[Choi Kwang Do] CKD – The Future?

[Scaramouch]

I would like to start a sensible (if possible) debate of what you think the long-term future of CKD is? Have you ever thought about whether CKD will still be being taught/exist in say +50 years? Are you interested? May be if you have kids training, you have thought about it?

I guess it was inconceivable to Funakoshi Gichin when he first started teaching, his style of Karate (Shotokan), in Japan in the 1930’s that it would be as popular as it is on a global scale nearly 80 years later, long after his death. I believe the numbers in the UK alone of those doing Shotokan is over 11,000 people.

Do you think at this time, where we have so many different TMAs and MMAs to choose from that CKD will be around in +50 years, when GM Choi is no longer with us? Do you think the style and organisation can withstand his loss? I just wonder what will happen, particularly with respect to the “Masters” that have joined CKD with senior Dan grades from other styles and whether an ugly power struggle could ensue…………

I guess its all very hypothetical, but do any of you have any thoughts or insights into the upper echelons of CKDMAI (i.e. those of you that have trained in Atlanta – e.g. amiller123) that could give us long term hope for the future?

[amiller127]

Ah. The £1,000,000 question. Didnt expect anyone to ask that one on the forum.

The answer is:

Im not sure what will happen when GMC eventualy dies. The ironic thing is, the person who I talked to it most about and was trying to lay the groundwork (as far as the UK was concenerend) for a future when GMC passed away, died three years ago. I havent heard anything on the subject since then, although I must admit that I havent asked GMC or Master Pereira. The death of Peter Wakes three years ago highlights the need for there to be some sort of plan in place for the future of CKD without GMC. Peter's death set CKD back in the UK by a few years. We are growing again now, but we lost a lot of direction with his passing and with his wife Karen taking a step away from CKD. That was the effect Peter had on CKD in the UK and I can only hope that CKDMAI has a good plan in place for any eventuality.

Im assuming that there is a plan with CKDMAI for the eventuality of GMC passing away or retiring. One thing I do know about GMC and CKD is that EVERY aspect of the art has been considered over and over, even down to why we have different coloured uniforms for different instructors. GMC considers everything and makes sure that whatever he does fits in to what he feels is best for CKD. So although I cant tell you what plan there is for the eventuality of his passing, i can pretty much guarentee that he has thought it through and he has something ready. And your question is probably something that most CI's in choi will be concerened about until they know what those plans are.

My guess is this. Whenever Dojunim decided to retire, or when he passes away there will be a commitee in Atlanta to steer CKD onward. Master Pereira, i could see as being the President of the company then. He is already acknowledged as the number 2 person in CKD, behind only GMC. I think the senior ranks of CKD Michigan and the UK will have some say in helping shape the future of CKD. People like Kevin Gallagher (GMC's son in law) would also probably have a good bit of influence on the commitee.
I could also possible see the senior ranks in CKD progressing through the higher ranks a little quicker so as to strengthen CKD in the world. I could see Mister Banfield, Harper, Wright and the people around the world who are currently 4th Dan being promoted to 5th in a little shorter time. Not so quick as too make a mockery of the Dan system, but allowed to progress a little quicker so that we can have legitimate Masters throughout the world who were promoted all of the way to their rank by GMC.

I think that CKDMAI are mindfull of this eventuality and thats why they are trying to get the CKD books out asap. You see there are many people in CKD that have a very good understanding of CKD and its benefits, but there isnt one person in the CKD world that I have met that has anywhere near GMC's knowledge on the art and its benefits. These books will hopefully help even the most senior CI's fully understand what GMC intends with this art and will push their level of knowledge even higher. With the books there to give us this extra knowledge and also with a good commitee running to govern CKD, I cant see any reason why it wont still be running in 50+ years time.

As for breakoffs, im sure that there will be the occasional few. Im not too worried about many of the masters leaving though as most of the people that have come over from other arts have been introduced by Master P and have good relationship with him.
There will undoubtably be people breaking away after GMC is no longer with us, but thats unavoidable. Just look at the ITF and see how bad things can get. But the ITF still survives to this day. Cant see why CKD wont.

Of course, this is all just guess work on my behalf. Im not sure what the plan is at the moment as I havent been made privy to it. I also know that a lot of the other senior CKD CI's in the UK are not sure as yet what will happen. Its something we will have to start asking CKDMAI soon.

[Scaramouch]

The future of CKD………a valid question I think? As a CKD convert from other TMAs I may be a little different from most in CKD, but then again may be not? As I notice a lot of CKD folk have often previously done TKD to varying degrees.

Although MAs are not particularly expensive pastimes, compared to some other sports or gym memberships, they do require the student to give-up a fair proportion of their time to training. You only live once, and as a family man I consider my time to be a very valuable “commodity”. I do not wish to “invest” a large proportion of my time to a style and association that has a limited future. I believe CKD has a lot to offer and I hope it does flourish and improve. I am particularly interested to see GM Choi’s book, when it eventually come out (its been a while………?). I think CKDMAI should look to the successful TMAs as examples of how it should be done (Judo, TKD and Shotokan Karate) – at the moment IMO CKDMAI looks a little “exposed” – but as you say there probably are contingencies in place.

I think the MAP forum is a great place to have open discussions on CKD. We are lucky to have this forum as the only other “one-person” style to be represented is JKD – very illustrious company you’ll agree?

[LilBunnyRabbit]

Well, there are contingencies in place, however not all of the chief instructors are happy with those contingencies. I'm sure that they will go along with them, at least at first, but I can see some sort of power struggle along the way, and possibly even a split between the UK and USA.

Hopefully it won't come to that.

[Scaramouch]

I do have some doubts regarding M Pereira taking over CKDMAI when the time comes...........

I have not met nor have I trained with him but I have had the misfortune of seeing his Roger Koo site:

http://www.roger-koo.com/

It is all very unnecessary. IMO if he wanted to reply to Mr Koo’s accusations he could have done so in a much more mature way and have kept his dignity – but by doing this he has lost my respect before I have even met him – that is sad.

[Shade]

Scaramouch, I have to agree with what you say here.

I too have seen that sight, and also Roger Koo's real site. Frankly, whilst I agree that there is obviously history between these gentlemen which goes way outside my own understanding, I do find it quite disgusting that someone who is of such a high rank feels the need to continue to fuel the fire.

I thought martial arts were supposed to teach you humility?

[amiller127]

I know what you mean by the site.

BUT

One thing that I have heard from students and other instructors is that they find it hard to believe that what Roger Koo writes on his site isnt true if CKDMAI doesnt make and effort to dispute it.

Ive read both his site and Master Pereira's. I can honestly say that from my experience of GMC and how ive personaly been treated by CKDMAI, that much of what Roger claims to happen is false. Not saying that things didnt go wrong 12 years ago. I wasnt in a position to know what happened in those early years, so its not my position to say whether their right or wrong. But present day, I cant say that much of what he claims has substance.

Ive read things on the KSD web site that didnt match up with my view of CKD. Without being direspectfull ive e mailed Roger Koo and posted to his guestbook, correcting one or two things or showing what I have experienced with CKD that seems to be completley the opposite to what Roger claims. For some reason, if you correct him he doesnt acknolwedge it on his site and keeps those claims that are known to be false up on his site. So it can be quite frustrating. So in some ways i can see why Master P made a site, but the way it was brought about wasnt the best. Rather than try to make fun of Roger, it would probably be more usefull to disprove some of Rogers claims. He has done that with one or two things, but overall it just seems to be aimed at making fun of Roger Koo.

Its interesting to note that one of the instructors who Roger claimed had a problem with CKD years ago has refuted those claims and HAS asked roger to put up his resignation letter. From what Bruce Cairney says Roger is twisting the truth on some of the things he claims. He tried to post to the KSD site, but had no luck, so he posted to the roger koo site.

In my opinion it would be a good idea for both Roger Koo and Master P to just delete the negative references on the site. Whatever happened 12 years ago cant be changed. I dont know the facts of the old days, but whether what Roger says is true or not he doesnt take into account that people can change and improve themselves. Even if what he says is true, from what I have seen 12 years on, the arguments about CKD and GMC no longer apply. Koo claims GMC tries to rip off his instructors and doesnt help them when they struggle. Ive had my class struggle and CKDMAI have allowed me to suspend paying them fees until i get back on track. Ive had nothing but help and encouragment from CKDMAI and the way they run now doesnt seem to bare any resemblance to what Roger has to say.

Its been 12 years of negative feeling. Wouldnt it be good if Roger Koo could stop focusing on CKD and make a better success of what he has. And it would be nice if Master P could then just close the roger koo site down. CKD has moved on since then, but i can understand Master P wanting to finally put his say in, but it would be more better if it was aimed at disputing the claims and not making it personal, dropping down to the same level as Roger Koo.

Having the highest rank in one art and the second highest in another art having a go at each other over something that happened so long ago isnt the best advertisment for either art.

[amiller127]

Just saw my signature at the end of the last post. Had to laugh. Seems quite appropriate considering the topic it was posted about.

[Shade]

Having the highest rank in one art and the second highest in another art having a go at each other over something that happened so long ago isnt the best advertisment for either art.

You are right of course.

Perhaps you should also email a link to this to Mr Pereira as well. He might take the hint.

[amiller127]

Originally posted by Shade
You are right of course.

Perhaps you should also email a link to this to Mr Pereira as well. He might take the hint.


Master P has the link for this site. I also know that he checks out sites with any details on CKD. Would imagine that he will see it soon enough, although he probably wont post a reply to the site.

As for him taking the hint. The site he made has been criticised by other instructors in CKD. Not all of them, but one or two have voiced their distaste for it. But as he says at the end of the day "Isnt freedom of speech great. Roger has had 8 years of using the Internet to say his side of the story and criticise CKD, so im going to use my right of speech to say my side of the story".

Cant really answer that really. Its his right to answer back, even if I think that it would be more beneficial to do so by disputing and proving wrong Roger Koo's allegations. And at the end of the day, I may not like 100% of whats on the site, BUT I can understand why he felt the need to do it.

Only thing I will say is whatever Master Pereira does, whether others think its right or wrong, he does it because he believes its in the best interests of CKD and once he decided that, he does it with 100% effort. Got to have a little admiration for him for that single mindedness, even if sometimes you think he's wrong. Once he's locked into doing something it takes an act of god to turn him around. Well, act of god or GMC, either way
:D

[Shade]

Well of course he is perfectly entitled to his own opinion, and of course he is entitled to create a website and put his own opinion and version of it up for all to see.

I am just voicing my own opinion, to which I am perfectly entitled, that to me he does himself no credit or favours.

[amiller127]

I know what you mean.

One way or the other its going to end one day!! Just dont know when :D

The other thing is that Roger seems to be a highly strung, bitter person. And after years of attacking CKD its too easy to get cheap thrills from winding him up. Ive seen Roger get quite nasty in his posts on the site of anyone who questions him, even when they have nothing to do with CKD. Check out his guestbooks to see what I mean. So having Master P say some of these things REALLY seems to annoy the hell out of him.

But at the end of the day, its not very dignified approach. And im sure a different approach to it would leave CKD with a better standing in the argument.

[Scaramouch]

I am in agreement with both amiller123 and Shade - M Pereira is entirely justified in replying to Roger Koo’s site because it is so provocative but yes, he would have been better advised to have taken the moral high ground rather than stoop to a similar level.

I suppose, as is suggested, there is obviously some history between Roger and Marshall, I think they both had TKD schools in the 1980’s in the London area before joining CKDMAI(?). I can imagine the early days of CKD were probably quite hard, and it was probably difficult to make a living let alone support a family, which I believe Roger Koo was trying to do - so may be that is where all the resentment comes from?

Looking to the future of CKD I’d like to what people think about kids in CKD. There have been a few threads on MAs and kids (in the General forum) and lots of discussion as to whether it’s a good or bad thing and so on. IMO it generally should have a positive effect in terms of improving co-ordination and discipline but I can see that with young kids, in particular, the “martial” aspects not being properly understood. CKD has one of the best organised MAs kids programs I have seen and the level/style of instruction is spot-on for little ones. But what do you think? Do you think it is all positive? Or mostly positive and a bit negative? Or a is just an after-school club with no real MA benefit to children at all?

One area that I think CKDMAI should seriously consider putting in some effort, particularly in the UK (but I couldn’t see why they don’t elsewhere), is in University clubs. If you look at the successful MA’s they are very well represented in most universities. Although students may not be a financially lucrative group to target it’s a case of once they get the CKD bug then they are likely to continue once they leave university. The TMA university clubs tend to have quite a different vibe to “normal” clubs, the aggression levels tend to be much lower and I think CKD would be successful if instructors were to make the effort to promote themselves more with the universities. Any thoughts?

[amiller127]

With regards to children in CKD, i cant speak on how the courses are run in Scotland. But from what ive experienced in Wales and also in Atlanta CKD training has some very good benefits for the children, not only physically, such as balance, co ordination etc. But also mentally, building self confidence, self esteem, assertivness. Its also very good for helping them to learn to control agression with some children.

The one thing we do make sure of in Wales is that the instructor is seen as someone that you can have fun with, BUT must listen to. We tend to be as friendly as possible with the kids, make them have a good time, but still keep the boundaries of discipline.

I think that any type of martial art training has positive benefits for children with the right type of instructor. The worst kind of instructor to have for children is someone who was taught in an old fashioned, overdisciplined way, who brings that training into his kids class.

Ive seen some instructors be so overly picky with children. In one local Karate class the instructor was getting furious with a child because his head wasnt at a perfect level for his stance. I actually saw him forcefully move the childs head to where he wanted it. The poor kid didnt seem too happy.

And before anyone starts having a go at me saying im knocking the way TMA teach children, im not doing that. There are many good instructors out there who can get the best out of children without being overbearing.

My grips is only with those instructors who trained with someone in a very specific demanding way, with no room for error. They then bring that teaching into the childrens class when they become instructors. Children need a different approach to adults when teaching them. They are only interested in fun and having a good time, and so you have to use fun concepts to get them to learn and enjoy it. People who are to overbearing can make children not want to train and put them off ma for a while.

[Scaramouch]

As I have said in my previous post, I think the CKD way of teaching kids is very good, probably the best approach I have seen.

I have attended TMA classes for both kids and adults in the past and I always thought the kids got a raw deal. As amiller123 says, the TMA instructors tend to be too critical and too heavy on the discipline - I would agree.

Has anyone heard of a CKD university club in the UK? IMO this would be a great way of promoting CKD to "professional" people, ensuring a greater participation and securing a better future for CKD. Just a thought.

[LilBunnyRabbit]

Actually, when I finally manage to get my full instructor's certification I plan to open one. Unfortunately so far life keeps getting in the way of training, meaning that I'm not training regularly enough to get the certificate.

[amiller127]

New i missed something in my last post. Thats what comes of trying to post and keep up with an IM conversation at the same time.

Have looked into university classes. Im studying myself so would be easy enough for me. Problem is that students are a hard group to get in my opinion. With all of their work commitments, drinking commitments and everything else its hard to get the people who join the club to stay past a few weeks. Also, from my experience the students i know think spending £30 for a year of a society is expensive (but £30 - £40 a weekend on drink is fine). If we have to charge them for training and also get them membership and insurance a lot are going to find it hard to do.

Its a good idea, but one that has a lot of issues to work out. Also, the societies i have been to with martial arts dont always have a competent instructor there. Been to one or two with just a black belt who has no qualification to teach.

[LilBunnyRabbit]

One of the possibilities I considered was to actually approach GMC on a special case scenario, to ask if we could offer University student discounts, and heavy ones at that, so that students could afford to train. Of course, if the martial art is registered as a society then it would also be possible to point out to him that the hall rental would most likely be free, or minimal. Unfortunately non-students would probably have to pay full rate, which might cause ill-feeling, so it'd probably be worth running almost two seperate schools.

[Scaramouch]

University clubs could be run in a number of ways to reduce costs - if that is seen as the main problem. If you can get sufficient numbers to join in freshers week the Atheltic Union usually gives a small "grant" to start-up. CKDMAI could perhaps be "persauded" to give a reduced membership/insurance for students? Training hall fees are usually minimal as well, since you are using university facilities, so you would expect training fees could be kept low.

The CKD instructors might not make a lot of money but the keener students might also train at a "parent" town/city club run by that instructor (or their senior instruc.) as well - so you could see it as an investment. May be offer an inscentive to train at the parent club, slightly reduced student rates?

As you say though, you do have to expect the drop-out rate to be quite high. Talking from past experience in TMA, I used to get 30-40 students join each year but only class sizes of about 10-15 by the new year. But even at 10-15 I would say its still a healthy number......?

[LilBunnyRabbit]

Actually, on the note of a grant, I'd be fairly sure that head office could be persuaded to accept the grant as a portion of the student's fees. Which would reduce prices quite a bit.

[Scaramouch]

I would agree that often, some Uni clubs have poor levels of instruction but with the formal CKD instructor system and high standards this should give CKD a strong advantage.