Would Zhoozitsu stop a guy high on Crack?

[Rorny Gracie]

I think so. Say hes higher than a ****ing kite and he threatens to kill you. Would zhoozitsu be the best art in that situation or another on. Let the answers fly.

[Chop]

I have to agree.

[YODA]

Yup - reckon so.

Kick him- keeps coming.

Punch him - keeps coming.

Break a limb - keeps coming.

Take his back & choke him out - ZZZZzzzzzz.................

[LilBunnyRabbit]

Actually if you break the right limb he may want to keep coming, but he won't be walking.

Take his back & choke him out: realise that you are now on the back of someone who is high enough not to have any of the usual restraints that humans place on their muscles to avoid tearing themselves to pieces, and also cannot feel pain.

I wouldn't say jujitsu would be better than any other, knowing someone who's been in this situation.

[Thomas Vince]

Self defense should take these things into consideration. I do not have the luxury of considering whether he is high or not. I am attacked and I must react as a life or death situation and nothing else.

Being so parries, eye pokes, throat strikes, knee strikes, groin strikes or a table up your a$$ is what will happen. Get real guys, threre are no ropes to keep you in this one and you fight or you don't. And for you testerone overdoses I hope you find that walking away can be just as satisfying as putting them in the hospital and less of a hassle.

You don't have time to decide the mental ability of the attacker. Martial Arts was designed for complete war like action and that should never change be it in the ring or on the streets. Appraoch the situation exactly the same in order to survive. Kill or be killed. If you think anything else you risk your life.

[YODA]

Sorry - I was just posting my opinion based on my experience being the teacher of people who do this for real. Psychiatric nurses who have to and do take on criminally insane nutcases with the same mindset as described. They have hit people with batons, tables & pokes eyes, kicked groins and broken legs - the ONE thing that has proved a high percentage move in this scenario is a rear choke. It works, and it works well.

[Thomas Vince]

First of all in wards like these nurses are not allowed to strike the residents, secondly if they did with these prescribed references they would be sued and so would the hospital. PPCT has trained every law enforcement institution and also has a program for mental hospitals, maybe this should be looked into.
Nurses who this for real should be aware of the litigational consequences of their actions. Wehter he threatens to kill you or not you are the authority and the one being paid for the risk, those job descriptions come with a an assumed risk.

[Thomas Vince]

I don't understand how you can be involved in training these type of people in thier job when you are ring fighter? How does your experience apply to their jobs and that environment ?

[Nubius]

YODA has a very good point here and I have seen the rear choke take out crazy people who are on drugs while punch kicks would not.

[YODA]

Hi Thomas

I don't understand how you can be involved in training these type of people in thier job when you are ring fighter? How does your experience apply to their jobs and that environment ?


Ring fighter? What ever gave you that idea? Yes, some of my guys fight in rings - they are a minority - and that works mainly because what we do - i.e what works and can be trained against a fully resisting opponent - can and does resemble "ring sport" at times - but that's not what we are about - far from it.

I am a fully certified instructor under what is probably the largest & most respected self protection association in the UK. The Self Defence Federation - headed by David Turton, 7th Dan - who has spent the last 40 years or so in self protection related systems and has trainined many of the modern so-called "Experts" in the field here in the UK.

Initially I got involved for a course on weapon retention for their specialised security staff. They came to me because I was recommended to them. I have since done courses for them on various topics including safe & effective application of chokes, setting up a scenario based training area within their facility, the use of high impact training gear (FIST) and an edged weapons awareness seminar. I drew on my training in self protection and my 19 years of weapons based FMA for much of the material.

First of all in wards like these nurses are not allowed to strike the residents, secondly if they did with these prescribed references they would be sued and so would the hospital.

This is not a hospital Thomas - there are no "wards". The facility in question is a high security prison for the criminally insane. I cannot and will not name it but people here in the UK will probably know where I mean.

So - these are not people "just" with mental problems. These are the type of people who will kill given ANY opportunity. Saying that - the most dangerous ones are the quiet reclussive ones that just "go off" one day. Last time that happened a nurse got a pair of scissors through his chest, killing him.

Yes - they are taught an official program of control & restraint techniques and when there are 2 or 3 nurses to one inmate they do work most of the time - but often things happen fast in that environment - and inmates often deliberately manipulate the situation to their advantage. For example - the rules state that a nurse is never alone with an inmate - one time two nurses and a security officer where working with one "low risk" inmate when she faked a heart attack. One nurse went for help - that left two. She then stuck her thumb in the security officer's eye & tried to bite the face off the remaining nurse. He used elbow control to spin her around and apply a choke. She was maybe 300lbs at that time, he's maybe 175lbs. She flung him all over the cell but he held on and she went to sleep. The security officer who she went for 1st nearly lost her eye.

[mmafiter]

Originally posted by YODA
Yup - reckon so.

Kick him- keeps coming.

Punch him - keeps coming.

Break a limb - keeps coming.

Take his back & choke him out - ZZZZzzzzzz.................

You sir, are correct!:D I've been there. The guy wasn't even high on anything, just a tough ******* and other officers were hitting him with batons, fists, trying pressure points (PPCT), even pepper spray, but nothing was working. I took his back, set my hooks in and applied the choke and in a few seconds it was over.:D

I've also had students do similar things with the same results.

[Jim]

[First of all in wards like these nurses are not allowed to strike the residents, secondly if they did with these prescribed references they would be sued and so would the hospital.]

In our country (Australia) we have what is called an initial responce time of 3 seconds that is deemed to be a person's 'instant reaction' to something happening to them.

This covers the circumstances when some dirty old man grabs a nurse on the bum and she instantly elbows him in the face. There is no chance of litigation if this action (or reaction) takes place in that 3 second 'instant'.

It is only where there is proof of premeditation (Ie. the nurse says to another 'If old Mr. Jones pinches me on the bum I'll elbow him in the head) that litigation is possible.

Maybe the law is different in your country?

I too have taught rear strangulations (not chokes) to people in law enforcement, special forces military and phyciatric nursing and have found this to be one of the all round best ways of eliminating a 'problem' with minimum damage to yourself.

But that's just my opinion, and you know what they say about opinions...

[Thomas Vince]

I have the same philosophy that if someone is not feeling the effects of your strike you have to put them to sleep. We have a few choking techniques in Parker Kenpo one of which is called the sleeper.

Yoda as for being a ring fighter, my mistake I must have mixed you up with someone else while I was typing. That is what happens when you multi-task to much.

Yes the laws are different in the US, I guess I'm not in law enforcement. The nurse has a guard standing by if not two and for the most dangerous cases they are not released from the shakels. My younger brother works maximum security at a prison and there incidence levels is very low. As far as for the criminally insane don't know. I do know however that in New Jersey you cannot choke out a mental patient and Police Officers are not allowed to apply choke holds.

[pgm316]

Originally posted by Thomas Vince
You don't have time to decide the mental ability of the attacker. Martial Arts was designed for complete war like action and that should never change be it in the ring or on the streets. Appraoch the situation exactly the same in order to survive. Kill or be killed. If you think anything else you risk your life.

I wouldn't approach each situation exactly the same. Some I agree it is better to end the fight with a lock or hold if possible. Avoiding the seriousness of a striking confrontation which can lead to unknown trouble wherever you are or from the law. If you feel it is a kill or be killed situation then use any way to win, your own safety has to come before any trouble you might get into.

I wouldn't say one style is particularly better than another in this situation. All styles will have moves that if used correctly will be of some use.......... we hope.......

What are peoples thoughts on the best way to handle this situation???? Personally I wouldn't want to touch (ie grapple) with somebody that appears to be a hard drugs user for obvious health risks. Although thats possibly better than cutting them open with blows to the head[?] Maybe chop them down with a few good strikes to the body. Two good roundhouse kicks to the floating ribs worked for me in a similar situation!

[Freeform]

Personally I wouldn't want to touch (ie grapple) with somebody that appears to be a hard drugs user for obvious health risks.

I happen to know that many drug abusers are actually very clean animals, and are the victims of some very bad press. They are quite often Bankers, Accountants and other office types. Their natural habitat is the Wine bar where the perform bizzare mating rituals :)

Seriously, the choke or sleeper it has to be. If their so wack out of it normal damage, which manifests itself as pain, won't work. You have to remove their actual mechanical ability to function, I suppose if your Shihan Arneil (Kyukoshinki Master) or Master Sken (Muay Thai) you could snap their leg like a twig. I have drilled chokes/sleepers much more than thigh kicks so I'll go with what I'm best at if I've got the choice.

Besides it looks better with the police, over here I've got a sleeping junkie, over there I've got one with half his femur jutting out of his leg and blood all over the place, hmm.

Thanx

[Andy Murray]

Originally posted by Freeform
[b]
Besides it looks better with the police, over here I've got a sleeping junkie, over there I've got one with half his femur jutting out of his leg and blood all over the place, hmm.


He fell over Officer :D

Andy