Whats your companion art to Taiji?

[Syd]

It is not uncommon to find external stylists and internal stylists who practice more than just one art. Some people claim up to 5 or more in their lifetime and while this is possible I am always a bit skeptical of mastery given the style hopping.

However, I do feel that it is well within the capabilities of any individual who is dedicated to have two major arts in which they can specialize and to some degree synergize in combat applications.

Two such common groupings are usually Taijiquan and Baguazhang or any of the former two and Hsing I, because they are indeed very close to one another in terms of ideology and in applications. They are all internal arts who draw on the same concepts of economy in movement and explosive power.

So the question for me is what is your companion art to Taijiquan? Is it an external style or something thats a complete polar opposite to the internal arts? Or have you decided to consolidate on you internal arts and fully invest?

Most of the Taiji fighters in my own system gravitate towards Bagua because the head of our system has chosen both Taijiquan and Bagua to be his own 2 systems within the martial arts. I think very highly of Baguazhang but find myself looking further afield for some personal reason inherent in my makeup.

So what have you chosen as your companion art to Taijiquan and why? What was your reasoning and how do you find the two arts conceptually and comparatively? Do you plan to continue with this second art or is it more dabbling?

Myself? I have recently decided on my second art which is sometimes known as the fourth internal style of Liu He Ba Fa. My reasons for this is that LHBF is a Taoist art and a Wudang Art. It was a closed door system and is actually very, very old. It has several sub systems with varying influences and flavours from Taijiquan to Baguzhang and Hsing I... but it is something quite different to all three.

Essentially it is more dynamic looking than Old Yang or New Yang and I have found a Master who is willing to teach me an even older system that pre-dates LHBF and is essentially unheard of. This older art (I shall not name it) came to him from two senior Taoist Priests in Hong Kong many years ago and focusses on sacral energy work.

I am dedicated to working with internal energy and learning the secrets of fighting and healing internally and so for me LHBF and the *other* art form are a perfect fit for my tastes. I have not yet begun training in LHBF because I have been carefully searching for the right teacher who teaches the right art. I can now say without equivication that I have found my second art.

Whats yours?

Best, Sydhttp://waterspirit6x8.tripod.com//sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/lhbf.gif

[Hakko-Ryu]

hmmm i'd love the chance to delve into chen tai-ji when the time comes...i think it'd go great with the Baji quan i'm learning.

[Syd]

G'day Hakko,

I must admit Baji looks like a great art and funnily enough it reminds me quite a bit of Hsing I. I think you would easily be attracted to Chen Liao Jia as it is very long fisty looking and similar to Hsing I at times also. it seems that Baji would be a great companion art to Chen.

How long have you been training in Baji and what weapons sets do you have if any?

[Hakko-Ryu]

not very long! hmm i think this would be my third month...no weapons yet! looking forward to the long spear/pole training though. Chen style seems to be very explosive, similar to baji...and yes Hsing I does look like Baji at times, except Hsing I stances tend to be a little more upright i think...Oh and this is the common grouping from the lineage of Baji that my sifu is from...Baji, Piqua, Bagua, Old form Chen Tai-Ji, Tang Lang, Islamic Long Fist and sometimes Hsing I....thats a lot to learn!!! i'm hoping to at least be proficient/knowledgable in 3 within my lifetime....and my choices would be Baji, Piqua and Chen Taiji :)

[Syd]

Sounds good mate, what made you choose Baji and what led you to this art in particular? ;)

[quartermaster]

one point

i read and more importantly, believe that chen taiji is a waste when compared to the original yang or certain other styles.

yang chen fu, inventor of chen style, copied the yang lu ch'an style and removed the yang energy from it in too many places for it to be considered a martial art. thus the chen style has transcended into a slow-only form with no substance. yang chen fu made (or should that be remade) thestyle so it could be learned easilly and quicker by everyone to improve the health of all china, a noble ambition but the man himself died of what the chinese would call, having too much yin energy and no yang to ballance it out

rgds

[Kat]

GF
Sorry But
YCF did not create the Chen style,rather he carried on the Yang style taking out many explosive movements of the YLC form and going on to create 3 versions of Yang style.
Chen family style depending on what you believe is said to predate Yang style.YLC spent time with within the Chen village and proceded to make up his version.It is generally believed that eithier Chen Wan Ting created Chen style after a period in the army,or that someone else came to the village(yes the good old Daoist Monk theory) and influenced martial practises.(eg Chang San Fang -Wang Zong Yue theory)
Personally I don't consider any TJQ style a waste of time.;)

[nzric]

I agree with Kat. Cheng fu did take out the explosiveness of the lu chan style, and he wasn't the perfect physical specimen himself, but he was teaching for a different audience and had a different emphasis (i.e., the health/qigong).

GF, I take it you're a fellow Montaigue student (like a few of us on this forum), since you talk about the old lu chan style being explosive, but there are many variations of Yang style and it's not conclusive exactly which style lu chan actually did.

All styles are variations of the one taken from the Chen family and mixed with other arts (for good or bad), so they're all blends.

I've been doing taiji for 2 1/2 years and bagua for one year, so I want to concentrate on these for at least five years more before I train seriously in something else.

In my opinion, the internal arts are variations on the same principles of movement (and we've talked about what defines an internal art). Forms are just a way to introduce the body to the movements - at a high enough stage, I'd think there would be little difference between a Wu style tai chi fighter and a Chen, Sun or Yang style fighter. There would be favourite movements and habitual reactions, but tai chi is supposed to be formless, so I think all training should have the ultimate goal of abandoning the style altogether and just having a 'taiji' style.

Excuse me while I remove my head from my ar.e

[Hakko-Ryu]

I've always been awed by Baji for some odd reason! Maybe because of the obvious power that lies behind the style... I've also read and heard of many stories of Li Shu Wen, a legendary Baji master, which became my source of inspiration to want to learn Baji . Here's a great site for some good read on Baji if you're interested!
http://crane.50megs.com/index.html

Ginger Fist- Chen Tai Ji is a waste??!?!!?!!? From what i know Chen TJ is the most combat effective out of the various styles of tai-ji...it has always been...the old frame Chen Tai ji is not done slow but at normal pace and very explosive...some don't even recognize that it's a tai ji style.

[zun]

I started with kickboxing and naturally progressed with Muay Thai because it was also taught by in the gym by a different trainer.

The MT trainer was very demanding and the training very hard and so none of the KB students with me wanted to train with the MT. I saw it as an opportunity to improve faster :)

I wouldnt say the MT and KB are my companion styles to taiji rather they have been a (not-so-gentle) introduction to a combat art for me.

I started taiji originally for the health claims made by my friends who quite seriously into chi-kung.

I now consider taiji my main art. MT and KB is more for physical (external) fitness and the andrenaline rush :)

[Shaolin Dragon]

My Sifus teach Mok ka and Tai Chi alongside each other, as they feel that the two complement each other perfectly. The internal and external aspects work together, not against each other.

[Syd]

Kat,

Whats the deal with I Chuan?

[Kat]

Yi Quan is an art fomulated in the 1950s by Wang Xiang Zhai who was a student of Guo Yi sheng Xing Yi Quan.Like many MA from Beijing area he wrote essays about Boxing,unlike many others he disbelieved in the Master student system and the use of forms as training.His essays are an excellent read.He acepted many challanages,and is generally know as a modern day master.Many people claim lineage off him,Yao Zhong Zun and his son Yao Cheng Guang operate an excellent school in Beijing.There is a great balance of Health and Combat in a practical no BS fashion.
Zhan Zhuang, Fali Shili Tuishou and Sanshou are all taught in a progessive and non secretive method.They won't tell you it will take 20 years to learn to fight.There is a nice balance between conventional Cardio work and more medative practises.

Others schools seem to focus on Kong Jin (empty force) which is sad IMHO as WXZ was against this sort of deception.(Don't anyone start.:rolleyes: )
Check out
www.yiquan.com
ANU has several practioners teaching
Also K Fong at UNSW is bringing out a Mainland BGZ teacher early 2004.I will keep you informed.
BTW The Yi Quan school in Sydney's west is not from this style.
Hope that is of some use

[Syd]

I heard from A that you were into this system and I have been hearing good things about it for a long time now. I did have a brief look into it and I think the emphasis on meditation is excellent.

I have tried to understand exactly how the martial side of Yi Chuan is taught. Am I right in saying that it is not a standard system of self defence but rather individual postures are worked on? I couldn't quite get my head around *how* the martial art side of this system is taught... care to enlighten?

[Kat]

Sure,
Partner work is used in the form of slow to fast stimulas training.
eg: A attacks in set format,B defends with shown tech,
B then contiunues within set principles to takedown and finish A or escape
Apart from iniatial response B can experiement with what he would like to do,if it is not working B is encouraged to soften/distract(hit targets) and move on to another method or get out (escape).Goal is to incapacitate A with minimial damage to B
This starts off in Slow and Soft with focus on posture and angles of attack with complience from A.With practise it becomes Fast Fluid and Hard with resistence from A and any spontaneous response from B.

Pinciples of Power generation and movement are taught via
ZZ :Breathing, Visualisation,Focus,Intent
Shi Li/Fali:Testing of strength and explosive force
Mocabu: Basic intergration of Power and Movement(How to move while maintaining "root" and expressing force)I found BGZ Circle Walking to be an excellent complement to this exericse.
Tui Shou( Push hands):Connection with Opponent,and basic expression of power(fajin)

This method is not uncommon but I find more direct with a straight into it attitude.

I hope thats not too longwinded,thats as much as I can comfortably explain without demostration.With a good partner its almost as Fun as Wrestling;)

Despite the reputation that YQ has for ZZ,it is far from the whole art rather just the foundation training.

[quartermaster]

whoops looks like i sounded a bit out of order whenever that last one of mine there was. sorry, i don't think that any MA style could be a waste of time, my point was that i am of the oppinion that taking out most of the explosiveness certainly seems to invalidate the combat application to the art.
before responding to this, please bear in mind that i don't claim to know any of this it is all the oppinion of someone who wishes he could someday try one of these arts (taiji, bagua, hsing i, liu he ba fa, etc.)

i didn't mean to sound like a pigheaded moron

[Syd]

I'd never seen the events mixed up like that before! *L* It made for interesting reading. :)

[KungFuGrrrl]

I study for over 7 years now. I study Wing Chun Kung Fu it goes hand in hand with my Tai Chi Chuan.

[Chase]

Hi Syd, I practice Tai & Kali mainly, but have practiced Hsing I, Wing Chun, many styles of Chi Kung & Nei Kung as well as aspects of Goju & Jujitsu.

Chase

[xuande]

Actually Tai Chi is my second style. Hung Gar is what I primarily spend time training in, though I've been spending quite a bit more time on chi gungs lately. I'm also dabbling a bit in Northern Shao Lin, though I doubt I'll ever be very proficient at it some habits from my southern training are just too hard to break.

[khafra]

Essentially it is more dynamic looking than Old Yang or New Yang and I have found a Master who is willing to teach me an even older system that pre-dates LHBF and is essentially unheard of. This older art (I shall not name it) came to him from two senior Taoist Priests in Hong Kong many years ago and focusses on sacral energy work.


Sounds like a close descendant of Kundalini Yoga, rather than a strictly internal Chinese system. Is it related to that or Kalaripayat, to your knowledge? I've thought of Kundalini as a good companion to Chi Gung, although I think the Chi Gung should be learned to at least a basic level first. Maybe someday I'll actually carry all this learning out...

[Chase]

Actually Tai Chi is my second style. Hung Gar is what I primarily spend time training in, though I've been spending quite a bit more time on chi gungs lately. I'm also dabbling a bit in Northern Shao Lin, though I doubt I'll ever be very proficient at it some habits from my southern training are just too hard to break.
Hi xuande, What styles of Chi Kung? I used to practice more Wai Dan styles, but now I've changed to the Nei Dan styles like the 5 Organ, but mostly the water & fire paths of the microcosmic orbit.
Take Care,
Chase

[squarepusher13z]

Yang style Tai-chi Chuan is my main form, but i also do a little Xing Yi (Hsing I.) It may not be a completley seperate art, but my sifu is currently teaching me a drunken form of Tai-chi wich is very interesting. Its much more readily combat applicable, but at the same time it still feels liek tai chi, It still uses the same breathing systems too. Rather bizarre but thus far very affective ( ive been doing it for 2 weeks so i really dont know yet)

[KungFuGrrrl]

I study Tai Chi Chuan (Yang Style24 and just learning Wu style89) and Wing Chun Kung Fu
I find WC is external that becomes internal and TCC is internal that becomes external so they fit hand in glove. When I work with partners the flow of chi sau play gets fused in with push hands! and I do get in some good hits. some Kung Fu brothers say *what is that?* regarding the TC moves hehe.....(after a hit)

I find that some of the strikes in Wu style are similar if not the same as some of the wing chun moves.

I love it absolutely love it.

KFG

[RobP]

"taking out most of the explosiveness certainly seems to invalidate the combat application to the art"

Actually Yang style has plenty of explosiveness in some of its forms, in its solo fa jing drills, in staff training and other things. For combat application it's not a lot different from Chen style IME.

I started adding Systema into my Taiji, but now just train Systema.

[Hugh]

I currently study Chen Tai Chi old frame and have been considering branching out to include Hsing I as well. Both are taught at the Internal Martial Arts school i go to and I've been told that both arts complement each other very well.

[Mad Yakker]

one point

i read and more importantly, believe that chen taiji is a waste when compared to the original yang or certain other styles.

yang chen fu, inventor of chen style, copied the yang lu ch'an style and removed the yang energy from it in too many places for it to be considered a martial art. thus the chen style has transcended into a slow-only form with no substance. yang chen fu made (or should that be remade) thestyle so it could be learned easilly and quicker by everyone to improve the health of all china, a noble ambition but the man himself died of what the chinese would call, having too much yin energy and no yang to ballance it out

rgds

:confused: :confused: :confused:

[xuande]

Chase:

Well I practice a bit of both. There will be periods of time when I seek movement and some when I don't. The internal chi gungs that I do most often are Shu Xin Pingxue and Dragon's Gate. For the external ones I have been doing iron palm for the past two years. Quite a few of the advanced Hung Gar sets I practice have some sort of internal work or as we usually call it dragon sequence in the beggining of the form, its like a mini chi gung to get you all energized for a good long set.

[Chase]

Chase:

Well I practice a bit of both. There will be periods of time when I seek movement and some when I don't. The internal chi gungs that I do most often are Shu Xin Pingxue and Dragon's Gate. For the external ones I have been doing iron palm for the past two years. Quite a few of the advanced Hung Gar sets I practice have some sort of internal work or as we usually call it dragon sequence in the beggining of the form, its like a mini chi gung to get you all energized for a good long set.

Hi xuande, I start with the Microcosmic Orbit for nine revolutions, then an extended Tai Chi set (left & right), then do a lot of Kali, & finally the Macrocosmic Orbit & two sets of Tai Chi sword. The sword form seems to help return my chi to my tan tien.
Ingat ka,

[Li Nan-Lung]

My club (www.goldenlion.com.au (http://www.goldenlion.com.au)) teaches Tai Chi as well as Hung Fut Style Kung Fu. Apparently they go well together, but I've yet to get the funds to test this :)

[Mo Ling]

I use Chen taijiquan as a compliment to my Chen taijiquan, it works very well.


M


www.taijigongfu.com

[Hugh]

I use Chen taijiquan as a compliment to my Chen taijiquan, it works very well.


M


www.taijigongfu.com

Im sure it does :)

[Protein Origami]

I'm primarily a tai-chi stylist (about 20 years), but I've practiced quite a few other things (mostly for just a few months or at most 2 years):

- Brazilian Jiu-jitsu
- Aikido
- Karate
- Judo
- Capoeira
- Western-style boxing

I don't claim to be an expert at any of these other styles. Mostly I took the classes
so that I could spar with people from that particular style. I can tell you, the first
time I came up against a capoeira expert, I was rather baffled. He stayed low
on the ground and just kept on doing foot sweep after foot sweep. Took me months
to figure out how to fight those guys. Brazilian Jiu-jitsu was another eye-opener.
My tai chi skills worked well enough when I was on my feet, or even on my knees,
but when I started out on my back (something we practiced often in class), I couldn't
figure out how to use tai chi moves at all (okay, a bit of Chen style's spiraling energy,
but nothing else worked).