Silat finish techniques...

[scottsummers]

are there any harimau videos or any style of silat vids out there that actually go through finishing techniques-

i.e. : armbars, submission, pressure point, neck crank stuff.....or harimau type stuff?

[ICT]

Scott,

Most Silat especially Harimau does not grapple as JuJitsu does. Harimau is actually a complete ground fighting system that even uses weapons.

Harimau and other Silat ground fighting does not for the most part do joint locks or controls but instead do breaks, dislocations or kills.

I know this is not exactly what you were looking for but I hope it helps.

Sincerely,
Teacher: Eddie Ivester

[scottsummers]

Scott,

Most Silat especially Harimau does not grapple as JuJitsu does. Harimau is actually a complete ground fighting system that even uses weapons.

Harimau and other Silat ground fighting does not for the most part do joint locks or controls but instead do breaks, dislocations or kills.

I know this is not exactly what you were looking for but I hope it helps.

Sincerely,
Teacher: Eddie Ivester


well yea, I was aware of that but are there videos that go through some ground basics or finishes? Of the one or two herman suwanda videos I have seen he almost always finishes with a lock or pressure point technique.

[Gajah Silat]

Scott,

Many silat locks that you see demonstrated are actually breaks and dislocations too when implemented with speed and power. Yes, many can of course be used as a submission hold too.

So, if we move away from a competition submission to win mentality, many submission techniques regardless of style can be deployed in the same manner.

The silat mentality after takedown is not about applying a technique until the other guy taps out.

It is this. Take 'em down, break a limb, stamp on the back of their ankle etc...then you have a chance against the other guy coming at you with a knife. It is about incapacitating one opponent as fast as you can and being ready for the next one.

I believe the De Bourdes Harimau school have a 4 second rule. You must be able to deal with an opponent within 4 seconds to have a chance in a mutiple attack. (Any deBourdes pesilat please correct me if I'm wrong :) )

We love a worst case scenario ;)

[Gajah Silat]

Scott,

As for DVDs, there are some that have some techniques that you are looking for, but the only one I know of that is specifically groundfighting orientated is by Steve Benitez(I haven't seen this one). Check out his website.

Otherwise do some googling or youtubing on , Harimau and Minang(Minangkabau) styles, and check out people like Guru Richard De Bourdes & Guru Eric Kruk. You should find something amongst that lot :)

[scottsummers]

yea i have the benitez ground dvd. I like it although it doesnt cover very much material, it is well done and the stuff it does show is good. I just emailed some new debordes website.....seems he keeps switching or his old one was shut down. Also, since I started pekiti tersia i have been looking into their dumog which is really similar, also called dumpag sometimes....

[silatliam]

In Pukulan Cimande Pusaka we cover harimau as part of our core training. We have a seminar dvd that was film at my school a few years back, and covers alot of material and techniques from postures on the ground, to takedown down from the ground counters to kicks and punches, locks and various kicks you can do. Also there some drills to develop your skill on the ground. If you want more detail or how to get it, just send me a PM and I get back to you. Hope this helps.

By the way one of my senior students who is a guru, is moving to Seattle next month, and will be setting up a training group there, if you interested in doing some training, you be more than welcome to meet up
Liam

[Gajah Silat]

Scott,

Sorry didn't realise you allready studied silat until I looked at your profile after posting...hope I didn't patronise or offend :o

Robert Torres has a Kasalag Silat video on Buno too, which is good but more grappling & takedown orientated.

Ron Balicki demonstrates some of the techniques I think you are looking for on one of his DVDs, I think it's silat takedowns and entries.

[tellner]

Hmm, one of the problems here is terminology. In most of the Silat with which I'm familiar a lock or submission isn't a "finishing technique". It's what you use when one isn't appropriate. Finishing techniques tend to disable or kill and often involve fractured skulls, dislocated necks, penetrating stab wounds and ballistic limb breaks. I'm not sure I'd want videos floating around with those for anyone who has $19.95

[Gajah Silat]

Well, good point there!

But...joint dislocations and breaks are certainly part and parcel of most silat and some knife techniques are just plain evil. Mind you some things are indeed better left to a teachers discretion........rather than DVDs!

However, I not quite sure that Scott was asking for techniques to finish someone permanently :eek: .

[scottsummers]

yea i was talking about plain ol' finishing techniques....like catch wrestling's version of hooking, you might have a joint lock that involves mis-alignment of the person's body posture while you execute the technique and at the least results in a tap. BJJ can and probably will have the same street mentality....don't forget that....so if silat does not even have the ability to do some subs or compliances then that would be a weakness on the teacher's part. It's like a karate guy saying "don't take me down or I would have to do a uraken to your temple resulting in your death". And we all know that they cannot even do that having not the realistic training to do it. I know there's silat styles that go through basic - yet different armbars and yes, when I was in silat we did ground work. In practice the other guy taps if the lock is applied with correct leverage.

[ICT]

yea i was talking about plain ol' finishing techniques....like catch wrestling's version of hooking, you might have a joint lock that involves mis-alignment of the person's body posture while you execute the technique and at the least results in a tap. BJJ can and probably will have the same street mentality....don't forget that....so if silat does not even have the ability to do some subs or compliances then that would be a weakness on the teacher's part. It's like a karate guy saying "don't take me down or I would have to do a uraken to your temple resulting in your death". And we all know that they cannot even do that having not the realistic training to do it. I know there's silat styles that go through basic - yet different armbars and yes, when I was in silat we did ground work. In practice the other guy taps if the lock is applied with correct leverage.

Scott,

Most Silat Ground Fighting doesn't have locks because they are Ground Fighting Style not Grappling Styles! Also they are not a sport or for control they are a Tribal Fighting Art for Life & Death usually against multiple opponents that need to be Crippled, Maimed or Killed!

BJJ is a Grappling Art NOT a Ground Fighting Art and NO they won't do breaks & dislocations to Cripple, Maim or Kill on the street because that is not what they train for! It's easy to say I know how to do an armbar so in a Life & Death encounter I would just break the arm instead of locking it but it just doesn't work that way. Is it Possible Yes, Probable No! Why, because

You Fight The Way You Train So Train The Way You Fight!

So if your looking for finishing moves that control the person once they are on the ground instead of disengaging then I would say incorporate BJJ's Joint Locks, Chokes and Holds into the Silat you already know.

That way you have exactly what you want and who knows it may become popular as well as become your trademark.

Sincerely,
Teacher: Eddie Ivester

[scottsummers]

Scott,

Most Silat Ground Fighting doesn't have locks because they are Ground Fighting Style not Grappling Styles! Also they are not a sport or for control they are a Tribal Fighting Art for Life & Death usually against multiple opponents that need to be Crippled, Maimed or Killed!

BJJ is a Grappling Art NOT a Ground Fighting Art and NO they won't do breaks & dislocations to Cripple, Maim or Kill on the street because that is not what they train for! It's easy to say I know how to do an armbar so in a Life & Death encounter I would just break the arm instead of locking it but it just doesn't work that way. Is it Possible Yes, Probable No! Why, because

You Fight The Way You Train So Train The Way You Fight!

So if your looking for finishing moves that control the person once they are on the ground instead of disengaging then I would say incorporate BJJ's Joint Locks, Chokes and Holds into the Silat you already know.

That way you have exactly what you want and who knows it may become popular as well as become your trademark.

Sincerely,
Teacher: Eddie Ivester


Well the way you describe it...."fight the way you train" then you are even less equipped then most bjj people because you can't train break someone's limb or crack their neck in practice, and yes I have seen ground work in silat styles, they usually just don't stay at a lock for 30 seconds or more. If you don't know how to control someone there is even less chance you will be able to break their limbs. A bjj blackbelt not only has a dictionary of sub transitions to flow into but he has better positioning for striking. I only say that to point out that a lot of silat people think "oh yea....we just kill them/snap their limbs". It's not like that though in real life. There's a lot more to it.

[Gajah Silat]

Scott,

Not quite sure where this thread is going.....& I might incur the BJJ wrath here....but we essentialy have a difference of approach.

Ok, whilst 'submission' is possibly a favourable option against one opponent or in competitive sport, it is not a viable option with multiple attackers. I do not doubt that the BJJ blackbelt has a greater advantage than most styles against a single opponent if the fight goes to the ground, but that's not the point.

Take the photo below.....yes the opponent is finished with that armbar eh? But that's until his friend turns up and gives the guy applying it an allmighty kick in the back of the head. That's what real life is like...take it from a guy that's been headstamped into a coma :D

As for 'just kill 'em', I don't think anyone is really naive enough to think that...but as you come to mention it 'just kill 'em' is an option with a knife. However, I don't fancy the old life inprisonment part :eek:

[Sgt_Major]

but in that photo, the guys both know there is only 1 opponent.

Not 1 single time during my silat training did I break an arm, or leg. I did accidentlly bugger a guys knee, but that was accidental... so If I fought the way I trained, Id never have broken a limb.

[Gajah Silat]

but in that photo, the guys both know there is only 1 opponent.

Hehehe and perhaps they might always assume that even when there is not!

C'mon the guy's head would practically be screaming 'kick me as hard as you can' if he tried to pull off that armbar on a Friday night on the pavement :)

As for train as you fight, of course that is limited. maiming and killing is probably a bad idea in training....or in real life except in the most extreme situations.

So, if you can accidentaly bugger a knee duning training you should be able to really bugger a knee if you meant it?

[Sgt_Major]

Yeah, I can deliberately bugger a knee, but should the guy in the pic end up on his back on the pavement, I bet he can get up quick enough ;)

The concept of you fight how you train, so train how you fight isnt subjective, it's either on or off. You cant train it all except the break or maim, but claim 'in the moment' I would.

I know people who trained but never full contact sparring, and couldnt actually hit the person in a real situation because they never had, and didnt know how. They could block lightningly fast, but could not strike. Thats a perfect example of fighting how you train.

Silat in general has a lot of useful techniques, and with the right person and the right mindset and training is a devastating art. Its just disheartening to see so many people half training and thinking they are devastating :rolleyes:

[Gajah Silat]

but should the guy in the pic end up on his back on the pavement, I bet he can get up quick enough

I don't doubt that he can get up fast, but how he going to see them comming? If they are behind his head they are out of vision. He is also pre occupied by the first opponent.

I know people who trained but never full contact sparring, and couldnt actually hit the person in a real situation because they never had, and didnt know how. They could block lightningly fast, but could not strike. Thats a perfect example of fighting how you train.

Indeed!

Silat in general has a lot of useful techniques, and with the right person and the right mindset and training is a devastating art. Its just disheartening to see so many people half training and thinking they are devastating

Moi? :eek: Don't think I've ever made any uber deadly devastating claims :eek: I think the 'deadly syndrome' exists in all arts regardless.

[scottsummers]

really i'm not trying to argue about approach or silat mentality or what you can or can't pull of on the street, Im just casually asking if anyone has come across some silat vids with some locks/subs at the end. so far the ones I have seen that do contain them are-

most of herman suwanda's stuff

steven benitez

rick hernandez-filipino kuntao(he trained under uncle bill)

[Gajah Silat]

LOL don't worry, threads often spiral out of control.

Just had another thought! Rick Tucci has a DVD with a lot of ground locking, can't remember the name though! Think he's an Inosanto guy!

Here, found it, vol 2.

http://www.pamausa.com/Pages/silat1.shtml

[TheMightyMcClaw]

Scott,

Most Silat Ground Fighting doesn't have locks because they are Ground Fighting Style not Grappling Styles! Also they are not a sport or for control they are a Tribal Fighting Art for Life & Death usually against multiple opponents that need to be Crippled, Maimed or Killed!

BJJ is a Grappling Art NOT a Ground Fighting Art and NO they won't do breaks & dislocations to Cripple, Maim or Kill on the street because that is not what they train for! It's easy to say I know how to do an armbar so in a Life & Death encounter I would just break the arm instead of locking it but it just doesn't work that way. Is it Possible Yes, Probable No! Why, because

You Fight The Way You Train So Train The Way You Fight!

So if your looking for finishing moves that control the person once they are on the ground instead of disengaging then I would say incorporate BJJ's Joint Locks, Chokes and Holds into the Silat you already know.

That way you have exactly what you want and who knows it may become popular as well as become your trademark.

Sincerely,
Teacher: Eddie Ivester


So when you spar in Silat, you actually apply neck cranks past the breaking point? Wouldn't this cause you to run out of sparring partners rather quickly?
Also, what's up with all the caps?

[Wali]

I train with Steve Benitez and the groundwork/grappling/etc... we do, ends up in various ways... you either knock the other person out, or you lock them until they tap, or you choke them out until the tap out or pass out.

I have to agree that too much of the silat I have seen doesn't have the groundwork that would be considered great by BJJ guys, etc... but that doesn't mean it wouldn't work under certain conditions.

At the end of the day, it really does boil down to the individual and not so much the style. There are so many variables in confrontations, that we cannot REALLY plan for each possibility, just try and be as prepared as we can, and learn to respond, rather than react.

[I'mKira]

C'mon the guy's head would practically be screaming 'kick me as hard as you can' if he tried to pull off that armbar on a Friday night on the pavement :)


Yeah, because noone's ever been sucker punched from behind while standing before.

Question: Why are you clubbing alone on a friday night? Do you have no friends?

[ICT]

really i'm not trying to argue about approach or silat mentality or what you can or can't pull of on the street, Im just casually asking if anyone has come across some silat vids with some locks/subs at the end. so far the ones I have seen that do contain them are-

most of herman suwanda's stuff

steven benitez

rick hernandez-filipino kuntao(he trained under uncle bill)

Scott,

Just as I have pointed out for you to do, those individuals added submissions, locks, holds and etc. to their Silat.

Silat as a whole does not do Controls such as Joint Locks, Armbars, Chokes and etc.

You have found all the Silat videos that have these aspects so I would again suggest that you incorporate BJJ into your Silat and have exactly what you want!

Sincerely,
Teacher: Eddie Ivester

[I'mKira]

BJJ is a Grappling Art NOT a Ground Fighting Art and NO they won't do breaks & dislocations to Cripple, Maim or Kill on the street because that is not what they train for! It's easy to say I know how to do an armbar so in a Life & Death encounter I would just break the arm instead of locking it but it just doesn't work that way. Is it Possible Yes, Probable No! Why, because

You Fight The Way You Train So Train The Way You Fight!

So you're telling me that when I was attacked and used an armbar from guard to dislocate my attacker's elbow, it wasn't due to my BJJ training?

[ICT]

Well the way you describe it...."fight the way you train" then you are even less equipped then most bjj people because you can't train break someone's limb or crack their neck in practice, and yes I have seen ground work in silat styles, they usually just don't stay at a lock for 30 seconds or more. If you don't know how to control someone there is even less chance you will be able to break their limbs. A bjj blackbelt not only has a dictionary of sub transitions to flow into but he has better positioning for striking. I only say that to point out that a lot of silat people think "oh yea....we just kill them/snap their limbs". It's not like that though in real life. There's a lot more to it.
Scott,

You're correct you can't break student's bones in class but you can teach how to do it and train your mind to actually break it in a real encounter and go through the motions to train the subconscious & muscle memory.

It's like this, BJJ trains to tap people out not to break. So in a real confrontation their subconscious & muscle memory won't do a break it will just lock the joint waiting for the tap!

Now is that to say that in the heat of battle when your latched on like a pitbull that a joint won't get overextended or a bone broken no of course not and there have been those things happen even in competitions but they were ACCIDENTS!

That is enough on that subject we are digressing, so please read my other post to you and just incorporate BJJ into your Silat.

Sincerely,
Teacher: Eddie Ivester

[Gajah Silat]

Yeah, because noone's ever been sucker punched from behind while standing before.

On the contrary, I have been suckerpunched from behind in the past. However, I fail to see how this negates getting kicked in the head whilst grappling on the ground.

Question: Why are you clubbing alone on a friday night? Do you have no friends?

LOL, why are you getting all personal? Firstly, I'm 40years old with a family so i don't tend to go clubbing at all :rolleyes: Secondly, I have in the past been attacked and outnumbered on the way home alone on several occasions. And finally, you are much more likely to be attacked whilst alone.

[scottsummers]

Well ICT I think you are insinuating that no silat has ground locks and I could not agree with that statement at all and why get heated? You almost act like you are getting frustrated and you want me to take bjj to complement my silat? Im not into that....im not gonna do some compact moves then do a giant turn taking 10 seconds and fall into a sloppy armbar. Silat has this stuff, its just more compact. Ive seen gurus with decades of experience that got ground work, you can't really say otherwise cause i've already seen it. Silat is an extensive art and I don't think most silat gurus would deny that they have to deal with ground defense or what happens if they get tackled/mounted, etc. In my silat class I learned mount reversals and quick submissions from guard.....no it wasn't bjj but obviously my instructor was aware that those were sectors of fighting that people will deal with if taken to the ground. Even untrained people if pummelling you on the ground will either pass the guard area or attack you in your guard. Now consider this....if you can't even do a submission/break to a resisting opponent on the ground ...he's got you and his friend will kick you in the head, what now? If you train ground work and positions though, trust me you can be fast as hell on the ground and if there is any art that's known for its speed of getting to or from the ground its silat.

[I'mKira]

It's like this, BJJ trains to tap people out not to break. So in a real confrontation their subconscious & muscle memory won't do a break it will just lock the joint waiting for the tap!

So, once again, the man whose elbow I broke with an armbar from guard, was that not BJJ?

[Sgt_Major]

It's like this, BJJ trains to tap people out not to break. So in a real confrontation their subconscious & muscle memory won't do a break it will just lock the joint waiting for the tap!

As opposed to Silat training how .... You don't break the arm in training either, so what's the difference?

[I'mKira]

On the contrary, I have been suckerpunched from behind in the past. However, I fail to see how this negates getting kicked in the head whilst grappling on the ground.

They are the same thing: a completely meaningless red herring used by people who are threatened by sportfighting and want an easy dismissal, no matter how illogical.



LOL, why are you getting all personal? Firstly, I'm 40years old with a family so i don't tend to go clubbing at all :rolleyes: Secondly, I have in the past been attacked and outnumbered on the way home alone on several occasions. And finally, you are much more likely to be attacked whilst alone.

As here:
C'mon the guy's head would practically be screaming 'kick me as hard as you can' if he tried to pull off that armbar on a Friday night on the pavement

The "on a friday night" presumably means after a night downtown, or elese why would you include that detail?

And since that is an activity you don't actually do, let me educate you, as a 23 year old who goes out every weekend:

If you're going to a place on the busiest night of the week with no backup and without knowing the staff, you are a <<snip>>. This isn't godamn rocket science, people. You can avoid this whole argument by having friends (I realize that for some of you this is a near insurmountable obstacle) and not going to places you don't know alone at night.

If, after that, you're still getting jumped, guess what: You're buggered. Hard. Your Silat is not going to help you. You're going to get swarmed, punched from many different angles at the same time, pulled to the ground, booted, and eventually end up with an awful headache, a lump in your throat and the shards of your tribal warrior persona scattered around you.

I've been on the giving and recieving end of these kinds of attacks. Don't fool yourself.


Mod Edit: Do not swear. I will remove posts that contain swearing from here on.

[scottsummers]

As opposed to Silat training how .... You don't break the arm in training either, so what's the difference?

Exactly!!

[Gajah Silat]

Well, well ImKira,

I'm not quite sure what has caused your rather aggresive and disproportionate response. However, I'm so glad you have attempted to educate me with your whole 23 years of life experience(BTW I was working the door at a club at your age ;) ).

So.....

They are the same thing: a completely meaningless red herring used by people who are threatened by sportfighting and want an easy dismissal, no matter how illogical.

Although, both could be termed something akin to 'unexpected attacks outside the line of vision', they are clearly not the same. I would suggest you have a chat with an A&E employee, you will find out there are far more head injuries caused by kickings on the ground than the odd suckerpunch from behind. So, these attacks are not meaningless, but rather commonplace. Aside from knife attacks, head injuries are statistically responsible for a high proportion of serious or lethal injuries.

As for 'threatened by sportfighting', I'm not sure what you are getting at :confused: All I have suggested is some ground techniques would be ill advised in some situations!

The "on a friday night" presumably means after a night downtown, or elese why would you include that detail?

A big presumtion! Statistically most violent attacks happen after closing time on Fridays nights. Not everyone is out clubbing with a protective entourage of friends :rolleyes: Do they walk you all the way to your front door? There are many many reasons someone could be alone in the wrong place at the wrong time on a Friday night!

If, after that, you're still getting jumped, guess what: You're buggered. Hard. Your Silat is not going to help you. You're going to get swarmed, punched from many different angles at the same time, pulled to the ground, booted, and eventually end up with an awful headache, a lump in your throat and the shards of your tribal warrior persona scattered around you.

You don't say :eek: I must stop living in a bubble and get out in the real world from time to time :rolleyes:

eventually end up with an awful headache

Just a headache? What no broken ribs? No fractured skull? Mate, you've never had a serious beating then.

I've been on the giving and recieving end of these kinds of attacks. Don't fool yourself.

So, do you prefer to give or receive? :D

Does being a competitive sporting martial artist teach you to, as you have admitted, 'give' out these kind of attacks?

Luckily for me my 'tribal warrior persona' (whatever that is :confused: ) has only ever been used to protect myself or others :love:

[jeff5]

Rick Tucci's DVD's have some good controls in them. I think they're available on his site through ESPY TV. Also Ron Balicki's DVD on Kali-Silat has controls and submissions on it.

To me, a lock or submission is a good way to control someone and keep your options open. The way I've learned them and like to train them is to leave myself in a position where I can still deal with another attacker if need be. (my opponent on his side, or on his face is ideal) That way I can restrain the person without causing serious injury. If another attacker arrives or the situation changes I can then break the limb, or disable the person in some manner, and move on.

[Silatyogi]

Silat Finishes:

Taking the consciousness IMMEDIATELY (K.O)

attacks to appropriate Pressure points or Nerves.

Eye Strikes

Throat Strikes

Air/ Blood Chokes

Neck Cranks

Atlas Bone damaging blows

Ripping fingers off

Dislocations

Disrupting the spine with a knee, elbow, or a devastating throw

Stabbing

Shooting

Of course keep in mind the LAW where you live and try your best not to get into any trouble. Target Denial is always better than life in Prison. Or move to Florida where defending yourself if you have a CWC License is more acceptable.....

To learn that stuff you would need to find a guru willing to teach you who actually has had to use such things in the real world.

Guru Cliff Stewart would be a good place to start. cliffstewart.com

his W.A.R series has a lot of good stuff that can certainly get one out of trouble fast. But again going in person to train with someone of that caliber is better than a VIDEO any day.

Peace

Santiago

[jeff5]

I'd also like to add that another good DVD for finishes (mostly non-lethal) is Ron Balicki's panantukan DVD set.

[stolbart]

To GajahSilat

I believe your absolutely correct about so called "finishing techniques" not only in Silat but in all traditional martial arts. I study Tai Chi Chuan and Silat Lian Padukan and have never yet encoutered a technique I believe to be a restraint or a hold or for that matter a block. If we forget about sports martial arts and focus on 'street arts' there is no time to block, parry, hold and finish. You have to break 'em up as quickly as possible so you can leg it before all there mates turn up, same as its always been.

[Raden-Rahmat]

salam....
i know its a late post but here we go...just felt enthusiastic about participating in this. in my training ive always wanted to do drastic things and flashy techniques and this was my pursuit for quite a while. when i came accross the adat and adab of the malays (and i say malays in the most passive and religious terms not those who are patriotic and all that) i began to have a deeper understanding as to why the malays practice silat. and guess what!!! it was not for survival or defense as the average man would have it, but to the refined pesilat silat was a system, a system of moral maintenance and social stability. A system that allowed you to pursue choices to contribute to positive change physically, mentally, socially and spiritually. ppl always seem to mention the types of blows and breaks but that is not the aim of silat...ask your Guru, it was never the aim. The best way in silat is to stop the fight in the quickest and swiftest manner without hurting the opponent. Your opponent must find in you the complete being...not that you are perfect but that your aspirations are clearly showing to be directed in this line. If he attacks you with ferocity, your aim to subdue him will be of a lesser impact...all you must do is get him in the lock which you are taught...called the submission sequence...once in this grip you give him the option to end his behaviour or if he does not he will then suffer...again your aim is not to kill or damage but a lesson of some pain will get to his thick skull. but im not the expert, just the wisdom of my Silat peers. The 3 ways of Silat the way of the tongue, the way of avoidance and the way of subduing without hurt. i was told the highest of all confrontations would be to stop your opponent without hurting him...we can do this, but its the mindset that holds the key...i took almost 5 years to grasp just the lankah silat...not practice it...just graps its essence...everything in silat is essence...take all you can from your teacher....i wish i did lol....

btw, I am a pesilat of Persatuan Seni Pukulan Melaka Malaysia...the origins of the style are both Sumatra and Melaka..the 2 warrior capitals of silat heritage.

[Sgt_Major]

someone attacks me, Im not interested in showing him how to be a better person, I'm kickin his ass a. to get away and b. retaliation

[Gajah Silat]

Mas Raden-Rahmat,

I think 'growth' for want of a better term, is part of all Martial Arts, not just silat. I look at it this way. You are learning to master your own body through movement, posture and breathing. This in turn gives greater awareness of one's self. You learn to push your body beyond what is considered normal and a part of this is not only physical but psychological as mind and body are intrinsically linked. This in turn creates a greater awareness of the way mind and body function together.

Of course learning mastery of one's self both and physical and psychological self control is surely a good thing:) Some may interpret this as a spiritual phenomenon, some not. In the end is it really important what we call it? It's down to personal interpretation, but of course we will mostly interpret things via our own culture. The same(or similar) experience may just be manifesting intself a little differently. Nevertheless, we are all experiencing something that has more similarities than differences, and I think this is something that often gets overlooked. There is always more similarity than difference:)

However, we are learning how to hurt people if the need arises! The if, when, and how much force to use, of course are the key issues.

Anyway, Mas Raden-Rahmat, I warmly welcome you to the forum-selamat datang:).

As a newcomer you will not be aware of much that has gone before. Many talented and insightful posters have been driven away by infighting, religious difference, politics and bickering.

As I said, being pesilat and humans, we have a lot more in common than a little cultural difference!

I don't mean to lecture, but sometimes it would be good to just talk about techniques:)

Salam Hormat

[tellner]

someone attacks me, Im not interested in showing him how to be a better person, I'm kickin his ass a. to get away and b. retaliation

Oh, but you are! You are!

Think of it as blessing him with the Enlightenment of Manju Sri which strikes like a thunderbolt. He'll either be a nice person, have a long time to consider his errors or burn off that nasty old karma and get a fresh start with a brand new body (no guarantee about species) :love:

[Kertas]

hey guys, lets stop lecturing each other and grasp the sentiments displayed.. so the topic was harimua finishing techniques.. hmm, i learnt a few harimau techniques and unfortunately didnt learn enough to be able to give advice on finishing off technique.

i do however have to mention that one strike of a harimau practitioner is enough to make you surrender. that is if you do it correctly. most silats will teach you the importance of the first strike/offence/defence. if that is done corectly, its should leave a "zing" in the opponents ears,face,head or heart. im sure harimau guys know what im talking about. and if you are Not gay, then dont be shy to attack the balls too hehe :woo:

so is it really the starting point, or the finishing technique hmm? just a question

[Raden-Rahmat]

like kertas says, the first strike is paramount, even so would be the 1st langkah...even more deeper would be to say your first reaction would be paramount. im just being cautious when i say consider the consequences cos it might be getting that buah pukulan in your face if you are hasty lol...but in all honesty, if some enraged rogue tries to get your wallet and watver, im sure any of us here would love to give him a hand, excuse for making it seem to light...but thats silat...i have to use the bunga in my speech too....lol

[Saiful Azraq]

Salam hormat everyone,

Once again, I join the fracas when everyone has gone for coffee (or tea, depending on which continent you're on).

Sgt Major
"Silat in general has a lot of useful techniques, and with the right person and the right mindset and training is a devastating art. Its just disheartening to see so many people half training and thinking they are devastating".

Sgt Major, my uncle, these words of wisdom should be printed in bold and taped on the exit sign of every silat school. :)

ICT
"Silat as a whole does not do Controls such as Joint Locks, Armbars, Chokes and etc."

If, as a whole, you mean, most silat, I would disagree with you, since statistically, there are hundreds, if not thousands of silat in Malaysia and Sumatera which do joint locks. Armbars... not so much. But chokes? Goodness, chokes we do.

The difference is in displays. Most traditional silat will not display a choke in public due to issues of honour of the performers, but more modern variations such as Silat Cekak and Silat Gayong have no such qualms. The chokes are either applied directly to the neck region or as a secondary target using the opponent's own limbs, clothes or by leveraging on his neck at an angle.

ICT
"You're correct you can't break student's bones in class but you can teach how to do it and train your mind to actually break it in a real encounter and go through the motions to train the subconscious & muscle memory."

In more modern silat, sometimes they forget about this and go about with quite unrealistic training. In more comprehensive traditional styles, the master keeps a close watch on the 'reality' of the training his students receive which always involve the element of surprise and ill-preparedness. But that was back when there were no laws and parents gave up their rights to their children's teachers.

The white cloth that was presented to the master during initiation is often described as the students' willingness to die in training and the absolution of blame on the part of the master. In short, back then, they did train to kill. Sigh.

Stolbart
"I study Tai Chi Chuan and Silat Lian Padukan and have never yet encoutered a technique I believe to be a restraint or a hold or for that matter a block."

Stolbart, my friend. LianPadukan is not silat. So, it's difficult to make that generalisation.

Raden-Rahmat
"It was not for survival or defense as the average man would have it, but to the refined pesilat silat was a system, a system of moral maintenance and social stability."

Brother Raden-Rahmat, silat was and will always remain a method of survival as it was born from survival, even as the average man sees it. The Melayu were a warring race and as one sociologist put it, used to enjoy scuffles and the opportunity to use his keris wherever he saw his honour compromised.

However, as with all cultures, they matured quickly, due to relations with other races and had very structured social systems and laws. Animism, Hinduism, Buddhism, Islam, India, China, Arabia, Persia, Portugal, England, all played important roles in maturing this race.

So too, did silat evolve. At this point in time, the police and the military have taken over our defensive roles, but silat still exists. Devoid of a national role, silat has fallen back to the only role it can still play, personal security and personal development. This is the role that it has continued to take on for itself in the last 100 years.

The lawlessness of the lands made for good silat, but it is now what you say it is. In some quarters, this has meant a watering down (Draeger Sensei's term) of the realisticness of silat methods, but the true masters of silat didn't (and still don't) have a phone number for Draeger Sensei to call. (Nor a website).

"The 3 ways of Silat the way of the tongue, the way of avoidance and the way of subduing without hurt."

I agree.

"I was told the highest of all confrontations would be to stop your opponent without hurting him"

I agree, but it's obvious that in many Asian societies, this is held to be the pinnacle of martial knowledge, of fighting without fighting (eh? sounds familiar). In many circles, it's called diplomacy. If you look up the word Pendekar in our local Kamus Dewan (Dewan Bahasa & Pustaka Dictionary), one of the definitions is Politician.

Sgt Major
"Someone attacks me, Im not interested in showing him how to be a better person, I'm kickin his ass a. to get away and b. retaliation"

Sgt, men freund. I know you understood that what Raden-Rahmat was saying is that the educational value of silat for the fighter is highly regarded. But, I don't think he meant that at the expense of being a lousy warrior.

Gajah Silat
However, we are learning how to hurt people if the need arises! The if, when, and how much force to use, of course are the key issues.

These words, too, are wont for framing on the exit!

Kertas
"Most silats will teach you the importance of the first strike/offence/defence. if that is done corectly, its should leave a "zing" in the opponents ears,face,head or heart.

Raden-Rahmat
"Like kertas says, the first strike is paramount, even so would be the 1st langkah"

It's interesting both of you say that, since LianPadukan (Stolbert talked about it) maintains that it's the second strike that more important, as the first strike often misses. Now THAT fodder for a good discussion. (Did I say fodder???)

Salam persilatan,

[Raden-Rahmat]

firstly, im gona say this. you right that with the historical aspect silat was meant for survival. but im taking it from the islamic perspective, where we are taught to behave as the Khalifatullah. i speak mainly from the islamic perspective since im muslim. i dont disregard past attitudes of silat though as it is part of development.
So when i say that not survival, im looking at it from the most humane sense that we are no longer in that mental state of devastating and destroying people as was the case in the era of the Colonialist. We are now in the era where beauty and tolerance and exceptional dignity must be shown in anyway possible. nobody says striking someone will not be accepted but we say strike him and take him down and share some words with him. get him to retreat from his wicked behaviour.

Kertas is my brother Nadzrin....we are from the same school of silat too. we have met with Guru Azlan when he came to South Africa as well. interesting information. as for the first strike...its the way of our teacher...1st movement should be well calculated... if you can that is...if tikme ever did help us out...and our mental agility, which is never upto scratch.