WTF=Self Defense?

[Derrick]

Before I say anything else I want to say I am simply asking a question and not trying to stir up some big heated controversy!!:D

I'm only a white belt with yellow stripe, so this may be a stupid question anyway....

Our instructor is always talking about TKD for self defense. I'm sure there are aspects of it that would come in handy in a fight (fitness, flexibility, etc) but in all honesty most actual fights or assults happen right up close. Much too close to throw a kick at someone. (more likely a knee or headbutt).

Now after watching some of the colored belts sparring in our class I noticed that they were blocking with their hands, but not striking with them at all. I asked the instructor about this, and he said only red belts and up were allowed to use their hands for striking. Well, I watched a couple of red belts in class sparring and THEY didn't throw a single punch. When they got in too close to kick they would just try to push away and keep kicking. I occured to me that they didn't have a clue as too how to throw an actual punch at someone.

Now I know WTF is more of the sporting aspect of the MA, which is fine because my daughter will be able to pursue this as she grows older (she is 7) and for me I have no intentions of getting into brawls and am too old to worry about it (40) and just take it for the enjoyment and exercise, and for these things it is great!

I guess my question is are all WTF students trained like this? At competitions (I haven't been to one yet) are they allowed to throw punches?

If this is the norm, that's fine. I have no problem with it, I think they should make it more clear however that it is more of a sporting event than actual self-defence.

Just curious is all, not trying to step on anyones toes!!LOL

[Edward Hsu]

It really depends on the Instructor and not just the system....
I also teach WTF Taekwondo,but that was more for the Olympic style sparring and part of our cirriculumand testing requirements.
We also teach self-defense,but I teach more of a Hapkido program for that. Many WTF instructors are also versed in that art as well.
As far as the sparring, it's great for timing,working techniques in a controlled enviroment.

[Andrew Green]

Everyone claims self-defence. It's good marketing, what would they say "Come train with us, it doesn't work outside of the school, but it's still fun"... personally I'd be fine with that.... but a lot of people get into martial arts for self-defence.

self-defence is something everyone claims and a few might actually provide.

[xplasma]

Originally posted by Derrick

I guess my question is are all WTF students trained like this? At competitions (I haven't been to one yet) are they allowed to throw punches?


My TKD expirence is in WTF, in which I only rank yellow. However, I remember that punching was the first thing taught. Even before front kick and roundhouse kick. And all the sparring we did from white - black had a go amount of punching. Most of the matches in my school was , kicking when far away and punching in close. I have had training partners from ITF and ATA TKD and they had similiar training.

[Helm]

Well WTF has always had hand techniques, but since striking with hands was no longer a vaild technique to score a point with in competition, its rarely emphasysed enough in schools which concentrate on olympic sparring.

Having said that, its still a VERY good technique to use in sparring. My teacher teaches us old Korean style sparring (sparring to cause damage rather than points), and when someone is coming in close often you can knock them over with a solid punch to the top of the chest, even through the protector they feel it because of the small surface area of the fist, so rather than just clinching you can punch them several times.

This is especially good if your fighting someone whos always clinching, forcing them to fight a different way from how they like.

[WorldChampTKD]

Originally posted by Derrick
I guess my question is are all WTF students trained like this?

No, I dont know the reasoning behind the way that particular instructor teaches, but all WTF student arent trained like that. I'm a WTF student yellow belt and I throw punched in sparring, and get yelleed at if I dont. We're encouraged to use everything we learn and use it when we spar. :D Talk to ya later

[Edward Hsu]

As far as competitions, if they follow WTF rules then punching is really limited.Most are used as cover punches,others are used to 'wind' the opponent,punches are also used to help manuever your opponent.

Don't be discouraged,give it time.....

[Thomas]

Originally posted by Derrick

I guess my question is are all WTF students trained like this?

No. I agree with both comments by Edward Hsu. We train (WTF) with a lot of hand drills and techniques. We use them for self defence and for various types of sparring.

On the other hand, in WTF COMPETITION, hand strikes are very limited and therefore not used as much. A school that focuses on competition style will naturally favor techniques that will serve them better in their goal. Our school is more self defence based, so we focus on techniques we will more apt to use... it really depends on the instructor, school goal, and students' expectations.

In class we do various types of sparring, ranging from no-contact to heavy contact. We sometimes allow all hand techniques and sometimes not. We try to practice the full range, not only for practicality, but also for adaptability and for interest.

[labeledas]

if you knock some one over with a punch they get a standing 8 count and you should get a point

[Edward Hsu]

Labelas said:


if you knock some one over with a punch they get a standing 8 count and you should get a point.....


Unfortunately this has never happened in any competition I have been to...at the Local, State, or National level.

[Shade]

Maybe it would if someone took on labeledas......he's 6'8'' and built like a brick s**t house. :D

[Taeho]

TKD= 70% foot techniques 30% hand

This is what we are taught. The 30% hand techniques used should at least be effective.

We also practice sparring -No hands sometimes, and other times -No feet. This helps us to realize just how important the Combination of the 2 are. (Normally) You have 4 limbs. It is only logical to use all weapons available to you. Excluding 50% of your available forces is bad combat technique in any battle.

TKDshane Ÿ

[neryo_tkd]

i teach WTF taekwondo and i don't neglect hands, nor does my instructor, but it depends how and when hands r used.

competitions...punches to the head are not allowed. u can use the hand to hit the body but u can aim ur leg towards the head and body. no kicks underneath the waist.

street fight....there r no rules here and therefore the students r taught many things they can't use at competitions.

self-defence...this is definitely part of our trainings. it's also requested at belt examinations.

[Poop-Loops]

I train WTF Tae Kwon Do, and if I lots of times (especially when fighitng against bigger guys), I just rush in there and punch punch punch. At that point they do the same, but I can usually block theirs. If I use my hands too much, and stop kicking, I get told to kick more, and punch less. (a kick hurts more anyway)

But like TKDShane, we mix up our sparring. Sometimes we'll box, and sometimes we'll count both kicks and punches as points (even to the head).

For step sparring and self-defence, we use arms way more. So far I've only learned one 1-step-sparring move that uses legs, and that's a knee strike to the face.

PL

[Capt Ann]

I train WTF (currently green belt), and

1. Our training includes a lot of hand strikes and elbow techniques. Proficiency in hand-techniques, including blocks, strikes, and breaks appropriate to each belt level, are required for advancement in rank.

2. "One-step sparing" (training specifically geared toward "street" self-defense) emphasizes hand moves all the way up through blue belt. After blue belt, self-defense techniques mix kicks, punches, drops, throws.

3. Yes, you CAN score points in competition with hand techniques. In competitive sparring, you are limited to close-fisted punches above the belt, below the neck, but they DO score. To score, a punch (or kick, for that matter) must demonstrate a "stunning blow" (i.e., the opponents body should jolt back from the impact). Because of this definition, it is easier to show a clear 'score' with a kick, especially since kicks to the head ARE legal (two-points for head-attack, vs one-point for body, and three-points for head-kick that drops opponent to ground). Punches can score alone, but the most common use I've seen for scoring is in combination: block, punch to throw opponent off balance, follow-through with kick.

[Kwan Jang]

-I know that when I fought at the USTU nationals a few years back, I dropped one guy with a body punch that had him down WAY over 10 seconds, but I recieved no point for it. I have heard that they are now changing the rules and going back towards the direction sport TKD was in the late 1970's and early 1980's. More of a full-contact fight and less of a speed game for points.
-As a martial art, it is VITAL to train in all ranges and be well rounded. TKD like most systems have this w/in the system, but many instructors don't emphasize this.
-Our schools have now evolved to mma, but we came from a WTF-base and I still hold a 5th dan with them. We always trained hands and feet on a pretty equal basis. We also put heavy emphasis on trapping and grappling for self-defense, even back in the day. It never hurt us in competition either. We have had several medal winners from the WTF World championships and the Olympics, let alone nationals and Jr. Olympics over the years. With those who wanted to fight in sport TKD competition, we just modified from our base. Kind of compartimentalized, and would limit what strikes we would use when getting ready for a competition. However, in regular classes and belt exams, they sparred and were tested along our normal standards.

[neryo_tkd]

Originally posted by Kwan Jang
-I know that when I fought at the USTU nationals a few years back, I dropped one guy with a body punch that had him down WAY over 10 seconds, but I recieved no point for it.

no point? weird!

a friend of mine uses body punches every now and then and when he does it properly, the way u described it, he always got a point.

don't forget the judges! maybe if there had been another judge, u would have gotten a point! who knows?!

[Edward Hsu]

No it wouldn't matter if there were different refs...it's based on a three judge system that's all computerized,2 ref's have to press the same color button to score a point,however I have never seen a point ever scored on a punch.I also don't believe with the new rules that will never ever change.

[neryo_tkd]

it does matter. yes, there are 3 refs, and they are also human and they do make mistakes. i've seen it first hand. once i hit my opponent with sewo chagi and two refs pressed the button. the third didn't because he said that i had hit her with my elbow ha ha ha

for a proper body punch, u get and should get one point. my friend, whom i mentioned in my earlier post, got three points that way in only one fight. all three of them were really good strong punches. he earned his points fairly.

[Chris.B]

Originally posted by TKDshane
TKD= 70% foot techniques 30% hand

This is what we are taught. The 30% hand techniques used should at least be effective.

We also practice sparring -No hands sometimes, and other times -No feet. This helps us to realize just how important the Combination of the 2 are. (Normally) You have 4 limbs. It is only logical to use all weapons available to you. Excluding 50% of your available forces is bad combat technique in any battle.

TKDshane Ÿ

It's more like 85% kicking, and I got this information from the coach of Canada's representitive :D

[neryo_tkd]

TKDshane explained the situation at his school. there are differences, of course. one has to keep in mind the difference between training sessions and competitions as well.

[Edward Hsu]

Neryo_TKd:

'for a proper body punch, u get and should get one point. my friend, whom i mentioned in my earlier post, got three points that way in only one fight. all three of them were really good strong punches. he earned his points fairly'

Was this a WTF/USTU competition?I have never seen a point scored for a punch at the State, National or International level...whether or not it should be scored is another issue

[neryo_tkd]

Originally posted by Edward Hsu
Was this a WTF/USTU competition?

It was an open championship WTF TKD in Europe

[Poop-Loops]

Yeah, the black belt at our school went to 2 world championships, and he says he's scored a bit from body punches.

PL

[Mifune]

Back to the original point about using hand techniques for self-defence - they are vital. Once an assailant gets inside your kicking range you need your hands/elbows for your close-range defence.

Rather than having to step back to try to get a kick in in this situation, hand combinations are good for getting your opponent on the back foot so you have room to move back in with a kick.

Hand techniques are also a god follow up to a kick when you step down with your kicking foot close in to your opponent.

We do a lot of drills with combinations of hand and feet techniques and apply these to sparring.

We're not WTF, though, and don't do any tournament sparring. It seems as though some schools train specifically for tournament sparring whereas we use it more for making all your skills work together (combinations, footwork, speed, defence, etc) and for a good old workout.

[Lippy]

Yup, you definately get a point for a strong body punch when in WTF competition as long as you "stagger" your opponent.
It's gotta be a good 'un though!!

[TigerGrishkin]

By not practicing everything as though the consequence of a mistake is a knockout, rather than a point against you...

By not including at least some form of clinch fighting...

By encouraging people to sacrifice basic structure and stability to make reckless attacks that would only work in a point-fighting venue...

...you sacrifice your art's applicability to self-defense.

I've seen so many WTF Tae Kwon Do people who simply turn their backs on opponents when they lose control of the fight.

Take a very close look at what you're learning.

[marco]

Derrick, your observations are spot-on, most WTF fighters wouldn't know what to do with their hands if their lives depended on it. I have a 2nd degree in ITF and 3rd degree WTF and it seems to be a particularly nasty habit with the WTF.

TKD punching is not a natural movement. How many people sparring do you see using the TKD punches and blocks ? Even Bruce Lee reckoned western boxing was the most natural style for the hands and he was a Wing Chun master !!!

It's not a problem for me as I was brought up with a boxing background, but gave up tournaments in TKD early due to the many disqualifications for hand contact. These guys just didn't bother to use hands at all and got chinned.

The ITF guys weren't a whole lot better by the way but they aren't totally committed to the sport side so were more aware.

Sorry guys, just my observations.

[stratiotes]

Taekwondo in a real fight can work, depends on how you use it. If you only use tkd and use it as if you are sparring, you'll be killed. On the other hand, if you are smart, try your best to keep your distance, and use only moves that you know will work (no spinning twirly kicks that may or may not hit their target). If all you know is tkd techniques and you get taken to the ground, well you're screwed but if you make sure you don't get taken to the ground you can put up a good fight..

I've never been in a real street fight where my life is on the line, however i've been in some no holds barred fighting with friends, and they have more grappling experience, and no tkd, and i'm the opposite.
A roundkick to their thigh can really affect the fight in them, esp if you get both legs.

Think muay thai.

[jms969]

Frankly most "street" fights end up on the ground nearly immediately. If pure self defense is what you are looking for then Hapkido is an excellent choice.

I do have training in both WTF and ITF styles and from my experience WTF is much more oriented toward Olympic sparing while ITF is a bit less sparring oriented and a little more self defense oriented...

But bottom line is get some grappling experience to round out your tkd training...

IMHO

JMS

[Poop-Loops]

Verses multiple attackers that wouldn't be good.

TKD teaches you to fight at a distance. You're not supposed to let your attacker get that close in the first place. Whether that happens or not is up to you and your training.

PL

[Mike Flanagan]

Originally posted by Derrick
Our instructor is always talking about TKD for self defense. I'm sure there are aspects of it that would come in handy in a fight (fitness, flexibility, etc) but in all honesty most actual fights or assults happen right up close. Much too close to throw a kick at someone. (more likely a knee or headbutt).
L

I think you've hit the nail right on the head in that one statement. That's how most violent confrontations are. So if you're system doesn't prepare you for that scenario then it ain't teaching self-defence in my opinion. This is a real problem not just with TKD but also with many of the standing up striking arts. TKD perhaps personifies the problem even more so because of the reliance on large and high kicking techniques.

Mike

[Thomas]

Originally posted by Mike Flanagan
I think you've hit the nail right on the head in that one statement. That's how most violent confrontations are. So if you're system doesn't prepare you for that scenario then it ain't teaching self-defence in my opinion. This is a real problem not just with TKD but also with many of the standing up striking arts. TKD perhaps personifies the problem even more so because of the reliance on large and high kicking techniques.

Mike

I agree with you, but a good instructor can address this in class. Any student of TKD must train to defend at different ranges and using all physical weapons. Check out the "step sparring" thread http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=7514 ... it gives a good description of how my school addresses this through step sparring. Also keep in mind that when working self defence, it's necessary to add resistance and to see where the techniques end up naturally and practice responses to that as well.

[inanimate]

I would say that TKD isn't that useful in real life situations, but I don't mind since I do it simply because I enjoy it. I'd think that in a real life situation self defence is the delicate art of smashing another man's head in with a brick.
That is just my opinion though :D

[kickcatcher]

It’s not just the kicking ethos that limits typical TKD for self defence. It’s the lack of mental pressure training. Doing a one-step, however realistic the technique, in a controlled manner against a compliant opponent is only vaguely more useful than doing an outlandishly flamboyant technique in the same manner. It’s not just what you train, it’s how you train it.

[clemsontkd]

Our club goes to WTF competitions and our style resembles WTF but we work on all techniques. Hand, foot, elbow, and knee. I remember for one class we worked on close range fighting. We got in our opponents face and didnt strike but grabbed and pushed and they had to defend themselves with soft contact strikes, grabs and take downs. That was fun, except for when i got paired up with the 250 pound Red w/ Black stripe belt student. Now for reference i weigh 130 pounds on a good day. Yea that was funny. We also put ourselves in other situations than self defense such as we gotta knock something down to get past a fire. I think our style is effective for self defense. Competitions are optional so our instructor sets up extra sessions to work on sparring more so during normal class we work on everything.

[Handsup]

I have experince in boxing training and ITF tkd....

the way i approach a street situation is by BEIGN CALM. if you can remember to be CALM in ANY situation you are better able to THINK ( no matter what style of MA you do). In our world when we get faced with a ANGRY confronting person who is just about to swing WILDLY and hope something lands on your chin and knocks you out and makes him look like a toughie, we have to stay CALM and start THINKING

you NEVA see PILOTS panicking when something goes wrong in an aeroplane...they are trained for this ..

similarly as MAtist...i believe we should do more for ourselves ....for eg...learn ..TEACH URSELF how to RELAX and be calm in a threatning situation....as the great BRUCE LEE said .." its difficult for rehearsed rhythm to fit in with broken rhythm"-stands very true.

street fights are BROKEN in rhytm....we have to ADAPT...and we can only do that if we are CALM under pressure ...and remove FEAR

I beleieve ANY MA has the potential to be applied to self defense situations
...HOW u apply is another story

My advice to you would be if your not happy with the tkd training you aregetting and still wish to remain in tkd to privately work on creating a street situation ( preferrably with another partner ) and get this partner to throw ( slowly at first) wild punches !

after initial period get him to throw wild punches faster and faster.

Your job is to bloock ( like a kung fu fighter...that is quick FLEXIBLE blocks ...not like tkd and rigid) and weave those punches and set ur self up to DEFEND .....

i do this ...and it works for me fine ....i LOVE tkd....and i appreciate its weaknesses ....but i try my best to eliminate it for my self...

goodluck

[ratman]

this is funny http://www.m90.org/view_image.php?image_id=6084

[pulp fiction]

I do think that TKD can be applied to a real life situation.

When we are sparring in class I throw punches instead on clinching, to the upper part of the chest guard. They don't expect it.

I think it's good that instructors teach how to use all the weapons of the body. Someday it might save your life.

Another thing that should be taught at every dojang is to have a good guard, arms that hang at the sides of the body are an open invitation for a KO.

I like WTF sparring and tournaments, but how you apply the techniques that you learn is up to you.

[NaughtyKnight]

Non of this it "can".

It is if taught properly. Just because you have different teachers, doesnt make the style as a whole different.

TKD is a fine for self defence when taught properly, the a large amount of the schools nowerdays (especially wtf) are sport.

If you want selfdefence, then find a school with a selfdefence curiculum.

I do TKD as a sport, so I dont really care if I could use it in a fight (which I have only done once). I'm not exactly new when it comes to fights, so I know what works and what doesnt. Being able to rip someones kneecap out with a kick is always useful.

Make sure you atleast punch if you want some selfdefence training. Kicking is not fighting. Its a part of fighting. However, you look back at all the fights you were in. How many had people kicking you in the head? Not many. Not many people can kick above their waist. LEARN TO PUNCH!

[Leo_E_49]

I have personally thrown punches in a WTF tournament to my opponent's torso and was NOT disqualified. We teach punching in my Dojang from whitebelt.

[neryo_tkd]

I have personally thrown punches in a WTF tournament to my opponent's torso and was NOT disqualified. We teach punching in my Dojang from whitebelt.

why would you be disqualified? if you don't punch hard, you don't get a point and that's it. to get diqualified, no way.

[NaughtyKnight]

You are allowed to punch to the torso in WTF, full contact. In fact, you raley get a point unless they are forse back by the punch.

When I was talking about punching Leo, I was talking about head punches. If you reall want SD then you should be trained to not panic when someone is trying to cave your face in with a good punch.

For sport, punching to the head is not really needed, though it would make it more fun. :D

[Smokemare]

Personally I think the trouble with these debates on SD, is that there is always an arguement that X isn't effective enough for SD. Everything you do gives you a bonus of course - this is the trouble. Also there's a tendancy amongst MA to see themselves in a SD situation, as basically streetfighting somebody into submission, injury or death. Really SD would be more - quickly incapacitate your opponent, then run like hell. You'd run into less legal problems this way.

Personally I practise TKD punches in the forms and when doing destruction, but never when sparring. Yes they are powerful, (I'm ITF by the way, I don't know what WTF punches are like.) the trouble is they are impractical, leave you open and traditional stances are awkward to move around in.

When sparring I don't use the traditional stances out of the forms - they are too restrictive to your movement. I use jabs, straight boxing punches and hooks for punches. I also use a few backfists when the oppurtunity is there. I don't use many spinning kicks, and I don't use many high kicks. I try and treat it as somewhere between fighting and sparring, but within the rules of sparring. It would be better practise to have a full-contact, no holds barred fight with somebody but I don't really want to go that far.

It's a bit like betting really, depending on where you live and what your lifestyle and personality are like the odds of you having to fight somebody - are rather different. The amount of time, effort and thought you put into your training are the size of your wager. If you get green belt in WTF and watch a few Bruce Lee movies - you haven't really invested alot so you won't win much, maybe get a couple of lucky shots in before you get battered.

If you get black belts in TKD, Kung Fu and Hapkido, then learn Muay Thai and have two dozen professional fights, then go on a mission to pick street fights and learn as many dirty street tactics as possible, then you will be very well prepared for when you are forced to fight and you could win big.

But are you willing to make that investment? I'm not personally I hate grappling, but I like boxing techniques, so I've gone someway to complimenting my TKD.