Tuite and Chin Na

[ladyhawk]

Does anyone study the art of Tuite or Chin Na?

As I understand it the techniques are broken down into 5 sections. Separating muscle, manipulating joints, stopping blood flow, stopping air flow and pressure point or nerve strikes. I was wondering if there is much emphasis on pressure points and disruption of chi in the techniques.

A person is not going to passively stand there and allow you to target points in a defensive situation unless you are working with a cooperating Uke or they're just plan stupid. How do you set
them up for your techniques?

[Darzeka]

Pressure points are not that hard to hit.

I like to think of them a "pain centres".
if it hurts hit it.
but I see your point if it is a small spot then most likely they will have a lock technique that will put them in range to strike it.

A spin off from my shu ha ri will be that they react to the attack and will perfom a lock or hold and will have many areas of attack from there.

There will will ways to get into range for something, probably not an intended target though.
Take the oppurtunites as they come.

of course I could be wrong.

[ladyhawk]

I have my doubts about the efficiency of pressure points in fast
acting defense situations. Actively moving during defense makes accurancy of striking a smaller target just right more difficult.
I posted a link to an article that you might find interesting.

[waya]

Pressure points are something you have to practice hitting alot. Never concentrate on only htting one point, it's more of a complete series of setup and point strike attacks. Alot like a boxer using jabs, etc to set up for a heavy right or uppercut. If you work on it enough no matter in grappling, joint locks, or striking you will make your techniques more damaging and accurate even if you miss a perfect strike on a vital point.

I have a friend in IL who traings Chi Na along with a few other Chinese based systems. I work out with him when I am there but don't really have a direct knowledge of the arts.

Rob

[ladyhawk]

Seems to me that pressure points can not stand on their own
and are best used in combination with other techniques to enhance the effectiveness of a technique.

Has anyone witnessed or experienced a knock out using a Tuite or Chin Na technique?

[waya]

Well, I have been put out with them more than once I hate to admit lol. The guy I work out with uses them in combination with numerous slapping type strikes and trapping techniques, but once he lands what he's working for, he nearly always takes me down. One strike that came in from an angle under my jaw line made me black out for a short time, and left me with a very nasty headache for a couple days. He used what is easiest described as an "inverted" ridge hand strike, using that edge of his hand, palm up, and hit me at about ST5 and likely hit ST6 at the same time. I had no real idea what happened until I got my senses back and he explained the strike. It was rapidly thrown, following several traps and a strike to my inner wrist to counter a punch I was throwing. That was when I decided to learn a little about vital point striking lol. I'm not positive this technique came specifically from Chi Na, but it is along the lines of the other techniques I have seen him do.

Rob

[ladyhawk]

So, it does require a set up and is used in combination with
another technique. Hmmm........

[Mike Flanagan]

Technically speaking I don't think one should refer to pressure point striking as chin na or tuite. These terms, in my understanding, are more about pressure point grappling rather than striking. I have seen light-force knockouts done using (light) strikes to pressure points, but I've not seen it done in grappling (except on video). I'm sure that it can be done, but not reliably. Not everyone responds to grabbing/seizing pressure on pressure points - ie. some people are 'non-responders' in this context. At the other end of the scale some people are highly sensitive and I'm sure would lose consciousness if enough gripping pressure were applied. But you have no way of knowing how sensitive someone is until you try it, so its not very reliable.

So I think its fine to incorporate such points into your grappling, as long as they are an added extra, ie. the technique does not rely on pressure points to work. But you mustn't sacrifice the rest of the technique in trying to make the pressure point grab work.

Having said that there are a few points that everyone responds to - eyes, windpipe and groin are the obvious examples. You can attack these in your grappling and get a fairly predictable response.

When it comes to striking points you're right, ladyhawk, that they're difficult to hit in a real violent confrontation. I would rarely just reach out to try to strike a vital point. However, with the right techniques you can make them work. The basic principle I try to use is to block and control (utilising strikes as part of this process if appropriate) so that you can manoevre the attacker into a position where you can attack a vital point with a high degree of confidence of getting it right. As one of my sensei has said "If you use the right technique, its almost impossible to miss the points". You must always strive for powerful technique though and do not rely on the 'magic' of vital points.

Hope this helps,

Mike

[ladyhawk]

Mike,
I agree with you, seize control and then attack the points? I'm curious, the "light-force knockouts" that you speak of, what points
were targeted?

[Mike Flanagan]

Originally posted by ladyhawk
Mike,
I agree with you, seize control and then attack the points? I'm curious, the "light-force knockouts" that you speak of, what points
were targeted?

What I've seen with my own eyes? The occipital ridge (GB20 to be specific in TCM nomenclature), or the brachial plexus spring immediately to mind. There are other good points, but I'm not in the habit of experimenting by trying to knock people out - I don't think it does the victim any good at all.

Mike

[Freeform]

I use the PP's in grappling for set-ups, never as a goal in itself i.e. the PPKO. Don't trust them, or my own ability at that ;) , to be able to both do it and do it safely!

Colin

[shotokanwarrior]

Hey,
Where is the brachial plexus???

[Mike Flanagan]

Hey,
Where is the brachial plexus???

Look it up on the interweb. That's what its there for.

Mike

[angry]

Try looking on top of your shoulder!

[DAT]

For the record tuite and chin na are not arts or systems. Tuite is the joint manipulation "hidden" in karate kata which is broken down and explained when a sensei analyzes each movement for his/her students, aka bunkai. The joint manipulation controlling techniques are essentially the same found in jiu-jitsu.

Chin na is part of many Chinese pai or complete systems from Taiji to Southern Mantis to Eagle Claw. Like the tuite techniques of karate, chin na are joint manipulating controlling techniques. The Chinese variation is often softer than the Okinawan counterpart but just as effectve.

In recent times in the west, some have extracted the chin na from various Chinese systems and created a system solely using chin na techniques similar in appearance to Japanese jiu-jitsu and aiki systems/styles.

Chin na and tuite concepts can be found in many systems such as Aikido, Hapkido, and the Jiu-jitsu universe.

[SoKKlab]

Chin Na article here:

http://www.martialartsadvice.com/cat.php?cat=5

Will explain what you need to know.

[shotokanwarrior]

I can't find it, Sokklab, what link is it under?

Look it up on the interweb. That's what its there for.



All I found was a load of stuff about Erb's palsy, no use whatsoever.

[SoKKlab]

I can't find it, Sokklab, what link is it under?
All I found was a load of stuff about Erb's palsy, no use whatsoever.

You're quoting the wrong person SW. Twasn't me that told you to look it up.

But as i'm here now, the Brachial plexus is on the ridge of the Trapezius Muscle where it meets the neck-A classic 'Karate Chop' point.

The Trapezius is the Kite shaped muscle that extends down the back between the shoulders, either side of thew spine and can be seen as the lumps of muscle to the side of your neck from the front.

Here's a decent explaination of what where etc the Brachial Plexus is:

http://depts.washington.edu/anesth/regional/brachialplexusanatomy.html

I posted a link to articles on my website about Chin Na; what it is what it does etc, again here:

http://www.martialartsadvice.com/cat.php?cat=5

Hope that clears that up.

[Mike Flanagan]

The real question is not so much where the brachial plexus is. Any anatomy text should tell you that. The real question should be 'how do I hit it?'.

Mike

[Knight_Errant]

Hey,
Where is the brachial plexus???
It's the name given to the bundle- i.e. the plexus of nerves running down your arm. The fact that it's largely an internal structure leads to the conclusion that actually damaging it in a fight is a bit of a long shot.

[SoKKlab]

The real question is not so much where the brachial plexus is. Any anatomy text should tell you that. The real question should be 'how do I hit it?'.

Mike

With a Sledgehammer of course.

[shotokanwarrior]

Crap sorry, Sokklab. I was looking down the thread in my typical hurried, bull-in-a-china-shop fashion.

And thanks for the links.

[shotokanwarrior]

I know where it is now and I agree with KE. That thing is in so deep, you would have a pain in the arse hitting it when someone was in their stance with their muscles contracted.

[SoKKlab]

It's the name given to the bundle- i.e. the plexus of nerves running down your arm. The fact that it's largely an internal structure leads to the conclusion that actually damaging it in a fight is a bit of a long shot.

Sorry to contradict you old bean but you is incorrect on this matter.

It is very easy to hammer someone's Brachial nerve, in fact it's one of the easiest 'Knockout Points' to reach and hit, because the Bundle of nerves surfaces nicely on the ridge of the trapezius near the Neck.

It's one of the easiest 'Pressure Point' techniques to demonstrate, in that you just whack it hard with a strong edge of hand blow or hammerfist there and the stars come out. Hence why the Combatives/ RBSD crowd are very fond of walloping brachials.

Hence its Rep as the original 'Judo Chop' point.

Saying that, the question would then be, why?
Why would you want to purposefully aim for the Brachius in a situation, when you could as easily belt the Temple, the Collar Bone etc?

And the Answer might be-because it was available.

[Mike Flanagan]

Pretty much agree with Sokklab. I find the brachial plexus pretty easy to hit. its just a question of hitting around the base of the sternomastoid muscle (or rather just lateral to it) and of course at the appropriate angle. Frankly the area is so rich in nerves that even if you don't get the brachial plexus you'll still get something interesting.

As for accessibility, I find I can get at it from angles which wouldn't produce the power necessary to break the collarbone or to effectively strike the temple - but even without great power I can still get a prodigious effect from targetting the brachial plexus.

Mike

[madfrank]

Hi

Yes the root of the plexus is a brilliant spot to hit.

I've KO'd with it.

It was used by the cops dont know if it still is though

MF