know what is the most advanced strike? This one too! ) same motion.
There are two basic ways to hold a knife.. one is the over hand, hammer grip or saksak. and the other is under hand, ice pick grip or pakal. To count every variation of this would not be leading away from simplification. Another is the analogy of the responses...right response ,reflexive response.., uhmm sorry I don't know the rest or can't remember them but here proves my point. I guess from my understanding of what I found works with weapons and strike Military upbringning..simplicity goes a long way. Or maybe this system is to deep for my shallow mind? The pre set drills are beautiful to watch, the templates is it? But both combatans are right in front of each other and I know knife fights don't happen this way..but when they spar does it resemble anything like the drills? Brings to mind what a wise Manong said to me.."pwede bang gawin? Oo pwede pero dapat ba? " -Can you do it? of course you can but should you? Please share your insight so I may understand what I am missing?

Thanks for your time.
No, man! You are absolutely right. Sometimes the simplest technique, no matter how basic and no matter how un-secret it is will still win the day. I remember when I was in college and I had a friendly match with a western fencing exponent. Hayan, I was doing some of those fancy twirly arnis techniques and I did get a few hits in, pero it would also get me hit as well. Later, I got tired and did banda y banda the rest of the night. Would you believe, I kept hitting him everytime on the return stroke no matter what technique he pulled and I didn't get hit afterwards. Galing! It has since then become my favorite technique.

My bro, on the other hand, would always do Single Sinawali number 1 to try and end the fight as soon as possible. Thing is, even in friendly sparring, he could do the same thing over and over again and it works.

Maybe that's the reason why in Arnis or Escrima, the first techniques taught are usually the ones that can be used right away.

Cool. :D

[juramentado]

juramentado what belt r u in pekiti?

There are no belts in Pekiti. I've been practicing more than a year already...so I guess that makes me a "white belt" LOL

[master35]

what does LOL mean?

do you have turnaments in pekiti?

[shootodog]

what does LOL mean?

do you have turnaments in pekiti?

lol= laugh out loud

pikiti tournaments= yes. battle of kali being one of them.

[pepe]

pikiti tournaments


i thought its Pekiti with an E. pls correct this or i'll tell Tuhon Gaje ;)

[master35]

lol= laugh out loud

pikiti tournaments= yes. battle of kali being one of them.
pardon my ignorance sirs but what is different from kali from arnis de mano and from pekiti? :)

[Bayani]

That is the most debated question done over and over without any real firm answers just personal meanings attached to the terminologies used.

Kali-numerous meanings dependent on the system that is using it. the problem is that it is not a common term to Most of the pilipinos. I say most becausee there are some that are familiar with this but more so not the norm.

Some meanings:
Kalis-blade
Kali-the hindu goddess and our ties to the Madjapahit empire
Ka-li short for Katawan and lihok meaning body movement.
Ka- is a very common pre fix fo most of our terms. Kalibogan (lust):love: , kapatid (brother), kayamanan (riches) and so on so to say ka-li is not part of our language is open for debate.
Kali as related to some festivals and areas -kalikalihan, kalibo, pangkali kali
It was mentioned in Pacido yambao's book about Arnis.
Some examples of systems using Kali:
Some will say that kali leans toward more blade oriented styles like Pekiti tirsia of Tuhon Leo Gaje who did the survivng edge weapons used by most Law Enforcement agencies .
Pikit (close) Tirsia (quarter) too cut up in close quarters. Kalis ilustrisomo or kali Ilustrisimo Tatang always equated his teachings to baldes not sticks.
Sayoc Kali- knife work more prevalent, used int he movie "the Hunted" -Head of the system, Chris Sayoc also studied under Tuhon Gaje of Pekiti .
other notable systems, kali de Leon there are numerous systems.

Arnis de mano- taken from the word arnes , the harnes of the hands..
Arnis is the most common term used in the Phlippines and recognized by Pilipinos. Most Visayan systems use arnis. "If Kali is to blade Arnis is to sticks" , Just a common term but not neccessarily true as all FMa deals with both types of weapons Impact or edged. But the quote may have been taken from most misconceptions by Pilipinos that arnis is about stickfighting only.
Arnis de mano-(emptyhands vs weapons or emptyhands vs emptyhands portion of Arnis. Once again Mano (hands). Some systems use Arnis de mano but teach the whole spectrum of weapons and emptyhands.

Eskrima- Spanish deriviation -skirmish. Also you will find Egskrima, from european fencing etc. Still FMA weapons.

You may take note that systems have changed their names by dropping the Arns for Kali or adding Kali to their family names.

all in all it's just terminologies that don't mean a thing except confuse people. What is writen above is a compilation of notes taken or impression from years of reading exhaustive dabates similar to "which came first the chicken or the egg?" Also we tend to categorize things in one word. Like using a brand name to cover all others. Like
colgate for toothpaste, coke for soda etc.

I tend to appreciate the similarties rather than the differences of FMA systems .
To me what's important is the substance of what is taught , not the name.

[mdz81]

Eskrima- Spanish deriviation -skirmish. Also you will find Egskrima, from european fencing etc. Still FMA weapons.

Uncorrect afirmation, Eskrima comes from "Esgrima", fencing in spanish. The verb "esgrimar" in spanish means (apart from the fencing meaning) use something for defense.

Cheers.

[Bayani]

Thanks for the clarification , there are other terms close to the words Eskrima too but I don't recall what language or word. Nonetheless the Spanish influence is intertwined most especially in Espada Y daga (sword and dagger) portions of FMA.