Hand Strikes

[Sonshu]

In Taijitsu there are so many different types of hand strikes: what do the students of this art think to them all?

(Please ignore typo's)

Fudo-Ken
Shuto
Ura-Shuto
Boshiken
Koppoken
Taisho
Hosenken
Uraken
Shin-kan-ken
shishiken

Views all?

[Zamfoo]

ohhhh the boshiken to that pressure point below the ribs, that's a great one

[Sonshu]

As I have found most people remember the boshiken mainly cos it hurts a lot but its a harder strike to do and a slim possiblity of hurting yourself.

List your views on the strikes you know please?

Thanks

[heretic888]

Whatever works.

[Sonshu]

The reason I put this post there is to add more depth as someone was saying there is no depth to the Taijitsu section. I post stuff and you answer with "WHAT EVER WORKS".

The idea is to discuss them, here is my take:

Fudo-Ken

To me many people put too much emphasis on this and I have even seen a student use this in a fight and as a result he got hit hard for his error" I know people use this as a training move but often this is not made clear enough and if so why do high level Dan grades still defend against it. Better use more boxing type stuff as its more realistic. Ok for beginners but ditch it after say 3rd que.

Shuto

Not bad and some smaller people with less strength can cause real damage with this move as my other half can hurt me with it more than her punch! - Not my cup of tea though.

Ura-Shuto

See above, looks cool though.

Boshiken

Hurts but I use this more asa mogaruch (sp) in grappling to realease a hold of hurt someone else.

Koppoken

Not bad for for buying a second in a grapple but thats about it.

Taisho

Good old palm strike - hurts too and a good move.

Hosenken

Crap bin it!!!!

Uraken

Backfist - never a bad one!

Shin-kan-ken

Beginner MA move please - not much good though and one I would ditch unless a blindside cheap shot in the throat is an option.

Shishiken

BIN IT NOW!

[heretic888]

The reason I put this post there is to add more depth as someone was saying there is no depth to the Taijitsu section. I post stuff and you answer with "WHAT EVER WORKS".

*raises eyebrow* You obviously don't understand the concept of Nagare. :rolleyes:

[Sonshu]

I am keen to hear your take?

[Ninjabucky]

The hand weapons are designed for certain targets of the body,straight forward, don't forget you use your whole body when attacking. my favourite is punch or grab comes in, like wind to the outside of the attack, lightly, walk through stamping sampogeri, taking the knee out, with the left, dropping the weight down,throwing a left shikanken down into the neck across the windpipe, then pivot quickly back to the left, sending a right handed palm strike to the solar or to the jaw line, has to be done in a one , two motion. Not one has got up yet. Body goes into shock.:D

[Sonshu]

But hard to pull off under pressure in a real situation.

Nice moves though!

[Ninjabucky]

Easy to pull off, anything is, depends how your mind is, is your heart in it, be nothing, think of nothing and flow, timing and distance, surpasses speed and strenght, took me 3 brutal years to get it into my head off my shidoshi's. Nice to have the power and speed, but not a nessesity

[Sonshu]

away from it.

Now I stick to the simple moves that can be done with easy for max damage.

[Ninjabucky]

Simplistic overkill, thats how nature does it, very cruel yet sincere when needs be, as is a shinobi

[hafer34]

When someone strikes me with a boshi-ken(thumb strike) it just ticks me off. So I think the open hand strikes and palm strike is effective but strikes such as the shikan-ken and shuto are a little unrealistic. I understand long-time practicioners can make them work but most cant in street fight. Fudo-ken is definitly my favorite.

[Ninjabucky]

Everythings works, it has a time and a place, as i say it should flow, yet setting up sounds hard, its easy when you don't think:yeleyes:

[Freeform]

Keep it simple, stay alive! :D

Standard boxing hands, the odd shuto, the odd uraken, the odd palm, forearm strikes and sometimes a ridge hand if I'm feeling flash.

Col

[Ninjabucky]

Simplistic is best, nothing fancy. i get ask all the time, jumping spinnin kicks can i do them, i say no, not real, i won't even entertain it, its for show, it would never work in a pub or nightclub, maybe on the carpark or in asda's, why bother, in off angle direct attack, eliminate, you don't see a tiger doing anything flash killin a zebra, its kills it easiest way, end of story:yeleyes: :yeleyes:

[KundaKali]

I don't do vocabulary, and BTW I'm posting here for the first time, rah rah sis boom ba.... however: I think it's called Boshi-ken, the one where you make a first and then stick the thumb on top of the forefinger so it's all kinds of thumb-strike time... someone said getting hit with that just annoys them. I'd bet they'd not been hit in soft fleshy arease, and there is one point on this hand-kamae that I picked up from Hoshinjutsu, is that one you land a thumb-poke on, say, someones pectoral muscle, just lift and lower the thumb to grab a little flesh and use grip strength to twist and shake a bit as the rest of your body does other fun things...

[Brad Ellin]

I'm going to have to agree with heretic and say "Whatever works", but I will clarify a bit. I practice all these strikes and a few more without labeling them as "this time I will strike with fudoken or boshiken or uraken, etc.." Occasionally, when doing a particular technique, I will say to myself, I will try various ways of doing a shuto because that "forearm is just begging for it" . But the idea is to learn the fists and strikes and kicks so that you can throw them away and just "do". Complete and total freedom without locking yourself into the idea that a fudo ken is only good for this or shishinken is only good for this and so on and so forth.
Just my take on things.

[bostonninja]

Fudo Ken is an old standby. I love it, I use it. The shuto, will mess your world up if used right! Sharp pinpoint strikes, break bones and do a maxim amount of damage. I will admit that the boshiken is a little hairy to get used to, but once you have the feel for it! Pow! that thing hurts so much my eyes go cross. I have had it used on me in two ways. 1.) thrusting inward with angles. 2.) Pressing the thumb against soft targets. Anybody who says they don't work, is a fool! It works.
Lastly the Shikanken, can you be used in many soft targets and not just the throat. (although that works great!)
I have seen it used on the inside of the thigh, arms, armpit, gut, Ziphode process. Remeber that the bladed hand can be turned to meet it's target.

Try this outstrech your uke's armtake the shikaken and softly strike the BONE between the Bi, and tri. muscle. The pain is enough to drop you rigth to the floor. And the best part is the more built the guy is the easier it is to hit! Bonus. That is my two cents.
Oh and who ever brought up the boxing thing, umm no. Boxing has rules, thats why the can square of toe to toe. Doing that in a fight against someboby bigger stronger, umm kinda dumb. esp, your groin and legs are in a bad spot. I am sorry I love to ramble!

[Kagebushi]

in my area we have a lot of "rednecks" or whatever you want to call them, so fights usually include flailing, swinging haymakers. my favorite counter for this is to step in past the punch and headbutt to the nose and then step through with a boshi ken to the solarplexus or knee to the groin or stomp to the knee.
of course punching the arms or using a slamming block usually does fairly well, too. /\fudo ken

i dont really like shishin ken too much, if i need to jab something i usually just use my forefinger

i like shikan ken for arm and sternum strikes

fudo ken is good for face strikes, but not a whole lot else-too spread out, unless you use the second knuckles for something like the back of the hand

knees are really useful, since you usually cant see them at close range, but i dont seem to be able to make elbows work.

shi-tan ken is really useful. its grat wor wrist locks, and it can also be used for hooks or rips

shako ken is really good for rips and rakes, as well as palmheels
anyway thats my take on them

[mpearce]

Fudo-Ken

To me many people put too much emphasis on this and I have even seen a student use this in a fight and as a result he got hit hard for his error" I know people use this as a training move but often this is not made clear enough and if so why do high level Dan grades still defend against it. Better use more boxing type stuff as its more realistic. Ok for beginners but ditch it after say 3rd que.

Shuto

Not bad and some smaller people with less strength can cause real damage with this move as my other half can hurt me with it more than her punch! - Not my cup of tea though.

Ura-Shuto

See above, looks cool though.

Boshiken

Hurts but I use this more asa mogaruch (sp) in grappling to realease a hold of hurt someone else.

Koppoken

Not bad for for buying a second in a grapple but thats about it.

Taisho

Good old palm strike - hurts too and a good move.

Hosenken

Crap bin it!!!!

Uraken

Backfist - never a bad one!

Shin-kan-ken

Beginner MA move please - not much good though and one I would ditch unless a blindside cheap shot in the throat is an option.

Shishiken

BIN IT NOW!

One thing that people forget is these strikes are target specific. They are all very very effective when used properly; on the right target and with the right body behind the strike. I know because Hatsumi-sensei uses them on me every week. A Shishiken is a good example, this is a strike that is used in very specific ways. Takamatsu-sensei used this strike to remove an attackers eye.

Michael

[Vanir]

Here's my take on several punching shapes.

Fudo-ken
Fist. Hand will often live longer using this one for outright strikes as such, so long as one sets their wrist properly going into each strike. Never get complacent with the amount of force you're likely to place behind this.

Shuto
Useful but watch those fingers, although this is much stronger than Happaken. Great for nerve strikes on the inside forearms, around the jawline, at joints and just about anywhere that needs a bit of force concentrated on a relatively small area.

Ura-shuto
Watch the elbow joint using this, don't let the force of your assertion be taken at your skeletal structure. Useful in its place, sometimes another hand-shape just doesn't fit the bill, ya know?

Boshiken
Sorry, requires softening manoeuvres (as does most koshijutsu and even certain koppojutsu aspects) to gain any response from the prospective assailant at all. I found that even with the black belts of the Sakushin dojo I had transferred from Bujinkan to (whom had become annoyed about the fact becoming prevailant), boshiken nerve strikes (to the ribs in this instance) were utterly ineffective at my discretion, until repeated strikes had been made so as to hit above superficial bruising, or a sore-spot engineered to be there. Probably much better for hard-arse eye strikes in a tight grapple (jutaijutsu).

Koppoken
Great for batting heavy stuff aside (some 200lb assailant's front kick). Also good for strikes against heavy bones (koppojutsu). Requires well balanced position (a good setup) to gain the most out of, then just pound away like a gorilla.

Happaken (open hand)
Watch your fingers with this above all, especially those last two. Careful with the smaller metacarpals on the outside of the hand too (smashed mine to bits once and sort of gotta watch how I use something like this). Good for nerve strikes on the inside of the wrist and those extra few inches one sometimes has to squeeze out of a bad situation. Never use edge-hand in this fashion.

Shitanken (pincer)
Awesome jutaijutsu device. Invaluable for getting those nerve strikes to move an assailant around. Can also end a conflict in less than two seconds flat under the Justifiable Homocide rules with this one.

Shakoken (tiger claw)
Great for Ichimonji based jutaijutsu or koshijutsu in general. Love it. Also a great prelimenary for koppojutsu bone manoeuvres. Be very wary of fingers.

Shinkanken
Knuckles do actually break and this is a good way to achieve it. Don't go against oppositional forces with this one, but once again useful in the right situation. Jawline, upper arm nerve junctions, etc.

Shishinken
Very very very specific use. Takes about the strength of a 3 year old toddler to break a grown man's pinky. Bones broken under combat type circumstances frequently provide maiming injuries (ie. permanent alteration).

Uraken
Never use 'em myself. Good way to break four bones (those fateful metacarpals) unless you like to pull punches. I rarely pull a punch, hate so much having to fight in the first place.

Taisho
Believe it or not you can hurt yourself with this one too (nerves not bones, ouch) and I like a more clinical approach than "palm punches" myself. A good elbow strike serves in place with around three times the effect and no comparitive chance of self-injury. Otherwise I'd prefer a shinkanken in place, rarely this is the most appropriate shape for my intentions.

[Keikai]

When someone strikes me with a boshi-ken(thumb strike) it just ticks me off.

Same with me, its a really annoying strike, out of the 16 striking methods i like sokiyaku to the inside of the thigh, just above the knee, nice!

And koppo ken to the jaw or temple, kiten ken to the back of the neck, boshiken to the groin, kiten ken to the shichibatsu, now theres a good one if you can get it, i can go on all day here............

[oni_sensei]

I haven't brushed up on my Japanese in a while, but an urashuto to the solar-plexus or back of the neck/knee and palm heels (koppoken?) serve me nicely in practise. I absolutely loathe using Fudo-ken, I have rather weak arms, and although I'm developing my upper body strength, I prefer strikes that won't leave too many bruises on my hands.

[Sonshu]

I have with most of my training droppen many of the Ninjitsu moves and changed some of them to make them easier for me to use.

Koppoken is the join of the knuckle if memory serves correct and the palm heel is Taisho (sp).

[Keikai]

Koppoken is normally the thumb joint, nice and effective doing one either side of the head at the same time, then hold it there and squeeze....

Ooh i can feel the pain..

[Sonshu]

Sorry meant to add the word thumb in there.

Not knuckle its the joint between the knuckle that allows your thumb to move. Should have prof read that post.

Mogaruchi not a strike as such but hurts pretty well.