Di Mak

[Luthen_inadon]

ne one here who knows Di Mak? (pardon if it's misspelled) my Master is learning it

[SoKKlab]

Di or Dai Mak, is the Welsh version of the chinese Dim Mak. Bloke down the pub with his Vitals tweaked. Sedochi!

Actually Dim is another Welsh reference, meaning 'nothing' or 'no' in the Welsh language.

Anyway sorry for burning your brain. The truth now.
Dim Mak (Cantonese chinese rendering) is a much hyped and alluded to way of parting you from your money.

Although it does have some basis in reality. It is the striking, pushing etc of 'Vital or 'Pressure' points on the body. 'Spotting'.

It has come back into vogue recently by the efforts of Erle Montague (Bagua/ Tai Chi Chuan teacher) and Dr Michael Kelly and by George Dillman with his Kyushu (Sp) Jitsu stuff The Okinawan equivilant which they managed to nab from the Chinese on the sly, when they weren't looking.

Dim Mak literally means Death Touch and sounds like a Charles Bronson movie from the 70s.

Does it work? Well all the Dillman demos are on co-operative partners and they fall over when touched or struck on a chain of pressure points. piff Paff POFF.

Can you do such against someone trying to take your head off?
Who Nose? Some say they can. I'll try to keep an open mange about that one.

[Shaolin Dragon]

It works on the same sort of principles as acupuncture/pressure; that parts of your body are linked by meridians along which chi energy flows, and certain points along these meridians can be manipulated to affect the body. OK it's a bit more in depth then that, but that's the rough idea.

[nzric]

Even if you don't get into the whole chi disruption idea, it's clear that many of the points work. The body has a lot of points where the nerves/tendons/arteries etc are just below the surface (e.g. on the neck and throat and behind the jaw or under the arm).

If you strike these points, you will need to hit them with much less force to do serious damage than a normal strike. Some points only require a fairly light tap to knock out or cause severe nausea in the opponent. Like I said, even if you don't believe in chi, it's obvious that if you strike someone's carotid, you'll severely disrupt the flow of blood to their brain...

While it's pretty overconfident to say you can "hit a point the size of a coin on someone who's trying to rip your head off" as many posts have been saying, it's important to realise that many strikes are on where the points 'cluster' (like on the neck). Also, dim mak points tend to be indentations in the body (like under your ear) so are easier to find, and many dim mak attacks are either strikes on five or six dim mak points (playing the odds) or use dim mak points to grab/press an opponent instead of striking.

[SoKKlab]

Originally posted by nzric
Also, dim mak points tend to be indentations in the body (like under your ear) so are easier to find, and many dim mak attacks are either strikes on five or six dim mak points (playing the odds) or use dim mak points to grab/press an opponent instead of striking.

Yes, I 'do' some of the points when i'm Chin Na-ing. Pressure area grabs, holds etc. And some basic 'strikes' to the easier access points.

I'm not so sure about the actual strikes, purely in terms of set-up and delivery under duress, other than the obvious Carotid/ Throat ones etc etc.

Some of them are a bit far-fetched, some less so in my opinion.

None of the Mastoids/ Under the ear stuff work at all on me (Quite thick neckwise), I feel a bit of 'uncomfort' but it's hardly going to ruin my Breakfast and make me wail for Murphy.

In fact everybody in my Ju Jitsu class gets to try to squeeze my vitals (not those, mercy!), just to see if it'll work on me. Quite nice from a social POV 'go on give his Mastoids a squeeze' etc.

Where the whole Dim Mak thing goes up it's own Hosepipe is when you start getting into all that 'hit a certain point at a certain time, place, latitude, longitude' etc stuff that's in texts like the Bubishi.

But as I say, some basis in Reality at least.

[Luthen_inadon]

yeah, like 15% of the people in the world are what is called "non-responders" people that pressure points don't work on (my SiFu included)

[hafer34]

Unless your George Dillman, I would'nt waist my time with pressure point fighting. On bigger opponents certain pressure points wont work and not many fighters are quick enough to evade a punch and shoot in with a pressure point. Not very effective, thats why not very many have studied pressure point fighting.

[Shaolin Dragon]

I think pressure points are mainly effective when used in grappling situations, however what works in training may not necassarily work in a real conflict.

[KenpoDavid]

train to hit'em, try to hit'em.. maybe i will maybe I won't but ya gotta aim somwhere, why not a convenient pressure point?

[David]

Exactement!

And like sokklab said, aim for thos points when you grab. You can hold on to one (or more) in one hand and hit at others at your leisure if you're positioned favourably.

Rgds,
David

[SoKKlab]

Without wanting to come off sounding like The Terminator, I have used some pressure point holds/ squeezes under duress.

I used to work the back door of a biker club/ Bar and whilst I'm not going to bore you all with stories of 'on the door' (Because I was on the backddor and thankfully not that much happened..), I did use them a few times in grappling type scenarios, like dig someone in the armpit (Ji Quan) when the opportunity arose etc.

So they can well work, but the point is why bother?
My answer is 'When the Opportunity Arises and presents itself and it is the best tool for the job', which oftentimes, they are not.

Do I think I could hit Pressure point targets in an exchange of blows, hmmm, probably not unless as David alluded to, I had established a certain amount of control/ grip etc.

Interesting though. Any Volunteers to take part in my survey?
Just stand there a minute-this won't hurt a bit...

[Tsing Tao]

true on many bigger people "pressure points " often dont work. and as my student posted 15% of the worlds population are non responders. But Dim Mak is not just hit here, aim there, grab there. And it just dosent require the striking and grappling of pressure points because of those who are Non-responders(including myself). and many times pressure points are sensless to use on those people, but Dim Mak also focusses on "reflex points" these are points on the body every one responds to.

[quartermaster]

i read somewhere that george dillman was responsible (not held responsible) for a few deaths, primarilly due to demonstrating the carotoid sinus' sensetivity. the problem was that the carotoid can take 20 years to break down after a fairly weak hit, and when it breaks down, you die

i dont know about the authenticity of this info, but good to be aware of nonetheless

[Freeform]

And the medical backing for this is?

What a pile of croc... IMHO.

[Matt_Bernius]

Ok, as far as I know there has never been a direct connection between the demos Dillman gives and anyone dying. However, Erle Montaigue published an article in 1989 questioning the safety of the demos that Dillman gave. Here's the article as it reproduced on Erle's website.

http://www.taijiworld.com/Articles/george.htm

While it's a little rambling at times if you scroll towards the end Erle has interviewed a number of medical experts (east and west) about how good an idea it is to make a direct blow to the carotoid artery. I do know that a number of martial artist I respect have publicly and privately stated that they would never let Dillman work on them for exactly the reasons that this article brings up.

- Matt

[Disciple]

FreeForm, The medical backing of this is over 3 thousand years of oriental medical history....

Also, I think it can work, givin someone having the ability to execute them correctly. I would say, it is almost unreasonable to know 50 and execute them correctly, but imagine you could master 1 or maybe 2 of them, seriously, if you could master 2 rather damaging pressure points, even if thye have temporary effects, it is more than enough to descemate anyhuman in 80% of the worlds population.... I think master a couple that work wouln't hurt anythign.

[stump]

<<<I think pressure points are mainly effective when used in grappling situations, however what works in training may not necassarily work in a real conflict.>>>

I strongly doubt you;ve ever trained real grappling if you believe this....pressure points work mainly on placebo effect in my opinion.....you believe its going to happen and guess what.....it does!!!!!


There was a really poor attempt at a study done to show their effectiveness I read a while back....I could have driven a truck between the reported results of the study and the conclusions reached.

Funny that all the PPKO points are around the jaw area and the base of the brain.....or could that be a coincidence???

Whether or not they exist or not is irrelevant....in practical terms they are not reliable enough. The Dim Mak is a myth

[LilBunnyRabbit]

FreeForm, The medical backing of this is over 3 thousand years of oriental medical history....

Yes, and we all know how well acupuncture works, and aromotherapy. And hey, what about bleeding with leeches? That's something backed by lots of medical history, and its not even oriental.


Interesting though. Any Volunteers to take part in my survey?

Yep, I'll take part.

And incidentally, SoKKlab, I owe you a pint. As soon as I've got the money I'll have it mailed to ya.

[quartermaster]

come to think of it, i tmay have been erle montaigue's article that i had read. my memory fails me though so who knows

[SoKKlab]

Yes, the Erle Montague article dissected a George Dillman seminar and aftermath in Australia (Late 1980s).

Essentially it was saying that Dillman's methods (kyushu-jitsu-sp?) at the time (they may well of improved greatly since then) were leaden and primitive in comparison to the Chinese Methods.

And that essentially it wasn't a good idea to whack people hard in the Carotid arteries for the sake of a demo etc etc.

[Maximicus]

Dim Mak is a reference to anyone who would try this stuff in a real fight, your preyyt DIM, Mac!:D

[YODA]

Originally posted by Maximicus
Dim Mak is a reference to anyone who would try this stuff in a real fight, your preyyt DIM, Mac!:D

*Applause :D

[Maximicus]

You like me!!! You really like me!!!:D

[Tsing Tao]

not to be rude but it looks to me like your closed mind has taken over your martial arts. you look at things and see how crappy it is whene you should be picking out the things that make you stronger. many things in Dim Mak may seem like nonsence in a "real fight", but a little non-sense could go farther than you mind lets you think. so Drunken Boxing is a total wast also. that is a lot of non-sense but is totaly effective.(in its own way)

[stump]

Lol yes drunken boxing is very effective in it’s own way….it’s an effective way to have your arse kicked while you look like a muppet :)


One of my instructor had a great saying…..keep an open mind…but not so open as your brains fall out

How many real fights have you seen Dim Mak used in?

[Luthen_inadon]

really? well I haven't seen that many fights but have had many pressure points used on me and they hurt like @#$% (use your imagination)

[stump]

Yes..they hurt....were you thrashing visiously before it was applied to you? Were you kicking the other guy in the stones when he was trying to apply them? Or did you stand as most people do...compliant until it was applied?

I've had lots of pressure points applied to me....they hurt.....so does getting kicked in the shin...neither would put me out of a fight. And unless you take to attacking unaware bystanders it's going to be of very little use to you in a fight because it's hard enough to hit a moving target square in the mush...

...so how do you expect to be able to hit Gall Bladder 5 or Stomach 20 with any amount of accuracy (remember that to work the pressure has to be applied in the correct direction, not just to the right spot).

So if pressure points work or not is dependant on you being able to apply them and seeing as they are nigh on impossible to apply in most confrontations they are of no real value, because you need to go so far out of your way to make them work you'd have been better off just hitting them in the jaw with a good cross than tying to fiddle with their arm.

The same principles apply for Dim Mak if there is such a thing. And in my opinion there aint

[Matt_Bernius]

Stump,

I think you are over generalizing all of this. The knowledge of pressure points for fighting supliments regular targeting techniques. It's a component of a large fighting strategy. I think only the most naieve (or perhaps the "great masters") should expect that they can just touch someone and have them fall over. But if you can encorporate knowledge of pressure points into your overall combat strategy then you can take advantage of their benefits when they present themselves. But you can't build an entire strategy around them. But if the opportunity for a good gunt to an arm presents itself, why not take it?

In this respect the use of Dim Mak is not unlike the concept of disarms in Kali. Attempting to disarm a live knife is a near impossible task in reality. Disarms come most often as byproducts of other moves. The same is true for locking and throwing in most Japanese arts. You get to them through atemi. One can't expect to start off with only throwing and locking in mind. There needs to be a greater strategy in place.

- Matt

ps. The same is true with Drunken Boxing. The movies/forms present this idea that someone would find in a 'persona' (be it drunken or an animal) for an entire fight. The fact is that Drunken (or any of the animals) would only be used at advantageous moments.

[stump]

Good post Matt...but people have built arts on should be a "what if" based purely on their sellability, not their usability - and both drunken boxing and pressure points are good examples - the second being a better one.

I still think pressure points have so little applicability as to be useless de facto. An effective fighter could remain so without any knowledge of that. Even at their best they are sod all use in my book...if people looked at them objectively most people would see them for what they are.....gimmicks

[Shade]

Forgive me for being naïve as i am very new to MA, but which arts are the ones that base their sellability on pressure points? I prctice CKD and as far as I know we dont get involved in that sort of thing, but want to know what to keep my eyes open for.

[Matt_Bernius]

Stump,

I can understand you point, but have to respectfully disagree (which is pretty much what you said to me as well). Even the most rudimentary fighters typically make use of obvious pressure points. But since that's built into us as part basic targeting we just take it for granted that a chop to the side of the neck or a blow to the jaw line is going to cause the average joe to briefly buckle (at the least).

As far as the Drunken Boxing, what can I say, I've seen it pressure tested and it worked. But like I said the person shifted into drunken mode for only about three moves and was out of it. I wouldn't say the same results would have happened if he had been weaving and swaying the entire time.

Thanks for the debate!

- Matt

[Maximicus]

Anywhere that hurts is a pressurepoint. The ting is, in Dim Mak, they teach you that to do the ninja killer touch of doom, you have to hit an exact spot, at an exact angle, with exact pressure, at an exact time of day (really look it up). Your best bet is to stick to the "general" pps, Groin, temple, nasum, etc.

[stump]

Shade: Kyoshu Jutsu - or any derivative of

[stump]

BTW - I find the face to be a really good pressure point......hit it hard enough you get a good pain reaction :)

[SoKKlab]

Tai Chi Chuan, Bagua, many other Chinese systems are very big on Pressure Points Shade.

Modern 'Military' systems such as the SCARS programme also use them alot.

One point, Pressure Points do not neccessarily refer to Dim Mak.

Chin Na uses alot of Pressure Points, but these are usually used to amplify a lock or hold with a Muscle Squeeze, insertion or some other dastardly doings.

Very nasty, but you need a 'Base' art to provide the range finding, targeting etc to be able to use anything Pressure point related and the question remains are they the best tool for the job, under the circumstances, mostly No, but occassionally Yes.

Worth knowing? Where's Kwan Jang when you need him to make a contribution? He's big on going beyond 'Gross Motor skills'.

[RubyMoon]

Originally posted by Matt_Bernius
I think only the most naieve (or perhaps the "great masters") should expect that they can just touch someone and have them fall over.I have witnessed this very thing.

I was priveledged to meet and personally study under Master Taika Seiyu Oyata in 1985. He performed a seminar on tuite jitsu and kyusho jitsu. The techniques I learned were impressive, but what really stuck with me was the man himself. He had a presence that was at once warm yet imposing, a disciplined mind tempered with quick wit and a kind heart.

Before the seminar, Master Oyata performed a demonstration for several local schools. He asked my Sifu to provide two large, male volunteers for this demonstration. After speaking for a time, Master Oyata called for the volunteers to stand on either side of him. Master Oyata simply reached out and tapped each volunteer somewhere along the neck, and each one crumpled unceremoniously to the ground, unconscious.

It was like watching Spock do the Vulcan "nerve pinch." But this was real.

As soon as his volunteers went down, Master Oyata knelt down next to each of them and gave them some kind of treatment, using pressure points to reverse whatever it was he did to them. They soon recovered, obviously shaken but relatively undamaged.

Later, and perhaps even more shocking, Master Oyata stopped--and then restarted--the heart of a volunteer. A doctor was standing by "just in case," and also to verify that the volunteer's heart did, in fact, stop. Incredible.

Later during the seminar, Master Oyata told me that the techniques he used in the demonstration were guarded closely and not taught to just anyone. He said he would not teach Americans because, "Americans too crazy, they'd go around knocking each other out." I laughed, but I knew he was right.

Master Taika Seiyu Oyata was almost 60 years old at the time of that demonstration. It was an experience I will never forget.

[Maximicus]

Americans too crazy? You just explained that he risked the life of at least 3 people. HE needs to think about his "just in case" a little better.

Oh, and did they try to dodge/counter him? No? I could do just about any thing if the guy i'm doing it to would ley me. Take dragon ball z, if this Goku guy starts sayin KA..... ME... I'll be damned if i let him get to ha.

Pressure points work, no one is arguing that, what is being argued is their usfulness in a situation, I wouldn't want to stop a guy's heart if he jumps me, just ruff him up a bit.

Edit: Don't make multiple posts, use the edit button

[LilBunnyRabbit]

Forgive me for being naïve as i am very new to MA, but which arts are the ones that base their sellability on pressure points? I prctice CKD and as far as I know we dont get involved in that sort of thing, but want to know what to keep my eyes open for.

Well, we do pressure points, of a sort. It depends on your definition of pressure points really. If its a point where you can strike in order to cause damage and pain, then we teach that the pressure point you should aim for is your opponents body. On the other hand if you want more specific pressure points you might want to ask your instructor, or cross-train in another art.

[nzric]

I don't see what the fuss is about. Dim mak is just about knowing the weakest parts of the human body.

Yeah, you can get all mystic about it and say you have to hit them here at a 45 degree angle, if they're a middle aged guy and you're at sea level in june, but everyone knows that's bull (i hope everyone does, I really hope everyone does...)

When you think of points, as in small dots on the human body, these are only useful to know for acupuncture or qigong purposes - you'd never try to use them in a real fight and since the energy in the body is moving wildly in a fight, they'd have limited effect if you did.

The bottom line is it'll hurt someone more if you hit them in the soft bits instead of the hard, bony bits. It makes sense if you're in a fight, to aim/grab onto where you know there are major arteries, joints, gaps between muscles, nerves, etc. Certain moves hurt a little more than repeated punches in the head (just ask Mike Tyson for a demonstration)

Thanks for the info RubyMoon - I'll keep away from Master Taika Seiyu, he seems like nutter

[RubyMoon]

Originally posted by nzric
Thanks for the info RubyMoon - I'll keep away from Master Taika Seiyu, he seems like nutter

No problem! :) If I painted Master Oyata in a way that makes him "seem like a nutter" then I have done him a terrible injustice. The demonstration was in a controlled environment with volunteers who knew exactly what they were getting themselves into. It may sound dangerous and crazy--and it would be for any of us--but to someone like Master Oyata, this was just a walk in the park. It was very kind and generous of him to provide such a unique opportunity to witness what a lifetime of hard training can accomplish.

[Matt_Bernius]

Thanks for demistifying this Nzric. That's wat I was trying to write and did a poor job at stating.

Rubymoon, that's an interesting case. Acutally, it occured to me after writing that I did have one case that I witnessed of a "light touch" putting someone out. My Kali Instructor, Guru Doug Marcaida, was demoing some Dumog and he put one of his stundets in a light headlock and was beginning to take him to the ground as part of a neck break. Suddenly (within a second or so of being put in the lock) the student passed out and "fell" through the technique. Luckly Guru Doug was well balanced and was able to stop the technique and bring this guy to the ground. The way the student went limp I think half the class thought that the teacher had accidenly broken his neck. Thankfully the student came to seconds after hitting the ground.

Any way, the student wasn't in the choke long enough to have gone out because of lack of blood. Guru Doug speculated that he might have rubbed a couple nerves in the neck correctly to accidently put the student out. Either way, while accidental, it seemed a lot like the vulcan neck pinch you described.

- Matt

[LilBunnyRabbit]

Any way, the student wasn't in the choke long enough to have gone out because of lack of blood. Guru Doug speculated that he might have rubbed a couple nerves in the neck correctly to accidently put the student out. Either way, while accidental, it seemed a lot like the vulcan neck pinch you described.

If you get it right it takes about two or three seconds to put someone out through lack of blood to the brain.

[stump]

I personally would say it takes a litle longer than that...but it depends very much on the person...and the diference is so little it barelt matters....choke them till you have to support their weight

[Matt_Bernius]

Yeah, I'm aware of how quickly a blood choke can set in. This one wasn't a blood choke. He was out almost as soon as the head lock was on. And the lock was not on tight. I stll don't have a full explanation for what happened.

[kempocos]

RUBY - I was priveledged to meet and personally study under Master Taika Seiyu Oyata in 1985.

I too met him around that time, OYATA was brought to the US by his students and is a true OKINAWAIN STYLIST. I went on to study under one of his senior students. DILLMAN also met him then and that is when he started HIS VERSION. To appraoch the use of these points in the manner DILLMAN shows will not work well as I see it for three reasons

1. He does not show the techniques fully

2. attacks / fights do not happen as they are presented in the seminars

3. To attack a single ppoint the size of a dime during a fight is not going to happen

These concepets are part of the BUBUSHI and SOKENS NOTES two sought after and very few KARATE documents from old masters. I still study the use of KYUSHO & TUITE and contarty to popular belief DILLMAN did nto invent these terms he just markets them very well.

here is a good articale by a person I train under some times. I would recommend his book to anyone , great info.

http://www.combatkyusho.com/articles/pinpoint.htm

Keep in mind when these fighting systems were created the only way they knew the body was by the LAWS OF TRADITIONAL CHINESE MEDICIENE so to study it will help apply the techiniques to achieve the results as they intended. Viewing the body in the same manner as the teaching of the style creators intended.

[David]

Dim Mak/Yuet theory is interesting.
Learning 2 points won't be nearly as interesting as learning 3 because 3 is where danger to the receiver increases dramatically. Did you know that striking 2 points in the incorrect order can nullify any harmful effect intended? As said before, dim mak is not the same as pressure points but it does overlap.

In many cases, dim mak does precisely require particular angles of attack to work. And there is a simple reason for it and that reason is also tied in with why it becomes relatively easy to use these atacks. As kempocos just stated, you have to learn the laws of, and practice, traditional Chinese medicine to get good.

Rather than gimmicks, I see them as deeply woven into the entire system I study.
Angles of attack? That's what we practice.
Finding them? We become experts in locating points. I'm not talking boxing with gloves here; this is striking, struggling, clawing, manipulating and lots of other 'ings'. Not knowing dim mak could result in your certain victory being snatched away from you and you wouldn't even know why.
Why just use gross motions when putting a lot of effort into finesse can yield startling results. Why not aspire to the highest methods? In fact, how can I be studying my art if I have no desire to use dim yuet (dim mak)? It would be pointless in every sense of the word.

How about dim mak resuscitation, mentioned by Heather above... Useful to know how to wake someone up, to calm them down or to excite them amongst other things. People get into very funny states. Then, you do often have a compliant receiver.

Rgds,
David

[Maximicus]

I'd REALLY like to see someone try to explain using pressure points or Dim Mak in a fight. "Well, your honor, I just grabed him in a way to stop blood flow to his brain." Judge:"So you deliberately applied a hold that could kill someone in seconds if improporly placed or held too long?" "Yes your honor, but there was only a 25% chance of him never regaining contionce." "Well, due to your extencive lethal training over use of force and attempt at murder, i sentence you to 5 yrs. in prison and a 5,000 dollar fine." "But sir, there were 3 guys and they jumped ME!" "You used more force than necesary. this case is over" *slams gavel*:rolleyes:

[kempocos]

In the way I train i it is KYUSHO/TUITE it is about how much pain can be produced. If I grab here it hurts, if I grab here twist alittle and bend a little it hurts alot more. or settiing up a strike combo to once again hurt more.

[kempocos]

Just to be clear, I believe the following

NO TOUCH KNOCKOUTS -- NO
KIAI KNOCKOUTS -- NO
TAP, TOUCH RUB = DEATH -- NO

[stump]

Kempocos....try doing that to someone who's sitting on your chest caving your face in with punches....because in all reality that's what you're going to have to risk to get to all these grabbing and twisting places

Again it goes back to the practicality of it all....and this stuff ain;t really practical

[kempocos]

It is the reason armbars , ankle locks work. B

[stump]

Really? I thought the reason armbars worked was because you were hyperextending the connective tissue of the elbow....

and the reason ankle locks worked was that you are again damaging the tendon in the heel...

Very little to do with pressure points and Dim Mak in my opinion

[Maximicus]

In a training environment what your doing is alot like Pro wrestling, you "sell" the other guy's moves. In training you never really try your hardest to prevent a move, if you did there would me no rules and people would get hurt. I wouldn't say it's imposible to KO someone by touching them, just impractical and risky. Unless you can slow time like the matrix, you should avoid using more advanced presure points. Even if you can pull off a pp, you can't calculate how hard you'll hit a moving target. If you hit too hard, you could kill him. Bye bye free world, hello prison.

[kempocos]

sorry, because some do not ubderstand why thier grappling techniques cause submission is nothing but lac of knowledge. I say you are right but getting on my chest is not a very easy thing to do. OKINAWAIN TE was all about grappling, wreastleing. TUITE means grab hand , submission holds. A narrow mind does not make it in correct. BJJ is full of grabbing and twisting of limbs , seems to work pretty well. Boxers the old one two the ribcage / floating rib is the LIVER /SPLEEN CROSSING and sets up hook punch to the jaw STOMACH 5, 6 that works all the time . It is mapping out the weak parts of the body that are weak the same way the OLD MASTERS did according to TRADITIONAL CHINESE MEDICENE.

[kempocos]

THE ONLY DIFFERANCE IS ,

WESTERN MEDICAL TERMS OR TRADITIONAL CHINESE MEDICAL TERMS.


Yoda: Typo corrected:- find the EDIT button!

[stump]

The old chestnut comes back -

Kempocos....watch the early UFCs...watch the guys who were "damned if anyone was taking them to the floor"

And then watch them tap out :)

[stump]

So why can you still get the knockout if you don;t exactly hit Stomach 5?

How about all the rabbit shots to the head on the early UFCs where the guy was being thumped in the back of the head but failed to see Blue Lightning?

Are you saying that boxers will only get the knock outs if they hit the presure point spots accurately?

When a Thai boxer has you in a clinch and is delivering knees to your stomack...which pressure points is he hitting?

[kempocos]

READ ALL MY POSTS , I state trying to be pinpoint is not going to work, just not possable. but to target an are that is worth hitting is useful. Once again it is about terminology WESTERN MEDICINE vs TRADITIONAL CHINESE. the locations on the body does not change. If you try to read the body as the creator of your TMA did it helps to view it as he did. Plant a shot to the side of the jaw you will lightup stomach 4, 5, 6, some Large intestune points. I am more into targeting clusters or the correct pstion of the arm bar to mmake the elbow burn with pain as apposed to hurt.

Read the articale in the link I provided, writtten by a soldier who proved his style in combat not sport.

[kempocos]

thai boxer is often slamming what TCM refers to as TRIPLE YIN CROSSING - LIVER AND SLPEEN or the FLOATING RIB AREA this knocks the wind out and breaks things as well as causes trauma to the organs behind them.

[kempocos]

stump , question for you - this last K1 do you think remy borjesky randomly throw knees or did he target his shots.

UFC I have watch almost 45 of them and it is more about balance of weapons than anything else. striking, grappling , ground, and condition - not gassing out.

[stump]

Are you saying he said...."i know..I'll hit Appendix 17....that'll put him down for sure...."??? :)

Ever see any pressure point knock outs in the UFC?

[Thomas]

I really don't know anything about Dim Mak aside from some articles by George Dillman, who by the way, in his latest one did say that his studies are progressing but he doubts the efficiency of the techniques in a real combat situation. But it is his choice of studies and he seems to be learning a lot.

I study Hapkido, which does get into pressure points. For me, I don't se it as anything mystical or whatever. Our main goal is EFFECTIVE TARGETS... which is something I think most martial arts teach. If I have to strike you, I won't just kick you in the gut. I will aim for sensitive areas, like the solar plexus, the kidney, and so on.

To react against grabs and punches, I will block/grab/strike nerve junctions and/or joints. Why? They are more sensitive, meaning more pain, and they are weaker, meaning more apt to succeed.

I would never rely 100% on a pressure point or sensitive area, mainly because you can miss and/or the opponent may not be affected by them. But, in my philosophy I want to know as much about the body so that when I do need to strike, my strike will be the most efficent. Anything I can add to my arsenal, providing I have tried it out and believe it will work, is valuable in my book.

[stump]

Kempocos:

You're saying that the vulnerable areas of the body are vulnerable because there are pressure points there.

i'm saying the effects of pressure point pain are due to pressure points being in vulnerable areas of the body.

There are hundreds of pressure points in the body...correct? Why are the only ones any good at causing pain located in places where the body is vulnerable???

[kempocos]

Ever see any pressure point knock outs in the UFC? are you saying that only things in the UFC are valid techinques.

No I ma saying he knew that hitting him in the head would more likely knock him out after the shot to the ribs than another shot to the ribs would.
my main point is that wether you call the spot a few inchs under the nipple the floating rib ( western term ) or triple yin ( TCM term) it is still a good spot to hit. When the TCM term says that the triple burn points around the ear are good targets , I would not try to poke them but an open palm slap to them would be a good spot to hit.

[kempocos]

You're saying that the vulnerable areas of the body are vulnerable because there are pressure points there.

i'm saying the effects of pressure point pain are due to pressure points being in vulnerable areas of the body.

There are hundreds of pressure points in the body...correct? Why are the only ones any good at causing pain located in places where the body is vulnerable???


YES TO ALL , ACCUPUNTRE use all the points , Proper use of KYUSHO/TUITE is learning which are good to cause damage/pain.
Much confusion comes when folks try to use both wesytern and TCM ternms to explain things togetehr hey bdo not make sense however explain in one or the other things are clear.

[kempocos]

sorry about sloppy typing , at work need to get this in fast

[stump]

lol...no sweat.....been there....done that!!!

PS - roll on the debate :)

[kempocos]

some good reads on a how to apply some TCM concepts to fighting. I am also a fan of BODY ALARM REACTION.

http://www.combatkyusho.com/cka_articles.htm

I feel we agree on more things than it seems. But I love a good livlely discussion. So let me know what you think of the articies.

[Maximicus]

A presure point is a place on the body, when contacted, delivers a reaction. Every nerve is a pressure point. The most useful pressure points are the large, easy to hit ones. The eyes, side of jaw, between the eyes, between the nose and upper lip, bridge of nose, temple, solar plexus, below nipple, above nipple, above naval, below naval, groin, back of elbow, above elbow, inside armpit, etc. Nothing the size of a half a dime is too useful, unless the area around it hurts too. If I try to hit your nasum (between eyes) and miss, I still clock you in the nose.:D The points should be simple and easy to apply or they are next to useless.:D

[kempocos]

MAX oyu are targeting some PP clusters, each contains many from more than one of the 12 main meridians. Once you apply more of the TCM you will learn which would be the best follow up shot and why.some will make others more sensitive, wiether it is the TCM concepts or that they are connected due to the WESTERN view of the nervous system will always be up for debate depending on the way you view such things.

I had a Sensei who would say "I may not know acupuncture, but I know pain and damn this hurts, and add this and it hurts more. Pain clears the fog of bad technique."

[SoKKlab]

Blimey!,
This one has just exploded hasn't it?

And guess what? After all this talk about Pressure Points and Dim Mak, one of the items that came thru this week for review on my Website (From Paladin Press):

The Encyclopedia of Dim Mak by Erle Montaigue and Wally Simpson!!!

Talk about Prescient! LOL.

[Maximicus]

Ooooooh, I love Paladin Press. And yes, follow ups can hurt more if done after certain moves, my point was that if the bigger the target area, the better.:D But the bigger, the less sensitive, so target an area that balances size/better chance of hit and amount/length of pain. The targets I said are effective since you can reach them easily, they cause tremendouse pain, and if you miss you still land a solid hit. Just like punching, with pressure points not all people fall down from the same stuff, so try to generalize and move quick.:D

[kempocos]

MAX , I agree , that is why I say the folks that talk about , tap rub, press specific points are not learning to fight effectively. If you want a point do not tap it slam a forearm into you will get the point and several more while you are at it.

[Matt_Bernius]

Originally posted by SoKKlab
And guess what? After all this talk about Pressure Points and Dim Mak, one of the items that came thru this week for review on my Website (From Paladin Press):

The Encyclopedia of Dim Mak by Erle Montaigue and Wally Simpson!!!
Acutally, along those lines it just occured to me that my school (and I'll try to do this without actually seeming like I'm advertising) is going to be hosting three connected Ba Gua seminars by one of Erle's students here in the state. As part of that he'll be teaching three of Erle's Dim Mak Katas so I'll be able to talk more accurately about things soon (provided that you consider Erle's teaching accurate).

- Matt

[SoKKlab]

Am Mincing my way through the Erle Montague Dim Mak Encyclopedia (Paladin Press), which regardless of yr opinion of the efficiency of the subject matter, is a very good book.

It's very interesting, very detailed, not only in application, but in angles, combinations, strike placements, antidotes to strikes, maximum damage you can expect etc.

Whether Erle Montague can pull this stuff off with the stated results under intense duress, I don't know, but the book is fascinating.

Although it'll take me quite a while before I will have read it and reviewed the thing for my website. There's just so much in it.

Most interesting, in a Doctor evil sort of way. Bwahahahaha.

[GaryR]

Hello,
Just found the forum here and saw a thread I could help provide some insight on.

Dim-mak can be usefull in a real fighting situation if trained properly. Generally speaking one must know how to fight before dim-mak is taught, and is sort of the iceing on the cake. Any time- specific points should not be used. I also prefer to teach point strikes that also have western explainations for the damage aside from the Eastern TCM (traditional chinese medicine) views.
If anyone has any questions they can post them here, or email me privately. Or if anyone is in the OKlahoma city area and would like to meet and train or drink some beers let me know! My website is www.pressurepointfighting.com it provides more info relating to dim-mak, (some charts, articles....) and more info on myself and what I teach and practice.

Good to be here, I hope to have some productive discussions.

regards,

Gary Romel

[David]

Welcome Gary and thanks for joining the righteous side ;) in this discussion hehe.

Will check out your site presently :)

Sokklab, the book sounds cool. I'm a sucker for books... Has Erle moved to the UK yet? I heard he intended to be in Wales by November...

Not adding much to the debate but how much can you do after 6 pages of it?

Rgds,
David

[SoKKlab]

Yes David
The book is most interesting, an incredible amount of information in it.

Like I say, I don't know whether that information is accurate or 'Real', but even just as a work in itself, it's excellent.

I'll carry on wading through it. I also received Shaolin Chin Na (Ming) plus loads of other stuff that has been cropping up in conversations on these forums.

Talk about of the Moment...

[David]

I just got my YJ-M chin na book back after lending it out for a while. It is a very good book of general interest. Anyway, this thread ain't book club!

Rgds,
David

[SoKKlab]

I looked at Pressure Point Fighting, Gary's site and there's some stuff of interest.

I'll refer back to it again when I have more time to waste, er I mean, use, at work.

The main issues in this thread are:

Define, what is the Difference between Pressure Points and Dim Mak?

Define What is a Pressure Point?

Do Pressure Points Exist? What Physical Evidence is there to Prove this?

Do pressure points work? (Reference here to use in training and not serious self-protection, that's later).

Can Pressure Points work in a Grappling or Striking Scenario?

Do Pressure Points work better in a Grappling-Orientated Scenario or a Striking Orientated Scenario? Is the answer based upon personal preference or experience? Define Experience.

If pressure points Work. Are Pressure Points the best solution regarding Applicability within a Given situation? (Define Situation and Conditions).

Can these techniques work under Intense Duress against a Serious Threat? (Define Serious Threat).

Add Ons:

Is Dim Mak a Marketing Myth or is it real?

One for Stump. Why haven't we seen any Pressure Point Knockouts in the UFC? Is it because there are only certain people who can really make this work under Combat Conditions or because these Masters refuse to partake in 'Sport'?

[kempocos]

Most of what you ask is discussed through out this thread, however I would say most knockouts are in fact PP knockouts that is why when hit the guy drops. That being said TRAD. CHINESE MEDICINE which is the source for PP and associated concepts is the way the creators of ALL TMA's viewed the body it was thier medical science. To use WESTERN MEDICAL TERMS to prove will not make sense just as translating words from one language to another is never exact. PP use TCM let the stylist know where the body is weak to say PUNCH HIM IN THE TRIPLE YIN CROSSING is the same as saying HIT HIM IN THE FLOATING RIB. I posted a site WWW.COMBATKYUSHO.COM read the articels and much of what you ask will be anwsered.
You review books the person who owns the site has put out a great book. I train with him now and then and he his what he claims and he has proven to me his direction on this stuff is very effective. I have been researching thius stuff since I met Taika OYATA in the mid 1980's.

[Maximicus]

If it hurts under pressure, it's a pressure point. 'Nuff said.

[SoKKlab]

Originally posted by kempocos
Most of what you ask is discussed through out this thread,

I wasn't asking for the sake of asking. I have added stuff throughout the life of this thread.

That's why I made the effort to bring it all together. And No, I don't see it as my personal property, but...

No-one has answered Stumps question about pressure point usage and knockouts in the UFC.

And a few of the other issues are still not being addressed. We can talk theory about Pressure Points and Dim Mak all we want, but do they work under duress? Particularly the Dim mak knockouts or worse...

Has anybody who you know and trust, used these techniques under serious duress and managed to make them work? Particularly the Strikes to Pressure point set-ups (Chains).

I mentioned much earlier in this thread that I had used a pressure point technique (No not Dim Mak!), that worked, in a very real situation. Because it was the best Window of opportunity at the time.

Has anybody else?

[Andy Murray]

Time for real world comments as opposed to theories I think.

Once bumped a particular spot on my rib cage against a steel bolt while doing menial tasks in a factory. Knocked me out for two minutes and left me feeling sick all day.

Also got my forearm tapped by a Mercenary, whos was working the door in my home town between jobs, paralysing my arm.

Do pressure points exist? Yes

Can they kill? I believe it's possible.

Are they so easily accessible as to be a high percentile/worthwhile pursuit for self defence? I don't think so.

Are they worth knowing, nonetheless? Yes, I believe they are!

[stump]

Nicely laid out Sokklab....sorry I've not been contributing much here for a while (some may call that a blessing!!!)....damn work keeps interfering with my posting.

There is definite proof tht a blow to the check can and has killed...but so rarely because I assume it relies on a large number of factors interacting....so for anyone to use these as proof of dim mak is nonsense.....why are there not Kyokushinkai karateka dropping like flies at every knockdown tournament around the world??? Their main focus is full contact punches to the chest...so this area should be ripe for such dim mak opportunities!!

I agree with Andy's post to a large extent....my way of loking at it is - Pressure points (or whatever) return on investment (the possibility of them being useful in a confrontation against the time required to train them to an level where they are usable and useful) is not worth the initial outlay to me.

[Andy Murray]

Originally posted by stump

I agree with Andy's post to a large extent....Pressure points return on investment (the possibility of them being useful in a confrontation against the time required to train them to an level where they are usable and useful) is not worth the initial outlay to me.

Yet one more thing to look into on a rainy day.

Here's the missing line;



Absorb what is useful

File away what is unproven, for testing later

Discard what is useless.

[kempocos]

I stated this earlier " Boxers the old one two the ribcage / floating rib is the LIVER /SPLEEN CROSSING and sets up hook punch to the jaw STOMACH 5, 6 that works all the time "

This is a very common example I use that is very often seen. The reason it works can be explained. The fact that it was not a planned preassure point attack is not the issue. I find that the way many people attempt to expalin it will not work is they are going for the single point as opposed to going for the point through a larger area of trauma. If you research these concepts you will find reasons many techniques are used and work well. True in the heat of a fight under duress to tap and single point at the right angle is not going to happen the fact is the need for the angle is not as important as some will like to sell you in seminars. I also maintain the reason many of the submission techniques work can be mapped out using TCM and the fact taht some people do not bother with the why doesw not invalidate the fact the information is correct.

I do not believe in,

NO TOUCH KNOCKOUTS
KIAI KNOCKOUTS
USEING SINGLE POINT COMBO'S IN COMBAT.

Did see the UFC fight were Tim Silva won the night Coture spanked Ortiz. I sat there with one of my buddies and mapped the final cpombo he used to get the KO. when he planted the knee to the ribs and slammed the elbow across the jaw it was exactly what I explained top of this except the elbow hit more tahn st5, 6

[Maximicus]

Well, I guess that answers the UFC pressure point mystery.

[kempocos]

"Well, I guess that answers the UFC pressure point mystery"

Sometimes to ask can any be explained by the concepts will answer the question. People often use the UFC as the end all proof of techniques. I feel that two things should be considered,

1. these guys are not you average attacker, or even average fighters. They are trained in a manner even most of the new crop of trendy MMA's who do it as a hobby and do not to compete are.

2. They are focused on one task and a set of rules and as in any training they can be taken out of thier game by moving outside of those rules. Take alot of them and put them in a ring with a pure MT guy and do not allow any take downs alot of them would be less effective.

I tend to seek out guys who have seen Military action and have used thier skills in war, while gaurding US concerns suchs as Oil pipelines. When the attack is not known as in a UFC they know the attack is coming and often how the person is going to start.

CAUTION , STRAYING OFF TOPIC INTO A UFC AS THE ONLY PROOF THREAD.

[Maximicus]

Geez, thanks for making me your scapegoat. :mad: Yes, UFC is a sport, not an actual fight. The point is, whenever you target a specific point, your using pressure points!;)

[kempocos]

preassure points , vital points are weak spots or good targets. The Ckinese did a great job of maaping out these points and came up with a way to take ful advantage of them. In the western medicene side we have other information that science has provided, xrays are great for seeing how joints are constructed or were bones thin out.

MAX I hope I did not make you a scapegoat that was not my intention. I only ment as in any research to look at all sides. To ask why did that combo A work better than combo B. As well as how do you put together a combo using PP concepts. I also stress use all westerm or all TCM terms do not mix them , combo A can be explained in both but a combo of the two will not make sense.

[Maximicus]

The joys or repetition.:rolleyes: I prefer single or maybe double hits, not leingthy preprogramed combos.

[kempocos]

I do to , that is why I like to know how to cause much damage with less shots

[GaryR]

Sokklab has laid out some good questions for discussion..ill address them each seperately in brief.

The main issues in this thread are:

1.Define, what is the Difference between Pressure Points and Dim Mak?

Dim-mak points=accupuncure points=accupressure points=Pressure points, its a choice of rhetoric. Dim-mak comes from the term dian xue, or "cavity press". The "death touch" term seems to have evovled only through the movies .

2.Define What is a Pressure Point?

Again, many "scholors" have debated about what exactly constitiuts a pressure point. However they all basically agree that any specific point on the body that produces a higher physical response then the rest is a pressure point. An accupoint can be used for healing, or for hurting.



3.Do Pressure Points Exist? What Physical Evidence is there to Prove this?

Yes they definately exist. But the context of their existance is still a matter of great scientific debate. There is no doubt that striking to certain points of the body can cause extreme damge. Take the pressure point "stomach 9" as dictated by chinese terms. It lies on the carotid sinus, and the vegas nerve. Both of which are well known to be able to produce a KO for western physiological reasons.

4.Do pressure points work? (Reference here to use in training and not serious self-protection, that's later).

I have gotten them to work, both in training and real combat. Did I need them to end the fight? No, but it quickened my survival. I have also taught others that have attested they work. But I must stress again, its like any other martial arts tool, you shouldnt rely upon it.

5.Can Pressure Points work in a Grappling or Striking Scenario?

Of course, a friend of mine is a really good grappler, he was also a 3 time national powerlifting champion. He was showing me some grappling one day, and pointed out the pressure points he used (since he knew I could tell him more) in his grappling. He also noted how effective they were to get the opponent distracted, or in a compromising position in a pinch (if you are just grappling for fun)


6.Do Pressure Points work better in a Grappling-Orientated Scenario or a Striking Orientated Scenario? Is the answer based upon personal preference or experience? Define Experience.

From experience in trying them both ways I would have to say in a striking senario, but striking is my main foucs, so my opionin is still subjective. Many of these points need sufficient force to produce a reaction. Some people can ingore pain if your simply gouging into one of them. Plus if you are good enough at striking it shouldnt resort to grappling, after all, thats the last place you want to go in a street enounter.

7. If pressure points Work. Are Pressure Points the best solution regarding Applicability within a Given situation? (Define Situation and Conditions).

Lets assume for the sake of this question it is well within my ability to KO you in a single pressure point shot if you throw a punch at me from any direction, and I can do this instantly. Would that be my best option? It could be, but I can also break your arm, your jaw, your nose, throw you to the ground....etc... I have all these options at my disposal, it depends on how I react. I may do all of the above if your standing long enough. I may hold you up so I can beat you more. My point is why pick one technique and rely on that? I can utilize pressure points in my joint locking, throwing, grappling, and striking. It just needs to be trained in correctly so it is done by feel and reaction.

8. Can these techniques work under Intense Duress against a Serious Threat? (Define Serious Threat).

Do any of your techniques work under duress? Pressure points can be lower percentage techniques especially if not trained properly, but if you miss it shouldnt affect the outcome of the fight.

Add Ons:

9. Is Dim Mak a Marketing Myth or is it real?

It depends on your perceptions of dim-mak, pressurepoints are real, and some people can produce amazing results with them. Do you believe "speedman" can make you hit as fast as lightning, or the SCARS system will make you undeafeatable? All of the above is an example of marketing hype. In this case there is some truth and usefull stuff behind the myth.

10. One for Stump. Why haven't we seen any Pressure Point Knockouts in the UFC? Is it because there are only certain people who can really make this work under Combat Conditions or because these Masters refuse to partake in 'Sport'?

I would say a combination of the above with a few more reasons and less cynisism. A good point strike cannot really be done with a closed fist, you need a smaller striking area to maximize your pressure per square inch. I also havent seen anyone in the UFC that even had the credentials that could even warrent the possibility that they may be possess some usefull dim-mak knowledge. They are great althetes, and its a great sport, but there are rules, and last time I checked it specifically outlined no pressure points as a rule. I know you will probably retort with the early UFC and the "no biting or eye gouging rule", but see the above reasons......

Hope my responses were helpfull, once again any questions you want to ask on this subject I can answer or find someone that can.

best regards.

Gary

[Matt_Bernius]

Little more fuel for the Dim Mak fire:

My Sifu reminded me of a different application, if you will, for Dim Mak in a fight. We recently discovered that Dim Mak (or something similiar) is built into our system (and for that matter most traditional systems). But it's application isn't necessarily the knock out strike.

Rather we use it to weaken specific parts of the body. For example a lot of our bridging work subtly employs energy manipulations/strikes. The intended outcome is that an arm looses a bit of energy as part of the exchange. The result (this is for a protracted fight) is that the arm starts to drop. This is not necessarily a "shaw brothers" shut down of one side of the body, but a half inch to an inch drop (sometimes more). The application of this (again in a protracted fight) is that this will change the nature of a persons guard leaving them opening up attack lines.

Feel free to argue the real world application of this. I can't quote numbers/percentages of fights that an exchange|breakaway|exchange pattern. But it's something to think about.

- Matt

[kempocos]

sounds like KYUSHO/TUITE from an Okinwain side, If done with a combat intent. There are many techniques that soften up the attacker for further damage. Much of the Knockout effect was brought to the seminar circuit by folks looking to mystify for money. Many of the knockout hits work when the person is standing there waiting to be hit. add BODY ALARM REATION, MOVMENT, BEING ATTACKED/RESPONDING and the pinpoint /angle /tap/rub they CLAIM is required is NOT going to happen. It sounds like you are being shown very good applictaion for the concepts discussed, making openings , changing the attackers balance, intent, body postion and the added pain they feel is always a plus.

[Colin Rackliff]

Originally posted by RubyMoon
I have witnessed this very thing.

I was priveledged to meet and personally study under Master Taika Seiyu Oyata in 1985. He performed a seminar on tuite jitsu and kyusho jitsu. The techniques I learned were impressive, but what really stuck with me was the man himself. He had a presence that was at once warm yet imposing, a disciplined mind tempered with quick wit and a kind heart.

Before the seminar, Master Oyata performed a demonstration for several local schools. He asked my Sifu to provide two large, male volunteers for this demonstration. After speaking for a time, Master Oyata called for the volunteers to stand on either side of him. Master Oyata simply reached out and tapped each volunteer somewhere along the neck, and each one crumpled unceremoniously to the ground, unconscious.

It was like watching Spock do the Vulcan "nerve pinch." But this was real.

As soon as his volunteers went down, Master Oyata knelt down next to each of them and gave them some kind of treatment, using pressure points to reverse whatever it was he did to them. They soon recovered, obviously shaken but relatively undamaged.

Later, and perhaps even more shocking, Master Oyata stopped--and then restarted--the heart of a volunteer. A doctor was standing by "just in case," and also to verify that the volunteer's heart did, in fact, stop. Incredible.

Later during the seminar, Master Oyata told me that the techniques he used in the demonstration were guarded closely and not taught to just anyone. He said he would not teach Americans because, "Americans too crazy, they'd go around knocking each other out." I laughed, but I knew he was right.

Master Taika Seiyu Oyata was almost 60 years old at the time of that demonstration. It was an experience I will never forget.

[Colin Rackliff]

I have also seen pressure point strikes used with devastating effect at seminars (George Dillman, Leon Jay, Pat McCarthy) but in my humble opinion i dont think any one of these could use these techniques unless their opponant was tied 2 a tree.
Thats not 2 say that i believe that pps don't work, they do, its just that i believe there are only a few real masters that can make them work in a real situation. (certainly not me though)
Kata contains these strikes in the correct application order, but obviously they are hidden within the kata so as to stop any fool from applying them willy nilly & causing real harm.
Basicly study correctly & your eyes will be opened !

[Louie]

Hi Colin

I agree with you 100%
With my former Kung Fu Sifu I trained with George Dillman, Leon Jay, Rick Moneymaker & Pat McCarthy... I noticed that Mr Dillman picked out certain people at seminars who dropped like a brick when 'touched' usually they had lots of badges, bowed very revelently and seemed a little nervous (NATURALLY). Like a proper hypnotist Mr D would say "I will hit you here (taps arm) and here (taps neck) he then repeats it again a few times so the eager crowd can see the points... Slap, Bang the guy goes down... the power of suggestion methinks,
wouldn't it be easier to do a home study hypnotism course and touch them on the forehead so that they collapse in a heap?

Russell Stutely (now of DSI (UK) Rick Moneymaker fame) was also there but as a member of the audience, at that time he was the same grade as myself just below Black. We got to know him very well, I remember I video'd my instructor knocking him around the hall, blindfolded....
A few years later, thanks to his affiliation with DSI and the interest in PP & Tuite, he is a master, he has black belts coming out of his ears, he's in the US Black Belt hall of Fame and features on the cover of several UK MA magazines....


Louie:confused:

[Andy Murray]

You mean you wish you'd 'sold out' Louie? :p

[Louie]

I wanna be on the cover of a glossy mag kickin' Russell's ass !!!!

No truthfully, I've always wanted to be champion of the underdog....

......or was that Champion the Wonderdog!

Louie :rolleyes:

[Andy Murray]

Champion was the Wonder Horse.

I think the sentient dog was called Rex! ;)

Correction, it was Rebel!

[kempocos]

"Later during the seminar, Master Oyata told me that the techniques he used in the demonstration were guarded closely and not taught to just anyone. He said he would not teach Americans because, "Americans too crazy, they'd go around knocking each other out." I laughed, but I knew he was right. "

Tiaka Oyata was right , he showed DILLMAN and he has been KO people ever since

[GaryR]

RE: "but in my humble opinion i dont think any one of these could use these techniques unless their opponant was tied 2 a tree."

From what you say you have seen of pressure point application (Dillman/Moneymaker), I dont blame you for your assumption. However the last time I used the points in a real encounter I didnt have the luxury of roping my opponents to a tree before hand! So your entitled to your opinion, but it is by my experience... inaccurate.

Like any other technique in the MA pressure points must be done out of reaction, and be dynamic and flowing. Its like knowing X amount of ways to block a punch or throw a person, when the time comes you dont think about which of the dozen(s) of techniques you want to use, you dont have time, you simply react with whatever you can. Its the same for pressure points. Training it properly can only make your strikes more efficient and potent, if trying to get to a point degrades your fighting ability you are not training correctly, dont have a decent teacher for that aspect of fighting, or are simply not ready for them yet....


Gary

[kempocos]

Dillman and Moneymaker have to very differant views on how to apply these concepts in combat. I train under Moneymakers guidence. I have never seen him promote instant knockouts, no touch knockouts like Dillman focuses on. There is alot of discussion about BODY ALARM REACTION and how this effects the application of KYUSHO/TUITE in a fight.

[GaryR]

Kempocos,

I do respect Moneymaker for not promoting the no-touch KO B.S. like dillman does, however their methods of application (nevermind theory) when it comes down to it still look similiar, it is very "karate" like, in that it lacks fluidity to put it nicely.

But if I was forced to pick a style in that genre- Moneymaker would of course be a good choice. He seems to be a pretty honest and straightforward man, I spoke with him on the phone a few years ago after he sent me a complimentary tape for review. It has been a few years since ive looked at his tape, perhaps even a Grandmaster has changed a few things? I do remember that his pressure point knowledge was excellent though.

regards,
Gary

[kempocos]

I think that you will find that things have come along why in regrads to flow. There is a new book out, it is about the info in the BUBISHI , Earle Montique wrote part of the foward. and a DVD on on what we call the palyers to the game.Things like stance , breath, intent, flow In fact rick has started a forum on this subject you may enjoy the discussons and your input would be a great addition to the knowledge.
WWW.DRAGONSOCIETY.COM

[GaryR]

Sounds good kempocos! Ill take a look at the forum and see where and if I can contribute and get discussions going. Ill also see if there are any recent clips so that I can publicly alter my "flow" comments if they are no longer as valid. If I cant find any clips do you have one you could post or send me privately?

thanks!

Gary

PS: Just looked for a clip on the new dvd, the link at the bottom of the product page doesnt work :(

[Montrose]

Professor Lance from Montague article: "potentially dangerous and potentially lethal. This is a commando type of technique. The commandos are taught this chop across the neck with the aim of killing someone."

Exactly and where did they get it? Interesting fact martial arts books pre 1940 have these types of techniques in them such as "Police Jiu-Jitsu" by Louis Shamer, 1937. There are several other books of this type with "Commando" type techniques pre WW2 and then nothing else actually showing them in martial arts magazines, books and articles until Okinawan Master Seiyu Oyata began demonstrating the techniques in the US including to George Dillman who popularized the method. Believe me I have looked. So the advent of pressure points has come out only recently. Perhaps other masters and styles knew them but they were not teaching them openly before Oyata. I have been in MA since 1980 and no one thought pressur epoints even existed before these guys started dropping people at seminars.

It is true that strikes to the carotid sinus will cause a quick knockout and it should be done with force like a knife edge strike to the neck or in Kung Fu a chicken wing wrist strike to the carotid sinus works perfectly (it doesnt even have to be set up on the arm the arm strike is to open the gateway to the neck though it does add to the effect. The neck strike is a baro-receptor response e.g causes the blood pressure to drop quickly and causes loss of consciousness.

My first Dillman seminar in 1989 I basically thought it was going to be bull**** but I found out different, it works.

My second seminar a few months later I was knocked out by a double move (which can be unleashed in an eye blink from a relaxed stance from 2 different angles it is a move form Nai-hanchi kata that looks like an "up and down block" -which such a block is meaningless -but as a strike to the carotid sinus on one side going up and down on the opposite side of the head criss-crosses hemi-spheres of the brain causing a sudden and devastating knockout. I saw a white light and thats all I remember. The knockout was performed by one of his then Senior Students Rick Clark not George. In fact I went to the ground twice from this blow and was revived.

It definately works and I learned it the hard way perhaps but I feel I could knockout out anyone who stood up close to me in an eye blink with this move, and because the hands come at you from two different angles it is virtually impossible to anticipate. This is a move right out of a karate kata that is about 300 years old and can be practiced easily thru doing the form if one visualizes where you are striking.

It seems some people doubt whether the techniques can actually be performed in combat. Answer: Yes they can. Some of the pressure points only cause minor adjustments for angle and direction to places one already wants to hit.

Example: SI-18 (small instestine 18 on a acupuncture chart) it is under the cheek bone and should be hit with upward energy. Karate-ka try to use a one knuckle strike to hit this point (which I dont like, its un-natural) and prefer the wing chun vertical fist hitting with the bottom 2 knuckles. This point hits right into the facial nerve (seventh cranial nerve) [note: cranial nerves pass thru the body to the brain without first going thru the spine and cause instant shock to the brain- these are the best points to hit] and the infra-orbital nerve.

You can test the point by sticking a thumb under your cheekbone and pushing hard upward at a 45% angle or better yet make a fist and hit into the point with your pinky knuckle as a test. When hit hard (not pushed) it produces an instant knockout. With the explosive force of the 1-3 inch punch it would be truly devastating. It can be practiced by striking a makiwara or even a heavy bag or focus mitt. Or if you are a Karate practioner some kata like Nai-hanchi have this strike in them if you understand the meaning and the target you are aiming for.

Instead of just "punch to the face" you can train to hit right into this point and it works well for a wing chun/jkd punch if you like a vertical fist and it needs to be done at closing/ trapping/clinching range.

There are a number of good pressure points like this.

My biggest complaint on the pressure point people is they dont (or at least most) dont do any kind of "alive" training. I love the pressure point work but I "absorb what is useful" out of it and cross train.

Do I still do kata? I do like 2 kata's. People who say I know 20-30 bla bla kata's dont impress me because they probably dont know 3 real interpretations to these moves. In fact 1 authentic kata (read old pre 1900 or much older) is all anyone would ever need if they understood the applications. I like kata for visualizing certain pressure point strikes and practicing the mechanics of it. I like "alive" training for combat simulation. I like JKD because it's fast and suits my temperment.

Monte Cox
Sandan Chinese Kenpo
Nidan Nihon Ryu Ju-jitsu
Shodan Okinawan Ryu Kyu Kempo
JKD Concepts practioner (though I hate labels)

[RubyMoon]

Nice post, Montrose. Thank you for sharing, and welcome to MAP.

[Noodle]

Kempocos,

Isn't Moneymaker an ex Dillman student? If so, how come you go on about Dillman so much in a negative way? Why even mention Dillman?

just curious,
Noodle

[kempocos]

Yes and EX is the main reason I train under him. Rick did much of the research for DILLMAN yet they do not agree on how to apply it. Rick will not SELL you instant ko self defenses, No touch knock outs, kiai knock outs, try to claim that he created Kyusho , Tuite.
Rick will tell you that Pressure Points should be 5 no more than 10 % of your training. That in the heat of combat either a fight or being attacked the tippy tap, rub touch is not going to work. Yes if the person is standing there aware of what will happen and what to do they get KO'd. I commend anyone who does not stay with ideas they do not agree with. i will offer my self to anyone who wants to prove NT

[kempocos]

Part two .... I will offer myself to anyone who would like to prove No Touch Knockouts or Kiai knockouts. I have had folks try it on me but I was told that since I train I must have defenses up or it would work. Rick and the DRAGON SOCIETY teach combat applications with a realistic appraoch. I mention DiLLMAN OUT OF MY OPINION of what I know of his direction.

[Mike Flanagan]

I too would like to volunteer to be the victim of a no-touch knockout. Or a kiai knockout, whichever. I await unconciousness with baited breath. Perhaps someone could do a distal knockout? Like they do distal healing in Reiki? Maybe, for no apparent reason, I'll collapse in a heap on my home from work tonight.

Mike

[Noodle]

kempocos,

thanks for the info. i am always interested in history and never really understood moneymaker's and dillman's relationship.

thanks,
noodle

[VicenteNegrete]

Try this pages, they are in spanish, if you dont speak it, the graphics give you a good idea.

http://www.tai-jitsu.20m.com/Kyusho01.htm

http://www.geocities.com/fudoshinkan_vzla/puntos_vitales.htm