Combat Hapkido DVDS

[stoneheart]

Could someone please list a few of techniques which are included on the Pelligrini Black Belt series? I know someone who is getting deployed to Iraq and he's interested in taking along a few MA DVDs to pick up a few tricks on. I'm going to buy him a few videos as a present and am considering the Combat Hapkido set. Thanks!

[doc97]

I haven't seen them,but I have heard pretty good things, at least nothing bad about them. That would be a nice gift, Pelligrini has an article in Taekwondo time about teaching over in the middle east. It was a good article. I think he taught some combat hapkido to the the 10th mountain division, but I may be wrong.

[Thomas]

Could someone please list a few of techniques which are included on the Pelligrini Black Belt series? I know someone who is getting deployed to Iraq and he's interested in taking along a few MA DVDs to pick up a few tricks on. I'm going to buy him a few videos as a present and am considering the Combat Hapkido set. Thanks!
The first 10 volumes (on 5 DVDS) covers yellow belt to first dan and cover the following material (roughly):

Mainly the videos introduce the core curriculum and techniques, which can be added to and modified through other modules. I don't recommend "learning' from videos but they are set up nicely and a couple of guys could work through some of it.

Break falls
Back fall, Side fall, Forward Roll, Forward Fall, Backwards roll, Forward dive, Rolling Escape

Kicks
Front, Side, Roundhouse, Back, Inside Crescent, Outside Crescent, Scoop, Slap, Upward Knee, Roundhouse Knee

Strikes
Vertical fist, Hammerfist, Knife Hand, Spear Hand, Backfist, Uppercut, Ox Jaw, Inside Elbow, Hook Punch, Palm Heel, Outside Elbow, Upward Elbow, Tiger Mouth, Back Elbow


Techniques/ Situation
Same Side Wrist Grab Breakaways 14
Def. vs. Same Side Wrist Grab 20
Def. vs. Cross Wrist Grab 8
Def. vs. Side Wrist Grab 5
Def. vs. Punch (4 x Cross/Jab, 2 x Hook) 6
2 Hands on 1 Wrist Breakaways 3
Def. vs. 2 Hands on 1 Wrist 6
Def. vs. 2 Hands on 2 Wrists (Front) 6
Def. vs. 2 Hands on 2 Wrists (Rear) 4
Def. vs. 1 Hand Shoulder Grab (Front) 8
Def. vs. 1 Hand Lapel/ Chest Grab 5
Def. vs. Back Collar Grab (from Front) 3
Def. vs. 2 Hand Lapel/Chest Grab 6
Def. vs. 1 Hand Middle Sleeve Grab 2
Def. vs. Side Body Grab (armpit area) 2
Def. vs. 2 Hand Middle Sleeve Grab (Rear) 1
Def. vs. 2 Hand Shoulder Grab (Rear) 1
Def. vs. Belt Grab (Palm Down) 2
Def. vs. Belt Grab (Palm Up) 4
Def. vs. Hostile Handshake 6
Def. vs. Full Nelson 5
Def. vs. Hair Grab 4
Def. vs. Kicks (Front, Roundhouse, Side) 4
Def. vs. Bear Hugs (Rear – Trapped) 4
Def. vs. Bear Hugs (Rear – Untrapped) 3
Def. vs. Bear Hugs (Front – Trapped) 2
Def. vs. Bear Hugs (Front –Untrapped) 3
Def. vs. Side Headlocks 4



I haven't seen them,but I have heard pretty good things, at least nothing bad about them. That would be a nice gift, Pelligrini has an article in Taekwondo time about teaching over in the middle east. It was a good article. I think he taught some combat hapkido to the the 10th mountain division, but I may be wrong.
He's done some seminars at Fort Drum (10th MTN Div) and did a couple week tour in Afghanistan teaching the troops (along with Master Gray, my instructor). He's really serious and enthusiastic about working with the troops. You might consider checking out www.ichf.com for some of the articles and his contact number. Give him a call and ask for his advice.

[Alain]

Stoneheart,

Depending on what your friend wants to learn, may I suggest for self-defense type techniques checking out my dvd Streetfighting Essentials or Kelly McCann's Combatives set. (Kelly aka Jim Grover)

You can learn about both at my site: www.burrese.com

If you want more Hapkido joint locking techniques, my Hapkido Hoshinsul has locks for several joints, or my Lock On series has even more on each lock. More about these are also located at my site.

Another good resource that just came out this year is my friend Wim Demere's Combat Sanshou set. If he is interested in learning a weapon, my cane dvds would be good.

I might have other suggestions if I knew just what he wanted to learn. To be honest, I have seen some of the Combat Hapkido videos and I do not think the instruction is nearly as detailed or as good as what is presented in my dvds or the others I recommend. But people's opinions vary. I always tell people to watch one of his dvds and then watch mine and see which one you can learn more from.

Yours in Training,

Alain

www.burrese.com
www.aikiproductions.com

[stoneheart]

Thank you, Gentlemen. That's exactly the information I'm looking for. This is for a semi-regular practice partner of mine. He's certainly experienced enough to where he can pick up a tech or two by working it out himself after getting the initial choreography from a video.

Mr. Burrese, I will certainly look over your series too.

[hollywood1340]

Stoneheart,

Depending on what your friend wants to learn, may I suggest for self-defense type techniques checking out my dvd Streetfighting Essentials or Kelly McCann's Combatives set. (Kelly aka Jim Grover)

You can learn about both at my site: www.burrese.com

If you want more Hapkido joint locking techniques, my Hapkido Hoshinsul has locks for several joints, or my Lock On series has even more on each lock. More about these are also located at my site.

Another good resource that just came out this year is my friend Wim Demere's Combat Sanshou set. If he is interested in learning a weapon, my cane dvds would be good.

I might have other suggestions if I knew just what he wanted to learn. To be honest, I have seen some of the Combat Hapkido videos and I do not think the instruction is nearly as detailed or as good as what is presented in my dvds or the others I recommend. But people's opinions vary. I always tell people to watch one of his dvds and then watch mine and see which one you can learn more from.

Yours in Training,

Alain

www.burrese.com
www.aikiproductions.com

Well, back it up with a good instructor and the DVD's are quite helpful. :)

[Alain]

James,

I sent you and e-mail a while back and never heard back?

Alain

www.burrese.com
www.aikiproductions.com

[JimH]

GMP's ICHF materials are Very Good.
(Thomas did a Great Job Listing some of the Materials covered)

Alain's "Street Fighting Essentials" is Very good.

I also Like Shihan James Vee Arnis Materials for their Reality of usage.

For some one being deployed I would also say that Materials by Kelly McCann,aka Jim Grover,are very good basic use material for close in Killing , enemy destruction concepts
(I would recommend Carl Cestari materials but the originals are hard to find cheap and the Re release prices are high)

Combat Krav Maga by Moni Aizik materials are good

Kapap Materials by Avi Nardia are good

McCanns materials are very basic ,easy to use and straight forward,military Battlefield usable.

If one was deploying on a Peace keeper/Police action Mission then the other Materials are good for compliance to breaking and injury with an after thought of using killing strikes.

The other materials listed that are no Hapkido titled are Jujitsu based and all similar in use for Hapkido practioners.

[Alain]

I want to clarify one of the things I do not like about many martial art instructional videos/dvds and why I don't really recommend them.

I personally do not like videos where the instructor does not "teach" I don't care for videos where the instructor just demonstrates a technique a couple times with a voice over saying a couple lines about the technique. For someone who knows the techniques and needs a review, sure this is okay, but for someone with no experience to try and actually learn, it makes it much harder. It is hard enough to learn from videos anyway, but these are even harder. This is why I don't give recommendations for dvds of this style. It is sort of a personal bias. I just really prefer an instructor who teaches to the camera.

That's why I made a point that with the dvds I've done, I always want to teach and some of the best compliments I have recieved have been from people who say they can actually learn from my products. I try to walk you through each technique the same way I would if you were there at a seminar or class with me. The only thing is I can't watch you and help you do it, so I try to make the dvds as clear as possible and point out possible mistakes to help the viewer along.

Because I prefer videos like this, those are the ones I recommend more. Kelly McCann does a very good job of teaching combatives and shooting on his dvds. I like his no nonsense style of teaching and he teaches some very practical things. His book Street Smarts Firearms and Personal Security has a lot of good information too. (It is a collection of the articles he used to write for Guns and Ammo and Handguns)

You can see more about his book and dvds here:

http://www.burrese.com/Personal_Security_&_Self_Defense/Products/Paladin_Products/kelly_mccann_aka_jim_grover.htm

Jim mentioned Shihan James Vee Arnis. I have seen some of his videos and he also does a very good job of teaching some very practical stuff. He has a lot of energy and I like him and what he was doing too.

I think Hock H. does a good job of teaching on his videos. He has a ton of them out there and I don't know which might be better than others. But a couple of the older videos of his that I've seen were decent and he did a good job of explaining and demonstrating as he taught.

Another good Hapkido resource would be the dvds by GM J.R. West. I have the one of his that was filmed at a live seminar and it is good. He has three others, and I just ordered one of them to check it out. I personally know GM West and have attended the big Hapkido seminar he hosts twice a year a couple of times. So the seminar dvd I have of his was a good reminder of what it was like when I was learning from him live at one of his seminars. (I was not at the one that was filmed) GM West is a very good Hapkido instructor and his teaching on the dvds is so you can understand and learn. (It was live at a seminar, so naturally he is teaching not just demonstrating, and the dvd was edited pretty good for a live event) I'm looking forward to getting the one of his I just ordered to see how it is, but I expect it to be good and I'll end up getting the other two as well.

Again, it really depends on what a person is interested in learning. There are a lot of good resources out there. If you want grappling, Mark Hatmaker has some very good dvds where he instructs very clearly.

The key is to get in the gym and actually follow along with the dvds and practice and learn what is being taught, and to actually feel the stuff you are learning to incorporate it into your personal training.

Yours in Training,

Alain

www.burrese.com
www.aikiproductions.com

[hollywood1340]

James,

I sent you and e-mail a while back and never heard back?

Alain

www.burrese.com
www.aikiproductions.com

Sorry about that, I've not received it. Try
hollywoood1340atGmail.com

[Thomas]

Stoneheart,

Depending on what your friend wants to learn, may I suggest for self-defense type techniques checking out my dvd Streetfighting Essentials ...
(bold face added)

Here's a review (http://www.hapkidoforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=53&t=1964) I did of this DVD.

Overall, it's very good and Mr Burrese really does a nice job of creating "instructional" DVDs that can used to supplement training.

The Combat Hapkido videos are, in my opinion, more of a reference set that really need lots of practice and training with qualified instructors. The benefit of this is that they cover a wide range of material and go into a great level of depth, not only through the core set but also through the add-on materials. Mr Burrese's Streetfighting Essentials covers a lesser amount of material in a deeper way, although I'd still recommend it to be used as a supplement to instructor-guided training.

[windtalker]

Nearly a year ago this cousin of mine asked for Kelly McCann dvds for his Christmas/birthday present. There are only a couple of days between said events in case you're curious. With the number of family getting him the entire collection was not so difficult. And I even purhased the book that Kelly McCann wrote for him as well.

From what I gather he enjoyed the dvds which involved weapons training of course firearms in particular. Yet made some interesting remarks about the empty hand material. Would like to pitch it out there and learn if anyone else feels the same way about the subject. This is not something I feel qualified to make a determination.

Does the empty hand material in the dvds from Kelly McCann give you the impression of some American version of Krav Maga? The implication made was that Kelly McCann had just added some terms and 'recycled' Krav Maga. While I have seen Krav Maga a couple of times and watched a dvd of Kelly McCann teaching empty hand material it would not be fair on my part to comment without far more insight.

About the hapkido training videos. Have yet to see the Combat Hapkido material on dvd or live for that matter. Yet I watched a dvd from Alain Buress and was impressed enough to purchase that one and another. From the description given about the Combat Hapkido dvds about covering a wider selection of material yet not in dept I would recommend the dvds from Alain instead.

Maybe the dvds that Alain has produced are not as large in scope yet the material is covered extremly well. For a person with no background in Hapkido the dvds were still easy to follow. Although I'm not a regular buyer of dvds or books about martial arts those were taught in such a comprehensive manner that I could not pass them up. What Alain did there was actually teach not just demonstrate something.

If you get the chance to watch a dvd from Alain that's something I would highly recommend. There's a technique which I think he called a trap? worth seeing. My description was catching a punch thrown at full speed. Despite numerous efforts I can't pull that off. The demonstration of hand speed in several places was almost worth the purchase itself.

[JimH]

Kelly Mc Canns H2H are from the Fairbairn ,Sykes,Applegate training given to Commandos in WWII,thus it is termeed WWII combatives or FAS combatives.

Krav maga was not around during WWII,but some have said some aspects of WWII Combatives can be seen in portions of Krav Maga,Thanks in part possibly from Imi's contact with the British,if similar iy is in Krav Maga the Military version not Krav maga the civilian Version as found in most civilian based schools.

WWII Combatives was the H2H of the British Commandos through WWII to Present,called Jap slapping they also mixed it with Milling-boxing and wrestling.
WWII combatives was used by the US Army Rangers and Special Forces Forces,still is used by them though people would have you believe it is MMA/BJJ now,lol.
WWII Combatives was the H@H of the Marine Corps ,then portions were melded into the LINE and now they use MCMAP.

WWII Combatives were strikes delivered with intent and body through use of the stomp or drop step.
The strikes are all made to produce Injury and Death,they are not pain compliance,joint lock ,peace keeper techniques, (which is why the Marine Corps switched from them to MCMAP to train Marines for a cross variation of encounters)

I mentioned Kelly McCanns Combat series ,not for his weapons skill,but for his H2H skills as the need in a combat zone is not the need on the street and rules are very different ,so combat/Battlefield application would be more along the line of need as easily provided and learned in McCanns videos.

The Hapkido based Materials are all Great for Civilian use and Peace Keeper or Police needs,but the Battlefield does not require pain compliance methods,if you get my drift,when taught to troops the materials need to be slightly altered so the finish,the Kill or injury is there.

WWII combatives are quick ,swift strikes,not enlongated conflict as seen and taught in Krav maga.
WWII Combatives was to be easy to learn,easy to use and easy to maintain with little to NO upkeep.
WWII combatives is Gross motor skills over Fine Motor skills needed and used in Hapkido as seen in pain compliance and joint locks.

I hope I have clarified why I listed it ,McCanns combatives, for a Soldier going into combat.

Again though I like the materials as offered by GMP and the ICHF and the Essentials as offered by Alain as well as other Jujitsu based materials.

The Needs Dictate the materials as each set of materials has its place and audience.

[windtalker]

Kelly Mc Canns H2H are from the Fairbairn ,Sykes,Applegate training given to Commandos in WWII,thus it is termeed WWII combatives or FAS combatives.

That's kind of interesting because after the last post I went to see a cousin to borrow the book from Kelly McCann. What I read in the front was that McCann was a student of numerous martial arts over a number of years and practiced a great deal of Jeet Kune Do as well. Granted McCann did join the U.S.Army yet never mentioned the hand to hand there being any kind of influence. Although McCann claims to either train with or train military and law enforcement there's no mention of thier hand to hand being much in the way of an influence. Where's the background in WWII combatives?

Krav maga was not around during WWII,but some have said some aspects of WWII Combatives can be seen in portions of Krav Maga,Thanks in part possibly from Imi's contact with the British,if similar iy is in Krav Maga the Military version not Krav maga the civilian Version as found in most civilian based schools.

WWII Combatives was the H2H of the British Commandos through WWII to Present,called Jap slapping they also mixed it with Milling-boxing and wrestling.
WWII combatives was used by the US Army Rangers and Special Forces Forces,still is used by them though people would have you believe it is MMA/BJJ now,lol.
WWII Combatives was the H@H of the Marine Corps ,then portions were melded into the LINE and now they use MCMAP.

Sorry I have to throw a major B.S. flag on those statements. Because I have a cousin that's a real navy seal and we've discussed fighting on various occasions. Although not specific he told us that numerous martial art styles are taught at the base in California where Rob is stationed. From what I saw him demonstrate it looked very much like a Filipino or Indonesian style.

The U.S. Army base at Ft. Benning teaches Gracie Jujutsu. There was a special that I taped on TLC showing what they are doing. And Jester has the official hand to hand training book from the U.S army. It looks exactly like Gracie Jujutsu to me. From what I gather FT. Benning is where all those guys in Special Ops. take jump school. That's second or third hand information so I can't say that's necessarily true.

WWII Combatives were strikes delivered with intent and body through use of the stomp or drop step.
The strikes are all made to produce Injury and Death,they are not pain compliance,joint lock ,peace keeper techniques, (which is why the Marine Corps switched from them to MCMAP to train Marines for a cross variation of encounters)

I mentioned Kelly McCanns Combat series ,not for his weapons skill,but for his H2H skills as the need in a combat zone is not the need on the street and rules are very different ,so combat/Battlefield application would be more along the line of need as easily provided and learned in McCanns videos.

The Hapkido based Materials are all Great for Civilian use and Peace Keeper or Police needs,but the Battlefield does not require pain compliance methods,if you get my drift,when taught to troops the materials need to be slightly altered so the finish,the Kill or injury is there.

Although our Jeet Kune Do class does'nt mess with joint locks that much especially in recent times I know from experience those 'pain compliance' material can get nasty in a hurry. Breaking something is easy for FMA students to accomplish and they might have stuff that does far worse.

WWII combatives are quick ,swift strikes,not enlongated conflict as seen and taught in Krav maga.
WWII Combatives was to be easy to learn,easy to use and easy to maintain with little to NO upkeep.
WWII combatives is Gross motor skills over Fine Motor skills needed and used in Hapkido as seen in pain compliance and joint locks.

Honestly I have'nt the experience with any military stuff that other people in my family do. Yet from what I've seen it does'nt look very advanced to me and in fact resembles what my brother sometimes does in Taekwondo. Went to a Krav Maga school a couple of times and I was more impressed with thier material than anything else I've seen family do that was supposed to be hand to hand taught in the military. With the exception of the Gracie Jujutsu the Army does.

I hope I have clarified why I listed it ,McCanns combatives, for a Soldier going into combat.

Again though I like the materials as offered by GMP and the ICHF and the Essentials as offered by Alain as well as other Jujitsu based materials.

The Needs Dictate the materials as each set of materials has its place and audience.

Just in case I'm wrong about some of this I'll pass along your statements to family that would actually know. Yet I've heard about military hand to hand for years and have the impression you're over-reaching what they do.

[Taffyleigh]

another excellent instructional dvd you could get for your friend is the new Total Body Defence DVD - check out the website: WWW.TOTALBODYDEFENCE.COM

[JimH]

Windtalker,
I doubt I am over reaching what the WWII combatives program was designed for,what its goals are and what it was and is used for as I have been trained in Similar Materials in the Marine Corps from 1974
I have also experienced the same Teaching in SFQC,Special Forces Qualifications Course as a member of the Special Forces through the 1980's and having taught this method of combat to other units in the US and out.
(similar methods are now being taught and have been taught for decades at SFQC,I think now SFQC H2H using these methods has been expanded to near 40 hours, and these methods are and have been used with the army Rangers)

The Change to more pain compliance and Sport alternatives as seen in the Marine Corps and the Army today are for Peace Keeping missions and in the Army's case using BJJ to develop a Warrior spirit and mindset.

If the Person you want the video's for is going into combat,I would want the WWII combatives,if not going into combat and not doing Urban combat of kicking in doors and having the potential of meeting the enemy face to face where you have to down them or kill them quickly then go with something else,more Peace keeper like.

Just My opinions ,but it Yours and or the Families Money so buy what you like,I get nothing for my recommendations.

Again depending upon need and want people want to train in,these needs dictate what one should look to buy.
(I would not want to be in a combat Zone relying on BJJ ,or Joint locks and Pain compliance,sorry my opinion)

The Cestari Tapes are also excellent for the Battlefield needs but now they are very expensive through the ads in the Martial art mags put out by Damien Ross.
Tapes by Billy Burke and Glen Broody are also very good for the battlefield but may be seen as expensive.

McCann and his team have worked as Contractors and in Training the Iraqis and these are the H2H being taught by them.

That Total body defence looks good and usable.


Again my opinions

[windtalker]

Hey JimH,
Never did I suggest to be any kind of authority on matters of what the military does including thier forms of hand-to-hand combat. During several other posts here on MAP it has been mentioned that my family has a long tradition of military service that I chose not to be part of.

The prior statements were almost entirely based on the level of observation not personal experience training in nor teaching military based or RBSD types of material. From having seen a little Krav Maga the system appears both effective and realistic. From having seen the various types of military hand-to hand combat as demonstrated by various family that have been in the Army or Marines there my assesment would not be favorable.

Maybe the book written by Kelly McCann does not show any dept of the material he teaches. Since I have not watched the material taught on the dvds it would not be possible to say at the present time. From what I did see of Kelly McCann the RSBD taught was not impressive. The R.A.T. program which I am familiar with looked far more feasable. Granted I'm a big fan of Paul Vunak and there may be a little bias yet Paul Vunak does have the credintals of having also taught Special Ops. before.

There are numerous instructors these days claiming to have taught military forces. Once again I have no idea of how truthfull such claims are or not yet I know that both Paul Vunak and Kelly Worden have significant backgrounds in military training. The reference to Paul Vunak is from my study of his PFS material as it relates to Jeet Kune Do concepts, The Kelly Worden refrence comes from a limited study of his material based on his reputation with the knife training. Honestly I would select material from either before any of the material that I've seen limited as it was relating to anything else that has been marketed as military hand-to-hand.

The largest complaint I have against military based systems is the lack of dept in training. Too much of the 'if the opponent does this and you respond in such manner' stuff. And the material again from what I've seen does not cover much other than a few techniques which are just assumed to work and without a fall-back. Honestly I also have reservations about technique which can't be proven to work. Yes something like eye-gouges or throat attacks have the potential to cause serious damage even death. Yet the question reamains is a delivery system included that would give the opprotunity for using as much?

Hopefully you will consider my views as just that and no more. There's no pretense of knowing more about military hand-to-hand or matters in general related to military than yourself. For example I could not tell you what the various grades like E-5 or whatever mean. Nor could I relate to experience learning much less teaching military hand-to-hand. With that being said my statement about not being a qualified expert in these matters would again be given consideration.

Finally I'm not sure that 'joint locks' and 'pain-compliance' techniques lack the potential you suggest. Having been subjected to techniques very much like those in Hapkido or maybe Aikido? the possibilty of fractured bones even more substatial injury seems likely. There are numerous chokes and 'locks' found in sources like BJJ that I've also both used and have been on the other end as well. Those can produce significant damage. With little relative effort. And from my view based on the effectiveness of such from experience the Army made a good decision going with Gracie Jujutsu.

There was an article in an issue of Black Belt Magazine that featured the Combat Hapkido being taught in Iraq be none other than Combat Hapkido founder John Pelligrini? and the military souces interviewed spoke very highly of his material. Would that not suggest the kind of material that falls under 'joint-locks' might have military application?

Just an different point of view no more or less.

[JimH]

A lot of people train the Military,the majority volunteer to do so or are invited to teach their materials Few of these Instructors ever or rarely get signed onto contracts for long term training,many do it for free to say they trained the troops.

Training the Military does not prove the materials to be Combat/Battlefield usable.
examples are :
BJJ
Sambo
PFS by Vunak
SCARS by Petterson
None of the Above are worth any thing on the Battlefield.

Can one use Hapkido,Jujitsu based materials on the Battle field? Yes if one makes changes to the manner in which it is taught and or employed.
(WWII combatives is Mostly a Jujitsu based system)

If I kick in a door to a home and move through and a man appears with a knife or tool,I do not want to be screwing around trying to soften him up and then go to a Joint lock.
I want to palm heel him in the face get his head up and forearm/edge of hand strike him to the neck or maybe throat and get him out of my way.
(I doubt many have tried ,taught or trained to deal with performing Hapkido moves in a dark hallway with a helmet,vest,camel pack,Combat vest,rounds,and a rifle and or side arm on)

This is why I say need dictates training.

Since GM P's training of the Troops at Ft Drum and since his return from Afghanistan I have asked him if the Materials he taught were the same or different to what we learn for the street and he said they covered and ADJUSTED the materials to cover ALL needs of the troops from compliance for escort to joint breaks to killing if need be.
He and Master Gray did this as the needs for the troops were all across the board.

Again my recommendations are based on my opinions for need of the soldier and their job on the Battlefield.

They are just recommendations, people can decide as they like on what to buy some one for a gift for training.

I like Alain's materials,I like GMP's materials,I like lots of other materials:
Cestari,McCann,Aizik,Nardia,Hochheim,Hughes,Spor,H ubbard,to name some.

If people look at Kelly McCanns material and see Krav maga and see no need then so be it,I am not selling anything just having a dialogue with an opinion.

I am sure the soldier and his buddies will like and use what ever anyone decides to buy.

I wish all who put on a uniform and who go into harms way the Best and a safe return to them all.

[windtalker]

For the most part I think we are very much alike in terms of thinking practical and effective are order of the day. Although I'm not sure why you consider the Vunak material to not be effective on the battlefield. From everything I have read the military in this case U.S. Navy seemed to feel otherwise. The subject of Peterson and Scars is best left with somebody I know bought into the ads and was quite disapointed with the results. From what little I did watch of the dvd the Scars looked more like a very poor version of some CMA that was 'recycled'. Not that I have a bad opinion of CMA other when a bad job of using as much is displayed.

At the range you were describing I probably would use a strike first and follow up with a 'lock'. That whole 'softening' up routine is subjective. What I consider as much is probably not very different than something along the lines you mentioned. And when a 'lock' is executed it would not result in anything like pain-compliance. What confuses me about the subject is you seem to have a positive assesment toward the Japanese variety of Jujutsu while a negative view of the Brazilian type. Guess that you and I will not see that aspect in the same light.

There apparently eas a misunderstanding about the assesment that I have toward Krav Maga. If the system is taught as I have seen it done a couple of times I have no issue with thier methods. Until I see different from McCann the opinion for his work remains the same.

The basic model of what I consider effective and realistic is not something that would exactly be considered unique. Sound concepts and technique is the order of the day. Yet those must be part of an effective delivery system not independent. The only kind of training I personally would be comfortable depending upon would include 'aliveness' training not pre-determined attacks that have a chosen response. Which is exactly the opposite from what I've seen of military hand-to-hand. Again I say little for no training or teaching exists to back that up. What I saw was enough to disinterest me with the subject.

Two other questions I've always been curious about is how much can a person learn in a very limited period of time? Just 40 to 60 hours of training does'nt sound if that would cover very much. And I don't see a progressive learning experience. Just a few techniques used different ways. Although I have no adversion to the concept a lot more training in terms of basics and practice would be necessary before I would use anything in a serious conflict of any kind.

Anyway that's my views of the subject. Thanks for clarifying the use of Combat Hapkido in the overseas training. Nice to have a conversation with someone not the whole argument routine even when our views are very different. By the way when you watched the dvds from Alain how did you come by the impression the 'softening' and 'pain-compliance' lacked any kind of hard response? The material looked quite effective and could easily get nasty in a hurry.

Time for work. Hope to read what you think of post tomorrow. Last word I hope our troops are doing well over there and return home soon as well. Despite my disdain for politics and no particular intrest with military the men and women in the armed forces represent family and friends to many and I hope the best for them. Speaking negatively about the reasons behind our current endeavor overseas is not nor ever should be a slight against American troops.

[Alain]

There have been some great posts regarding this topic, and I'd just like to share a few comments.

Regarding Kelly McCann aka Jim Grover. His H2H stuff is based on the old WWII Combatives as mentioned already. I have only seen a little krav maga, so I can't comment too much on it, but Kelly's training and teaching is not krav maga but the WWII style combatives at taught by Fairbairn, etc. Regarding Kelly's instruction, it is top notch. His firearm resources are very very good for dvd or video instruction. I think live instruction with him would be extremely valuable, but dvds/videos are the next best thing. There was a reason CNN brought him in after the attacks of 9/11. He knows his stuff. I also like his direct no-nonsense type of teaching.

I also agree that there are many very good instructors out there, and I like to think I am one of them. :-) However, it really depends on what your training goals are. If you just want to be able to defend yourself, you don't necessarily need to learn locks. (and this is from a guy who really enjoys studying, training in, and teaching locks) That is why I don't teach locks in Streetfighting Essentials. (Which by the way was originally titled Self-Defense Essentials, but was changed by the publisher) The reason I say this is because locks take a lot more training to get to where you can actually use them, and even then if the opportunity to use them is not there, you won't be able to apply them. (albeit, if you are very good at them you can create the opportunities) If someone is coming at you with punches flying, I'd recomend keeping from getting hit and smashing back, not going for the locks. However, in other situations, locks are the perfect techniques.

I agree that in combat basic hurting and killing techniques are most likely the most practical. However in peace keeping and security situations, locks and such may be needed. So - It depends!

Then you have people that want more than just the basic SD stuff. I fall into this category. I train for SD and have defended myself. But I also train to be a martial artist and do forms and other training that while not the most practical for real fighting or self-defense situations I feel still has value for becoming a martial artist. (which includes bettering myself, learning health, about the body, simple and difficult techniques, forms, weapons, and so on...)

My friend Marc MacYoung wrote an article and in one of his books about four focuses of martial arts. I believe that is true. People train for different reasons, and the different arts focus on these different areas. An art that is good for sport is not always the best for real SD and so on. Personally, I don't care to compete any more. I train to be the best martial artist I can be with the goal of learning and mastering techniques that include forms, complicated techniques and so on. I also train to be able to defend myself if needed.

With all that said, it still comes back to "it depends." And more often than not, it is the person not the style that makes all the difference. I bet we could go out and find people from just about any style you can think of that can defend themselves very well. We could find people from those same styles that can't defend themselves.

When you really think about it, you can only hit, kick, throw, and lock people up so many ways. Sure, the various styles have their own philosophies, but there are still many similarities. So it is natural for many teachings to be similar. I mean how different can my palm heel smash be from Kelly's, Vunak's, Fairbairn's, Applegate's, krav maga's, karate's, kung fu's, and so on. Who doesn't teach some sort of palm heel strike?

Okay, since I've rambled on here a lot, I'd like to mention an instructor that I think does a very good job of teaching, since this thread was about good resources. Mark Hatmaker. He has a ton of dvds and books and I have seen a lot of them. He actually has a brand new one that I have not watched, but I expect to be very good. It is called The Complete Pugilist. I actually have a special deal with that set and his Compete Grappler set on my website right now. You can check it out under the Hatmaker Special link on the Products page at www.burrese.com

Kelly Wordon, someone who I also think is a good instructor, was mentioned. He just came out with a new dvd called Urban Knife Warfare: Edged Weapon Combat for Military Personnel and Defense-Minded Civilians. You can see more about this title at my site too.

Well, I've rambled on a lot tonight. I hope some of it is helpful.

I too wish the best for all of our men and women serving in the Armed Forces. Having been a soldier, I understand some of the hardships and sacrifices they give to enable us to live as we do. I want all serving to be safe and return home to their loved ones, and it saddens me to know that some will pay the ultimate price. I thank them all for serving!

Yours in Training,
Alain

www.burrese.com

[Thomas]

Since GM P's training of the Troops at Ft Drum and since his return from Afghanistan I have asked him if the Materials he taught were the same or different to what we learn for the street and he said they covered and ADJUSTED the materials to cover ALL needs of the troops from compliance for escort to joint breaks to killing if need be.
He and Master Gray did this as the needs for the troops were all across the board.

The combatives programs that they are teaching (as well as what CSM Redmore) does is fairly steamlined. There is a big focus on using low line kicks and hand strikes for immediate damage. There are also a lot of drills for building hand speed in dealing with strikes or grabs and some transitions for a fairly small set of good joint locks (mainly for restraint and escorting). The system is set up to provide responses for Hand-to-hand combat (without a weapon) or for more routine law enforcement/civilian control where hard-force shouldn't be used. At the same time, the techniques used are selected for being easy to learn, easy to practice, complementary to the whole system, and usable while wearing full gear or not.

[ELBOHEMIO]

Here is my list:

- Modern Farang Mu Sul http://www.dsystem.com
- Hwarang Do http://www.hwarangdo.com Check the Self Defense Series, Explosive Fighting Skills and off course the Xtreme Series.
- CQDT and huk Ju Sool Series http://www.cqdt.com
- IKCA Kenpo - Karateconnection.com
- Paul Vunak Marterials
- Sayoc sayoc.com
- Tony Blauer

[callsignfuzzy]

Since it's been brought up, I've just got Hatmaker's "Complete Pugilist" DVD set in the mail Thursday. I'm about halfway through it, and with the exception of kicks & kick defense, this is probably 90% or better of what you need to know for the striking game. Of course, I train with him every few months, so I'm probably biased. Mr. Burrese is right, though, the man's very good at conveying his ideas in a logical format. If the cost is an issue, his older title, "Extreme Boxing", covers the fundamentals pretty well, and is a bit cheaper.

I have Jim Grover's "Self-Offence" DVD. It's very basic, which is a plus, and as I think has been said, emphasizes having propper mindset. Maybe not my first choice for a SD DVD, but it's still very good.

And since their names have been brought up, I have to say that, having attended seminars with both Hock and GM Pelligrini, they both impressed me. The Combat Hapkido stuff took things that I had nearly dismissed and made 'em seem workable. The DVD's are actually on my (very, very long) wish list. Hock trained things in an "alive" manner, introduced some good principles, and spoke like someone who had experience with guys pulling knives & stuff on him. Don't know if he's got a set on weapons defense, but if he does I'd recomend those.

[Thomas]

As a side note, I have some of Mark Hatmaker's books and they are excellent references - clearly laid out, well explained, great photos, logical setup, and bets of all, pretty cheap. Well worth checking out.