explinations please!

[windtalker]

before and after jkd classes most of us students take an opprotunity to spend a little time discussing various martial art related topics. after finally getting past terri tom and our weekly book bashing ritual the subject of various exercises became debated.

for most of my life the exercise program has changed very little. just using garden-variety stretching along with the sit-ups and the like. theres some weight training and things like hitting a heavy bag or running. this has not changed for me because it has always seemed to work. and because theres an obvious lack of knowledge about exercises outside the forementioned.

when the subject of various types of exercise is brought up there appears to be significant debates about what produces the best results. words like pilates and plyometrics are used. even yoga and tai chi. which presents two problems.

first sometimes ive had the impression a few classmates also have a limited range of understanding about different exercises. yet the make considerable effort to join in the discussion by talking about something which they claim is all that. listening as opposed to participating has always been my route as theres not much for me to offer in the subject. does it sound common for people to use words like plyometrics without understanding what thats really about?

second its difficult to understand how some of the different training methods work and what they are for. not only would it be nice to participate in these weekly conversations my training ideas could improve were there a wider base of knowledge to draw from. does anyone know of a website or book that clearly defines what pilates and the like is for and how they work? this might sound bad coming from a student of martial arts for over 10yrs. now yet ive always done the 'same old thing' because it works and my attention has been directed elsewhere.

those are my questions. do people talk a game about exercises without good working knowledge on a regular basis? wheres a good source to figure out what is being refered to?

[Prophet]

Yeah, lots of people like to flap their gums about subjects they don't really know to much about. Fitness is no exception.

But if youre looking for a good website to start.... well you found one! RIGHT HERE.

There are people here on the H&F forum that could answer allmost any question about fitness, from basic knowledge to advanced science.

Just ask away!

[windtalker]

hey prophet,
thank you for replying to my thread. its a little embarassing that despite a number of years in martial arts so little is known on my part about the different kinds of exercises.

what potential benifit does tai chi offer to practioners of a style far different in methodology? this is not a slight against tai chi!! how could the art prove usefull to say a kickboxer? was thinking tai chi might have unique forms of stretching in thier postures. maybe the slow movements lend to establishing superior balance.

the differences/similarities between pilates and plyometrics sounds confusing as well. the descriptions i hear of them sound like theres a close resemblance somehow. are they entierly different or the same in basics?

the subject of functional strenght is brought up often. as opposed to what other kind of strenght? the mention of cattle-bell? training for improvement of the functional strenght gets mentioned. have no idea what that is. and where does yoga fit into the picture? my wife does yoga and i can recognize the benifit of flexibility yet little else.

doesnt someone have to figure out how which kind of exersise is best suited for thier needs? finding time for training in tai chi/pilates/plyometrics not to mention fuctional strenght/yoga sounds time consuming. and that doesnt even count weight training and cross-training.

sorry for the enormity of questions. just tired of hearing a lot of discussion on subjects that im largely ignorant of. and new forms of training could be helpfull after i figure out what they involve.

[Fenrir]

what potential benifit does tai chi offer to practioners of a style far different in methodology? this is not a slight against tai chi!! how could the art prove usefull to say a kickboxer? was thinking tai chi might have unique forms of stretching in thier postures. maybe the slow movements lend to establishing superior balance.


Improved balance is the main reason many people take this up and you can develop a really sturdy base with Tai Chi. There are other methods that are equal/better however, one of these being skateboarding (!) which is phenominal for balance. Im gonna get my skater buddy to show me some moves soon because good skaters have balance that is second to none. :love:

the differences/similarities between pilates and plyometrics sounds confusing as well. the descriptions i hear of them sound like theres a close resemblance somehow. are they entierly different or the same in basics?

Hmmmm... Pilates and plyometrics are not really related in their movements. Plyometrics are used mainly to develop explosive power and strength whereas pilates is used to strengthen various muscles, mainly in the core region. Im a massive fan of plyometrics, but they work best if the user is already fairly strong.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plyometrics
http://www.exrx.net/Lists/PowerExercises.html << A fantastic Website.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=90xhaI8TNgA << Ross Enamait is a plyometric god.


the subject of functional strenght is brought up often. as opposed to what other kind of strenght? the mention of cattle-bell? training for improvement of the functional strenght gets mentioned. have no idea what that is. and where does yoga fit into the picture? my wife does yoga and i can recognize the benifit of flexibility yet little else.


Functional strength is often used by people who are trying to find a reason to do something lame and dangerous like power snatches on a stability ball. :p so be careful when people use it.

In its proper context it means training for types of strength which is applicable to the sport its catering for and often means training for function rather than merely bigger muscles. Martial artists need the whole package; explosive strength, rotational strength, isometric strength, maximal strength, speed strength, strength endurance... etc.

A kettlebell is just another type of weight used for resistance training and often has the label 'functional'. Great power and endurance can be developed through kettlebells.

http://www.dragondoor.com/ << good stuff there.
Check out anything by 'Mike Mahler' (google is your friend :D). He has good Kettlebell instructions. They are expensive though so check whether it is worth buying them first, an olympic barbell set may be a much better investment.

Yoga is very good for martial artists, particually grapplers. I believe several of the Gracies do Yoga including (may need correcting) Rickson and Rorion. It is good for flexibility and strength in bizarre positions (which carry over surprisingly well to ground fighting).

doesnt someone have to figure out how which kind of exersise is best suited for thier needs? finding time for training in tai chi/pilates/plyometrics not to mention fuctional strenght/yoga sounds time consuming. and that doesnt even count weight training and cross-training.


Thats correct yep, you need to choose the stuff that best suits your goals and give you the most 'bang for your buck' so to speak. Most of the guys on here are big fans of the big compound weightlifting movements because they hit more muscles then anything else (Ie. Squats, Deadlifts, Powercleans, Pullups, Dips, Rows...). Im a large fan of www.crossfit.com as it provides me with a tough workout everyday and my main problem is 'paralysis by analysis'. Having something like this lets me just say 'crossfit says so', which saves time. Yoga would be good practiced maybe once or twice a week along with regular stretching. Im also a massive fan of the Olympic lifts for developing power and strength (clean and jerk, snatch) and gymnastic Isometric holds (L-Sits, Tuck Planches (will have a planche pressup by next year!!!!!) and Levers).

In short, do what suits your goals and helps iron out your weaknesses best and dont let your fitness training take over your martial arts. Training supplements your martial arts, not the other way round! :)

[SickDevildog]

Fen wins the thread, awsome post. :topic:

[Prophet]

Yay skateboarding, only problem is eventually you get "skater knee". Its a condition where your balancing legs (front one, or the one thats not pushing haha) quads become over dominant, and you get joint problems.

[Fenrir]

Yay skateboarding, only problem is eventually you get "skater knee". Its a condition where your balancing legs (front one, or the one thats not pushing haha) quads become over dominant, and you get joint problems.

Oh.... bugger...

Skate backwards? :p

[Suhosthe]

Oh.... bugger...

Skate backwards? :p
Alternate legs? ;)

[Prophet]

Alternate legs? ;)

Easier said then done. That is known as "riding switch" and is terribly hard. Especially if you have allready become profiecient with one leg. It is like picking up a guitar and playing it upsidedown and backwards; very hard. Its like riding a bike backwards, or... drawing a picture with your oposite hand.

[Suhosthe]

Easier said then done. That is known as "riding switch" and is terribly hard. Especially if you have allready become profiecient with one leg. It is like picking up a guitar and playing it upsidedown and backwards; very hard. Its like riding a bike backwards, or... drawing a picture with your oposite hand.
Yup. I assumed it'd be like trying to switch hands writing, only involving less ink and more potential for injury. ;)

On a more thoughtful note, however, if you're learning from scratch, why not learn from scratch both ways? :D

[Taoquan]

what potential benifit does tai chi offer to practioners of a style far different in methodology? this is not a slight against tai chi!! how could the art prove usefull to say a kickboxer? was thinking tai chi might have unique forms of stretching in thier postures. maybe the slow movements lend to establishing superior balance.

WT,
Sorry I don't have much knowledge of the other areas you have questions to, but I do practice Tai Chi. Tai chi is training just like any other MA (just with a different way about it) it strongly works on building leg strength as well. It would be greatly beneficial to building a very strong root and highly developed sense of balance.

These are a few of our (within my school) typical stretches:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jEBol54EjVE (within my school anyways)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x3X3uEHQTW4&mode=related&search= (this is an old req'd stretch for tai chi)

As for rooting and balance here is Chen Xiao Wang (one of the most highly respected masters in the world) demoing root and balance.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ldH40uF_f28&mode=related&search=

Tai chi also requires one to learn to "relax" joints to develop more of a "whipping" power that utilizes the whole body.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zxxebP0u31g (not his best demo)

So basically it works strongly on building whole body strength, while also working on all the joints being relaxed or "open" and once you add in the slowness of the forms (painstakingly slow). You are right the balance can be quite amazing, just try it yourself, stand on one leg and raise the opposite on straight out (similar to the single legged squat) now point the toes towards you (b/c most are heel kicks in tai chi). Hope this gives you an idea of some Tai Chi techs. :D

[SickDevildog]

One thing that Tai Chi and especialy Chi Kung has helped me with was keeping my joints ROM healthy.

They help me stay/become relaxed mentaly and physicaly and are just what's needed to balance the more intense weight and conditioning sessions out that I put myself through.

The Hip/waist area benefits alot from this kind of excercise due to the constant smooth/soft/relaxed rotation that the TC solo form and some of the CK forms have you do.

I used our kwoons 30min warmup (lots of similarities to Taoquans excercises)as a basis for my maintenance/recovery sessions and it works like a charm. East meets West, the best of both worlds.

The ratio between mobility drills and stretching is about 80/20 in favor of mobility drills, and I'm more flexible than I ever was.

So, I think everyone can benefit from adding some kind of Tai Chi/Chi Kung into their training regimes. Heck even Yoga would work, aslong as it's something that need you to focus on relaxing.

[windtalker]

something that caught my intrest about tai chi was the slower movement. the idea of practicing say a front kick with deliberate effort not to do that quickly looks to offer a good method for getting the fundamental mechanics down better.

theres a certain flow of technique which also has appeal to me. thats a very poor definition just the best i can think of right now. for years thats been a glaring absence of continuity with my skills. that may be something i find in future studies of silat yet the slow tai chi nature might help with learning the concept.

another reason for my intrest there is that of aging and injury. how martial artists like danny inosanto practice at thier level of ability despite getting up there in the years has proven difficult for me to understand. they probably used better training methods. that being said ive dealt with a lot of injuries either from training in general or sparring in specific.

now more than ever stretching is of the upmost importance. looking into alternative exercises is a neccesity and not just an intrest. those higher kicks have become more difficult and pulled muscles during grappling are more common that before. the martial arts is something i hope to continue doing for years to come. and im certain better exersise is the key.

[Taoquan]

well,
You also have to realize that some MA are almost "immune to the pain" and although they do have pain during training etc. they have gotten so good at shutting it off it merely is not a factor anymore. This usually turns out to be a bad thing, I have exp. the same thing treating some contractors etc. Their pain threshold is so high they don't feel pain when they should and do more damage.

I don't know enough about silat to comment on training methods, but one of the core ideas with TC, is to develop that continuity. There should be no gaps or stalls or breaks in the form. This can be very difficult and frustrating to do, but it is worth it imo.

[bwhite55]

so, i think i've decided on tai chi. i've been looking for something to help w/ knee flexibility and strength cuz i've got a bad knee and need to work on flexibility. thanks for the videos...

and much props to anybody who can do pistols. i've always admired anybody who has the balance and control and strength to do it.