Aikido seen by a Wing Chunner, as well as questions

[Tatsuma]

First of all, let me boldly state this is not a thread meant to bitch about styles or claim "my style is better than yours". don't turn this into a flame war. I don't plan to be offensive, but I know some people might react badly by reading what is going to follow... Just relax, and discuss... I've seen too many blind MAists totally refusing to see the shortcomings of their own styles to not state what I just did..




Now that i've been specific, let me ask my questions/ask my reflexion about Aikido...

I've been sparring recently with an Aikido performer and, well... he's getting totally overpowered.... even though he practiced about 3 times longer than i did (3 years versus a year for me (and half of this without a teacher, also rigourous))...

and even though he knows far more positions, locks and everything than I do, he can't do anything because of the speed and my footwork, mostly...

Is aikido directed more toward non-MAists? Or is it more of a martial art like TKD or Judo without "real" efficiency in the street? (and, well, if someone is a master in MA, it doesn't matter which style he use, he is still a master, i'm talking about mid-level practionners)

I think it could create a mature discussion if people are willing to

[versatilefightR]

Personally I think it takes a lot longer for someone taking Aikido to be able to use his/her techniques efficiently in a real situation. And how are you guys sparring? Give the guy a couple more years, then he will probably throw you a couple of times ;)

[DexterTCN]

Tatsuma :)

Firstly...give that guy as hard a time as you can. ;)

You should know that 'aikido' as practiced is very bad for sparring, because most of it does not have sparring, it has either big killer moves or floating casual moves or hard grips. I personally prefer 'arts' that have sparring. :)

Secondly, yes...some of 'aikido' is not 'martial'. A lot of people train in aikido for martial purposes, but a lot do not. As far as that goes, I could probably name a million 'martial arts' that only train for competitions, gradings or school photographs, or calmness, or holding breath under water. :)

[zun]

Just speculating:

Maybe he trained at a McDojo.

[Tomiki Ryu]

Personally I don't take Aikido to improve fighting ability, I take it for more spiritual purposes, the fact that it IS a fighting system is just a pleasant side benefit for me. I've also studied TKD and a full contact style of Shotokan karate. I think Aikido just takes ALOT longer to develop proficiency in than other martial arts because it is SO technical. Also just because you 'rank' in a MA does NOT mean you're good at it, it merely means you know the required criteria to achive the rank. I've beaten Aikido brown belts in my school using strictly only Aikido moves and I am only a yellow belt. I have also played against mid level Judo players (mat work only) and won although I have NO Judo training. I did wrestle in high school but that was almost 15yrs ago. One of the worst problems I see with Aikido is that it is SO lethal in many aspects that unless you are a true master at it you really have to pull your punches in sparring otherwise you're going to endanger your opponent. For instance I do very well in 3 on 1 randori (free fighting) but in a 5 on 1 fight I get 'mugged'. I attribute this to the fact that you can't hurt anybody in practice. In a real fight I would try to break something quickly and put at least one or two guys out of commission. I have no illusions about winning a 5 on 1 street fight and I think the only way to even TRY is to get violent quickly, I'm not a master at the art by any means, maybe someday. Anyways the only SERIOUS short commings I have seen so far in Aikido is:

1. It takes probably 3 times longer to learn and be proficient at it than other MAs.

2. Its SO powerful that you need to pull alot of punches during randori.

3. It is lacking a full range of ground techniques. (I think Judo complements Aikido greatly)

4. Lacks a full range of striking techniques. (But remember this is a DEFENSIVE art and yes we DO have Atemi Strikes, although from what I hear alot of schools don't emphasize them enough.)


I'm not saying your friend isn't any good, BUT I would suggest finding a 'hardcore' Aikido school and finding someone who IS known to be 'good' and spar with them before making a full judgement on the art. As you said ALL styles have thier short commings. Hope this helps.

[aikiMac]

Original question
Is aikido directed more toward non-MAists?
Aikido is for anybody. Aikido is where the masters of other martial arts end up. It's old Musashi fighting with a bokken and not really hurting his opponents. It's Mr. Miyagi at the end of the "Karate Kid" movie when he stepped out of the way of the mean teacher's punches, and then just honked the mean teacher's nose. Aikido is when you could do a big movement and break 27 bones and rupture a liver, but instead, you just move a few inches and let the punch go by. Aikido is not-fighting because fighting actually sucks.


Originally posted by Tomiki Ryu
1. It takes probably 3 times longer to learn and be proficient at it than other MAs.

2. Its SO powerful that you need to pull alot of punches during randori.

3. It is lacking a full range of ground techniques. (I think Judo complements Aikido greatly)

4. Lacks a full range of striking techniques. (But remember this is a DEFENSIVE art and yes we DO have Atemi Strikes, although from what I hear alot of schools don't emphasize them enough.)


I'm not saying your friend isn't any good, BUT I would suggest finding a 'hardcore' Aikido school and finding someone who IS known to be 'good' and spar with them before making a full judgement on the art. As you said ALL styles have thier short commings. Hope this helps.
Ya, what he said, except the part about a "full judgment." I would want you to spar with almost every aikido student around the world before making a "full" judgment, but I'm nitpicky.

You fight the person, not the martial art. Every martial art has good fighters and bad fighters, both. As a beginer (white and blue belt) I've trained with brown and black belts who could knock me into next week, and I've trained with brown and black belts whom I could knock into next week. And I mean that about martial arts besides aikido, too.

[Zero Vector 0]

Originally posted by aikiMac
Aikido is for anybody. Aikido is where the masters of other martial arts end up. It's old Musashi fighting with a bokken and not really hurting his opponents. It's Mr. Miyagi at the end of the "Karate Kid" movie when he stepped out of the way of the mean teacher's punches, and then just honked the mean teacher's nose. Aikido is when you could do a big movement and break 27 bones and rupture a liver, but instead, you just move a few inches and let the punch go by. Aikido is not-fighting because fighting actually sucks.


my quote of the day:woo: :D

[judojedi]

Originally posted by Tomiki Ryu

3. It is lacking a full range of ground techniques. (I think Judo complements Aikido greatly)



yes, judo would do. infact i've heard aikido being described as 'pure judo'. what do you aiki-guys think of that statment?

i used to learn Taiho Jutsu, which is a mix of judo and aikido, the problem was though that the instructors totally ignored groundwork. they were even talking about getting it removed from the syllabus. it annoyed me loads when they were putting ground work down because they didn't understand it.

anyway, aikido (as with the stand up part of taiho) takes a long long time to perfect (especially the way i was taught).

another posibility may be that he is just not co-ordinated or suited to the combat side of MA's and is in it for self improvment rarther than martial achievment.

[Shaolin Dragon]

I have studied a number of striking MA, as well as some basic jujutsu, but have found aikido the hardest to get to grips to. Feeling particularly frustrated one lesson, I growled at my instructor, "I just want to know all the answers, NOW," to which he replied calmly, "so do I." ;)

[Virtuous]

infact i've heard aikido being described as 'pure judo'. what do you aiki-guys think of that statment?

This is a first for me. Although the two arts share similar attributes I wouldnt call one the pure form of the other.

As for you sparring your friend. Do you have any training in ukemi waza? If not your friend may be pulling punches on purpose. For a technique to be effective it needs to be executed very quickly. If you dont know how to react or dont react fast enough there is a high potential that you will get seriously injured. I spar with a TKD practitioner from time to time and it is very difficult on my part because I am very limited with what I can use to disable him.

I've noticed alot of aiki schools dont use open sparring at all. This is a real problem. I believe it should be a regular part of a students training in any combatative art. To be able to get knocked around and take a few punches with out loosing mental clarity requires regular practice. You can be a damn good aikidoka and some one managed to slip you a sucker punch and you werent prepared and cant take a punch you're done. So you're friend may not be comfortable in a sparring situation.

As for a throwing,ground work, and striking art, goto the root and study japanese jujitsu (there are other nice well rounded arts but since we are talking about japanese arts Ill stick to those.) Its a nice well rounded art.

just my .02

[judojedi]

Originally posted by Virtuous
This is a first for me. Although the two arts share similar attributes I wouldnt call one the pure form of the other.

i think the sensai who said this to me was talking about the principles of 'ju' and aikido being soft style. i cant say i agree with him entirly but he has a point.

[DexterTCN]

Kano said that Ueshiba's Aikido was 'Perfect Budo'.

This statement was misunderstood at the time by one of Kano's students. And is not much better understood these days.

[aikiscotsman]

YOU CANNOT SPAR IN AIKIDO. THAT IS THE FUNDAMENTAL DIFFERENCE BETWEEN MARTIAL SPORTS AND TRU BUDOS. IN A SITUATION WERE ANOTHER ARTISTS WANTS TO SPAR WITH YOU IF YOU PLAY BY SPARRING RULES YOU WILL ALWAYS LOSE, THAT IS WHY YOU GO IN FOR THE KILL WITH LOTS OF KOKYU AND KIAI.IT IS NOT A SPORT

[Jordan]

I practice a style of aikido which I created, because is saw that moves are good but if you don't do randori or spar you wont be able to use the moves spontainiously on time and with out thinking.
Also to become good at sparring you should work on ground fighting, I get mine from aikido and Gracie Jiu Jitsu.
But the main cause a lot of Aikidoka have trouble with randori is because they some what attack the Ukes. By that I mean they try to grab the wrist into a wrist lock while the should
wait for the attack. Trust me when the attacker attacks he has already been thrown!
I hope this helps you Jordan

[DexterTCN]

Yes you can.

I do it all the time these days.

Don't forget..when Tomiki returned to O Sensei with his 'randori' version of Aikido, O Sensei was willing to accept it as the way to 'teach'...but the other deshi refused to allow it because it did not suit how they saw Aikido and they refused to accept randori.

Anyway...if you are 'always going to lose' because of randori...better to learn how to win ;)

Randori MAKES martial arts. O Sensei, Takeda...all of them learned from fighting....randori is fighting.

Randori means 'finding order in chaos'...a basic martial principal. Anyone can comb their hair in front of a mirror, but that is not pressure. Without pressure a student is a paper tiger.

[Freeform]

The only problem arises when you want to 'win' in randori and abuse the rules (which are there for safety) to obtain the 'win'.

Randori should be about improving yourself, not besting others.

Col

[Gravity]

I concur with you Aikiscotman. Aikido is not a sport and there never can be competition in Aikido. To do so would be to water down its effectiveness. This we have seen in some of the other martial arts.

Sparring without pulling back your Atemis, Techniques, Throws and Locks would be to invite injury to your poor uke (partner). But this is not to say that because we pull back our "punches" - so to speak, we become less effective out there in the streets.

And about the footwork, Aikido has excellent footwork. In fact, aikidokas try to hide their feet thru the hakama to prevent telegraphing their movements.

[DexterTCN]

Who was talking about competition?

We were talking about randori. (Well, in this little branch of the thread anyway.)

[Infesticon #1]

Yo, is that Tatsuma from the O-board/Z-board?

[Tintin]

Correct, aikido is not a sport. It is in that most fortunate situation of being able to be many things to many people.

Randori is simply 'free practice', allowing participants to attempt techniques in a dynamic situation. Competition randori can be seen as a further atempt to test those techniques against someone else with a more literal goal in mind - whether a trophy or just the knowledge that your techniques are effective.

Could someone please give me a convincing argument why competition waters down a martial art?!

Finally, we don't all wear hakama to hide our footwork. I'd like to think mine is adequate that I don't need it hidden, and I'm hardly going to be wearing a hakama out on the street. Intriguing fashion statement though...

[DexterTCN]

Originally posted by Freeform
The only problem arises when you want to 'win' in randori and abuse the rules (which are there for safety) to obtain the 'win'.

Randori should be about improving yourself, not besting others.

Col

This is the rub. The personal development which goes beyond winning a point and reaches towards harmony with the universe.

When we do not see our attacker as an enemy, or an opportunity to 'look good' or to practice a technique...when we see them as 'out of harmony'...it does not matter how the situation came about, whether randori, weapons, ninin-dori, suwari-waza, in a bar or on a street....if the techniques are used for those reasons they are merely jujuitsu. (no offence to the jujitsu brigade)

Aiki is a state of mind :)

[Gravity]

Funny how a missing qualifier changes what you mean. In sports or sportive competition, there are rules for safety. And it is precisely because of these rules (don't do this... don't do that) that aikido's effectiveness can be watered down.

My apologies...

And by the way, randori is not competition in my own dictionary. Thanks Tintin. :)

[DexterTCN]

Originally posted by Gravity
. In sports or sportive competition, there are rules for safety. And it is precisely because of these rules (don't do this... don't do that) that aikido's effectiveness can be watered down.

But all Martial Arts are practiced this way. No-one is allowed to bite your nuts of or stamp on your head.

All Martial Arts are taught in such a way as to allow the students to reach the next session safely (and stop the instructor being sued). Of course, some classes are 'harder' than others...but even extreme classes do not allow unreasonable damage students.

Perhaps it would be better to ask 'is some training better than no training?' because you will most likely never see a class where anything goes.

[Freeform]

Originally posted by DexterTCN
This is the rub. The personal development which goes beyond winning a point and reaches towards harmony with the universe.


I just meant your technique becomes compitition orientated and not 'true'.

My truth is not your truth ;)


if the techniques are used for those reasons they are merely jujuitsu. (no offence to the jujitsu brigade)

Aiki is a state of mind :)

None taken :D

[Specter]

Damn, Dexter is really getting poetic on us today. Impressive. I must relate a time when I was in a situation slightly similar to this. I was practicing with a good friend of mine, Zack, whom I have known for many years now. He is a blackbelt in aikido, after about 10 years of practice. I was using judo, walked up, tossed him, pinned him. This type of thing happened for a couple months, and I was starting to wonder whether aikido was possibly more aligned towards striking. One day, we were hanging out around downtown and someone attempted to mug us, wielding a knife. Before I could hand the guy my wallet, Zack sprang into action, disarmed him, and had him flying through the air. I realized that he had been holding back based on my level of ability in Judo, and soon I was taking harder falls and encountering his more damaging techniques, as he noticed my competency level rising. I will not again make the mistake of assuming that someone is incapable simply because I can toss him a couple times.

[aikiwolfie]

Ok I couldn't be bothered reading everybodys posts but I've noticed some people saying they've beaten brown belts and black belts when they were only yellow belts.

Personaly I think if a yellow belt is truly beating a black belt you're at a McDojo and it's time to find a new teacher.

If you're not at a McDojo then the higher grade let you win (for lack of a better word) simply to let you try out what you've learned.

As for sparing. Any black belt worth their grade in Aikido should at least hold their own against anybody of a comparible grade from other art.

That said many Aikido federations are heading down the slipery path of becoming a sport and hand out grades purely becuse people pay for them.

[TheMasterSword]

ahhh the shames of the American Martial Arts community.... it's sad to see that they are more "black belts" in the US than any other country as well as many 10 dan and Super Duper Grand Masters... blah blah blah

I agree that a black belt should no MUST be able to beat a yellow belt otherwise that school is way too commercial and cares only about gaining money than teaching students.... unfortunately this is the US and people want results fast or they leave


well going back to the original comments aikido is more geared towards a way of life than an actual martial (please let me continue before i get the hate mail)... the actual word aiki do means something along the lines of "THE WAY" of harmony, harmonious bleed of the life force, ki and so on and so on... ueshiba was a very spiritual man and he believed that aikido was not only for uses of becoming a greater fighter but of becoming a greater being... HOWEVER anyone who has done aikido with someone who is ACTUALLY a "master" at it knows the efficiency of aikido and how potent of a self defense art that it truly is... but it also is not an offensive art.... as you can see in the stances it is very defense because in aikido we do not strike first... "if we strike first then it shows that we have not done enough training" - loose quote from ueshiba... therefore when i hear the word "sparring" it sounds like 2 people trying to strike each other.... which i feel is not PURE aiki.. kano once stated that aikido was the true judo (gentle way) where upon one of his students responded, "so are we doing fake judo?" (responding to someone's thread)

aikido's real power lies in the fact that we blend (or try to) with everything... any attack doesn't need a complicated trapping to counter.... we simply move out of the way :Angel:

[Jordan]

I agree the newer students seem to think that my fellow Senseis and I can't fight against a yellow belt , truth is we just don't want to hurt them, because they have not mastered Ukemi

[covenant ma]

im not an expert,but wasnt akido designed for sword/knife attacks? as for tkd or judo being useless for street defence,i strongly disagree! its all in the trainnig i would think ,but i could be wrong ,however to say one art is useless and another isnt,well i think we all might as well hang up our gis doboks and so forth,cause then all of them would be useless, never put your faith in any art! another can be designed to counter it ! thats why there is a counter to every tec there is ,its all in the timing !

[Rebel Wado]

The original post in this thread talked about problems an Aikidoka had sparring against a Wing Chunner. There may be valid points in the observations, on the other hand, nobody can honestly say then never have lost a fight. Even champions have lost in training or in life at times, what matters maybe more is to still be around after each time and winning when it counts.

I have sparred many with Aikido training, and I myself have studied a few years of Aikido. I always find that Aikido techniques do not mix well with sparring, however, the footwork and the principles do work well in sparring. The techniques have problems, I believe, because they aren't trained to be used in sparring. Sparring emphasizes movement and people good at sparring can usually move around fairly well.

What I am saying is that a Wing Chunner may have more experience moving in a sparring environment, but the Aikidoka probably doesn't because they don't really spar. Randori helps but the majority of randori happens at higher belt levels, not at beginner and intermediate levels. Opposed to say a boxer that might do some sparring within the first few months if not sooner.

Hey, I've got a story that might help to put this in perspective...

The story is from something my uncle experienced around the 1930's on the docks somewhere in California. One of the workers was a Judo champion from Japan. This story is about this Judo champion's fight on the docks.

One day the Judo champion was approached by another man who attacked him with a knife. The Judo champion was cut several times and maybe stabbed during the fight, but eventually managed to break the other man's arm and then choked him out.

The Judo champion told my uncle that if the other man had attacked him with a downward knife attack (ice pick technique) then he would have defeated the man much sooner without a problem. Instead, the other man was from the Filipines and had used some strange Filipino knife methods.

Even a Judo champion from Japan in the 1930's had problems because he was not used to fighting the way the other attacked.

Now the Aikidoka and the Wing Chunner were not used to the way the other attacked. The Wing Chunner came out on top, but did the Wing Chunner have more familarity with the sparring environment that gave an advantage?

All I am saying is that not being used to fighting the way someone else fights can be major factor to consider. It isn't just, Aikido verse Wing Chun training... there is more to it than that.

[Goju]

nobody can honestly say then never lost a fight...

....Unless you're Rickson Gracie.....


Seriously though, this is kind of a cool match-up, because both are close range stand up arts and both have trapping, but one is more like grappling and the other more like striking, but neither are either pure striking or pure grappling.

(to the original poster)

Maybe you should'nt automatically just think "Oh, I can kick my friend's ass because Aikido sucks and Wing Chun owns it", maybe before all that you should be thinking "Is this Aikido student slow and out of shape? Is he a slow learner? Does he train at a McDojo?"

This may be kind of off topic, but a lot of posts in this thread are anyway so I always have this funny picture in my head of someone who trains at a mcdojo in any ma (i.e. karate mcdojo, dumb looking student gets attacked and does a highblock with no follow up, just looks at the guy) The image I get of a student from an Aikido McDojo is some really arrogant kid who thinks he's got your number and when you start throwing punches at his face he grabs at the air in from of him trying to wristlock all the punches.

Is the guy you spar with like that!? If so you have to tape these matches, that'd be the greatest thing ever.

Really though (still to original poster) what does the Aikidoka do? what techniques does he use when you spar him? Is he entirely defensive or what?

[kiaiki]

One of these threads seems to crop up every few weeks. You can't compare arts from a sample of one, or a hundred, or a thousand fighting each other. Individual skill, fitness and bravery is involved in an infinite variety of combination in every single fight. Having said that, it's fun to test techniques on folks from other MA's - a long time ago UKMAF used to run day sessions where we all met up with half a dozen MA instructors and sampled every art. (I'm talking more than 10 years ago - God I'm older than I thought!)

I have 'sparred' several times with different MA exponents, most recenty with a kick boxer and grappler. Guess what - sparring needs rules to avoid death or serious injury. Guess what - I 'lost' when playing by his rules, he 'lost' when I used Aikido. It proves........nothing. There is no way I could apply a 'full on' lock, throw or even atemi - the guy was not trained to receive them. He did notice, and learn, how important posture was in our art. ( I learned more about grappling, building on some very rusty Judo skills.)

It has no implication for either art. It's just a useful and interesting exercise - and a bit of fun! :)

[WhereMyRiceGo]

even though aikido is a peace martial arts where you dont beat ur opponent to a pulp. i think making him end up on the floor everytime will make him more angry. i know i would be.

[basatum]

WhereMyRiceGo:

Maybe you don't hit the "floor" often enough. Being thrown down in a real life situation hurts. I'm not talking about being thrown on to one of the mats at the dojo. I'm talking about falling from 4 feet on to the sidewalk or the road. It might make you more angry, but I don't think it would inspire you to get up and go back for more.

[Jet Jaguar]

just my two aikido cents on this subject. I first spent five years studying tae kwon do, went to college and studied Aikido for four years, great instructor also.

I found that when my other MA friends in college wanted to see my Aikido in action, I had to slow it way down, when questioned why, because if I do it fast, i'm going to hurt you, they don't how to take Ukemi. Then one did get a little smart and actually threw a punch, in which I countered with Iriminage and threw him in to a wall.

Now I study Shaolin Kung Fu (lohan Chuan for the purist), we do Friday Fight night, light protective gear and heavy hitting. I get my butt kicked a lot now. Four years of Aikido has kept my feet planted firmly on the floor. Well, one Friday night during my ritual butt kicking, one of the Black Sashes wanted to use open finger gloves and try some of his grappling out. (he started learning Gracie Jujitsu) I put on some open finger gloves, I have to say, I countered every move he had trying to take me to the mat. Anytime he grabbed me, I locked him, and threw him once. It was Randori all over again. He ended up asking if we could just start from the floor.

I think all martial arts have thier strengths and weaknesses. I enjoy all the joint locks of both Aikido and Chin-na.

Due to a back injury I find Shaolin more helpful for my health.

[aikiwolfie]

even though aikido is a peace martial arts where you dont beat ur opponent to a pulp. i think making him end up on the floor everytime will make him more angry. i know i would be.
The answer to that is the either to not let him back up until help arrives the first time. Or resort to the "three strikes and your out" rule. In other words give him three warnings. Each more severe than the last. If three warnings isn't enough it's time to make sure he doesn't want to fight anymore. It's that simple.

While there may be a philosophy of peace associated with Aikido, nobody is suggesting you should put up with idots who are hell bent on causing you harm. It's all about reading the situation and acting accordingly.

[Dave Humm]

I've followed this thread with some interest and found the posts quite interesting; thought I'd chip in with my own opinions.

I've often read people's comments about Aikido lacking in "ground skills". People who often make these comments in relation to the art's 'effectiveness' look upon (and probably expect something from) Aikido with an entirely different martial perspective to, where Aikido came from (its origins) in relation to its 'modern' application and, the philosophical aspects which are commonly associated (and often misunderstood) by students.

It has been my long belief that Aikido, by its very nature, how it evolved and exists today, has an identity dilemma (for some within the martial arts community). Aikido has influences from deep within both classical Budo and the very fabric of Japanese society however; it is a Gendai art and not Koryu, and this is where the problems lie in relation to other arts which may be considered more 'modern' in the context of application, such as Brazilian Jujutsu to give a topical example.

An aikidoist cannot apply his knowledge 'freely' against an individual without them first having skills in ukemi - to do so will simply result in an injury however, to try and explain this or even demonstrate the simplest of techniques without appearing either 'holier than thou' or that one is trying to cover up for ineffective application is very difficult, we are in essence caught in a catch 22 situation.

1, If I demonstrate on a fellow aikidoist - they are allowing the technique and not "fully resisting"

2, If I demonstrate on a non aikidoist - (who resists) a serious injury will probably result.

3, Anyone who spouts off about the philosophy of the art when faced with 'opposition' to the effectiveness of the system will more often than not further the "aikido is ineffective, a cult, a religion" debate without trying.

I myself have had such debates where I was simply asked "is aikido a fighting art?" My answer was "of course", once into this pointless debate we quickly find the retort "...then why don't we see aikido used in UFC or BJJ or within the MMA arena?"

The simple answer to that is... "aikido wasn't designed for that arena"

None of us wish to fight (god forbid) on another person's terms, if I attempt to fight with a BJJ exponent, I pretty much expect to have my arse handed to me, its fairly obvious that one system pretty much relies on bringing their opponent to the ground then pounding or submitting them to a conclusion. The other art wants to stay upright on one's feet. However, if I place the BJJ exponent in an environment where Aiki technique originated, I doubt much ground work would take place; essentially what I'm suggesting is that ground work has it place as does staying on your feet. Each system having its merits and pitfalls - Neither are perfect. If you want both your train in both.

In my limited martial arts lifetime I've come to realise that skills alone are only a small part (although important obviously) to a larger picture, honesty with one's self and having the right attitude also contribute to creating a well rounded student however, I firmly believe that to be good at what we do we must understand strategy.

Without strategy, our techniques are meaningless, simply a series of moves from a set of attacks, no matter how you train unless you can create opportunities, understand the situation you exist in and, how to control all of those variables, we're on a downer.

"Rules" exist even in a 'real' fight, unfortunately for us those rules are called laws and moral values. A scroat isn't abiding by those rules when he/she creates a situation where you have to respond to a threat thus, we are ALREADY playing on their terms, the problem for us is how far are we prepared to go to ensure we're always 'on par' with their terms ? Sounds an easy thing to do but I assure it isn't.

Being honest about one's self, one's skills and what you expect from them is a primary aspect in studying Budo (of any kind) People train according to need. I myself enjoy my training, although I attempt to maintain a martial aspect to my study, I'm not training for war or any particular situation. If I thought I needed to learn how to "ground and pound" I'd either cross train or give up Aikido. I don't live my training by the "what if" scenario. I just get on and train as hard as I can. (which is often not as hard as it should be)

The origonal posted asked some important questions

I've been sparring recently with an Aikido performer and, well... he's getting totally overpowered.... even though he practiced about 3 times longer than i did (3 years versus a year for me (and half of this without a teacher, also rigourous)...

and even though he knows far more positions, locks and everything than I do, he can't do anything because of the speed and my footwork, mostly...

Is aikido directed more toward non-MAists? Or is it more of a martial art like TKD or Judo without "real" efficiency in the street? (and, well, if someone is a master in MA, it doesn't matter which style he use, he is still a master, i'm talking about mid-level practionners)My reply...

Aikido is a Japanese Art based on principles used in feudal battlefields where kicks and, to some degree, punches were few and far between. This is why the influences of the sword spear and knife are so prominent in the system because; they were used to greater effect thus responses to those threats were required and developed.

Yes aikido can be very effective against kicking and punching applications however THEY MUST BE TRAINED FOR. I hazard an educated guess that the longer the aikido student trains with the Kungfu student the greater his success rates will become in working off those attacks.

I have within my dojo a Yudansha in Kyokushinkai Karate, this guy would easily knock my head off with either his hands or feet *if* I allowed him to fight his terms. As a result of having these particular skills within my dojo each week, I've learned that my aikido has improved from those specific sets of attacks which, were otherwise lacking before he joined, in other words, we've been given the opportunity to train for defense and counter against very strong (but equally stylised) punches and kicks.

The critical aspect of strategy is understanding Ma-ai

To live aikido under the "once he enters my sphere" philosophy is a dangerous game to play because equally when he is in YOUR sphere, YOU are in HIS !!!

Regards

[Staiduk]

Good insights Dave; let me toss in one or two of my own.

One of the things that irks me is when people talk about 'doing aikido' on someone; or words to that effect.

Aikido - like any good martial art - isn't a list of techniques strung together; designed to be followed A->B->C. It's a system of movement, positioning and structure; designed to take maximum advantage of an opponent's structure and energy vector.

In other words; aikido isn't the techniques. The techniques are (IMO) training tools to teach aikido. The techniques we learn in class teach us how bodies move in conflict; they teach us how to position ourselves, manipulate the opponent, redirect his force, maintain stability while taking his, etc.

The upshot of this is that when an attacker attacks; if the aikidoist has learned properly he won't be trying to accomplish a mat-perfect kokyunage; he'll be allowing his body to do what comes naturally at the moment.

(In the Clausewitzian sense; that is. The above example ignores a whole ton of other factors - I'm speaking strictly of movement at the moment.)

In other other words; when faced with an attacker; an aikidoist doesn't 'do aikido'; he just does what is necessary at the moment.

This is what happens if the aikidoist has learned properly. If he hasn't; if he's a low-ranked student or technique collector; then he's going to fail miserably. This is because just like battle plans; no technique survives first contact with the enemy.

:D The really fun bit about all this is that when you talk about your art; other people have a tendancy to slot you into that particular role. For instance; I stepped into a sparring ring with a friend of mine the other day. He practices TKD; so was a bit on the overconfident side. This is how his thought process went:
I do Aikido - I've been doing it for 5 years now.
Which means I'm a rank beginner; and it means I'm totally defensive; and it means I don't spar, etc. etc.
Heh heh heh - guess he didn't hear me talk about the other 17 years experience; 9 of them as a U/C instructor in the Canadian Armed Forces. ;)
A few minutes and several loud thuds later; he said "Wait! I thought you said aikido doesn't have any punches or kicks?!?"
"It doesn't," I said, "I do." :yeleyes: :D

So don't worry about what aikido can and can't do; especially in relation to other arts. Worry about what you can do; fin your weaknesses; and work to close those gaps. Easy, really; when you think about it. :D

Cheers!

[Dave Humm]

Aikido - like any good martial art - isn't a list of techniques strung together; designed to be followed A->B->C. It's a system of movement, positioning and structure; designed to take maximum advantage of an opponent's structure and energy vector.I'd pretty much agree with that statement however;In other words; aikido isn't the techniques. The techniques are (IMO) training tools to teach aikido. The techniques we learn in class teach us how bodies move in conflict; they teach us how to position ourselves, manipulate the opponent, redirect his force, maintain stability while taking his, etc.... I'd have to disagree.

In a physical sense Aikido is a series of techniques but, any good instructor will encourage freedom of thought and a desire to cultivate correct attitude (That 'attitude' may also be opinions and subscription to Aikido philosophy).

In the early stages of training a student hasn't any option but to learn a particular technique from a particular attack - essentially the epitome of choreography however, with several years of repeated practice with a large number of fellow students, that technique becomes 'internalised' and develops into subconscious action, when that happens our techniques no longer exist dependant upon A's B's or C's... They just exist.

Techniques themselves don't actually teach us how to "manipulate" anything, the principles of those applications however, do. The principles of our art exist in some shape, format or degree in every waza we attempt but, fail to apply the key principles 'Awase & Kuzushi', technique simply becomes a struggle of physical strength.The upshot of this is that when an attacker attacks; if the aikidoist has learned properly he won't be trying to accomplish a mat-perfect kokyunage; he'll be allowing his body to do what comes naturally at the moment.Agreed but from differing opinions....In other words; when faced with an attacker; an aikidoist doesn't 'do aikido'; he just does what is necessary at the moment.Well you've lost me there. The purest form of "aiki" is spontaneous action (very often kokyu in nature) that in its self is aikido at its best.

Regards

[slipthejab]

Dave Humm,
Your post #37 was very informative and very well put.
Thank you for the insight. Well worth the time read it... and it's worth remembering it. :)

[Dave Humm]

Something which I also wanted to mention but forgot in my earlier post.

One of my newer students asked me recently about why we train a greater portion of our time on the mat using katate-dori as the basis of connection.

My answer to this question was three fold.

To start with, using katate-dori is a great way to develop an understanding of the core principles of aikido, and doing so in a very safe and controlled way. Learning aspects of timing, distance, posture, positioning, balance, co-ordination, confidence and martial spirit all begin with the simplest of forms - katate-dori.

If we look at the influences of sword, staff and knife within aikido it doesn't take much of an imagination to work out that once in contact with a person wielding one (or more) of these weapons, our actions are 95% identical to what we'd do from katate-dori, the biggest difference of course is that they're no longer holding our wrist, indeed quite often we're holding theirs !

Finally, we have the aspects of aikido philosophy to take on board, although aikido is a Budo, the ideology is one of unification, 'bringing people together' and using aikido as a means of developing harmony between individuals thus under these auspices, practicality in technique isn't a major factor now, although I fully accept the legitimacy of aikido philosophy, I don't fully subscribe to the whole notion of "conflict resolution without violence" or indeed "Unification of people". Ultimately I try not to label or classify Aikido into anything other than "martial art" If people want spiritual development that's fine with me but I'm not qualified to teach such things thus, the first two aspects of my answer above relate to me any my interest in aikido.

Regards

[JinkokMike]

First of all, let me boldly state this is not a thread meant to bitch about styles or claim "my style is better than yours". don't turn this into a flame war. I don't plan to be offensive, but I know some people might react badly by reading what is going to follow... Just relax, and discuss... I've seen too many blind MAists totally refusing to see the shortcomings of their own styles to not state what I just did..




Now that i've been specific, let me ask my questions/ask my reflexion about Aikido...

I've been sparring recently with an Aikido performer and, well... he's getting totally overpowered.... even though he practiced about 3 times longer than i did (3 years versus a year for me (and half of this without a teacher, also rigourous))...

and even though he knows far more positions, locks and everything than I do, he can't do anything because of the speed and my footwork, mostly...

Is aikido directed more toward non-MAists? Or is it more of a martial art like TKD or Judo without "real" efficiency in the street? (and, well, if someone is a master in MA, it doesn't matter which style he use, he is still a master, i'm talking about mid-level practionners)

I think it could create a mature discussion if people are willing to

Hi Tatsuma, I must agree and disagree with what everyone else has said about the grade of a person doesn't matter, in my oppinion I think that depends on the school if it were a McDojo then people of higher grades you may expect to be beaten or unable to use their techinques incorrectly, for instance I know plenty of people who can perform Kata beautifully and there for pass their grading but couldn't fight their way out of a paper bag on the street. On the other hand asome people no matter what grade aren't naturaly bron fighters and so simply can't fight or use techniques to their situation.

As for Judo and TKD not having "real"efficiency on the street I think it comes down to how long you've been training in either art and if your the type of person to be able to pull off using Judo or TKD on the street. This is my oppinion anyway.

All the best

Mike

[JinkokMike]

Nice posts by the way Dave ;)

[Dave Humm]

In relation to the whole Aikido vs. other arts debate.

There are so many variables to this debate that it IMO becomes a nonsense to begin to rationally discuss it to a common conclusion.

At the end of the day "it" all boils down to what the individual student wants from their study and how honest they are about their own skills and importantly, the actual reason why they train.

Regards

[tinit]

i thought aikdo was ment to be a MA which can take down more than 1 oppent with ease?

[Dave Humm]

i thought aikdo was ment to be a MA which can take down more than 1 oppent with ease? “…meant to be" what exactly and to whom ? We all train for differing reasons, not just for self defence.

Substitute the word "aikido" in your statement with any number of arts both koryu and gendai and we'd have the same debate.

It isn't the art specifically which is meant to be anything in particular, it's the person using those skills in any given way. Because of the various styles of the art aikido can be any of the following:

A fighting method
A sport
An art
A philosophy
A means of deep spiritual and personal development
All of the above.

Regards

[kiaiki]

In support of what has been said before in this thread:
It's not Aikido which takes down opponents, it is PEOPLE. No MA can make any claims - only people can. For me, yes, Aikido has helped me deal with multiple attackers, but I'm me, nobody else.

All those people have different levels of skill, bravery, knowledge, etc which makes it pointless to talk in this way IMHO. Don't make claims for a particular MA:

If you do, you descend to the level of the worst McDojo: 'Train with me for 10 weeks and you will definitely be able to kill, bed beautiful blondes, be rich beyond your dreams and have powers of invisibility' - oh and it'll cost a mere £1,000!'

(anyone with the name Hopelessly Gullible may send me a PM for enrolment, but watch out - the blonde may not be female!! :) )

[Archibald]

In other words; aikido isn't the techniques. The techniques are (IMO) training tools to teach aikido.
Cheers!

I'ts interesting you say that, because it virtually sums up Kenjutsu perfectly, which of course has a very heavy influence on Aikido.

If you ever watch a sword match between two experts, there are no 'techniques' to speak of. One of them cuts, he either hits or he misses and is cut himself. This is simply good use of timing and distance - something you can't really learn properly unless you train in the techniques you see more commonly during class.

[tonyr1967]

Gents an interesting thread.

My comments for what they're worth.

I've trained in WC since the late 80's and found it both in and out of the training hall found the principles to be very effective.
Perhaps because of the way in which I was trained, personal aptitude or a little of both - I found WC to be particularly devastating in a very short period of time. As time improved, so did I (although ultimately - my personal choice was to move outside of the art and I now train JKD). However, I digress.

I guess what I'm trying to say in a rather inarticulate way is that training method and personal attributes are often the key differentiator in any kind of physical conflict.

Several years ago, I met a now friend on the South coast of the UK who studied and taught Aikido – he was one of Segal’s crowd – and truthfully was awesome to behold. His positioning was top notch and his techniques both practical and destructive.

[Dave Humm]

Several years ago, I met a now friend on the South coast of the UK who studied and taught Aikido – he was one of Segal’s crowd – and truthfully was awesome to behold. His positioning was top notch and his techniques both practical and destructive.Really ? I assume given the connection of the name and aikido - Your reference to "Segal" is none other than Steven Seagal ?

If that is the case, I'm surprised to learn that we have a Tenshin or Makato Dojo representitive in the UK. Can you be a bit more specific with location or perhaps a website ?

Regards

[tonyr1967]

Hi Dave,

The gent in question is called Dean Nichola, not sure of his whereabouts or even if he still teaches at all - As I left the area some time ago (90's) and then finally the south completely, a few years back.

He was a very nice guy and I got on very well with him; alas work took me away and I've struggled (failed miserably) to stay in touch.

Apologies in advance for my lack of assistance.

[Dave Humm]

No problems mate, thanks for that.

Regards

[aiki-jo]

Wow, mention Segal, and people (Dave=God) freak out.

tonyr1967, dude, when you talk to God, make sure you have every possible fact.

[Dave Humm]

Aiki-jo, try to post like an adult and not some pre-pubescent pre-gonad virgin.

You've been back on this forum for less than 2 minutes and you're already acting like a TROLL AGAIN, you've already had two swipes at me -one in this thread and one in another. I suggest you go read the forum's terms and conditions because, clearly your either

A.. too STUPID to realise what a TROLL is and has fogotten the previous threads and comments about you here in this forum, including those from moderators

or

B... You are intentionally acting like a pillock.

either way you need to grow up and act like an adult.

[kiaiki]

Aiki-jo

Does your forum name really translate into: 'one who is in harmony with the spirit of a wooden pole?'

Is this why you regard Dave as a higher being? We can all be childish - see how easy it is? Mine's 'kiaiki' which leads you round in a circle of energy and harmony- useful at times.

On this forum we ask each other questions because we are interested in knowing more about our art, not to score points, even when we argue (well, at least we try!).

As a reference point, imagine that you are in a public bar with all of us and ask yourself if you would be happy to express yourself in the same way. If you wouldn't feel happy to insult someone in that context, don't do it here!

[Dave Humm]

BTW His new MAP name is "Waterboy" :D As in the Adam Sandler role

[aikiMac]

Kiaiki -- he's stuck in the Sin Bin, so he can't talk right now.

Let's be nice. No need to goad him. "Don't feed the troll" and all that.

[Dave Humm]

Ok Mac... will do.

Just off to get a drink of water cos boy I'm a bit thirsty.

Sorry couldn't resist.

Here endeth the baiting.

[aikiMac]

;) and :p You're making me want to see that movie.
Have a good weekend, Dave.