Step sparring

[JohnG]

Is there any point to step sparring? :confused:

Isn't it just part of what Bruce Lee called "the classical mess"?

I've been doing 1 step for years, but I honestly don't see any real benefit to doing it. Perhaps the 1 step I've been doing and have been shown is just c**p!

[Shaolin Dragon]

Step sparring is the bridge between learning a technique and applying it in combat. Simply learning techniques does not mean you will be able to apply them at the right time when fighting, so step sparring is a way to do this.

[JohnG]

Good point

[LilBunnyRabbit]

It works just fine so long as your opponent decides to throw that one particular technique, from stance, while you're in stance.

[Shaolin Dragon]

As I said, step sparring is designed so that we can learn one particular technique.

Think of weight training - you don't go into the gym and try to lift the heaviest weight. You start of with light weights and work your way up.

MA is no different.

[Thomas]

Step sparring provides a controlled environment for learning new techniques. If you always do them the same way, at the same speed, or from the same stance or angle, they really won't do too much for you. Here's some ideas to try to make them more effective:

(1) When first learning a new technique, do it slowly several times. As you get better, do it faster and faster until you are going at nearly an actual rate of speed for combat. Doing the technique once or twice won't help you. Do it 1000s of times.

(2) Make sure you practice the response from BOTH sides, left and right.

(3) Experiment using the technique againt the 'punch' from different angles... does it work, do you have to modify it, or should you use a different technique?

(4) Experiment with related attacks. Defence against a punch should work against a(n) (attempted) grab, push, choke, etc. Try your new step technique against a variety of attacks from a variety of angles.

(5) Once you have it down pretty well, on both sides and against a variety of angles and attacks... work out what happens if the opponent counters or reacts against it. Go through as many of the possible outcomes as you can and figure out how to react to them.

(6) Beyond this, take the step sparring techniques in other ways... try their effectiveness vs weapons of various sorts. Try them in different environments (wet, outside, crowded, multiple opponents, etc.)... and try them on you back, in a corner, seated, etc.

One simple step sparring technique can lead to a great deal of insight and practical application if taken seriously. If you 'just' learn them as requirements to do on a test and forget... they will not be useful.

[Tosh]

Brava Thomas!

90% Of people I see doing one step stick to the same old boring methods.

Why not introduce some danger? Why not get the pads on and actually try to whack the other guy? why not attempted it under certain cirumstances?

Back to wall?
Advancing attacker?
Multiple attackers? (i.e. Two techniques at once?)

One step is a great tool, it's only the limited imagination that halts it. Although 90% of the time it's lack of ability in the practioners case.

Q:"Why not try this?"
A:"I can't do it/I'm rubbish at it!"

Well start practising! :woo:

[Matt_Bernius]

Can someone breakdown what the term "step sparring" means? I have a vague idea but would like a more complete definition before weighing in.

- Matt

[Buxton TKD]

Some good points have been made above.

I feel step sparring is an important part of learning distance and focus. It also helps with your reactions and timing.

Tae Kwon

[Thomas]

Originally posted by Matt_Bernius
Can someone breakdown what the term "step sparring" means? I have a vague idea but would like a more complete definition before weighing in.

- Matt

Basic step sparring usually starts with two people facing eachother. One person throws a punch and the other responds with a previously taught technique. There is also 2-step sparring where the opponent throws two punches, and at a basic level allowing for a block/deflection/avoidance of the first attack (intended to make you respond from the weaker side). 3 step is the same but with three punches.The focus at a bvasic level is on the final technique (response).


Some people get the misconception that this is as far as it goes... and it can look a bit silly watching this at a slow pace and uniform responses. As I wrote above, we like to change the set up a bit and realy try out the techniques in a variety of manners.Disclaimer: This applies to my own school and experience !

[Artikon]

I view step sparring as a progresion from poomse.
As Thomas pointed out in his well written posts, they are excersises of controlled sparring.

This controls allows someone to learn how to work with a partner as well as work on the techniques that Thomas mentioned, and it sounds like we practice step sparring very simliar Thomas :)

The next step from step sparring would be free fighting. I think this is how the natural progression goes.
Learn techniques through poomse ---> continuation of technique working, but now with a partner, where it is controlled by you can notice timing, what works, what doesn't, what could put you in a bad position for another attack, etc . . . ---> Free fighting, taking what you know and have trained and put it to the test in a less controlled drill where you must react to the unknown, and suffer consequences if you do poorly.

[Shaolin Dragon]

I think you have oversimplified things there. The process is a continuous one, cycling back and forth as we learn new techniques and different ways of applying them. Also kata and shadowboxing apply as these teach us how to string moves together effectively; so the process is not so much a ladder as the roots of a tree, IMO.

[Artikon]

Ahhh, but a ladder has two directions, not just one.

I agree that you need to cycle through your different excersises, but I still feel the natural progression starts with the basic techniques learned from poomse, or even just line drills. At each stage you add or take away controls until you end up with free fighting.

Once you learn something else you can revisit step sparring or poomse to see how it applys, or even polish what you know more in those areas.

Just like learning to walk, learn to roll over, learn to crawl learn to walk. This doesn't mean we never re-visit rolling over. Heck I just did a falling class and we did lots of rolling around :D

[Matt_Bernius]

We do a slight varient of this in my program. It's a tier controlled response drill (note that this is a drill).

Two people square of. Person 1 (P1) is the attacker. Person 2 (P2) is the defender:

P1 throws a single technique, slowly and to it's full extension on P2. P2 watches and analyizes the technique. P1 resets and throws the exact same technique another time. Again P2 observes. P1 resets and throws the same technique again. This time P2 counters in time with a block/movement/disipation (this is the first level of the drill).

Both people reset. If P2 has countered in a satisfactory way the drill continues. Otherwise P2 goes back to the drawing board and tries different responses to P1's same attack, until P2 finds a satisfactory response. Then the parties reset and the drill continues.

P1 then throws the same first technique again. P2 responds in time. P1 then adds a second attack. P2 observes the second attack and then both reset. Like in the first cycle P2 observes the attack twice, with complete resets in between and on the third pass adds a block/movement/disipation. The two reset and provided that P2 has a satisfactory second response the drill continues.

Again P1 throws the same first attack. P2 responds in exactly the same manner. P1 then throws the same second attack. P2 responds in the same way he/she did to the second attack. P3 then throws a thrid attack. P2 observes. The same pattern is followed as before with the exception that on the third pass of the third attack P2 integrates a offensive technique with thier block.

While the description takes a lot of time, the actual drill moves pretty fast and allows students to begin to access some creativity. The drill can then tier out pretty easily. With each pass P2 can encorporate an attack into thier defense and P1 will have to counter. This is a slightly more complex version of the drill. You can also intergrate subtraction drills (ie. P2 can only use one arm or just legs and movement).

The great aspect of this is that it begins to get people used to exchanging and countering techniques in preparation for sparring. At the same time it's a great cooperative drill. And each pair of students can demonstrate the patterns that they came up with to the rest of the class letting individuals show off their creativity.

- Matt

[Thomas]

Matt_Bernius: Nice reply... I'm going to try something like that in class one of these days, it sounds like a good drill and definately will be a creative task.

Question: When they are responding to an attack, do they have a skillset to refer to or what do they create their response from? (This is the purpose of step sparring basically: to create that set of responses that are proven effective and to practice them.)

[Matt_Bernius]

Thomas,

Basically the first rule of our art that new students learn is:

"You block when you move and you move when you block"

So basically all of them understand that you get off the line of the attack while re-enforcing or dissipating with some form of block.

At the beginner level most people have basic punching and kicking. So the attacker (P1) is expected to throw a basic technique. The expectation of watching P1 throw a basic attack a few times is to give the defender (P2) a chance to mentally work out a basic defense/avoidance before they have to actually implement anything. Part of the trick is all of this is supposed to happen slowly.

The great part about this is P1 is also learning how to reorient and continue an attack. So they're not getting into the habit of throwing a single technique. Rather they're working on assembling a combination of simple techniques the meet the needs of the situation. Thats the reason for letting P1 attack three times before P2 counter attacks. It's also forces P2 to learn to move and dissipate. And it takes the drill one step away from sparring, making it easier for the beginning stundent to apply the basics that they have.

Now you don't necessarily need to go three technique deep. And yes, if there is a good "canned response" for a technique the student can use that as well (as long as it fits to within the way the drill is set up). It can also be collaborative with each person in the pair helping each other. Or if one pair is ok with being singled out the entire class can suggest what to do next.

- Matt

[Thomas]

Nice post... like I said, I'm going to try this drill at class soon! I think pretty much, TKD step sparring and the learning style you mention in your posts are 2 ways aimed at achieving the same goal... it is nice to have new ways to do things.

For anyone who doesn't feel like step sparring in your TKD classes, try some of the tips that were mentioned on this post. Step sparring does NOT have to be a "waste of time"... it is in the sytem for a reason and should be exploited!

Anyone else have some suggestions?

Good training.

[Matt_Bernius]

Thanks for the feedback Thomas. This is one of the drill that my Sifu introduced me to that I think is a great tool for developing both self defense and sparring skills (especially in new students).

- Matt

[littlebird]

I like Vunak's methods.
He actually will have groups of pairs going through
repetitive motions while he beats a TomTom to pace them.

Over and over until no thought is needed.

Of course then the next step is to assimilate this newly acquired action into a more complete repetoire.

The old adage "Practice makes perfect!" is true.

Just like a batting cage. Give me 30 hard balls, outside, inside, low, and high. Give me 50 curve balls. Now some sliders.

[peacfulwarrior]

I think step sparring is necessary to practice your technique mainly being used as a training tool. Believe me it's better then hitting air. Also TKD is not the only one that has this in it's training. The same method is used in Judo, Aikido, Karate and others, basically one uponent strikes and one defends.

[Shaolin Dragon]

Yes, I think most MA uses it, but doesn't call it step sparring.

[Thomas]

Originally posted by Matt_Bernius
Basically the first rule of our art that new students learn is:

"You block when you move and you move when you block"

So basically all of them understand that you get off the line of the attack while re-enforcing or dissipating with some form of block.

At the beginner level most people have basic punching and kicking. So the attacker (P1) is expected to throw a basic technique. The expectation of watching P1 throw a basic attack a few times is to give the defender (P2) a chance to mentally work out a basic defense/avoidance before they have to actually implement anything. Part of the trick is all of this is supposed to happen slowly.

The great part about this is P1 is also learning how to reorient and continue an attack. So they're not getting into the habit of throwing a single technique. Rather they're working on assembling a combination of simple techniques the meet the needs of the situation. Thats the reason for letting P1 attack three times before P2 counter attacks. It's also forces P2 to learn to move and dissipate. And it takes the drill one step away from sparring, making it easier for the beginning stundent to apply the basics that they have.

Now you don't necessarily need to go three technique deep. And yes, if there is a good "canned response" for a technique the student can use that as well (as long as it fits to within the way the drill is set up). It can also be collaborative with each person in the pair helping each other. Or if one pair is ok with being singled out the entire class can suggest what to do next.

- Matt


We've done this in class a few times now and it works great. It really adds a new element to the one-steps. We started out using it against the normal step punch and then tried it against other hand techniques, then against kicks, then against attempts at a single and double leg take-down. Later we used it to work on defending against two attackers. I love this drill and have glued it into my play-book. Thanks Matt!

[Matt_Bernius]

Thanks for the update! Glad to hear that it's working for you!

- Matt

[Thomas]

Here's something we diod in class last night with the step sparring:

For 3 step sparring
Basic idea: attacker throws 3 punches in a row and defender blocks the first 2 and reacts on the third. Try out your responses the first time against slow attacks... next time faster and faster until it is at close to full speed. (See Matt's posts above)

It can be changed a bit by:

(1) Try it with 3 fast jabs and see how your defences and reactions work
(2) Try with 2 jabs and a cross
(3) Try it with a jab, cross and low front kick
(4) Try it with a grab, cross

We had a lot of fun with this last night... it really forces you to work your footwork and choice of techniques (especially adding the kick... rear leg and lead leg can really change your responses.) Try it out!

[Din]

you will never get anywhere without the basics and thats what step sparring teaches you. once you have learnt the techniques then you can modify it to suite the situations

[LeadLegger]

Is there any point to step sparring? :confused:

Isn't it just part of what Bruce Lee called "the classical mess"?

I've been doing 1 step for years, but I honestly don't see any real benefit to doing it. Perhaps the 1 step I've been doing and have been shown is just c**p!
You've been doing it for years??? At my school, step sparring was just a way to get used to Tae Kwon Do. It's over at Green Belt, I think. Then real sparring :love:

[chungmoomonkey]

do we have to cencer crap here lol i like 1 steps i think they are more of the art part of martial arts cuz i can be very creative for instence i have one were i jump onto the person and do a arm bar in mid air witch i abvously wouldnt do on the street but it looks pretty i do it in a movie someday. lol

at my school we do one steps but after u reach brown belt u hav eto make em up and t blakck belt u can be very creative with weopons and differant attacks ( instead of just punches and down strikes).

[Tosh]

do we have to cencer crap


No, but using good English and spelling wouldn't go amiss. :D

Try not to be so lazy in future, it hurts my head.

[Thomas]

You've been doing it for years??? At my school, step sparring was just a way to get used to Tae Kwon Do. It's over at Green Belt, I think. Then real sparring :love:

Take a look at some of the suggestions posted here, especially the stuff brought up by Matt Bernius and myself. We are trying to show some ways that step sparring can be used as a tool for developing practical techniques. Dropping step sparring at green belt seems like a waste to me... if you're going to drop it, why bother with it at all. On the other hand, if you are going to use step sparring, shouldn't you try to get the most out of it that you can?

Granted, if a student is focusing more on tournament skills, then they probably won't spend as much time on step sparring. I persoanlly find step sparring a good way to practice new self defence skills, reinforce old ones, and mix up new and old in practice.
Good training

[Thomas]

We got into some step sparring last Thursday with some fairly new green belts... they've been in TKD for a while and are getting a pretty good handle on the basics, so...

We did 1-steps from a fighting stance and used a fast, straight jab with retraction. This will really demonstrate whether your 1 steps will work against an opponent trying to hit you. The students had to vary up their normal responses and we worked quite a while on the telltale signs of an impending jab and practiced avoiding it and/or countering. Great class. Then we added a quick cross to the retracting jab... even more fun. Try it out in your school and see how it works for you!

Any other tips on using 1,2, and 3 steps in a good way in class?

[Smokemare]

Classic TKD one step is a good starting point I think. Put you can put more into it. In our organisations 2 Dan's and above can attack with any technique, hand or foot. This does make you think ab it more but it's still got the same flaws as classic one-step.

An interesting exercise for any instructors out there is to get your students to try using their favourite one-step defence against:-

*A Hooking punch, followed through with the weight committed.

*An Uppercut, to the chin, as you might expect someone on the street to try.

*A cross with the weight committed.

Normally when we step forwards with a walking stance punch we halt as we complet the stance, this won't happen n the street I don't think. Another layer you can bolt on is if the attacker get the oppurtunity to strike with their second hand during the defence - they should. It makes people think a bit more about where they want their defence to take them - to the open side or th closed side.

One step is a good basis for self-defence, but it's not perfect by a long shot. Just my thoughts, it's entirely subjective of course.

~Smokemare

[Thomas]

Great suggestions and really fun in class (We do those and also do two hooks sometimes) . The distinction between just "lobbing" the strike in and putting some weight and movement behind it will give you another way of seeing if your techniques work. Nice post.

[Smokemare]

Thanks Thomas, we were practising this on Tuesday night. It's surprising how some of the classic one-step defences can be compromised when some weight and commitment is added to the punch.

~Smokemare

[Thomas]

Thanks Thomas, we were practising this on Tuesday night. It's surprising how some of the classic one-step defences can be compromised when some weight and commitment is added to the punch.

~Smokemare

That statement needed to be emphasized!!!!!!!

Just "doing" one steps can be a waste of time... so use them as effectively as possible! Good post!

[ap Oweyn]

Here's my take on step sparring. And it's related closely to my take on a lot of other training methods.

The following was how I learned. I don't mean to generalize to most schools. We practiced movements in an overly idealized setting (poomse, step sparring, line practice, etc.) And then we moved directly into sparring. Usually, it seemed like the gulf between one and the other was two wide to bridge during an actual sparring match. In other words, we'd trained applying (for example) a ridge hand. When we were set for it and we knew the other person's attack. Everything was prearranged. And then there we were in a free sparring scenario. There was no gradual progresson from idealized to freeform. Students were expected to be able to magically apply techniques when the situation in no way resembled the situation in which they learned those techniques.

I'd advocate essentially what Thomas and Matt Bernius have. That you establish the ideal setting, but then add more variables, remove more constraints, and move toward a more chaotic environment. Think about a really simple one step. The opponent punches. You block and reverse punch to the ribs. The adaptations that you're going to have to make when the opponent is coming full bore and retracting the arm and elbow rather than leaving them out there are going to be significant. Too significant to figure out and execute as you're sparring. It would be better to do the traditional one step, put gear on, try it, try it with different targets, add another step, etc.

My thoughts anyway.


Stuart

[hedgehogey]

Train with a dead pattern, get a dead technique.

Training without resistance leads you nowhere.

[Thomas]

Train with a dead pattern, get a dead technique.

Training without resistance leads you nowhere.

I agree... hence the reason for the thread. Did you read through the suggestions? What did you think? If you were going to give some advice to those of us who teach step sparring (usually as a requirement within the system, which cannot be changed by little old me), how would you do it so as to be effective?

[hedgehogey]

Well i'd make it truly sparring.

That is, add resistance and footwork. It's sparring, but with a limited goal. Other examples of this include jab sparring and pummeling.

[Thomas]

Well i'd make it truly sparring.

For me, step sparring is taking elements from sparring and practicing them in a controlled manner so that you can get better at them... and so you can see what techniques work or don't.

Sometimes you will find a technique which doesn't seem to work for you. If you practice it at a slower speed, increase the speed and power, eventually it may work for you at normal speeds. If it doesn't, then drop it.

I admit that there are schools out there that use "step sparring" as filler... lob in a set attack and use a set defence without ever trying it out with full speed and intent. To me, this is a waste of time. We have step sparring as a requirement, therefore I will use it as best I can.

After we work a couple of techniques in the step sparring manner (various speeds, power levels, angles of attacks, etc.), we do ask students to try out their new techniques in a normal sparring session (which gets into the need for varying sparring rules and levels of power as mentioned in other posts).

[Thomas]

Here's another thing to try out in step sparring:

The attacker will throw certain techniques, agreed upon beforehand, e.g. 1 cross (punch), 1 jab, 1 roundhouse kick (low), 1 roundhouse kick (mid), 1 front kick (low), 1 front kick (mid), etc.

The defender will avoid the attack (no blocks, just with footwork and avoidance. Defend against each technique a few times

The defender will do the same again, but will add a counter to it (depending on level, a single attack, a combo, or a takedown)

After a bit of this, the attacker may mix up the techniques from the previous ones (no specific order and no warning)

Eventually allow attacker to attack using any technique.


Area of opportunity teaching: emergency blocking/jamming/absorbing blows when the footwork "doesn't do it".