[Choi Kwang Do] Weapons training

[bigalexe]

i have been in CKD for 2 yrs. and have never done another martial art. i have researched other arts though and most include some weapons techniques. i realize this varies from the CKD philosophy slightly and supposedly our techniques are easily adapted to weapons but i think there should be some options to train with a staff/sword or something. post your thoughts

[amiller127]

Ive never trained with swords or staff in my 12 years in CKD. Cant much see the point. Your not going to be carrying a sword or staff around town to defend yourself.

Suppose you could maybe apply some of the sword staff techs to use a snooker cue or golf umbrella as a weapon, but then what is the law say on using them?

Im not worried personaly that its not in CKD. There are other things that would benefit CKD far more than bringing in some weapons training!

[Kof_Andy]

Weapon training is not for self defense, but for mental sharpening, physical understanding, and spritiual understanding. Is just like practicing your poomse, it hones your discipline in a different aspect. Theres nothing like doing a solo weapon forms for hours:P It takes insane amount of concentartion, and self motivation to learn weapons because in most cases it is a very lonely art. Especially Iaido....

[amiller127]

Originally posted by Kof_Andy
Weapon training is not for self defense, but for mental sharpening, physical understanding, and spritiual understanding. Is just like practicing your poomse, it hones your discipline in a different aspect. Theres nothing like doing a solo weapon forms for hours:P It takes insane amount of concentartion, and self motivation to learn weapons because in most cases it is a very lonely art. Especially Iaido....

Dont disagree with you on your points. But i dont think that weapons training is practical toward developing your self defence skills. And of all of the suggestions I have heard from people about what they would like to see come into the CKD syllabus, I personaly feel that weapons training ranks quite low on the list of priorities.

Not saying i dont admire the people who have the time and dedication to learn how to use weapons. It can be beautifull and gracefull to watch. But its not something im keen to see implemented in my art.

[Shade]

When I studied Iaido there were sometimes discussions about being able to apply the principles from that art to a street scenario, however it was always very tongue in cheek.

It would of course be possible to utilise an umbrella, snooker cue, even a table leg (if you happen to just be carrying one around of course, for those all important three legged table emergencies) however the law would undoubtedly frown severly upon using a piece of wood to strike somebody with.

The general concensus of opinion at the time was that whilst it was a nice thought, it wasn't practical and the best course would be to train in an additional art for more bodily options.

[Matt_Bernius]

Originally posted by amiller127
Dont disagree with you on your points. But i dont think that weapons training is practical toward developing your self defence skills. And of all of the suggestions I have heard from people about what they would like to see come into the CKD syllabus, I personaly feel that weapons training ranks quite low on the list of priorities. Interesting. I come at it from a different point of view. At high levels I think understanding weapons is critical to developing a full set of self defense skills. The Filipino Martial Arts demonstrate that, when taught correctly, you can learn about a significant number of weapons by only studing one. From a practicality standpoint, covering the sword (or at least a short stick), you can encorporate lessons about everything from club to knife. Plus it also feeds into open hand techniques.

It's something to consider.

- Matt

[Shaolin Dragon]

Learning to use weapons can enhance your unarmed skills.

[amiller127]

Originally posted by Matt_Bernius
Interesting. I come at it from a different point of view. At high levels I think understanding weapons is critical to developing a full set of self defense skills. The Filipino Martial Arts demonstrate that, when taught correctly, you can learn about a significant number of weapons by only studing one. From a practicality standpoint, covering the sword (or at least a short stick), you can encorporate lessons about everything from club to knife. Plus it also feeds into open hand techniques.

It's something to consider.

- Matt

Ok. Have to clarify.

My points were aimed at the use of a staff and sword as a weapon. Not very practical in my opinion for self defence.

However, learning to use a short stick, could have benefits. Im also of the mind that by learning how to use a knife, learning the many ways to attack a person with a knife that you stand a better chance of learning how to defend against them. I teach my students how to deal with bats and knives. I dont have an amazing amount of knowledge in this area and would benefit from knowing more. Can see a practical side to that. Also, some weapong training can develop hand speed and good hand to eye co ordination. But overall wouldnt want to see too much in the syllabus. Better knowledge of how to deal with weapons your likely to encounter is great. But its rare to have someone attack you with a sword, and i dont know anyone who carried one with them on the street to defend themselves.

[aml01_ph]

I disagree with some points about not learning the sword and/or the staff. Training with these indirectly develops the strength for other unarmed techniques. Staff training develops functional upper body strength while sword training develops useful arm strength (epecially for the wrists).

However, there are only so many ways that you can train with weapons that are practical for modern conditions. For example, kendo develops arm and shoulder strength with all the repetitions of swinging a bokken. But kendo in itself is not a practical method of self-defense in this modern age.

[amiller127]

Originally posted by aml01_ph
I disagree with some points about not learning the sword and/or the staff. Training with these indirectly develops the strength for other unarmed techniques. Staff training develops functional upper body strength while sword training develops useful arm strength (epecially for the wrists).

However, there are only so many ways that you can train with weapons that are practical for modern conditions. For example, kendo develops arm and shoulder strength with all the repetitions of swinging a bokken. But kendo in itself is not a practical method of self-defense in this modern age.

IMHO there are benefits in training in any art. Even ones with swords and staff. Never said there were not benefits. What I feel is that for purely self defence they are impractial. Also the benefits you describe can also be derived from other traininng methods, thus not having them in CKD syllabus does nothing to detriment the art itself.

If you want to study swords and weapons then go ahead by all means. There are benefits to be had. And i would say the same to all of my students. But there is no need for it in CKD.

[Matt_Bernius]

Originally posted by amiller127
However, learning to use a short stick, could have benefits. Im also of the mind that by learning how to use a knife, learning the many ways to attack a person with a knife that you stand a better chance of learning how to defend against them.B-I-N-G-O. You're on the right track with that statement. Learning how to use a knife is critical in understanding how to defend against one. From the little bit I've learned about CKD on this forum it seems that encorporation of some concepts from the Filipino arts would be a great compliment to the self defense aspects of the training.

[morphus]

Mat Bernius - "From a practicality standpoint, covering the sword (or at least a short stick), you can encorporate lessons about everything from club to knife. Plus it also feeds into open hand techniques."

Got to agree with that statement. I have extremely little experience of stick work. But i was able to see benefits from the small amount i did do. I would definately like to study Filipino stick arts.:cool:

[YODA]

Originally posted by Matt_Bernius
From the little bit I've learned about CKD on this forum it seems that encorporation of some concepts from the Filipino arts would be a great compliment to the self defense aspects of the training.


Agreed! I just hope whover decides to do just that doesn't do it in the all too familiar way i.e. Attend a few FMA seminars, buy a few videos then either start teaching it as an add-on or, even worse, suddenly claim that stick fighting was in there all along and they've "discovered" the hidden stick techniques the masters of old hid in the forms. :rolleyes:

[bigalexe]

i would like to correct my original question and i think this might clarify things, i was aiming at things like the staff for use of a baseball bat, pipe, wrench, or maybe even a pool cue. i was aiming at the short sword not the big katana to cover sharp objects like longer knives and maybe even an axe (3/4 hatchet not a battle axe people)

[Matt_Bernius]

bigalexe,

from the sound of things, provided that your CKD instructor supports this, you should consider eventually suplimenting your training with a Filipino martial art like Kali. You will find that the material that you can learn if you dedicate some time to it will cover exactly what you're looking for.

Who knows, you might find a great way to help encorporate that type of knowledge back in CKD. But I'd talk with your instructor first to understand what may be offered at your school to higher level students.

- Matt

[morphus]

I agree with Matt B - that you should talk to your instructor, they may do courses on weapons or teach them at a higher level(it depends upon the teacher).
I know we do baseball bat defence & knife defence but only very basic moves & only when you get to higher colour ranks.

Personally i feel, if the student wanted training i couldn't give him/her then i'd have no problem with them going else where to get it(in fact i might go with them) - as long as it doesn't contradict what i am trying to teach; The last thing an instructor wants is to be interupted in the middle of a drill demonstration, someone saying "oh you should'nt do it that way, i've been told...":rolleyes:

On the official CKD side, i would like to see some weapons introduced to the syllibus.:eek:

[lawman]

Weapons training as an addition would be a really useful tool if incorporated into the CKD syllabus at some stage.

The most practical weapon to train on is definately short sticks as in Kali.

I've seen a Kali student train on a punch bag with those sticks, and he could easily have taken out 4 guys with them. Something that can seldom be said of any martial artist in a real fight.

Additionally, police style batons are also a useful and practical tool.

It is very easy to adapt everyday objects into a stick of sorts, and thus cannot be ignored as unpractical.

Legally, breaking an opponent's forearm is much more acceptable than using a sharp edged weapon such as a knife.

The test for defence in law is whether the force used was reasonable.

With 4 big guys attacking you, hitting their attacking weapons (forearms) with a heavy stick is reasonable by most people's standards and one that I would really be grateful if CKD instructors could filter to the higher management.

[Matt_Bernius]

As an side question: how comfortable is CKD in encorporating non-Korean based material? I know different arts have varying views on maintaining the "purity" of the system. But CKD is an evolving art and I wonder if it's practitioners have any comments on how "free" the evolution is.

- Matt

[amiller127]

If it seems beneficial, CKDMAI would incorporate it if it came from another country, or even another planet.

We already incorporate studies done on Russian boxers to develop power in the punches. I know for a fact that GMC is always reading health periodicals etc to see if there are different ways of training to improve your health.

Headquarters gets info from NAPMA and MAIA and incorporates some of the advice into their classes.

So, to answer your question. If it is felt that something could be of benefit to CKD and we can incorporate it, then we will do so regardless of where it came from.

[Matt_Bernius]

Thanks amiller127. I was curious about that. I'm aware of some schools that have magically discovered "chinese short stick" for example. The wierd part was that all of the moves had Filipino names. It was just a case that the instructor couldn't seem to bear the thought of giving another art the credit it's due.

Also, I have to say that you're a great grass roots spokesperson for CKD.

- Matt

[Ad McG]

Weapons training is definitely useful. I do some Kali stick work at my club and it's really interesting to see how it all works. With kali, you start with sticks, then work down to knives and eventually open hand, all the techniques apply. Someone trains with sticks and knives for a while, imagine how sweet they will be with open hand using the same techniques? Also, as was mentioned before, they train so you can use anything like umbrellas or other objects that might come to hand, it's all the same techniques.
Plus, weapons training definitely gives you better awareness and peripheral vision. Anyone who has had sticks or anything similar flying around their head will know you become more aware of what is happening during a fight.