what about forms?

[Hyung]

I do know, many hapkidoists and many hapkido styles don't even practice forms (hyungs).
Maybe it is because, many of them, don't believe they are useful in any way in (so called) "real life threatening" situations.
Our hapkido, is unique, in it's forms approach. We certainly do many air simulated or forms techniques in our practice.
I truly believe that forms are an excellent traditional way to understand basic movements, and to develop breathing/movement coordination.
And I truly also believe, that in many traditional styles, the aesthetics of forms biased the practical approach of techniques in real life situations, because, many teachers (even some masters) don't know how to teach and apply forms movements to real life techniques. In other words, they don't know the true meaning of poom-se (kata, in jap).
What do u think about these?
Best regards.

[BSR]

I don't know, but personally one of the things that attracted me to the study of Hapkido was the lack of forms.

I'm not saying forms can't be useful, but I think their usefulness is much less "apparent" to most people than practicing techniques with a real-life partner.

On the other hand, I have on several occasions practed my hoshinsul minus a partner when one wasn't available. Doing this forced me to focus more on my footwork and overall body movements which, of course, are very important to the art.

[Hyung]

Yes, I agree with you.
We indeed, practice techniques with a real-life partner (maybe even more than forms, or sparring).
But our system, was also designed to practice hapkido, when nobody else is available... that is, using forms.

[Patrick_baji]

I hate forms. End of story.

[timex]

Hapkido doesn't usually have any forms--but in our dojang we have 5 ,
they are useful for co-ordination etc.--they are not very long so it is o.k.
with me, as I don't want to spend a lot of time on them.

As for techniques I can practice them without a partner physically , or
I can use visualization.

Of course, practicing with a partner is ideal.

[vietdao]

I do know, many hapkidoists and many hapkido styles don't even practice forms (hyungs).
Maybe it is because, many of them, don't believe they are useful in any way in (so called) "real life threatening" situations.
Our hapkido, is unique, in it's forms approach. We certainly do many air simulated or forms techniques in our practice.
I truly believe that forms are an excellent traditional way to understand basic movements, and to develop breathing/movement coordination.
And I truly also believe, that in many traditional styles, the aesthetics of forms biased the practical approach of techniques in real life situations, because, many teachers (even some masters) don't know how to teach and apply forms movements to real life techniques. In other words, they don't know the true meaning of poom-se (kata, in jap).
What do u think about these?
Best regards.

I agree. I have practiced both Vovinam and hapkido, and while the hapkido I practice doesn't really have forms, Vovinam does. In my opinion, I can say that forms have really helped me improve my fighting techniques. Grant it, not all parts of a particular form are going to be used in a fight, but forms are usually a review of the techniques you have already learned. Knowing how to move thorugh the forms is helpful when I have to spar multiple attackers.

I also find that forms, are not always "cut and dry" you have to practice fighting and reviewing a lot before many parts of the form are going to make since. But I think, when correctly used and taught, forms are very helpful to becoming a well rounded martial artist. I know that this is not always agreed upon, but that's my two cents. :cool:

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[JSun]

Maybe it's because I'm a product of the 70's and watched Kung Fu Theatre on the weekends, but I think forms are what initially attracted me to Kuk Sool. The techniques are similar to Hapkido, but we also have to learn forms. They help develop balance and coordination, if nothing else. Outside of that, they're great cardio.

[Scarlet Mist]

I hate forms. End of story.

Yeah, forms suck.

[klaasb]

How many forms did you study?

[JSun]

How many forms did you study?

I'm not sure if this is directed at me, but I'll answer it :D

Six gup level empty hand forms:

Ki Cho Hyung
Cho Gup Hyung
Joong Gup Hyung
Goh Gup Hyung
Dae Gup Hyung
Goo Moo Hyung

[Coges]

I hate forms. End of story.

Cmon Pat the forms aren't that bad.

I do agree to an extent that forms shouldn't be the most focused on aspect of training but I do think that they provide you with a good base to check your stance, your transition from different movements. It helps with the footwork. Also, it helps preserve a little of what can be an ever changing landscape of techniques.

[klaasb]

I'm not sure if this is directed at me, but I'll answer it :D

Six gup level empty hand forms:

Ki Cho Hyung
Cho Gup Hyung
Joong Gup Hyung
Goh Gup Hyung
Dae Gup Hyung
Goo Moo Hyung

Actually it was directed at the people who said 'forms suck'.

I am not familiar with the forms you practiced.
Are they long forms (a lot of movements) or short forms?
Did your teacher tell anything about the purpose of the seperate forms??

[Patrick_baji]

Cmon Pat the forms aren't that bad.

I do agree to an extent that forms shouldn't be the most focused on aspect of training but I do think that they provide you with a good base to check your stance, your transition from different movements. It helps with the footwork. Also, it helps preserve a little of what can be an ever changing landscape of techniques.

holy crap when was the last time I saw you post here

[Patrick_baji]

anyway I do agree forms stop you from being sloppy and teaches you control of your movements and things like that but coming from a kung fu background that was FULL Of forms and then doing them in hapkido has made me quite sick of them. That's why I don't like forms.

[JimH]

Hapkido is a fine motor skill developed by perfecting the Hand placement to twist and inflict pain to the joints.
The art is not a gross motor skill as is TKD,one must actually engage in Hands on,person to person contact to make it work,to see how the body responds to the techniques and strikes ,so while forms are good to perfect foot movement,body positioning and shifting,so the main portion of the art can only be gained from hands on.
If the main aspect of the art is gained with hands on then get a partner ,work the hands on,the foot movement,the body shifts and perfect the art as a whole.
One cannot train against an imaginary opponent and work hand placement off a grab or punch.
My opinion anyway.

[Coges]

holy crap when was the last time I saw you post here

Mate, back from an extended holiday from MAP. How are the wrists?

[Coges]

Hapkido is a fine motor skill developed by perfecting the Hand placement to twist and inflict pain to the joints.
The art is not a gross motor skill as is TKD,one must actually engage in Hands on,person to person contact to make it work,to see how the body responds to the techniques and strikes ,so while forms are good to perfect foot movement,body positioning and shifting,so the main portion of the art can only be gained from hands on.
If the main aspect of the art is gained with hands on then get a partner ,work the hands on,the foot movement,the body shifts and perfect the art as a whole.
One cannot train against an imaginary opponent and work hand placement off a grab or punch.
My opinion anyway.

I agree completely. All training aspects have their place but if you don't do the hands on work with other people then how do you know how you will react when someone really attacks you.

Personally, when we train we might spend 5-10 minutes on forms per class. You would do more leading up to a grading if you feel they need it but our forms aren't really long and there are only four of them anyway.

[Patrick_baji]

Mate, back from an extended holiday from MAP. How are the wrists?

better but i havn't had good wrists for so long ive kind of forgotten what they feel like.

[Hyung]

Yes, I do somehow agree with many of you.
But, as shadow boxing... the forms in traditional martial arts (as kata, hyung, etc), have their place in training.
Without forms, maybe their is no structure or system to inherit from past masters. A good, really done with excellency form... is even more difficult than doing techniques with a partner (art of uke), or even than sparring.
Forms have even more rules to apply. At the end, what really matters is knowing how to express the language of the art.
MMA fighters are good at what they do, but what they do is not the best.
Forms represent the encyclopedia of a style; without them the movements would be nothing more than abstract in nature.
Being a good fighter, is not the true measure of a martial artist.
Forms have been here since centuries... and so many generations of past masters can't truly be completely wrong about them.
Peace.

[Jointlock]

I have done TKD in the past and in my opinion thought I was good at forms. I liked the memorization and the feeling of once you had it, it flowed. However, I don't teach forms as part of my Hapkido class. I consider it a training tool that my students do not need. I have considered adding in some modified TKD forms but scrapped the idea for several reasons.

The encyclopedia for my Hapkido is the curriculum that I've laid out. The techniques are taught in a repetitive order, so they can be remembered more easily. Why do I need forms when my students can refer to the curriculum PDFs to see what the techniques are.

Now if I had a student do white belt jointlock techniques 1 through 6 in order, depending on the goal and the resistance level of the partner for this particular exercise, it might look like a form, because the students have practiced the movements enough to put them to muscle memory and can just flow from one technique to the next. They should even be able to do them without a partner and that might be form like. To me this is a better way to do forms.

I have no problems with people doing forms, I just think there are better ways to train my class. I still like to pull them out and dust them off every once in a while. I think it is very important that if you do teach forms that you need to explain the applications of each technique.

I guess my big question is what can you get out of doing forms that you can't get out of other types of exercises?

[Hyung]

I have done TKD in the past and in my opinion thought I was good at forms. I liked the memorization and the feeling of once you had it, it flowed. However, I don't teach forms as part of my Hapkido class. I consider it a training tool that my students do not need..... Who knows? sometimes a technique that you learn in a seminar, makes you think that this is of no value, but it maybe effective to someone else. Why not, let's them decide it by themselves.

......depending on the goal and the resistance level of the partner for this particular exercise, it might look like a form, because the students have practiced the movements enough to put them to muscle memory and can just flow from one technique to the next. They should even be able to do them without a partner and that might be form like. To me this is a better way to do forms....... You are not the only one to think like this. Maybe you are not that wrong, as many have been attracted to hapkido, because it lacks of forms (at least, some styles or branches of hapkido).

I have no problems with people doing forms, I just think there are better ways to train my class. I still like to pull them out and dust them off every once in a while. I think it is very important that if you do teach forms that you need to explain the applications of each technique...... that's the exact issue about the concept of ineffectiveness of forms, many teachers (even masters) don't really know the meaning of the movements they do in forms.

I guess my big question is what can you get out of doing forms that you can't get out of other types of exercises? ......

For me the most important reason for doing forms, is the need to practice when you are alone, without a partner, and for the very basic aspects, they teach about aesthetics, balance, good stance, and right motion of techniques. But of course, they are not a substitute to practicing techniques with a partner (specially when beginning to learn), and of course nor they are for sparring (eventhough, I do not sparr in hapkido, cause it's true nature makes it too dangerous to sparring or competitive/sport like aspect). All of them, are complementary ways of training