Recovery Times (or how can I train more without detriment)

[Tartovski]

Ok, so here's my problem. I want to a)get bigger/stronger and b)still be able to train kungfu.

The problem with this is the style of exercise at kungfu (very high rep bodyweight exercises) is in complete opposition to what I do when lifting (high intensity, low volume training). So I find that if i train one aspect properly I'm always compromising the other one. ie If I go to the Gym on monday and lift big heavy weights (4-6 rep range) I am much too sore to go to Kungfu the next day and do several sets of high-rep exercises (30-50), or vice versa without wiping myself out for a few days after.

So far I've tried to limit the muscle fatigue/delayed onset muscle soreness by A) using a low volume programme and B) using contrast showers, the latter has been remarkable i must say. However, I'm still not able to train as much as i'd like - ideally twice a week gym, three times a week kungfu.
I've looked into post-workout recovery nutrition to and tried protein shakes etc but that seems to make sod all difference (and the whole "eat within 1 hour or else!!" seems to not have great science behind it anyway), but i'm not sure what else I can do. Obviously I could just Man-up and train through the soreness, but i'm guessing that way leads madness, fatigue and is probably counterproductive to muscle growth.

[inthespirit]

Your favorite MAP member here! :D

Are you training for size or strength? How important is size to you?

[Tartovski]

Size is kinda important (hey, we all want to look good naked, right?) but I'd rather train for strength and get bigger as a bi-product, than train for size specifically - hence I do the big powerlifts in the 4-6 range.

[february]

Apologies if this appears to be an overly simplified statement but, I think you need to compromise. Accept that if you want to train Kung Fu the way you want to that you'll have to make compromises in your mass and vice versa (training to get bigger/stronger may compromise your kung fu) - strike a balance. It all depends on what your goals are, bear in mind that in order to achieve one, you may have to compromise on another. Also size doesn't necessarily equate to strength, so I guess no matter what you do, you won't need to make concessions with regards to your strength.

[Tartovski]

Well you might be right on that one february, that is the conclusion I'm coming to myself. However, if I don't have to compromise, then I won't!

[inthespirit]

I used to do this program with my KB's that lets you train 6-7 times per week. Not sure how adaptable it is to a gym equipment type program. Basically, what you do is everyday pick 4-6 exercises out of however many (mine were all compound), then every day you emphasize only one of the exercise i.e. do more sets/reps, and switch this emphasized exercise every day. But, generally do more sets with lower reps and never go to failure, in fact stop at around 70-80% of your max.

I got this program of the "Russian KB Challenge" DVD (Pavel Tsatsouline), works quite well, but is more geared towards strength. Also, there were some rules in the program specific to KB's I think, and you were supposed to finish your work out in 20-30 mins, not sure why, but I guess maybe something to do with muscle fatigue and or cardiovascular effects.

It worked quite well for me, strength gains were quick and it saves a lot of time. But yeah, I don't know, I haven't seriously done any weights in over 2 years nows, so I'm not really well informed in the subject these days. Anyway, give it a shot, maybe you'll like it.

[Yohan]

Hm . . . I'm in the same boat that you are in Tartovski. I'm trying to work in a few max effort days in my training routine. I've got a personal trainer who I'm working with (I'm not a paying client so I don't get the full fledged deal) who helps me work all this stuff in.

One of the first things you should try to do is group your max effort days with your Kung Fu training. Another thing is, try to keep the number of lifts you do in the gym to a minimum (we usually do 3-5 exercises). Mix it up a little bit too, and don't do all your most demanding lifts in one day.. Don't do squats, deadifts, clean and jerk, and chinups all in the same day. Try to mix it up and just do a few things, like DL, BP, rows, and some kettlebell swings (that would be a good max effort day for me).

Additionally, you shouldn't be getting sore after lifting, provided you've been doing it regularly for a couple of weeks. Make sure you are warming up and down and stretching. I personally use a biofoam roller before and after our sessions, along with mobility drills to warm up.

Try using protein shakes in addition to some gatorade. My trainer tells me I should get 60g of carbs right after a workout, so I generally sip a Gatorade whilst I'm working out.

[Tartovski]

One of the first things you should try to do is group your max effort days with your Kung Fu training.

Can you explain what you mean by this?

Another thing is, try to keep the number of lifts you do in the gym to a minimum (we usually do 3-5 exercises). Mix it up a little bit too, and don't do all your most demanding lifts in one day.. Don't do squats, deadifts, clean and jerk, and chinups all in the same day.

I do Bench press, squats, either seated row or deadlift, and hamstring curls - so pretty minimum!!

And why not do all the demanding lifts in one day? Kungfu workout is full body, so even if only did legs one day at the gym, and upper body the next, i'd still be unable to do half the kungfu workout depending on what weight training day I'd just done...

Also from what I read you are better off hitting everybody part twice a week, than going harder on seperate bodyparts once a week if you want to maximise gains and reduce recovery times.

Additionally, you shouldn't be getting sore after lifting, provided you've been doing it regularly for a couple of weeks. Make sure you are warming up and down and stretching. I personally use a biofoam roller before and after our sessions, along with mobility drills to warm up.

Hey, if you aren't sore - surely you aren't working hard enough? ;)
I normally fine afterwards, then achy the next day - so classic DOMS for me.

Not used a foam roller myself yet, though I have heard them being good - maybe i should get one?

[flaming]

I do breakdancing but find im in a simiar situation. I have decreased my volume and increased my frequency 5 days a week, once a day 3 reps of 5, I would do 3 reps of 3 but im still learning correct form, before I increase the load. I find soft tissue and mobility work throughtout the day helps, especially massaging my upper traps calves and working on my ankle mobility, and throasic mobility. After doing some exercises that internally rotate the humeri, external rotator and lower trapezius exercises feel like heaven.

[Tartovski]

I do 2 sets per exercise: 1 warm up set of 15 (50% load) and 1 full weight work out set.

Which from what I read is all you really need to do.
http://www.exrx.net/WeightTraining/LowVolumeTraining.html

[Yohan]

Can you explain what you mean by this?

For me, a max effort day would be something like:

Chinup negatives
BP
Face pulls
Single leg squats or bar complex

Chinup negatives are a very hard lift, so I give everything on that lift, and by the end of my workout, I should be pretty well shot.

I do Bench press, squats, either seated row or deadlift, and hamstring curls - so pretty minimum!!

Yeah that should be fine.

And why not do all the demanding lifts in one day? Kungfu workout is full body, so even if only did legs one day at the gym, and upper body the next, i'd still be unable to do half the kungfu workout depending on what weight training day I'd just done...

What I'm trying to say here is - don't spend all your energy at the gym if you expect to perform at Kung Fu class. If I did squat, DL, chins, BP and dips one day at the gym, I'd be at 50% in the fight gym. I don't want that. I'd rather have 100% at the fight gym, and 50% at the weight gym. Your objectives may be different.

Also from what I read you are better off hitting everybody part twice a week, than going harder on seperate bodyparts once a week if you want to maximise gains and reduce recovery times.

That is the impression I get from my trainer, and it's usually how we do things. Our workout schedule probably looks like this:

Mon: Max effort lift day
Tue: Agility, conditioning
Wed: Max effort lift day
Thu: Agility, conditioning
Fri: Max effort lift day

Hey, if you aren't sore - surely you aren't working hard enough? ;)
I normally fine afterwards, then achy the next day - so classic DOMS for me.

Not used a foam roller myself yet, though I have heard them being good - maybe i should get one?

Once I'm in to it, I don't get sore at all - I just feel a little week the day afterwards, so we are probably talking about the same thing here.

I highly recommend the foam roller. I try to use mine every day. It will help increase pain tolerance too.

[Tartovski]

For me, a max effort day would be something like:

Ok... so max effort day is where I do the big lifts at the gym. And you say i should group those with Kungfu?
Do you mean I should do max effort at the gym, and kungfu on the same day?

What I'm trying to say here is - don't spend all your energy at the gym if you expect to perform at Kung Fu class. If I did squat, DL, chins, BP and dips one day at the gym, I'd be at 50% in the fight gym. I don't want that. I'd rather have 100% at the fight gym, and 50% at the weight gym. Your objectives may be different.

Right got you. That pretty much sums my my original dilemna!
I think at the moment i'm more interested in making gains in the gym as it's newer to me, so i'm finding it more fun - I've been doing kungfu for so long that any progress is S L O W, whereas with the weight training I make gains every session, which is very good motivation!

Once I'm in to it, I don't get sore at all - I just feel a little week the day afterwards, so we are probably talking about the same thing here.

Think so. I don't get sore doing the weights (apart from the "burn" from lifting) but i do get sore the next day - the normal post exercise soreness.

I highly recommend the foam roller. I try to use mine every day. It will help increase pain tolerance too.

Pain tolerence? really? how so?

[TMA]

What is your exact workout schedule as you may well be overtraining if you are not recovering. Post up your training days (including MA) time spent, reps/sets rest time, no of exercises per muscle and grouping of muscle groups.

That way we can see how best to advise you. It is certainly possible to train in MA and gain muscle size at the same time, but you have to train like an athlete and not a bodybuilder.

[Tartovski]

For the Gym I do:
warm up - 5mins on a cross trainer to get the blood pumping.
Bench Press
Squats
Seated Row (or deadlifts)
Hamstring curls
For each I do exercise I do a warm up set (50% weight, 15 reps), then a 2min rest and then one workout set (heavy as i can go, 4-6reps)
then warm down, and stretch. normally done within an hour.

Kungfu is all bodyweight training. it's hard to say the exact number of reps /sets as it varies so much. Last wednesday (which is by far the easiest workout) was:

15 pushups, alternate leg changes, squats, crunches
1 min continuous punching (with stance changes)
20 pushups, alternate leg changes, squats, crunches
1 min continuous punching (with stance changes)
25 pushups, alternate leg changes, squats, crunches, reverse situps
1 min continuous punching (with stance changes)
20 pushups, alternate leg changes, squats, crunches, reverse situps
1 min continuous punching (with stance changes)
15 pushups, alternate leg changes, squats, crunches, reverse situps
1 min continuous punching (with stance changes)
10 finger pressups, alternate leg changes, squat jumps, jack knives, reverse situps.
Stretch
Then the actual class of walking techniques, pad work, sparring and/or forms!

Tuesdays/saturdays it'll be over double that for the work out. Sometimes we'll concerntrate on a specific body part so it'll be a full body work out like above (but higher reps) then several sets of press-ups in different combinations, or squats in different combo's etc.
(I can elaborate on this more if you like, but just think of a very hard 20min circuits style bodywork workout, sometimes doing sets of 50reps)

Kungfu is on tuesdays (90mins), wednesday (75mins), saturdays (120+mins) -and i'd like to make all sessions if i can. Then I try to get to the Gym whenever I can around those days. ie whenever i'm not too achy. Or if i've missed a kungfu session for whatever reason, i'll go to the gym and then do whatever kungfu session i can get to next if i'm not too achy.

It is certainly possible to train in MA and gain muscle size at the same time, but you have to train like an athlete and not a bodybuilder.

AFAIK I'm training powerlifting stlyee for strength, not bodybuilder stylee for size.

[g-bells]

experiment with working the major muscles hvy only once per week.
but in my oppinion you need to experiment and find what works best for you individually. it may take a little time but what works for someone else may not work for you. listen to your body, when it tells you to rest then rest.

hope this helps

[Yohan]

Ok... so max effort day is where I do the big lifts at the gym. And you say i should group those with Kungfu?
Do you mean I should do max effort at the gym, and kungfu on the same day?

Yes, that is the advice that has been given to me. Another thing that I've found works very well (if you can structure it that way) is to lift after practice.

Pain tolerence? really? how so?

Example - you've got a pressure point on the outside of your thigh. When you roll on one of those things, you put all your body weight right on that point and it hurts like crazy, but after doing it for a few weeks, the pain isn't nearly as bad - you get the same thing on various parts of your body (trigger points maybe)?

Were I you, I would try to lift either Tue, Thur, Sat, or Mon, Wed, Sat.

[Tartovski]

Example - you've got a pressure point on the outside of your thigh. When you roll on one of those things, you put all your body weight right on that point and it hurts like crazy, but after doing it for a few weeks, the pain isn't nearly as bad - you get the same thing on various parts of your body (trigger points maybe)?

That would kinda make sense actually. Would work on the same principle of how a foam roller is supposed to work. Read this:
http://www.t-nation.com/readTopic.do?id=475832


TMA: any advise now I've posted my schedule?

[Yohan]

That would kinda make sense actually. Would work on the same principle of how a foam roller is supposed to work. Read this:
http://www.t-nation.com/readTopic.do?id=475832


TMA: any advise now I've posted my schedule?

It's essentially a foam roller, but instead of foam, it's a big piece of PVC pipe with an inch of foam on top of it.

[TMA]

Ok your actual weights routine doesn't look too bad.

If im correct your are doing basic compound exercises for low reps and heavy weight which is fine. But if you are doing this for each bodypart more than once a week it might well be too much, especially when coupled with your kung fu training.

Also split the bodyparts up. Although kung fu training is a whole bodyworkout done more than once a week its intensity is not the same a a weight training workout which taxes the central nervous system more. And doing two heavy weights whole body workouts and 3 whole body kungfu workout will probably lead to overtraining.

You need to do more of a warmup than 1 set of 15 reps. You need to build up to a max set gradually. You may even want to lower your rep range for a max set to the 3-5 range to train more for strength rather than size, although you will still gain size.

One of the best sites ive seen is defrancosfitness.com
Have a good look through that site and in particular the westside for skinny bastards articles.

As you are kung fu training on Tuesday Wednesday and Saturday, I would do the weights workout Sunday, Monday and Thursday using the WSFSB1 routine at the above site. Do Max Effort Upper Body on Sunday, Max Effort Lower Body on Monday and Repetitions (upper or lower depending on what you want to concetrate on, but probably lower body given your description of kungfu workouts) on Thursday.

You also need to look at your nutrition and make sure you are getting enough calories as your are training almost everyday. Also don't drop the post workout nutrition shake as it does help with recovery and use these both after weights and kung fu workouts. As you are not concerned with fat loss make sure you get enough carbs 1-2 hours before your weights and kung fu workouts to give you enough energy and also look into some anti-catabolics like Glutamine before and after workouts.

Also make sure you get enough sleep.

Hopefully this will help you on your goals

[Tartovski]

Some clarifications/questions:

If im correct your are doing basic compound exercises for low reps and heavy weight which is fine.

Yup. that's right, all big compound exercises.

Also split the bodyparts up. Although kung fu training is a whole bodyworkout done more than once a week its intensity is not the same a a weight training workout which taxes the central nervous system more. And doing two heavy weights whole body workouts and 3 whole body kungfu workout will probably lead to overtraining.

Ok... that makes sense. I've heard of CNS fatigue, is that what you mean?

You need to do more of a warmup than 1 set of 15 reps. You need to build up to a max set gradually. You may even want to lower your rep range for a max set to the 3-5 range to train more for strength rather than size, although you will still gain size.

Can I ask why a general warm-up on a cross trainer and then a exercise specific warm up set is insufficient?
Surely (and i'm being simplistic i know) if i do more warm up sets, that's just going to be more work which will leave me more fatiqued? I thought the entire point of low volume training was to reduce your sets to a bare minimum?

You also need to look at your nutrition and make sure you are getting enough calories as your are training almost everyday. Also don't drop the post workout nutrition shake as it does help with recovery and use these both after weights and kung fu workouts. As you are not concerned with fat loss make sure you get enough carbs 1-2 hours before your weights and kung fu workouts to give you enough energy and also look into some anti-catabolics like Glutamine before and after workouts

I do make sure I eat well before workouts/training as i hate being unable to train hard due to not eating. As for post-workout nutrition, I found this article that says alot about how needed it really is:
http://www.t-nation.com/readTopic.do?id=659666

dunno how good the studies are it mentions as i've not had time to look at them properly, but it's quite interesting.

Also make sure you get enough sleep.

That is an issue for me, sadly. I quite often suffer from insomnia and it's a real pain!

[TMA]

Well if you are not getting enough sleep then your body isn't getting enough time to repair so that could be one of your main problems.

The reason I say you need more than one warm up set is because you need to build up to your max set. Start off light and build up gradually, you are warming up, not trying to fatigue your muscles. low volum training means to reduce the number of 'Work' sets, not warm up insufficiently and injure yourself. going from 1 set of 50% to you max weight will be a big jump for your muscle/tendons/ligaments to deal with.

Obviously if the final weight isn't that heavy then you wont need as many warm up sets, but generally speaking the more weight you are gonna lift the more warm up sets you will need.

[Tartovski]

Obviously if the final weight isn't that heavy then you wont need as many warm up sets, but generally speaking the more weight you are gonna lift the more warm up sets you will need.

Well my final weight always feels heavy to me! ;)

Ok then, next question... at what point does a "warm up set" become a work set? I currently do 50% of the weight for about 15 reps, and i've seen some plans suggest up to 12 reps as a work set, so i'm a bit confused how I can build up to my big weight without essentially doing another work set.

Also i've looked at the defrancostraining.com site and the programme you mentioned seems to contain a hell of alot of work sets (either 13 or 16 depending on how you work it) which is what I thought was best to avoid?

[TMA]

Ok then, next question... at what point does a "warm up set" become a work set?

Thats a pretty good question. It is dependent on weight and reps, and it is something you will have to test for yourself to see what works for you. The goal is to lift the most amount of weight in the last set for 3-5 reps. I think you will find you will be able to lift more weight in the final set if you gradually work your way up, and as you are not going anywhere near failure on these sets they shouldnt fatigue your muscles.

Just to clarify I'm not suggesting that your warm up set should be all light weight with high reps. if you are aiming for a final set of 3-5 reps, then I would say your warmup sets should be in that rep range too. What you can do is after your general warm up, start with the bar for maybe 8-10 reps but after that as you gradually increase the weight bring the reps down to 3-5. You probably want to work your way up to 80-90% of your final set weight, but as I say you compensate for the increased intensity by reducing the number of reps to avoid going to failure on these warmup sets. Then the work set would be the one you go to failure on.

Give it a try and see if it works for you, I would be interested to know eitherway

[TMA]

just one thing I forgot to mention is to remember to cool down and stretch after all workouts as this should also aid recovery

[Yohan]

We work up to our 5 rep max in the following manner:

25% weight, 5 reps
50% weight, 5 reps
75% weight, 5 reps
100% weight, 5 sets, 5 reps

[Tartovski]

Give it a try and see if it works for you, I would be interested to know eitherway

Ok, I'll see what happens if i give it a go. I'll talk to the trainers in the gym I go to too, just to get there advice.
So far my max weight isn't that high (though feels high for me!!)
Bench press - 5 x 65kg
Squat - 5 X 73kg
Seated Row - 75 x 6kg

****EDIT****
should point out my bodyweight is only 68KG!
************

As for warm downs/stretching - I always do that as part of my cool down ritual, followed by a contrast shower.

[Tartovski]

Well I added in another warm up set today (50kg for 8reps) with the result that I couldn't complete my work set. Hmmmm.

[TMA]

too many reps

but obviously if its not working for you in terms of increasing strength, then best to stick to whats working, but has it affected your recovery at all as I think that was the original point?

it may just be a nutrition and sleep issue of course

[Tartovski]

Is there any guide as to how many warm up sets to do/what %weight I should use??

Anyway, I didn't feel any worse off after it, so i guess it didn't do me too much harm!! Sleep has improved (woohoo!) as for nutrition i try to take in 1g per lb of bodyweight per day, and try to eat good carbs like fruit, veg etc... it's not perfect, but it's not awful either.

for a bit more info, here's the workout from today's kungfu session:

20 Alternate leg squat thrusts
20 Squats
20 Small leg changes
20 Bounces

20 Alternate leg squat thrusts
20 Squat jumps
20 Small leg changes
20 Squats

20 press ups
20 punches off each hand (in horse stance)
20 diamond press ups (hands together under chest)
20 staggered pushups (1 hand forward, 1 under chest)
20 tricep dips

20 dip pushups
20 punches off each hand (in horse stance)
20 wide stance push ups
20 clap push ups
20 press ups

20 crunches
20 jack knife sit ups
20 leg raises
20 reverse

20 crunches
20 jack knife sit ups
20 leg raises
20 reverse
20 double twist

(and since it was someones 18th we finished with):
18 double twist situps
18 straights
18 double twist situps
18 quarters
18 double twist situps
18 leg raises
18 double twist situps