So many other styles in Taijitsu

[Sonshu]

Throws - Judo
Breakfalls - Judo/jujitsu
Locking - Jujitsu
Striking - Jujitsu
Footwork - Aikido ish!
Katana - Kenjitsu/Kendo
Groundwork - Jujitsu/Judo
Kicking - Karate

It seems to have many points of other japanese arts in it and makes this art at a reasonable level - you can look reasonable in other arts of Japanese origin.

I found by my Taijitsu training I am ok in Judo, Jujitsu, Aikido, Kendo, Karate really most Japanese arts!

This is a blessing having such a multi faceted training art in one style!

[Geordie Boy]

But is it a case of Jack of all trades master of none?
Or is it a very good system?

[Sonshu]

AND A BONUS

It the number of weapons covered, as the more time spent on less practical weapons the less time spend on very practical hand 2 hand.

Still it is important to cover the basic weapons, han-bo, jo staff, Knives improvised weapons, clubs etc.

It is a system that does cover all these styles and because of the scope of it they cover them well. Not a master of any but an expert in all I would say.

[Geordie Boy]

Good, im hoping to begin training in it very shortly. Looking forward to it

[Sonshu]

But the majority of it is very good and offers solid self defence. They key to finding this out is often common sence and pressure testing.

Let me know how it goes.

[heretic888]

Throws - Judo
Breakfalls - Judo/jujitsu
Locking - Jujitsu
Striking - Jujitsu
Footwork - Aikido ish!
Katana - Kenjitsu/Kendo
Groundwork - Jujitsu/Judo
Kicking - Karate

*shudders* Set aside the blatant mispelling of the arts, none of those arts (with the possible exception of jujutsu and kenjutsu) are contained within Ninpo training today.

I found by my Taijitsu training I am ok in Judo, Jujitsu, Aikido, Kendo, Karate really most Japanese arts!

*chuckles* That's funny --- considering every one of those arts use very different principles and methods from what is taught in Ninpo. :rolleyes:

But is it a case of Jack of all trades master of none?
Or is it a very good system?

Depends on the individual, really.

I'd say, however, that the system doesn't follow the "budo is pie" formula you are proposing there. Namely, if budo is "pie", then if you take a slice for kenjutsu, then that's a smaller slice for bojutsu and so on. Meaning, you have to "partition" what areas you will be skilled in.

It actually doesn't work like that. What you are learning in Ninpo is to refine your taijutsu. Period. The weapons training suplements this. Good taijutsu forms the basis for all other aspects of Ninpo, from the weapons to the more "esoteric" studies.

[Sonshu]

*shudders* Set aside the blatant mispelling of the arts,

What style have is not spelt right???, and its not really that big a point if I have.

(with the possible exception of jujutsu and kenjutsu) are contained within Ninpo training today.

NO Possible exception - Jujitsu is where most of the japanese arts take there root from. Kenjitsu also. Judo is from Jujitsu so I am not sure where you are coming from here cos Aikido came from this root and still has many moves from it that are the same. It also uses many of the key movements and techniques that come from taijitsu and in turn Jujitsu before that.

*chuckles* That's funny --- considering every one of those arts use very different principles and methods from what is taught in Ninpo.

Your being a bit odd here as a hip throw is a hip throw, a wrist lock is a wrist lock, how you get there is not much different and in these arts they are the same. I have done Aikido/Jujistu and other japanese arts and to me they are all encompased in one form or another inside taijitsu - some more than others but you must be doing somthing different to what I did as my Ogoshi is the same in Judo/Jujitsu/Sombo and any other art that has this move in it.

People make too much of a difference to somthing that is pretty much the same. Many arts overlap a huge amount and this becomes more apparent the more cross training you do.

[heretic888]

What style have is not spelt right??

Jujutsu and Kenjutsu.

and its not really that big a point if I have.

It is if you want sincere practitioners of the arts in question to take you seriously.

NO Possible exception - Jujitsu is where most of the japanese arts take there root from. Kenjitsu also.

*chuckles* Jujutsu and kenjutsu (correct spellings) do not refer to specific traditions. They are generic terms for unarmed combat and sword skills, and are used in *many* old koryu.

In any event, none of the Ninpo traditions draw upon a prior jujutsu or kenjutsu ryuha as a basis for their teachings.

Judo is from Jujitsu so I am not sure where you are coming from here cos Aikido came from this root and still has many moves from it that are the same.

Neither Judo nor Aikido come from Ninpo, and vice versa. That was what you claimed before, and it is a false assertion.

It also uses many of the key movements and techniques that come from taijitsu and in turn Jujitsu before that.

"Taijutsu" does not come from "jujutsu". In fact, "taijutsu" is a much older concept used to apply to the unarmed combat methods of various ryuha.

Of course, both are generic concepts shared by numerous ryuha, so its pretty much impossible to say one came from another without citing specific ryuha or traditions.

Your being a bit odd here as a hip throw is a hip throw, a wrist lock is a wrist lock, how you get there is not much different and in these arts they are the same.

ROFLMAO!!! :D :D :D

Oh lord, that's funny.

I have done Aikido/Jujistu and other japanese arts and to me they are all encompased in one form or another inside taijitsu - some more than others but you must be doing somthing different to what I did as my Ogoshi is the same in Judo/Jujitsu/Sombo and any other art that has this move in it.

*rolls eyes* Oh lord.

Just because Ninpo shares a few concepts or techniques in common with some of these other arts does not mean those arts are "encompassed" within Ninpo. Any experienced practitioner of ANY of these arts would laugh at you for making such a claim.

In my experience, Ninpo has a *very* different way of doing things compared to other forms of budo, Aikido included. Just because the kata of one of the ryuha has mechanical similarities with the kata in another art doesn't mean they are at all related or subsumed within one another. Because, after all, its the taijutsu thats important --- not the forms.

People make too much of a difference to somthing that is pretty much the same. Many arts overlap a huge amount and this becomes more apparent the more cross training you do.

Trust me. Cross-training while studying Ninpo is a *bad* idea. :rolleyes:

*chuckles* Laterz.

[Freeform]

Tai jitsu thread (http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=376&highlight=jitsu)

Sonshu, I'm sure you'll approve. Although I'm probably going to cop a load of crap from 'traditionalists'. ;)

Col

[Sonshu]

100% with ya buddy. The stuff you have put to me is what my Taijitsu was as well.

Nicely put but the problem with tradionalists is they can stifle natural growth and development.

Let em moan!

Nice stuff and agree with you.

[xplasma]

Tai-jutsu is a collect of Different unarmed combat however, they pre-date alot of the styles you mentioned above.

Throws,Joint Locking, Circular Movement -> Ju-jutsu
Power Strikes, Stationary Movement-> Daken-jutsu
Organ/muscle ripping, Horizontal Movement-> Koshi-jutsu
Precise point attacks, Bone breaking, Angular Movement -> Koppo-jutsu
Evasion-> Sabaki-jutsu
Positioning-> Kamae-jutsu

[Sonshu]

1st) Spelling is not a major thing for me as I did not do great in english and type pretty fast.

2nd) The spelling of Jujitsu is actually how many styles of it is spelt included the STYLES THREAD on this site. So well ignore this one as well - also do a search on my spelling on MSN and you will see a lot of Jujitsu's.

3rd)
*chuckles* Jujutsu and kenjutsu (correct spellings) do not refer to specific traditions. They are generic terms for unarmed combat and sword skills, and are used in *many* old koryu.

Who said about traditions there arts. They are not very generic they are specific also.

In any event, none of the Ninpo traditions draw upon a prior jujutsu or kenjutsu ryuha as a basis for their teachings.

Not sure where your going here either as all my teachings have pointed to this root as these were the older forms so naturally they will be used in the creation and development to what we call Ninjitsu today - more has been added to it agreed but I think the basis for it came from Jujitsu however you spell it.

"Taijutsu" does not come from "jujutsu". In fact, "taijutsu" is a much older concept used to apply to the unarmed combat methods of various ryuha.

Being a bit too picky here as we all know this!

[Sonshu]

Just because Ninpo shares a few concepts or techniques in common with some of these other arts does not mean those arts are "encompassed" within Ninpo. Any experienced practitioner of ANY of these arts would laugh at you for making such a claim.

Sorry it does as how come when I go to train with Judo players I can a massive amount of the same techniques as they do. The work is very much the same. What magic do you know that I dont then?

[Sonshu]

Yes it does Judo and Aikido that are new arts but taken from Jujitsu.

To my humble knowledge it does not predate this style though and takes a lot from it as do many arts.

The point with Judo and Aikido was there for a cross over point and to say a good thing with Taijitsu is it does bolt on well with these arts.

As Freeform and I have found out.

[xplasma]

my bad, mis read but you wrote, yeah I have notice that my Jujutsu and Aikido training overlap with Taijutsu. I always though it was kinda cool. I was just giving the list of the actual arts of Taijutsu.

Aikido overlaps with the Jujutsu arts and like you said before Karate kicks do overlap with the Daken-justu part of the Art. And Kenjustsu overlaps with Batto-jutsu/Itto-jutsu
Remember alot of Japanese arts dervive and steal from each other. And Ninpo with Jujutsu being among the first japanese arts, its no surpise to see a overlaps.

[Sonshu]

No probs mate!

Its true my point was by doing good Taijitsu you can become to a reasonable level in Aikido and Jujitsu and Judo or Sombo as this art can cover so much.

I do not do Taijitsu anymore but a large portion of my training is based on it as it taught me many key things that I keep and use today.

[heretic888]

Nicely put but the problem with tradionalists is they can stifle natural growth and development.

An interesting claim, considering the "natural growth' method is about as 'traditional' as it comes.

I think what you are actually talking about is the difference between kuden arts and koryu arts. Not between 'traditionalism' and 'modernism'.

Tai-jutsu is a collect of Different unarmed combat however, they pre-date alot of the styles you mentioned above.

No. Taijutsu is just 'skill with the body'. It is a generic term many old ryuha used to refer to unarmed combat. Asayama Ichiden ryu, for example, refers to its unarmed methods as taijutsu. As does some schools of Aikido. Its not exclusive to Ninpo by any means.

The same can be said for jujutsu, as well.

Throws,Joint Locking, Circular Movement -> Ju-jutsu
Power Strikes, Stationary Movement-> Daken-jutsu
Organ/muscle ripping, Horizontal Movement-> Koshi-jutsu
Precise point attacks, Bone breaking, Angular Movement -> Koppo-jutsu

That's a somewhat inaccurate conceptualization. If you are talking about Takamatsu-den Taijutsu specifically, it would be better to simply list off the characteristics of the different ryuha than that schema above.

Evasion-> Sabaki-jutsu
Positioning-> Kamae-jutsu

*chuckles* Those aren't real words. :rolleyes:

1st) Spelling is not a major thing for me as I did not do great in english and type pretty fast.

That has absolutely no bearing on what I said beforehand.

2nd) The spelling of Jujitsu is actually how many styles of it is spelt included the STYLES THREAD on this site. So well ignore this one as well - also do a search on my spelling on MSN and you will see a lot of Jujitsu's.

Popularity does not confer legitimacy.

I explained to you, very specifically, the differences between the two kanji. I'm sorry you're having such a problem with this. Maybe you should try studying Japanese to clear up your misconceptions??

As for the 'jitsu' mess-up, that mistransliteration has its origins in many Americans that trained in Japan just after World War II and came back to the States with an incomplete knowledge of the tradition and culture. It also stems from the Gracies when they intentionally mispelled their art 'jiujitsu' to differentiate it from traditional Japanese jujutsu.

Who said about traditions there arts. They are not very generic they are specific also.

NO, they're *not*. There are literally *hundreds* of kenjutsu and jujutsu ryuha throughout Japanese history, and they differ as much as the various schools of kung-fu. If you don't believe me, examine the kenjutsu of Togakure ryu, Kukishin ryu, and Tenshin Katori Shinto ryu and see how many "similarities" you see.

Please research the matter before making half-baked claims.

Not sure where your going here either as all my teachings have pointed to this root as these were the older forms so naturally they will be used in the creation and development to what we call Ninjitsu today - more has been added to it agreed but I think the basis for it came from Jujitsu however you spell it.

*chuckles* Sources, please.

Unless you can name to me a specific jujutsu ryuha that any of the Takamatsu-den supposedly draws upon, then I must politely ask you to retract your misinformed statement.

Being a bit too picky here as we all know this!

No, you apparently don't. You say 'taijutsu' as if it only refers to a single style or ryuha, when it was in fact a term used by many ryuha --- several of which had little stylistic similarities.

Sorry it does as how come when I go to train with Judo players I can a massive amount of the same techniques as they do. The work is very much the same. What magic do you know that I dont then?

Specifics, please.

You tell me the names of the supposed "shared" kata of the two arts and how they are mechanically similar and then we'll talk.

On a side note, your claims are truly quite interesting --- considering Takamatsu To****sugu was "horrified" to see the judo-ka he observed with using techniques in which they bent their backs. They obviously don't have as much in common as you think.

The point with Judo and Aikido was there for a cross over point and to say a good thing with Taijitsu is it does bolt on well with these arts.

Many martial arts have "crossover points". I can't even begin to list the number of martial arts that use knife-hands and hip throws.

That doesn't mean any of these arts are "contained" or "encompassed" within another, and evinces a decided ignorance of what these arts consist of in their totality.

Laterz. :rolleyes:

[xplasma]

heretic888,

Those arts and description came straight out of the Genbukan Ninpo Bugei Manual for Taijustu.

Kamae-jutsu is also referrend to as Kamae Kata and Sabaki-jutsu is sometimes written as Sabaki Gata Taihen Jutsu.

[Sonshu]

An interesting claim, considering the "natural growth' method is about as 'traditional' as it comes.

Not gonna go far on this one - but in MAP (this site) we talk about traditionalists and more modern aproaches to the arts - its a map thing and please bear this in mind in the future as you are new to the site. We are saying the same thing here.

That's a somewhat inaccurate conceptualization. If you are talking about Takamatsu-den Taijutsu specifically, it would be better to simply list off the characteristics of the different ryuha than that schema above.

I am with the guy that put the list as it made sence to me without writing a 1000 word essay on it so carry on XPLASMA, I know what you mean.


The spelling thing - it does have a bearing as you were going on about it. To me I don't really care as either is a current in use way of spelling the art we are talking about.


There are literally *hundreds* of kenjutsu and jujutsu ryuha throughout Japanese history

Again something we are all aware of, please do give us some credit.

No, you apparently don't. You say 'taijutsu' as if it only refers to a single style or ryuha,

No I say it refering to in different ways depending on what I type -At times its for the natural body movements common to many arts and at time Taijitsu as thats what its called as in Bujinkan Taijitsu. Nothing more.

Specifics, please.

Well I am the specific in this case - I go to do Judo and do the same as I do in my Bujinkan Taijitsu - its pretty obvious and many people here are agreeing with me so unless we are all missing something, a hip throw is a hip throw!

That doesn't mean any of these arts are "contained" or "encompassed" within another, and evinces a decided ignorance of what these arts consist of in their totality.

Never said in their totality I said a good taijitsu person can be ok and have a good grounding in these other arts because the bolt on. Thats all and I never said they were exaclty the same, also people on here who do Taijitsu agree. Do you do the SKH Quest Ninjitsu?

[Sonshu]

He is just being picky mate, let it go.

[Freeform]

I can't believe people are arguing over the english spellings of Japanese words.

It a bloody romanisation of some bloody squiggles!!! As long as it sounds similar we're alright!!!

I apologies to anybody who takes offense to me calling Kanji a bunch of squiggles ;)

Col

[Sonshu]

me or has it been somthing I have been good at FreaFord!

Sorry Freeform!

[Geordie Boy]

I won't be starting training in this till Jan :(

So would i be right in saying - it follows the same ideas as Jeet Kune Do - in that you learn several aspects of empty hand /weapons combat...and adapt what is right for you.

Plus changing slightly - I know the idea is to stay on the feet, but how would you rate the standing and ground grappling of the art.

[Freeform]

In the Goshindo, standing grapplings quite good, its no greco-roman but hey, gotta leave time for kicking and punching! ;)

Groundwork, a bit thin, its why I took up Judo and a bit of BJJ.

Col

[ns_oni]

a bit harsh there heretic ;)
Geordie Boy, you do adapt the techniques, but the philosophy of ninpo is different to JKD.

[Sonshu]

Because I have never done JDK but I guess they are similar in making it work for you.

Bujinkan Taijitsu could do with (from my own experience only here) more sparing to improve peoples stand up game.

Stand up grappling is pretty good and the ground work is just touched upon.

It is a good art though but you need to be able to make it work for you.

[DrUnKNiNjA]

Sonchu quick question how long have you been in this martial art??

[Sonshu]

Full time 4-5 years and as I said its from my own experience however my instructor was 16 years + in doing so -

Its not like I had not gained much experience in it, the problem is I felt it needed more sparing in it.

Depends on what people views are of sparing - to me its critical and very urgently needed and this is a flaw in many styles not just Taitjitsu, when my school changed its Ninjitsu style I found the Bujinkan was a softer style compaired to the BBD training we had done before where there was more hard sparing.

[CelticAngel]

amusing....I wonder how long all of you studied Martial Arts?... It doesn't matter anyway....

ANYWAYS.... Most of the Martial Arts are orignal but some are not. Ninjitsu for an Example... Some Ninjitsu did actually exist and was taught by true masters HOWEVER some Ninjitsu is just a combining of different Martial Arts Together.

And Ninjitsu is not a matter of this and that, its how its used, why its being used, and so on. Other Martial Arts is the same for an Example a person can Master the WORST style ever and still beat everybody else. It not about how much you learn or how strong you are its about how you use it.

[Zero Vector 0]

*chuckle*;)

[Sonshu]

Welcome to the board.

I will answer you question.

amusing....I wonder how long all of you studied Martial Arts?... It doesn't matter anyway....

About 13 years - it may help you to read peoples number of posts to give an idea on things discussed and look at there profile to give an indication on there experience and years of training.

I dont think what you said is really that relavant and I would not put a slur on your experience because you are 17 years old or because you starter at aged 4.

If you read other posts I have put on Ninjitsu you will see I have said many times its a good style and close to what you have put and the stand up grappling work is pretty good but the whole art needs to be made to work for the individual to be effective, this is somthing a few Taijitsu people I have trained with have not been too good at. However there are some who have made it work. I consider myself one of the latter.

[SilentNightfall]

First of all, I wanted to take the time to welcome heretic to the boards here at MAP. You might remember me from other forums. Maybe not. Either way, glad to see that you came here. I've always appreciated your posts as you're one to back up everything he says with firm evidence if possible.

Secondly, I have to say that I definitely agree with heretic on everything he's said. From the posts given, it sounded as though we were talking as though various styles were nearly the same. While a hip throw may be a hip throw, the way one goes about such is not always the same. Concepts are entirely different. Granted, arts may contain some of the same techniques as Ninjutsu, but they are by no means similar. This is probably why there are so many other Japanese arts out there such as various forms of Karate-do that will just plain mess up your taijutsu in Ninjutsu.

Lastly, I wanted to comment on the idea that Ninjutsu somehow needs more sparring. I am still puzzled as to why this assertion comes up all the time. Many dojos do randori at times, but why the need for sparring? The Japanese don't spar during their classes. Even my instructor (Papa-san) doesn't include sparring in his classes. Why? It isn't needed to obtain good taijutsu. Maybe it teaches some people how to get used to taking a hit and keep going, but it doesn't enhance your taijjutsu in my opinion. There are just too many great instructors out there who don't spar as part of their training for me to believe otherwise. If Papa-san can move the way he does without having sparred to get his skill, then that's all I need to know. I did enough sparring in my TKD days and it never did much for me anyway. To each his own, I suppose. Just don't go around saying Ninjutsu is lacking because of many dojos not sparring. Instead, just say that it was lacking for you. Also, the groundwork in the art is not just "touched upon." It all depends on where you train and what concepts are currently being covered. Assumptions are not appreciated here. Comments like this should be preceeded by "at my dojo" so that no one thinks that every dojo is scarce in the groundfighting department.

One more comment... Pertaining to the art needing to work more for the individual... How is it that Ninjutsu does not currently do this? People can adapt this art to themselves no matter who they are. Even those confined to wheelchairs have been able to study this art so to say that it needs to be more adaptable is pretty ridiculous. Lemme know what you all think. Jaa, mata.

[DrUnKNiNjA]

Someone asked me once what do you need to learn ninjutsu? i answered nothing a naked man can learn ninjutsu just as well!

[DrUnKNiNjA]

thankyou again Silent for reading and writing my mind, you are a very devoted and gifted individual never change!, if you do change change for the better! :)

[Sonshu]

I think you may have miss read my posts a little.

I have said the art needs to be made to work for the individual and it is down to the student (As we all are) to do this, also it is one of the best arts for getting to this as its slightly less structured than many in it must be done this way only. So we agree on this point.

Concepts for Ninjitsu to me are if it works - then it worked! this is the same for a hip throw and I try not to make things to defininigly different. For exaple I have used my Ninjitsu training to have competancy in Judo/Sombo/Aikido/Jujitsu/Karate and other similar arts. This was the only point I was trying to make in that I was saying it was adaptable.

The point of a martial art is that is should work and the flexability in the style is an advantage.

Sparring for me is like live blade training - it only serves to take the shock element away which is how many people lose fights. It is important and I DID SAY (FROM MY EXPERIENCE) earlier in the post. But from my experience all the Taijitsu people I have sparred with whilst doing the art I have had little or no trouble dominating because of my Kickboxing/Karate experience before (this is striking only) and in grappling Ninjitsu helped me take the silver medal in the south of england Sombo Championships and with my MMA training. It is an art I do champion but have my reasons and experiences where I felt it could have more things added to it when I was learning.

However it in understandable why the art get a bad rep when you see books like "Taijitsu Close Quarter Grappling" by Omoto Saiji which is a shocker!

Guys don't miss understand me as the art has never let me down on the street - just that I felt there were things it lacked or needed to add and Sparing was the main thing.

[Sonshu]

But I am told it is very poor and is getting some serious flack. I have seen some dodgy Ninjitsu demo's and scene some dodgy books but perhaps we can see and understand why the art comes under critisim.



www.winjutsu.com/source/s...sumi06.mov

[Brad Ellin]

I have viewed all these clips, and having been on the receiving end (and having done them) myself, I can vouch for their effectiveness. The problem in viewing these clips and basing an opinion on them is that you are viewing 5 to 10 seconds of an Art that is over a thousand years old. It would be like me saying that Chess is dull and boring based on watching 2 old guys in a park playing for 5 seconds and then moving on. You never get to appreciate the deeper strategies and setups, moves and countermoves that makes Chess exciting to a Chess player. If you base your perceptions of any Art on a 10 second video clip and the prejudices of your own Art and background, then of course you will slag it. Sonshu, based on your own experiences, you have said that Taijutsu works for you in some cases. Is it not possible that your lack of finding an instructor that was interested (or even proficient) in ground fighting Taijutsu that has prejudiced your view of it? My personal experiences have been nothing but positive. On my feet or on the ground. Of course I have been fortunate enough to train with a large variety of instructors and Budoka. What I find lacking in one, another one will more than make up for.
As for the whole sparring debate, I personally find no use for it anymore. I did it in my younger days in Tang So Do and Tae Kwon Do ( and Judo, White Crane, Boxing, Pa Kua, Arnis and Freestyle). Nowadays, I know that my Taijutsu is good enough and my Kihon solid enough, that I can handle myself if and when the need arises. It has and I have. The "street" has been my forge, but the Dojo was the anvil that shaped me. However, having said that, if you are a competitor, then I can see where sparring can and will make a diffference in you and your skills. In which case I whole heartedly recommend it. But in the Booj, you will find very few that follow that path. It just isn't why or what we train for.

[Sonshu]

Thanks for your words and I know you and I have had a similar discussion before.

I have trained under 3 instructors the highest an 8th Dan and also Brian McCarthy who is the Head of BBD. I found the BBD to be the most effective version (again stresses for me) and I guess this is because Brian was the Irisih National Kickboxing Champ so his take on this is from that.

I do a lot of ground fighting now and none of these instructors have really put much on it.

Kurohana - what ground fighting do you do?

Sparing to me is critical as I have said so you can learn to spot the openings and its live, so then you can make your move. As I have said I do defend the art and have been able to make it work for me as the style of Sonshu I train is a hybreed style with many Ninjitsu parts at its core.

The camera angles on one Taijitsu demo I saw were not too good and the intricasies were not very visable as its all above the waste stuff but if this is the case it should not really be shown as it looked shockingly poor and it was clear to see how the art comes under so much fire with poor demo's and books out. Some books are valuavble tools but some need to be burned.

[Brad Ellin]

Ground fighting? What ever works. The few times I have had to go to ground, it has always been my solid grounding in the Kihon that have pulled my a$$ from the fire, so to speak. Remember, Kihon (or any other part of Taijutus/Ninjutsu) is not about memorizing set techniques (shameless plug: read my article on Kamae) but rather understanding how the body works and making it work to your advantage. It's a matter of distance, timing, balance, knowing the nerve/pressure points, knowing how the joints work (physics/mechanics) and doing whatever it takes to win.
And yes, I agree, some books are valuable and some are worthless. However, I am all for leaving the worthless ones out there. Why? Because, if the guy that is causing all the trouble at the next gig I work has learned his Taijutsu from a book, well hey, my job is half finished, isn't it?

[Sonshu]

True, the points I am merely trying to make are a few simple ones:

1) Taijitsu can make you competent in a number of other styles as I listed them and it has for me to which I am greatful.

2) Its ground work is just breezed over and it does give you enough to offer a basic level of defence on the floor but it is not a real aspect of the style. Well not to the level I now know on the floor I am much better by the MMA route than I would have ever been on the Taijitsu route. It is not really somthing that is key to the art and people would gain lost from cross training with some ground fighting arts for a more rounded route if thats what floats your boat.

3) Sparing is key especially if you ever need to use your skills, eg door work as its the simple skills that are so important for a real life situation. Like what I said about live blade work.

4) There are many tradionalists in Taijitsu the will argue that a hip throw (using this example) is different in Ninjitsu than Jujitsu, however to me I am a simple guy and if you throw him and it works and it was over your hip than its a hip throw and I don't want to get into the nitty gritty of why its a Ninjitsu throw and not a Jujitsu throw. To me it works and when I do a hip throw in a Judo/Jujitsu/Sombo/Aikido etc its still to me a hip throw so please don't miss understand me but I am just a simple guy and there is no difference to me because of the cross training I have done. Freeform seems to often be close with me on this from his own cross training.

All in all I am a defender of the style but I have seen outside and have seen both better and worse things - also people who have made many false claims about what the style offers, as I don't do it anymore I guess I am a little too honest at times.

[SilentNightfall]

I think one of our main concerns, Sonshu, lies in the fact that quite often, your above post for example, you state that sparring is key and the lack of it in most Bujinkan dojos makes the art less effective. We've talked about this before. I believe both Kurohana and myself have both stated our positions on sparring and that our Taijutsu/Ninjutsu has managed to work beautifully without it in our curriculum. I understand that you feel it is a necessary component, but when talking about the art as a whole and beyond the individual, you cannot say that the lack of sparring is a negative because for a great many people, it is not. Besides, we can always point out how the sparring done in TKD, Muay Thai, etc. could never be done in Ninjutsu/Taijutsu. After all, a great deal of our arsenal done at high speeds (unless you have the control of Hatsumi-sensei, any of the Japanese shihan, Papa-san, etc.) will inevitably cause severe damage to your opponent.

Anyway, my main point is just this: Don't say sparring is key, crucial, etc. You can say that you left the art because it didn't offer what you were looking for, but the lack of sparring and your opinion that it does not cover enough ground fighting does not mean that such lacks in every dojo nor that the art is somehow not as good because of this. I feel that my groundfighting skills are more than adequate. I often train with a friend who has been wrestling for years and can get the better of him. Not surprising that a lot of times I do so by using moves taught in Ninjutsu that would be banned in MMA competitions and such, but that is not the point. I've ranted enough for now, just didn't want anything to be taken away from the art because of the experience of one. I understand you defend the art, Sonshu, it's just that what you say it lacks it does not. Mileage will vary depending on your dojo and instructors. But yes, if you aren't getting what you need from a certain dojo, by all means, get it somewhere else.

[Sonshu]

You have just agreed with what I have said - at every point I have said this is only from my experiences.

I am just putting my views on the art on the board and every person has to make there own mind up and I am not about finding or exposing flaws in the art. Just stating my experiences from it.

Thats all mate! :D

[SilentNightfall]

The only thing that made me believe otherwise was the way you worded the following:

3) Sparing is key especially if you ever need to use your skills, eg door work as its the simple skills that are so important for a real life situation.

This simply made it seem as though sparring was essential to any art instead of one's opinion. But now that we have that cleared up, I'm happy to just smile and nod. :)

[Sonshu]

) Sparing is key especially if you ever need to use your skills, eg door work as its the simple skills that are so important for a real life situation.

If your doing this type of work - this is a decision someone has made and it is an indicator that they may well be called on to use there training in there job and defence of themselves or colleages. They are placing themselves in a firing line so to speak.

Yes THEN it is really important I fell unless you want on the job training. To your avarage person who does Martial Arts then no its not key - just depends on why you do the art thats all.

But for the reason I said about a doorman then yes it is key and well worth the time, if you work in an office it tends to be less dangerious like me.

Hope that makes sence.

[SilentNightfall]

It makes sense where you're coming from, yes, however...as Kurohana and I have both said, even if you do jobs that constantly threaten to make you use your skills, sparring is not necessary. I don't feel like sparring would make me any more of a capable security guard or bouncer than I currently would be. Sparring's best advantage to me is that it teaches some people to take a hit and keep moving, however, many have told me that sparring has also made their Taijutsu more sloppy. It's all a matter of opinion and of the individual. To me and many others, sparring is just not key to one's training, even if you are in a dangerous line of work. There might also be a reason unknown to us as to why the Japanese do not spar. Either way, sparring is effective for some and not very important to others. Once again, your mileage may vary.

[Sonshu]

Then we will keep our own view points and politly agree to disagree on this bit.

Cheers all

Just trying to liven up the Taijitsu section as people said it was dull so thought I would get a few people posting.

[Ice Queen]

Sonshu - i find most dojos offer some form of cross training when it comes to taijutsu. Does your's?

[Sonshu]

I think its not so much the dojo but the syllibus in the art. There is striking, locks, throws, weaponry and more.

This is what I was saying.

[Ice Queen]

Well, actually I know alot MORE dojos that don't offer that's why I was asking. So if you're not doing BT, then what do you practice now?

[Sonshu]

Its my own thing and its main core it taijitsu with some of most styles chucked in for fun. Just stuff I have liked and picked up over the years from lots of decent guys and girls.

My Taijitsu instructors were good and I found out the basic core of stuff was a intro into many of the other Japanese arts.

Where do you feel it was short?

[Ice Queen]

Well, my friend and I have come to agree that in order to be good at any one specific form, you have to cross train in others. Good taijutsu, means cross in some form of JJ. And inorder to have "good" JJ i find crossing it with some judo.....etc.etc etc.

I was just curious if you've crossed into any of the other forms.
I'm not sure you were short at all.