Long Range vs. Close Range

[CKava]

Ive had the opportunity lately to do some sparring/practice with some Tae Kwon Do people and being a practitioner of Wing Chun myself I found it a very eye opening experience...

For a start I have to admit I was completely unexperienced and hence unprepared with how to deal with good kickers and I immediately noticed an extreme amount of jittering from myself (the reaction you have when someone jumps out and says boo). I was even a bit used to being jittered, especially when I started Wing Chun, but still an unexpected kick causes a bigger cringing reaction than I was expecting. This has subsequently started to fade now Im getting a bit more comfortable but its still something I think thats important to appreciate when facing good kickers.

Things that Ive found that have worked well are:

1. Advancing, though its quite hard to get your body to accept that it wants to go towards a person thats about to lash out a kick.

2. Using my knee to guard (very frequent) and likewise I would add that Ive found the traditional Wing Chun stance and guard to be a very well guarded position- more so than I expected.

3. Using a low kick as a step as well as a kick.

So thats my experience thus far but I was wondering how other people felt styles which tend to place an emphasis on close range (i.e. mainly hand) fighting compete against more long range kicking styles like TKD. And if anyone has any other advice/suggestions/experiences relating to the best ways of dealing with kicking styles?

[CKava]

And just before this issue gets a chance to rear its ugly head I'll just point out now. Im NOT referring to which of these styles is more practical/effective in the legendary street scenarios of a crowded bar, a dark alley, a deserted church rooftop :) etc. I AM instead talking about comparing them in a more neutral enviroment/atmosphere say in a training hall or for a 'street' example a wide, flat car park.

[pesilat]

All the systems I train in like the close range - but they also have material in the middle and long range, some of which is designed specifically to bridge the gap to the close range.

The trickiest thing to learn is that sometimes the safest place is at the eye of the storm.

The simple fact of the matter is that if your weapons are close range and you're fighting someone who's using long range weapons, then your only chance is to get in close. You have to get to where your weapons are effective. If you try stay out of reach of his weapons then you're just biding your time - he'll eventually tag you and you still won't be in range for your weapons.

So, you've only got two choices. Get to the range of your weapons and do your work or get completely gone (i.e.: run away and don't go back - not really applicable to a sparring setting but perfectly valid in self defense).

If you have to fight (i.e.: in a sparring situation or in a self defense situation where there is no exit available), then you must get to a range where your weapons are effective.

There are several ways to accomplish this:

Just bust in. If you take a shot on the way, oh well.

Attack the attacking tool. This can be overly mean in friendly sparring. But it's very effective. And if you've got good control, you can just tap the attacks, say "hello", and close in.

Use a different line to enter. If they're kicking high, drop low and enter. If they're kicking low, move high and enter. If they're kicking to your right side, move to the left and enter. If they're kicking to your left side, move to the right and enter. Or move out just enough to let the attack go by, then follow it back in to enter.

Of course, all of these will include a variety of parries, covers, and strikes to minimize your risk in the maneuver.

Once you're in, stay in. Don't let up. Keep inside, keep attacking until you're done (by whatever definition in the context you're using).

Footwork and timing form the foundation that make all of this possible. You've got to be mobile and ready to stop and go in any direction necessary in a split second to take advantage of the openings in space and time (sounds kinda like sci-fi, huh?).

Mike

[Tosh]

Originally posted by pesilat

The trickiest thing to learn is that sometimes the safest place is at the eye of the storm.


From a TKD perpesctive I agree 100%.

I'm not that tall 5' 7" (on a good day) and since most people doing TKD rtend to be in the big tall and ugly category, I have to take advantage of this.

It's all a case of fighting to your strenght instead of weaknesses. One of the group oppurtunities is just after the kicking leg has attacked. You then get a window of oppurtunity to advance into the neutral ground between feet and hands but within knee elbow range....

... hey at least you aint getting kicked ;)

[SoKKlab]

From a Muay Thai/ Ling Lom/ thai arts perspective (and something that Pesilat Mike alluded to),
'Break the Elephants Tusks'.

Ie every time they kick you, hurt them by attacking the Leg and or other bits that cause nasty 'oww' type reactions, as Mike said, a bit mean in a friendly sparring situation.

Learn some basic Thai Kicking and Kick Catching/ Destroying (ooo-eerrr, Grrr) (The stop with the knee being one you've discovered yrself) and you'll see it's pretty easy to deal with most kicks and break them up, throw, uproot and project anyone daring to launch a pifling kick at you again.

LOL, this sounds like one of those 'Fear No Man' posts....Grrrrr!

[Matt_Bernius]

Ditto what everyone else has said.

From an analytical perspective you need to understand where different longer range techniques run out of juice. We refer to that area in my system as the "zero pressure range." Essentially you need to get comfortable with the idea of either crashing a technique before it generates power or as it's moving into the zero pressure range (where the gas has run out).

A lot of that is understanding the basic ways that a technique can move (typically straight line, angular and circular). Once you have that you can then apply the general rule that:

straight motion beats circular motion
circular motion beats angular motion
angular motion beats a straight motion

Plus as your making those movements you need to be occupying the focus of your opponent. So you need to understand which of your techniques to use at which range and to travese the ranges.

As far as how you accomplish all of that within the bounds of your system, that's for you to decided. And keep in mind that most of this requires compound, dynamic footword (ie. going one line and then immediately going another).

Hope this helps,

- Matt

[Matt_Bernius]

Oh, one other idea, placing your hand with just a bit of force on the knee will negate just about any snapping round house (this will NOT work for Thai roundhouses thought). It's a great little technique, especially when combinedwith a punch and move in/off line all executed at once. It'll throw off a lot of kickers.

- Matt

[SoKKlab]

Originally posted by rockOn_Matt
Oh, one other idea, placing your hand with just a bit of force on the knee will negate just about any snapping round house (this will NOT work for Thai roundhouses thought)..
- Matt

No we (Thai stylers) drop our elbow(s) onto the knee, just to make sure (and other such nasties)....

[Matt_Bernius]

Personally, I perfer to be in another state, in an armored suit, inside a tank, if someone throwing a correctly set up and loaded Thai round against me.

- Matt

[shonuff]

CLose Range works best.

TKD fighter usually have weak punches. Get them in close. Tie them up. If you know any grappling employ it. Check their kicks. COmbo their faces and heads. Many keep their hands down. Boxing is good against TKD. Protect your head. Catch their kicks if you can and sweep them.

I have yet to see a TKD fighter who is good against any type of kickboxing. Be it Muay Thai, American Kickboxing, Savate, etc. Take them on as they would.

[CKava]

After reading the posts above, I was reminded of something that Ive been curious about for quite some time, its a bit of a specific Wing Chun question but Im sure it applies to many other arts. As people may or may not know most of the kicks in Wing Chun are straight low kicks aimed directly at the knee or groin now what I was wondering is if the intention of a kick is to break the knee how exactly can you practice it with anywhere near full contact?

I mean when Im training even when Im practicing with full contact I still dont ever directly stamp down on or towards someones knee yet it would seem to be a very effective and quick way of ending a fight or at least give you the chance to run away. SO how is this type of attack generally dealt with by other arts? And in this context Im not referring to just a sparring situation. And is this kind of attack legal in tournaments, in Muay Thai for example?

[shonuff]

You can't. The same way you can't fully practice neck breaks or joint breaks in grappling. The same way you can't fully practice foreknuckle strikes to the throat. Some things you just can't practice at full contact.

[SoKKlab]

Any straight kicks to the front of the leg in Muay Thai are dealt with by simply blocking by raising the leg that is being attacked.

Or, if you are feeling particularly whizz-bang, then you can turn and drop the shin/ knee on the incoming kick (Relevant in all Thai Arts used with much aplomb in Ling Lom).

As you've discovered sparring with yr TKD pal. Block with the shin or knee in a leg straight off the floor motion.

Or by simple and very slight Body movement, taking you a tiny bit out of range. Making them miss and countering.

Or by Interception, you kick low, he kicks high. You kick the front of his leg, he kicks you in the head with his shin, that sort of thing.

The thing is in the Ring Rules Muay Thai (I'm not absolutely up to date with the current full Muay Thai rules), whilst your trying to kick straight at the leg, which is bent anyway, due to the bent legs stance and continuous movement of the opposing fighter therefore considerbly nullifying the potential to do damage to the kneecap itself, you risk getting your head taken off by a weapon of mass destruction or an elbow knee etc, whichever hurts more etc.

Every kick in Muay Thai is for some kind of purpose, I know that may sound obvious, but sometimes people just throw kicks just because they feel compelled to.

The kicks are either probing, sounding out, a fake to set-up something else or very definite, you don't get much chance for something in-between as hesistancy and not capitalising upon an advantage can often lead to pain discomfort and misery in no short order.

On a Personal note, I find that kicks to the kneecap etc work best in a clinching scenario, where you are at the initial contact of a stand up grappling scenario.

When there is a nice target in front of you and there is less Adversary Lateral movement to worry about. I've used push kicks and short chopping style kicks with the heels and flat of the foot many times in this scenario.

Seems to work nice and as people are quite keen on their kneecaps, they tend to do the backward bum out shuffle pretty sharpish.

[pesilat]

Originally posted by CKava
After reading the posts above, I was reminded of something that Ive been curious about for quite some time, its a bit of a specific Wing Chun question but Im sure it applies to many other arts. As people may or may not know most of the kicks in Wing Chun are straight low kicks aimed directly at the knee or groin now what I was wondering is if the intention of a kick is to break the knee how exactly can you practice it with anywhere near full contact?

I mean when Im training even when Im practicing with full contact I still dont ever directly stamp down on or towards someones knee yet it would seem to be a very effective and quick way of ending a fight or at least give you the chance to run away. SO how is this type of attack generally dealt with by other arts? And in this context Im not referring to just a sparring situation. And is this kind of attack legal in tournaments, in Muay Thai for example?

You can't practice it as such on a person. However, you can practice the accuracy of placement on a person - even during sparring. You can practice the full contact delivery of the strike on inanimate objects - preferably something that won't break you in return. These two separate training methods aren't the ideal, of course, but by training them separately and always being aware of the accuracy and power issues regardless of which you're training, you can come as close as possible to approximated training of the tool at full power. Accuracy and timing are the pivotal factors, though. If you can reliably place it on target during live sparring, then you can probably place it on target in a fight. And in a fight, you'll automatically be using a lot more power just because you'll be driven by adrenaline and fear. If any of the proper power technique comes out, that's icing on the cake. The flip side of the coin is that if you hit hard enough, it doesn't matter if you're precisely on target - it'll still hurt them. So you can really take either route and get a beneficial end result. Personally, I prefer to work on accuracy and timing because, generally, raw power diminishes with age - though effective power may increase because you have better placement and are able to relax more and hit with more focused intent, but that brings us to an entirely different discussion :)

Mike

[Terry Matthes]

Fighting in close starts from afar ;)