[Choi Kwang Do] Customer Feedback Protocol

[lawman]

One of the aspects of CKD which I have noticed, is the attempts to operate in a very modern and professional manner.

On many aspects I would agree that the perception from an external view is very professional.

Building on this intention, the more successful and professional organisations in other spheres of activity have a protocol to provide feedback from the ground level to the upper management.

In this respect, CKD is currently lacking.

There doesn't seem to exist an avenue for clients (students and other interested parties) to provide feedback on their experience of the good and bad aspects of CKD to upper management (The Atlanta team).

Whilst a student can always discuss an issue with his/her instructor, they are effectively middle management and would not likely have the control to amend issues which they might wish considered themselves.

As such a route directly to upper management is a beneficial tool if upper management do not wish to eventually become what all organisations and even governments become when they ignore the ground level opinions, namely, redundant and eventually extinct.

The best route for this would be by way of the internet, with customer feedback forms, relating to different aspects of CKD.

Additionally, some type of internet voting system on polls and subjects which are more popular. These should be viewable by anyone accessing the site, so not limited to current clients only, but also potential ones.

If the CKD staffing is adequate, then a response to the feedback is standard practise in the better prepared organisations.

Areas of feedback/complaint/comment/suggestion can range from issues relating to adminstration, training, syllabus or whatever.

An example is when one student eventually got his membership card and after accepting murmured to me that it took over 6 months to get it. I note that I have still not recieved mine, hence this issue has not been resolved or probably even heard by upper management.

Another is the numerous posts on this forum. From weapons requests, to grappling or discussion on other subjects.

Although many requests are made, and indeed, often CKD instructors agree on the apparent inadequacies, the state of CKD does not appear to change, from ground level, in any respect.

One that I would personally like to request is that the CKD syllabus is published for potential students to consider. This need not be the instruction on the subject, but all of the topics to be covered, at each level and the examination requirements to pass to a higher grade.

On discussing this particular issue with my instructor, I was told that once we recieve the membership details and PIN to access the CKD website, we can see our syllabus for our grade only.

However, when one takes a degree or any course in a university; they always consider the details of the syllabus prior studying it. It is a basic necessity for a good student to know what they will study.

I recently went to a Ishin Ryu Jujitsu class (http://www.ishinryu.com), when upon asking for details of their syllabus, I was presented with the full details from white belt up to black belt in a very clear and detailed manner.

From that, a potential student could easily consider whether they wish to study that particular subject/art and what they would obtain from it.

It was apparent to me that this particular jujitsu style was very comprehensive in it's topics learnt from strikes, grappling, weapons to internal and close protection training.

The exam for black belt was also clear, which took 2 days to complete with a 12 mile jog, followed by 1/2 mile swim with 8 hours in the dojo completing several requirements and getting kicked in the testicles (this is where the chi training helps!).

None of this is clear for a potential student in CKD or even a current one, as no syllabus is available to them.

If anybody on this forum has any influence with upper management, I shall be grateful if they could discuss incorporating a protocol as discussed above.

[amiller127]

Nice and simple this one.

If you have any comments on CKD or would like to put your point of view accross then im sure that you could send an e mail too

CKD@Choikwangdo.com

Or even

wadegreen@choikwangdo.com

They will get to Master Pereira and If you address them for the attention of GMC, then he will get a copy.

CKDMAI like to have feedback from students. At the end of the day we wouldnt be able to have a class without our students so we do try to take into account your opinions. Cant guarentee that we will implement some of the things you want, but im sure if enough wrote in asking for specific things they would surely consider incorporating it where possible. Apart from Sparring

:D

You may not get a reply. I know that head office is very busy and even instructors dont always get a reply. But everything you send is read and considered.

As for memberships. The cards are processed in Atlanta. There are 70 + school in the UK alone processing membership details each month. Imagine how many the hq gets for the entire world. There are the occasional mess ups and they can sometimes take a very long time to get back, but it is improving there. I have noticed that they are getting a lot more efficient at processing things now and the waiting time has dropped dramatically.

Instructors can now process new members and gradings online. The new students is activated immeadiatly and the instructor can get your pin and membership number straight away. So the only reason that you should have any delay with membership details and access to the database is if there has been an error, or if the instructor hasnt been able to process them.

Hope that helps

[morphus]

The exam for black belt was also clear, which took 2 days to complete with a 12 mile jog, followed by 1/2 mile swim with 8 hours in the dojo completing several requirements and getting kicked in the testicles (this is where the chi training helps!).

Do you think this helps recruit students - i got to admit i would be put off by what is said you have to in the future - however if you don't know what lies ahead you may be to handle it if fed info' & trained until ready to move on to the next level - if it get too hard you can always quit - but once you get so far in a syllibus you may not want to quit being determined to see it through as it only another step.
So do you put students off by publicing everything or build a students confidence by making smaller steps seem achievable?

Just a thought.

[Shade]

I've been learning/studying/practicing CKD for about 6 weeks now and got my membership card yesterday.

To be honest, if i never got one it wouldn't stop me wanting to go to my class....it's just a piece of laminated card and doesnt help me defend myself (well maybe against someone with a laminated card alergy?).

As for seeing the syllabus in advance, obviously some people would like to and some aren't worried. I fall into the latter category. I guess it would be interesting to see what is in store for the future, but two things immediately spring to mind here.

1. there could be some poeple who might get carried away and start trying to practice patterns that are more advanced than their current belt, which would probably mean they learn the moves wrongly with the result of actually hindering their advancement.

2. buy the CKD book (is it out yet?) and read it as I understand it is all in there.

As for feedback, as my learned friend says above, you could always email HQ (or even phone them as the number is on the main website). I think from memory they actually say you are welcome to contact to discuss anything etc.

[morphus]

The book is not out yet - & to be honest no-one outside The HQ seems to know exactly what is going to be in the book. I feel that there is no way they could put everything in there - His life story, how he eventually came up with CKD AND technical details & evaluations? i can't see it but ...i s'pose we'll see.

[Shade]

I thought i had read on the international site that the book was going to contain details of all the patterns?

We will know for sure thought when it comes out as you say. Not really an issue for me though as I am happy to do what my instructor tells and shows me, and I am in no rush to get ahead of myself.

[morphus]

I feel the same way there is no rush. I do wish i had one to one access to the guy himself sometimes. But i cannot afford to go to the U.S at the mo'

It's funny but CKD is all about personal development & CKD techniques are for each individual therefore i will not look exactly like the person next to me though we should be using the same mechanics. We do aim be as like GMC as poss' but it shouldn't be the ultimate goal. Self improvement is far more important.

I find that CKD is a great base of philosophy & technique(though it rarely gets it)but for my 'personal' martial art i feel i need to look at other arts & learn about them, take some of their techniques & encorperate them into my 'personal' art BUT only if doesn't contradict CKD philosophies & techniques/skills.

Just rambling......

[Shade]

I had a sort of personal enlightenment in class on Thursday.

I had been practising the rear inwards punch doing what I have been told (moving hips around, raising back heal and putting body weight into the punch) but had been using external power (i.e. punching using my shoulder and arm muscles). And a very good punch it was.

But in class on thursday i tried the same twisting of my lower body but relaxing my arm and shoulder so as to just utilise the power of the twisting lower body and found two things.

1. there was complete relaxation of my elbow throughout which gave the punch a 'smoother' feel (cant quite explain properly but try it yourself and see if you understand what i mean)

2. the power of the punch on contact with the shield (and mitt later on in the lesson) felt much greater to me. My shield partner actually commented that the punches felt extremely hard.

Not sure if that is the way I ma actually supposed to be doing it anyway, but if it is something has just clicked into place which feels good. But if not then punching in this way feels better to me personally and also seems to enable me to create more power on contact. Which is cool.

[morphus]

Sounds like a cog just clicked into place - being relaxed & fluid is the key to performing CKD techniques. You must let the technique work for you & resist the temptation to force a tech', the body will work against tech' if tenced.

My instructor taught me & now i also teach, that the arm is the just the weapon(just dead wood at LEAST from the elbow down) perhaps like an arrow in the bow & arrow, the bow is what propels/slings the weapon at the target - you have to pull the bow as part of the sequencial movement .
OR look at it like using a ball & chain, the ball as the weapon & the chain as the whipping mechanism or again the sequencial motion.
The follow through should run smoothly with elbow dropping first just before full extention is achieved, natually bringing the arm/fist(no need to pull) back to it's original position.

[Scaramouch]

Yes, I also think of CKD punches as having a whip-like motion - starting with a slight shift of weight to the back, drawing back the hip (punching side), the twist the hip through sharply then the shoulder follows then the arm and fist together. The shield work ensures that, although the arm is relaxed, you keep the angle of the wrist in the correct position, otherwise you'll know about it - ouch!! As you'll find out, its more difficult for vertical round punches.

If you watch a boxer you'll see a similar approach for the cross, where the weight shifts back slightly before going forward through the techique. The one problem one with this is that if you are up against an experienced fighter this does telegraph your intent, but the power benefits mean its a neccessary evil. Your opponent may see the first but the idea is that it will be harder to spot the 2nd, 3rd, 4th, etc etc. - promotes the use of combinations.

[amiller127]

I might be wrong on this one. Watching the videos of GMC it can look like he is drawing back his arm on punching off the rear.

But the way I like to explain it is that you are already leaning back a little in your stance. As you shift forward and get the hip and torso into the tech, the attacking arm isnt drawn back, but is left where it is in the stance, lagging behind a little, creating a plyometric stretch.

Then it accelerates in for the impact. Thats the way I practice it to reduce telegraphing the technique!

[Scaramouch]

Yes, I don't think the arm is drawn back either. Its the slight shift of body weight and chambering the hip backwards that alerts the opponent that a punch is coming their way. I can see that the arm/fist may, naturally, move back very slightly because the hip is initially drawn back before being rotated through the technique.

I guess this is where feints and use of dodging could be used to confuse an opponent, by keeping the body weight and hip angle shifting, so as to hide telegraphing your punches?

[amiller127]

I was talking on the rear punch specifically with the last post. Something i have noticed with the front punches is that you can use fakes very well as your counter rotating the hip to get the torso turned and chambered ready for the front punch.

As you push off of the rear leg, bringing the rear hip forward you can use the rear arm to fake. The front arm is already in the punching position and can come quickly into attack when you person reacts to the feint.

Love teaching the faking techniques. Makes training a little more fun. And makes your defence drills more challenging when someone is trying to fake you occassionally.

[morphus]

I know i always hear an introductory or new student "oh you chamber the arm by pulling the arm back or swivalling back or shifting back - NO, nothing goes back, everything goes forward just in sequential movement - when performed at speed it can look as though you move something back but this is not the case, it's a trick of the eyes.

[Scaramouch]

May be thats the CKD way of punching - nothing goes back, OK.

But when you are next doing shield or mitt work on either front or rear inward punch - try rolling the shoulders and then your weight ever so slighty backwards, then throw your hip, then torso, then shouder, then arm forwards through the technique - its got almost a circular feel to it. Then tell me you don't gain power. Its is may be not the technique as taught in Choi but you do gain a lot of power using this approach.

[amiller127]

Your right of course. You would have more power as the arm has a further distance to generate the force for impact. Like you said however, it can telegraph the technique slightly.

So depends on what you want. If you wanted more power, but a higher risk of missing then loop the arm back a little more. At then end of the day its up to the students to decide when its applicable for them.

[Scaramouch]

Getting back to one of the main issues or the thread..............

Once you get your CKDMAI membership, your pin number should allow you to see the syllabus up to your grade via their web site. If you do not have your membership through yet, your instructor should be able to give you these A4 summaries that go through the requirements of each grade - clearly listed.

Sorry to dissappoint, but as far as I know there is (fortunately IMO) no testicle kicking required for BB.............................some masochistic Okinawan karate-ka might enjoy lumping each other in the nads but I'm all for either blocking or get the hell out the way!

[amiller127]

Originally posted by Scaramouch
Getting back to one of the main issues or the thread..............

Once you get your CKDMAI membership, your pin number should allow you to see the syllabus up to your grade via their web site. If you do not have your membership through yet, your instructor should be able to give you these A4 summaries that go through the requirements of each grade - clearly listed.

Sorry to dissappoint, but as far as I know there is (fortunately IMO) no testicle kicking required for BB.............................some masochistic Okinawan karate-ka might enjoy lumping each other in the nads but I'm all for either blocking or get the hell out the way!

WTF!! (And i dont mean a TKD organisation)

Missed something somewhere. Whats all this talk about getting kicked in the testicles. Dont care what anyone says. Even if GMC said that 100 kicks to the nuts would turn you into neo, that is 100 kicks more than im prepared to take.

Thats just sick and twisted!!!

[Scaramouch]

Originally posted by lawman
I recently went to a Ishin Ryu Jujitsu class (http://www.ishinryu.com), when upon asking for details of their syllabus, I was presented with the full details from white belt up to black belt in a very clear and detailed manner.

The exam for black belt..........took 2 days to complete with a 12 mile jog, followed by 1/2 mile swim with 8 hours in the dojo completing several requirements and getting kicked in the testicles (this is where the chi training helps!).

Thats what I was talking about. I know Goju-Ryu karate-ka like to do this kind of thing as well...............nutters!

[amiller127]

I wouldnt mind kicking them in the nuts. Purely in the interest of their martial arts development. Would like to give the front kick a good testing :D

[lawman]

I know, I know; nobody likes to discuss internal issues here, but just to clarify.

The point of the kicking in the nuts, is not to get hit in them; but as I'm sure everyone will disbelieve; it's to pull your testicles into your body using your Chi energy.

I've confirmed this with a fighter who is not affiliated to the Jujitsu organisation, and he also practices Chi manipulation. One of the tricks they use to test if you have mastered certain levels of manipulation is to see if you can pull your testicles into your body.

As such, your testicles are not supposed to get hit in the kick.

Now, don't everybody start jumping on me, cos I know, in here the world is flat.

[amiller127]

Actually, can contract my testicles in by flexing some muscle down that area. Be damned if i know which one though. Still, to Chi or not to Chi, would still not like to risk getting kicked in the knackers. Anyone here ever messed up a technique the first few times they did it?

Imagine if you messed up with this one.

On another point, I personaly dont feel that the world is considered flat around here. The world is round, that is known. But there are many things about the world that we dont know about.

My belief is this. The brain is an amazingly powerfull thing. I have personaly seen it keep people alive when they should have died. I have seen it give a person close to me a new dose of life for a week so that he could see his son one more time before he died. Before he knew his son was coming back he was almost ready to go. You could see the life ebbing from him. When I told him his son was coming back he seemed to stabilise again. When he woke up one day to see his son standing in front of him he somehow managed to spark to life. He was better in the last week of his life than he was for the last month. His brain gave him another dose of life in order for him to fulfil his last wish to see his son again.

So call it Chi, call it positive mental energy, call it faith in the body and mind. Whatever you call it i have seen some amazing feats accomplished with the mind. It can do things for you without you even putting conscious effort into it. And it can harness and direct the force and energy in your body with powerfull effect.

[morphus]

Oh c'mon...don't talk balls.:D

But if we have to, i do lose one occasionally:eek: don't have any control over it though:rolleyes:

[Scaramouch]

Retractable testicles...........mmmm..............I've heard this one before. I have an open mind, may be it is true? But may be its one of those MA urban myths?

From what I know of Okinawan karate, namely Ishin-Ryu and Goju-Ryu, they train to get conditioned to withstanding the pain, so that they can carry on fighting regardless, so I'd be surprised if its super-human, retractable nad skills in this instance. But see what your Ishinryu Jujitsu instructor has to say.

Gary Spiers was a MMA legend who trained in Okinawa for 2 years and in his magazine interviews he states he just got accustomed to being regularly kicked in the nads by his senior BBs in Japan during sparring and just got used to ignoring the pain so he could continue fighting/defending himself. Yes, its "nuts" I know.

[Shade]

Fancy becoming accustomed to being kicked in the nuts :eek:

Maybe they ended up flat like pancakes :D hence he couldn't feel anything.

God just thinking about it makes my nads want to go up inside my head to escape.

[LilBunnyRabbit]

Your right of course. You would have more power as the arm has a further distance to generate the force for impact. Like you said however, it can telegraph the technique slightly.

It also tends to slow the technique down a little. Personally I just don't think the small amount of extra power you get is worth the extra time the technique takes. Remember that if you throw a front inwards punch properly, your front shoulder doesn't move, but relative to your rear shoulder it moves backwards a little, meaning that you still generate close to the same power and the same rotation, without shifting your weight backwards.