[Capoeira] self defence

[Jordan]

I know Capoeira was a defence style used by slaves, but is it practical defence?

[wayofthedragon]

Yes.

[Kof_Andy]

Is great surprise technique aswell.

[Baqueta]

It really depends who you are, really. Like all martial arts, it has its weaknesses and strengths. I think it is, and have used it in a few brawls, but not everyone has lived in a violent area like me.

[Orange...?]

I don't want to be the know-it-all, but:

In the 1600's, African slaves in Brazil created a type of martial art called Capoeira. Slave owners forbid the slaves ti practice this art because they were afraid the slaves would becom powerful. To practice their skills, the slavesdisguised them as a type of acrobatic dance. Today, people practice capoeira using drums and other musical instruments.

[Baqueta]

But you missed a few facts. The slaves practiced a very strange form of capoeira, slow, and with no acrobatics. It wasn't called capoeira then, though. It was merely a hodge-podge of different African arts. It's like some people from this part of Africa knew how to fight well with their legs, other people from this other part knew good sweeps and takedowns (batuque), and then this other group knew how to play the atabaque (the drum-- there was no berimbau or pandeiro back then). But it didn't look anything like it does now, just like the capoeira practiced 100 years ago is nothing like the capoeira practiced 50 years ago, which is nothing ike the capoeira practcied now. and when the slaves were freed, capoeira lost all of its traditions and became outlawed in all of Brazil. Contrary to popular belief, the practitioners of the art back then did not put acrobatics and flips in to disguise it as a dance. It became even more brutal, with a strange ginga that looked like boxing steps, and no more than 15 moves (now there are probably around 200 moves with countless techniques). Even if the people disguised as dance back then, it still would have been outlawed because the authorities didn't want any African dance or fights or music in Brazil. It wasn't until recently (the last 50 years) that capoeira got the acrobatics (though they were most certainly there, just not part of capoeira). And it is still used as a fight in many parts of brazil. The street rodas in Bahia are still really brutal with EXTREMELY good players plyaing and kicking ass, but all with good fun.

Yeah, I don't want to be a know it all either. *sigh*... as goes life.

[Orange...?]

Nice. You're a Know-it-all! lol :p
Nice info tho.

[nicolo]

self-defence in terms of what situations? You need to break it down to what type of opponent or opponents you might be up against, where you will be fighting, terrain, weapons, close quarter grappling situations, etc etc.

any truth to the old stories of capoeiristas slicing opponents with razor blades hidden between their toes?

[Baqueta]

I could give you a whole bunch of stories of capoeiristas, some I've heard first hand. To answer your question, Mestre Pastinha has been noted as saying in his younger days he put nails in his shoes so that when he would kick it would also puncture. But I don't know if that's all too truthful, but it could be.

[Orange...?]

Uuuuu... :eek: That gotta hurt.

[WingChun Lawyer]

Originally posted by Baqueta
And it is still used as a fight in many parts of brazil. The street rodas in Bahia are still really brutal with EXTREMELY good players plyaing and kicking ass, but all with good fun.

Yeah, I don't want to be a know it all either. *sigh*... as goes life.

I don´t really know much about capoeira, but could you tell me something about angola capoeira? There is a gym close to my home, and I would like to check it out - it is supposed to be hard core, fighting capoeira, right?

Thanks!

[Baqueta]

Originally posted by WingChun Lawyer
I don´t really know much about capoeira, but could you tell me something about angola capoeira? There is a gym close to my home, and I would like to check it out - it is supposed to be hard core, fighting capoeira, right?

Thanks!

Angola isn't really a hardcore fighting style. It is simply is just capoeira at its supposedly most traditional form (controversy ensues). It does a lot of ritual and is generally much slower. It doesn't mean you will become a bad fighter studying it, it just means it will probably take longer. But the movements are very strength oriented and good for other martial arts.

[shuyun3]

the jinga keeps you out of the opponent's centerline while readying you for any number of attacks. that has to count for something

[bad eddy]

Actually capoeira angola is a street worthy style as well just ask Mestre Cobra Manse( I think i'm spelling it right). I have been practicing it for about 5 years now and I have also taken kung fu, taekwon do and a few others in the navey but my love is capoeira. If you'd like some more info you can visit our web page simply go to yahoo. com and type in capoeira St. Louis. our site will come up and all the info. Our head is non other than mestre jelon who is a legend in capoeira circles and he has placed Borracha over us. This guy was featured in combat martial arts one of the few mags dedicated to practical martial arts.

[Baqueta]

That's cool, Mestre Jelon is also my mestre.

About the worthiness of angola (if there even is such topic), most angola schools teach in a slower, more intuitive way so that the capoeira qualities are emphasized over the technical. So in the short run a pure regional person will have an advantage, but in the end it all evens out.

[colirio]

While my main focus has been on training regional, angola has also become a staple in my capoeira diet. Regional, I find, moves too fast to properly train the basic techniques of malandragem, so, I feel that all players must eventually train angola to complete their fundamentals.

My utmost respect to you angola players that have kept these traditions from disappearing entirely! We regional players owe you alot! ;)

[Baqueta]

I totally agree with you. But I think that there is only one type of capoeira, and angola and regional are just different ways of playing capoeira to different toques. But alot of people don't believe in that and teach either pure regional or pure angola, not embracing the other aspects abound in the art. So, just for the record, I'll say that I train in one capoeira, and that I understand both ways of playing. But I don't shun or talk badly about people that don't believe in what I do, and they are al mostly good in their own right, I just think a person should understand all of capoeira.

[bad eddy]

Baqueta where do you train at and are you familiar with the st louis school?

[valetudo74]

The problem I see with how Capoeira is taught, at least here in the United States, is that the "luta" or the "fight" is not taught as Mestre Bimba originally taught it. What most people call Regional today is not really Regional, rather "Capoeira Contemporanea." Contemporary Capoeira is an eclectic form of Capoeira that blends Angola and Regional together with a major emphasis upon using Floreios. Don't get me wrong, floreios are great for demonstrations, however, I don't plan on using floreios during a fight, and that is exactly what I see being emphasised here in the States.

In addition, Contemporanea uses the bateria of Angola meshed together with a Regional roda. Regional traditionally only uses one berimbau, with two pandeiros. Angola rodas utilize 3 berimbaus, atabaque, pandeiros, and if available, reco-reco and agogo. There's nothing wrong with advancing the art, but if you're wanting to stick to true tradition, then you have to look at how the rodas are being formed today.

To me, the art has been watered down here in the States due to the over-emphasis placed upon learning floreios. There have been numerous times where I've waited patiently for someone to complete a folha seca or mortal, and I catch them with a Martelo right to the face as they land. My instructor has in the past always taught us never to "overtrain the floreio" because you will get caught by someone who is perceptive. Many of our young students fell into that trap.

I very rarely perform any type of floreio in the roda; I prefer to use basics like esquivas, vingativa, negativa, etc. to dodge and counterattack. Those to me are the more realistic techniques one could use in a self defense situation. I don't know what it is about this generation that has placed such influence on learning acrobatics over practical self-defense, especially in Capoeira.

The school I trained at had Mestre Deputado, one of Bimba's original students, conduct workshops where he has shown actual self defense tech.'s that Bimba taught. They were simple and straight to the point. No floreios, just simple tactics. There are also weapons defenses taught in Regional, but Deputado doesn't teach anything having to do with weapons until a student has earned the right to learn those techniques. He wants to make sure the student will not use the techniques in a malevolent manner. He himself said during a discussion forum during the workshop that what is being taught in the U.S. is not the original form of what Bimba taught in Bahia.

I believe one of the few Mestres here in North America that is teaching anything remotely close to Regional is Mestre Barrao/Axe Capoeira. He keeps the traditional teachings alive, while teaching his students the practical self defense applications of Capoeira. As mentioned earlier, Mestre Jelon is another Mestre who I have heard is very strict about maintaining the Capoeira traditions and teaching Regional as he learned from Bimba.

Regarding the "navalha de pe," yes, many "maltas" or street gangs in brazil used the straight razor stuck between their toes. One of my friends came back from brazil with a plastic navalha (straight razor) that is used as a trainer. The navalha is also used in stand up fighting and is very, very dangerous when used in close quarters. The straight razor was the thugs' weapon of choice when they ran rampant in Bahia and Rio de Janeiro.

[Baqueta]

Good response. Contemporanea has WAY too much focus on floreios. My instuctor was taugh a different type of contemporanea (from Mestre Jelon) but he still tells us that we should train every singele aspect of our game to the highest degree, and to never over train some areas, especially in the case of floreios.

and bad eddy, I am familiar with the st. louis school, but being that I am from california, I've never been there.

[M3inline6]

My mestre is a mixture of both angola & regional, and he doesn't even like to get into the issue of dividing Capoeira. We don't play traditional Angola (really, really low to the ground and slow) or pure regional (lots of acrobatics, fast, and not much of a "close" game). It's a balanced mixture. He teaches us everything! I respect him very much because he doesn't embellish a bunch of floreios. Au sem mao and a few other movements are as acrobatic as we'll get in terms of floreios. He really emphasizes alot of practical movements.

We actually just had Mestre Parafina's batizado yesterday in Los Angeles. My mestre (Batata) was there, along w/ Marcelo, and a few other mestres. We also had some great Instructors......Malandro, Paniera, Versace', Taka, etc.