Medieval Dagger

[Louie]

I've started this thread as a guide and interpretation of medieval dagger techniques.... Feel free to add your own interpretation, comments or pictures!!!!

The first example is an unarmed defence against a thrust to the stomach, the defender has side-stepped & grabbed the wrist, twisted the arm and is about to employ a joint lock on the elbow... while the foot is in place to trip or sweep....

Louie

[Polar Bear]

What date is the picture from Louie?

I'm sure Koyo will name that Aikido technique in one.

The Bear.

[koyo]

Aikido technique is ura ikkyo. Judo technique is o uchi gari.And here is a picture of it.Added bonus is that is Chris about to be dumped. So do not say I am not kind to you bear. :D

Comment. The wrist should be twisted so that the kisaki (point) does not point toward the defender.I also find it more effective if the right hand grasps gyaku (reverse) palm up.
regards koyo

[Stolenbjorn]

Is it a straight arm on the pic you added, koyo? I'm not sure, as the resolution is a little blurry on my computer... If it is a straight arm, you press him to the ground by pressing on his elbow, right? Either the elbow breaks, and/or he goes down, right? That is shown in Fiores system, but as the opponent have grabbed your hair/neck/shoulder, and have a straight elbow.

If the victim bends his elbow as a counter (as shown on the first pic), you can allso push the elbow forewards, pulling the victims hand onto his back, whic his called an "underkey" in the Fiore system.

Depending on how the arm is actually held in that picture, you could allso try to go the opposite way, resulting in what Fiore would call an "upper key", bending his arm upwards and backwards.

[koyo]

The technique is a kaeshe waza (alternate technique) he had attempted to resist the pin/throw hence the turn and sweep. A bit like creating a technique from a "bind". As you say there are many possibilities from this kuzushi (unbalncing point). I recognise those you describe and would use them relative to any attempt of movement in the opponent.


regards koyo

Comment
His arm had been bent at the point seen in the photo I am straightening it for more control on the ground.

[Louie]

What date is the picture from Louie?

I'm sure Koyo will name that Aikido technique in one.

The Bear.

Hi PB

Not sure of the date exactly, I don't have the full manuscript on this particular medieval manual. I would assume it's probably 14th-15th C (?).

Louie

[Stolenbjorn]

Hi PB

Not sure of the date exactly, I don't have the full manuscript on this particular medieval manual. I would assume it's probably 14th-15th C (?).

LouieIdentical technique is depictured in Fior di Battaglia from 1410, allthough this speciffic picture is not from Fior di Battaglia or Floss Duellatorum.

[Kogusoku]

I've started this thread as a guide and interpretation of medieval dagger techniques.... Feel free to add your own interpretation, comments or pictures!!!!

The first example is an unarmed defence against a thrust to the stomach, the defender has side-stepped & grabbed the wrist, twisted the arm and is about to employ a joint lock on the elbow... while the foot is in place to trip or sweep....

Louie

You'll find that technique in Japanese koryu jujutsu like Takeuchi-ryu and in a couple of it's offshoots, Sosuishi-ryu and Hontai Yoshin-ryu. Feudal ryuha from the warring states period.

[slipthejab]

Fascinating thread guys. A meeting of the western and eastern ways. Well done. Absolutely fascinating. Looking forward to more your postings in this thread. :)

[Louie]

Fascinating thread guys. A meeting of the western and eastern ways. Well done. Absolutely fascinating. Looking forward to more your postings in this thread. :)

Cheers Slipthejab!!!!

Moving on to a Figure-4 armlock against a point-down knife attack - the defender is unarmed in this case, catching the wrist with his right hand, turning it back towards the opponent and slipping the other arm between the joint to form the figure-4 lock. If he continues to force the arm back the opponent should fall and/or dislocate his arm!
(Watch out for your opponents left arm as he may try to hit you or attempt a counter!)

Louie

[Louie]

Same Figure-4 armlock against a point-down knife attack - but this time the defender is armed, locking the opponents knife with his own, turning it back towards the opponent and slipping the other arm between the joint to form the figure-4 lock.
(This particular 'dagger locking' technique requires rather large blades and would be difficult to perform with today's razor sharp cutlery without slicing your fingers!)

Louie

[Louie]

Last on this technique is a demonstration of how the Figure-4 armlock should look (and a medieval guide to how you would practice it without a partner)

Louie

[koyo]

Hi Louie

I think the most important element in knife control is the alignment of the body and the decisiveness of the technique.The form of aikido we train in demands that EVERY technique is applied as though a knife may be invoved, even if we cannot see it.

Below the triangular entry to an overhead strike (knife) The right hand drives an atemi under his reaction to defend his face. This pre-empts a strike with his "free" hand. You can see how the technique you describe can be applied.Incedently this is similar to the technique stolenbjorn describes as upper key in his post.

regards koyo

Just noticed figure four he is open to o uchi gari (inside leg reap)
figure five Osoto gari (outside leg reap) as bear says nothing knew under the sun (or something like that)

[Polar Bear]

This thread is demonstrating the close similarites between EMA and WMA. I think it shows the ridiculousness of the style-bashers out there, two systems independantly developed with such staggering similarities, we can only assume that both systems were based on tried and tested martial strategies.

The Bear.

[Stolenbjorn]

What louie describes as a figure 4 armlock is allso shown in Fior di battaglia. Allthough this exact position is shown, there is shown 5 variations on the same theeme, where one of them is practically identical, the left hand rests on the wrist of the right arm instead of in the armpit, as it seems to do on the picture.

[koyo]

WE use another major principle in knife control and that is to turn the knife against the attacker. This is possible with only a slight adjustment in almost all of the techniques. Is this common in other schools?.


regards koyo

[Stolenbjorn]

WE use another major principle in knife control and that is to turn the knife against the attacker. This is possible with only a slight adjustment in almost all of the techniques. Is this common in other schools?.


regards koyo
Yes, both to stab his own biceps and his own guts :D
Fiore even have a funny (and for once a relatively unharmful) one, where he instead of stabbing the victim, leads the arm between the vitims legs, turns and lifts so he either gets his balls mushed or is forced to do a forewards flick :love: http://fiore.the-exiles.org/fioreimages/getty/g20v_1.jpg

[koyo]

My eyes are still watering from Stolenbjorn's last post. :cry:
I realise that these are drawings and may have been drawn by one who does not train against a knife but we have a principle...the kiskai (point) of the knife points at you ONCE (when he is attacking)Ever after it points toward the attacker (once you have control) or away from you. In the drawings it looks quite dangerous.
One of the worse examples is in kote gaesh (wrist turning) The knife should be "turned where it lies" often the wrist is turned in a large circle (we never do this) which brings the knife dangerously close to the face of the defendant.
THis make sense.?

regards koyo

wrist turned where it lies.

[Louie]

My eyes are still watering from Stolenbjorn's last post. :cry:
I realise that these are drawings and may have been drawn by one who does not train against a knife but we have a principle...the kiskai (point) of the knife points at you ONCE (when he is attacking)Ever after it points toward the attacker (once you have control) or away from you. In the drawings it looks quite dangerous.

Hi Koyo.... Both Philipino and Indonesian MA have disarms with the blade pointing towards and away from you.... the majority of which can be seen in many of these medieval manuals.

This technique shown in Stolenbjorn's illustration - re-directing the blade arm between the opponents legs is also taught in Indonesian Silat - usually when the attacker stabs 'from above' with the knife in the point-down position.
With his right hand, the defender catches the opponents wrist & using the downward momentum re-directs the arm so that it travels between his opponents legs (or into his thigh). Stepping/turning behind the attacker he can switch to the left hand to catch the wrist and use the right hand to firmly grab the flat of the blade and push/press down, levering the blade out of his opponents fingers.

Louie

[Louie]

This Talhoffer illustration shows another disarm, this time using the left hand to catch the opponent on the inside of the wrist and using the back of your forearm against the flat of the blade to lever it out of his grip. (known as the 'Sheer')

The other illustration shows two basic guards/stances -
The 'hat' involves holding the grip and blade with both hands, using the edge to block.
The other is the 'doubtful thrust' hiding the weapon behind the body and potentially using either hand to strike!

Louie

[koyo]

Excellent stuff. I know a real sneaky version of the doubtfull thrust. In it the dagger is in the sheath the attacker suddenly thrusts forward and the defender defends..... but it is the sheath that has been used leaving him vulnerable to the true attack which comes from the dagger.Sheath comes high to the eyes and the dagger low to the abdomen.
Now back to re-reading the posts.

regards koyo

[Louie]

Excellent stuff. I know a real sneaky version of the doubtfull thrust. In it the dagger is in the sheath the attacker suddenly thrusts forward and the defender defends..... but it is the sheath that has been used leaving him vulnerable to the true attack which comes from the dagger.Sheath comes high to the eyes and the dagger low to the abdomen.
Now back to re-reading the posts.

regards koyo

Hi Koyo... :D

Early 1700's Scottish sword master Donald MacBain wrote a great biog/instruction book in which he suggests using both the sword & sheath along with other handy tips like keeping some dirt/dust in your pocket to blind your opponent if he pulls a pistol on you!!!

It's been re=printed in this book along with a few other Scots master's works

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Highland-Swordsmanship-Mark-Rector/dp/1891448153/ref=pd_bxgy_b_text_b/203-0833559-6770332

Louie

[Langenschwert]

I just wanted to say that I'm really enjoying this thread. I don't know that much about dagger stuff... just a smattering of techniques. Keep them coming, I'm learning lots. :)

Best regards,

-Mark

[Louie]

I just wanted to say that I'm really enjoying this thread. I don't know that much about dagger stuff... just a smattering of techniques. Keep them coming, I'm learning lots. :)

Best regards,

-Mark

Hi Mark, yes we've got off to a good start :D

Ok, next is how to use 'the hat' guard (see the previous illustration)
Illustration 1 shows the guard successfully blocking a downward blow...
Illustration 2 shows the guard being used against a thrust - but as a result of being too slow, not being aware of distance or not being forcefull enough - the attack has got through and pierced the defenders stomach!!!

Using this guard vertically can also block slashing attacks coming in from the sides.....

An old video clip of me and fellow MAP member "teacher" doing a bit of 'knife sparring' in which I use 'The Hat' can be found at: http://stickfighting.tripod.com/id1.html

Louie

[koyo]

Hi Louie

One of our major principles is to use mobility and body alignment so if we were to use the hat we would also take our body off of the line of attack. Our training is against the possibility of an unexpected attack so we always emphasise "defending" by taking our body out of line. During your video I saw you do this a couple of times.
An example of the hat could be our cutting down into a knife thrust but again as we are unarmed we would emphsise taking our body off line.

regards koyo
really enjoying this exchange.

[Louie]

Our training is against the possibility of an unexpected attack so we always emphasise "defending" by taking our body out of line. During your video I saw you do this a couple of times.

Hi Koyo...

Yes, I think it would be a natural instinct to move the body off-line and it can be seen in other talhoffer techniques including counters to the Hat, perhaps these particular illustrations represented a situation on a crowded battlefield in which there's no room to move?
The following illustration shows the defender moving off-line with a possible back-sweep to the leg....

Louie

[Kogusoku]

Great thread guys.

[koyo]

POst 26 is spot on if you place a jo (stick) in the hands of the swordsman. Again we can see identical principles in play.

regards koyo

[Louie]

One method to counter the hat:
The first illustration shows that the defender has raised the hat guard to block a point-down stab but the attacker has used this as a feint, reversed his arm so that the point is upward - the blade slashing down across the defenders face.

The second illustration is a continuation of the counter as the attacker steps through, locking his dagger against the defenders wrist while trapping the defender's dagger tight between his arm and chest. He then uses his left hand to push the elbow into an armlock!
Possibly adding a leg sweep.....?

Louie

[Gajah Silat]

Hi Koyo.... Both Philipino and Indonesian MA have disarms with the blade pointing towards and away from you.... the majority of which can be seen in many of these medieval manuals.

This technique shown in Stolenbjorn's illustration - re-directing the blade arm between the opponents legs is also taught in Indonesian Silat - usually when the attacker stabs 'from above' with the knife in the point-down position.
With his right hand, the defender catches the opponents wrist & using the downward momentum re-directs the arm so that it travels between his opponents legs (or into his thigh). Stepping/turning behind the attacker he can switch to the left hand to catch the wrist and use the right hand to firmly grab the flat of the blade and push/press down, levering the blade out of his opponents fingers.

Louie

Absolutely Louie,

All these techniques are very familiar. Redirecting the blade and stepping behind the attacker is classic silat :) The last one is begging for a sweep or sapu as we'd say.

Liking the downward pointing daggers, or hell grip as I like to say (hell down/ heaven up)

Loving the pics, keep 'em coming :)

Any links to some information regarding the actual daggers?

Cheers

[koyo]

NOW WE HAVE SOMEONE FROM A SILAT BACKGROUND. WISH ALL THE THREADS WERE LIKE THIS ONE.

Regards koyo

[Louie]

Any links to some information regarding the actual daggers?

Cheers

Hi Gajah.... Appreciate your input ;)

The medieval dagger that features in the post # 11 / 12 is a Bollock Dagger, have you ever had a bollocking? Well this is where the saying comes from. The Famous Bollock or kidney shaped Dagger is found in a variety of forms from the 1300's evolving through the Dudgeon dagger 16th 17th centuries into the present day Scottish dirk.
Size of the blade is between 9 - 12 inches

Louie

[Louie]

The rondel dagger derives its name, subtly enough, from the “rondels” or discs that serve as both a guard and pommel (early examples, sometimes had spherical pommels, but this was uncommon by the mid-15th century). The two discs serve to “lock” the dagger tightly into the wielder’s grip, particularly when wearing armoured gauntlets. This locked grip allowed the wielder to strike with great force, particularly in an overhand grip, emphasizing the dagger’s principle role of punching through mail and the articulations of plate armour.

An article on these weapons can be found at:
http://www.myarmoury.com/feature_spot_rondel.html

[Louie]

Going a bit forward in time to 1674.... Petter's manual is pretty 'JKD' direct, with a straight blast to the face before your opponent get a chance to draw his knife.... ;)

OH! and he's trapping the opponents foot as well......

Louie

[Louie]

Petter's 1674 (He described the techniques as old) solution to a knife attack was in every 1960/70 karate/self-defence manual I can remember, I'm sure in the right conditions with a pair of hardwood shoes it will work :D

Louie

[koyo]

WEll you have just anticipated my next question. We train in weapons principle to enhance our unarmed techniques.The saying is we should "flow between" empty hand and weapons. Also that even when unarmed we should "fence" an attacker. Do you have similar concepts.

regards koyo

[Stolenbjorn]

[B]One method to counter the hat:
The first illustration shows that the defender has raised the hat guard to block a point-down stab but the attacker has used this as a feint, reversed his arm so that the point is upward - the blade slashing down across the defenders face.I think Ringeck uses the same as you describe here, but in addition (or extention) of the technique, he puts his right wrist under the opponent's right wrist, puts his left arm in to get a 2 vs. 1 situation, bends up and disarms the opponent.

[koyo]

Going a bit forward in time to 1674.... Petter's manual is pretty 'JKD' direct, with a straight blast to the face before your opponent get a chance to draw his knife.... ;)

OH! and he's trapping the opponents foot as well......

Louie

Oh you beat me by three minutes. Classic stuff.
Oh and he is using triangular entry.

regards koyo

[Kogusoku]

Going a bit forward in time to 1674.... Petter's manual is pretty 'JKD' direct, with a straight blast to the face before your opponent get a chance to draw his knife.... ;)

OH! and he's trapping the opponents foot as well......

Louie

Awesome, similar concepts and principles are prevalent in some of the CJMA I train in too. Instead of punching though, to make sure the exponent's hands are still functional, (You can't really hold a sword with broken knuckles - Broke one of mine earlier this year, so I know.) open hand strikes like a web hand to the trachea or a palm to the chin are applied. The other hand would be covering the enemy's sword hand as well, just in case.

[Louie]

WEll you have just anticipated my next question. We train in weapons principle to enhance our unarmed techniques.The saying is we should "flow between" empty hand and weapons. Also that even when unarmed we should "fence" an attacker. Do you have similar concepts.


Hi Koyo...

I can't say that I've read specific instructions regarding using the same empty hand/weapons techniques, but illustrations of similar armed/unarmed techniques particularily in Fiori's Italian manual, suggest that Western forms of martial arts developed the same concept.

Boxing is supposed to have developed from fencing, the early 'prize' boxers in the 1600-1700's had to fight each round with a different weapon, often staff, sword & cudgels before moving on to fists. One description that comes to mind refers to the rear hand being mainly used like a buckler (a small shield used for blocking and attacking) so I would assume the lead hand was used like a sword & the footwork was based on the broadsword/backsword methods of the time.

Louie

[Louie]

Talhoffer again...

Back to the basic wrist lock - catching the attackers point-down stab with the left hand & twisting it back, with the flat of the blade against the back of the forearm..... meanwhile stepping through, sweeping the lead leg and stabbing the attackers chest!

Louie

[boards]

Hi Koyo...

I can't say that I've read specific instructions regarding using the same empty hand/weapons techniques, but illustrations of similar armed/unarmed techniques particularily in Fiori's Italian manual, suggest that Western forms of martial arts developed the same concept.

Boxing is supposed to have developed from fencing, the early 'prize' boxers in the 1600-1700's had to fight each round with a different weapon, often staff, sword & cudgels before moving on to fists. One description that comes to mind refers to the rear hand being mainly used like a buckler (a small shield used for blocking and attacking) so I would assume the lead hand was used like a sword & the footwork was based on the broadsword/backsword methods of the time.

Louie

Isn't the idea with Fiori at least (and most other medieval masters) that unarmed wrestling is the foundation, and that techniques in dagger and swords flow on from there, hence the huge amount of wrestling that takes place in weapons work.

[Stolenbjorn]

Isn't the idea with Fiori at least (and most other medieval masters) that unarmed wrestling is the foundation, and that techniques in dagger and swords flow on from there, hence the huge amount of wrestling that takes place in weapons work.Yes. It is most obvious in Fiore, at least. IMHO it's in many ways a very pedagogical approach to fighting.

When it comes to the huge amount of wresteling in the weapons work in Fiore, It could be for 3 reasons:

A: Because Fiore was a huge fella, good at wresteling. For a strong and heavy person, beeing able to "shoot" the opponent, seize the centre, then throw, break, disarm is a very effective approach. The fact tha Fiore actually states in his prelude that in order to be a good fighter, you need to be big and strong, supports this theory.

B: Because most people -in war, at least in Europe were so armed that cutting and thrusting rarely inflicted much damage, but throwing/breaking/dislocating works allmost as efficiantly vs. a dude in full harness, as vs. a dude unarmed.

C: Because Unarmed and armed actually is "two sides of the same case" (as we say in Norway), and that it's easier (and safer) to drill in principles unarmed, then moving to weapons than to start with weaponry. The fact that Fiore's manual was made when he was an old man, meant to be a guide to later generations of the Marqi of Ferraras knights, and/or his allies after Fiore was dead, supports this wiew.

It could of course allso be all A, B and C :)

[Gajah Silat]

Thanks for the info Louie :)

I have a similar sized dagger which seems more natural in the downward grip and it's quite heavy. Of course then the weight of the dagger (and gauntlet) gives more power and impact to punch through.

The downward grip can be used in a hooking manner too. For instance we would also slice up diagonally from the waist to the throat and then hook downward behind the neck.

Going a bit forward in time to 1674.... Petter's manual is pretty 'JKD' direct, with a straight blast to the face before your opponent get a chance to draw his knife.... ;)

OH! and he's trapping the opponents foot as well......

Louie

Standing fist to the face and stepping on the foot at the same time, sure to offbalance. Nice.

[warriorofanart]

Hi,

Quick question, how can you reverse your hold on a dagger? and "flip" it back?

For example your holding the blade in the "normal fashion" blade toward your partner, and you wanted to reverse it so you can do a forearm slash, or upward cut, or to block. I've read you "roll" the dagger on your fingers but I don't get it :confused:

[Louie]

Hi,

Quick question, how can you reverse your hold on a dagger? and "flip" it back?

For example your holding the blade in the "normal fashion" blade toward your partner, and you wanted to reverse it so you can do a forearm slash, or upward cut, or to block. I've read you "roll" the dagger on your fingers but I don't get it :confused:

I take it you mean switching from the normal point-up to the point-down 'icepick' position.... :rolleyes:

Rolling the weapon on the fingers would depend on it's weight, pommel thickness, etc,. Practice rolling a pen from tip-up to tip-down using just your fingers ( moving it between your middle & fore-finger to make the switch) Then try it with a practice dagger before you risk your fingers ;)

Personally when changing grips I hold the weapon in the 'Hat' position - (See illustration) holding the blade with my left hand allows me to change my right hand grip without the risk of dropping the knife!

Louie

[Louie]

Talhoffer again...

A basic wrist lock/arm lock - this time catching the attacker's point-down stab with the left hand & twisting it back, the right arm comes under his elbow and with the dagger's pommel, hooks onto his arm to complete an arm lock.
meanwhile stepping through adds pressure to the lock - adding an inside sweep to the lead leg will send him to the floor!

Louie

[warriorofanart]

I take it you mean switching from the normal point-up to the point-down 'icepick' position.... :rolleyes:

Rolling the weapon on the fingers would depend on it's weight, pommel thickness, etc,. Practice rolling a pen from tip-up to tip-down using just your fingers ( moving it between your middle & fore-finger to make the switch) Then try it with a practice dagger before you risk your fingers ;)

Personally when changing grips I hold the weapon in the 'Hat' position - (See illustration) holding the blade with my left hand allows me to change my right hand grip without the risk of dropping the knife!

Louie

I tried flipping the blade in the air and catching it to switch , but it seemed too clumsy and slow, gripping the blade with two hands makes the switch much easier but I am trying to learn using only one hand.

Switching between middle and fore-finger is I take for lighter, and slimer blades so different kinds of blades require different "methods" to switch obviously. Thanks I was doing it completely wrong :p

[koyo]

I would listen to Louie. Switching the blade with one hand is a bit like twirling a gun. Looks good but is damn dangerous.

regards koyo

[Stolenbjorn]

Hi,

Quick question, how can you reverse your hold on a dagger? and "flip" it back?

For example your holding the blade in the "normal fashion" blade toward your partner, and you wanted to reverse it so you can do a forearm slash, or upward cut, or to block. I've read you "roll" the dagger on your fingers but I don't get it :confused:
I switch blade-grip when I'm disengaged, and you can do it while holding the tip with the left hand (no problem on a rondelldagger, especially if you're wearing gauntlets). Alternately, you can have your hand(s) on your back as you approach, so the enemy doesn't know which hand that will be holding the dagger, and which way it will be presented. Flipping from ice pick to "sword"-grip onehanded and while engaged is somthing I've never tried in sparring, actually.

[Stolenbjorn]

Talhoffer again...

A basic wrist lock/arm lock - this time catching the attacker's point-down stab with the left hand & twisting it back, the right arm comes under his elbow and with the dagger's pommel, hooks onto his arm to complete an arm lock.
meanwhile stepping through adds pressure to the lock - adding an inside sweep to the lead leg will send him to the floor!

LouieThis one is allso shown in Fiore, it's one of the 5 examples of upper keys that Colin Richards shows in his newest book on Fiore wresteling and dagger.

[koyo]

WE have techniques which hook the weapon onto the arm ,neck or leg. Below a version where the hand is trapped and the tsuka (pommel) hooks over to apply a lock. Really painfull.

regards koyo

[Stolenbjorn]

Fiore allso use hooks and locks that incorporates the dagger. The most violent one is this one (I allmost broke my girlfriends wrists, just demonstrating it slowly) http://fiore.the-exiles.org/fioreimages/getty/g16r_4.jpg

Here is one shown as a counter to a twohand block-attempt.
http://fiore.the-exiles.org/fioreimages/getty/g40r_3.jpg

[Louie]

WE have techniques which hook the weapon onto the arm ,neck or leg. Below a version where the hand is trapped and the tsuka (pommel) hooks over to apply a lock. Really painfull.

regards koyo

Hi Koyo....
Yes I've been caught with a few of those on the bone of the wrist while playing fall guy at seminars for my former 'sifu' -

Here's a medieval example of using a dagger to hook the leg....

Louie

[Stolenbjorn]

... and you all know what I'm about to post now:
Fiore allso shows this technique :D (He actually shows it in his short-stick-part, but as I wrote in the fan-thread there's a lot of crossovers in Fiores manual (this is pre-print, so why bother showing all weapons doing the same techniques...) http://fiore.the-exiles.org/fioreimages/getty/g10v_2.jpg

[Louie]

...
(this is pre-print, so why bother showing all weapons doing the same techniques...) http://fiore.the-exiles.org/fioreimages/getty/g10v_2.jpg

Hi Stolenbjorn...

I've posted your jpeg anyway :D as it has an interesting finger-thrusting method - aimed at the arteries (or in some Eastern methods, the knock-out pressure point meridians)

Louie

[Kogusoku]

Actually, it looks more like a web-hand strike to the trachea, which is just as (if not more) effective with that leg hook.

And damned if that technique that Louie's JPEG shows isn't in the system I train and teach in too. :D Omote gata do the technique armed and ura gata do it armed with a blade, just like that.

[koyo]

Using a jo you hook the forward leg and as you draw him off balance strike with the rear of the jo to his head. Would look just like the picture in post 56.
There are numerous technique for locking with the jo and I bet they all exist in longsword and dagger.
We also use the web hand strike in severe techniques to knock the attacker's head back if we have not unbalanced him correctly.
Similar techniques, I see a pattern developing here. :D


regards koyo

Locking the neck jo technique.

[Stolenbjorn]

koyo:
I didn't know that japaneese taught european half-swording with sticks :love:

Here's a picture of roughly the same, only in full harness and with longsword instead of sticks (From Fiore, of course; several others are far more competent in german systems than I, so I keep to what I seem to know best amongst us :cool: ):

http://www.thehaca.com/pdf/Dl25.jpg

[Kogusoku]

Looks familiar, Stolenbjorn.

[Louie]

Actually, it looks more like a web-hand strike to the trachea, .

Hi Kogusoku...
Yep, your absolutely right - web hand !!!
I think it's the Durer manuscript where I've seen finger-jab to the throat...
I'll look it out!!!

Louie

[Louie]

Another illustration from Talhoffer...

This time the defender uses the back of his forearm to deflect the attacker's thrust.... (Possibly including the use of the outer thigh to strike the inside leg to unbalance the attacker)

Louie

[Kogusoku]

Another illustration from Talhoffer...

This time the defender uses the back of his forearm to deflect the attacker's thrust.... (Possibly including the use of the outer thigh to strike the inside leg to unbalance the attacker)

Louie

Is it just me or is that left hand trapping or blocking the enemy's left leg from advancing?

[Polar Bear]

Yeah I notcied that too. The question is, is it a block? and do you block the leg before, after or at the same time as stabbing?

The Bear.

[Louie]

Is it just me or is that left hand trapping or blocking the enemy's left leg from advancing?

The defender doesn't appear to grip/press the leg - I would suggest he's 'monitoring' the position of his opponents leg should there be an attempt to kick or sweep his lead leg, before, during or just after the counter-thrust.....

Louie

[koyo]

Same deflection in a hand technique. If I had a knife the hilt would be in my left hand and the blade hidden along my forearm. The right hand misdirects his defence and the left turns the blade to strike the abdomen.

regards koyo

[Langenschwert]

the blade hidden along my forearm.

Damn straight. Don't let him know you've got a knife until after you've stuck him. ;)

Best regards,

-Mark

[Stolenbjorn]

Same deflection in a hand technique. If I had a knife the hilt would be in my left hand and the blade hidden along my forearm. The right hand misdirects his defence and the left turns the blade to strike the abdomen.

regards koyo
This is called an elbow-push in Fiore (see link: http://fiore.the-exiles.org/fioreimages/novati/pd07r_2.jpg )

The same is allso done pre-emptive and is exctremely effective:
You show your intent to do an icepick-thrust to your opponent with your right arm. As all his focus is on your decending dagger, he doesn't notice how your left arm sweeps up, catches his defence (his left arm) pulls it slightly, so his defence is turned aside, then your dagger hits his neck (See link: http://fiore.the-exiles.org/fioreimages/novati/pd08r_2.jpg and for the end-picture, this attached image: )

[koyo]

Same principle in hand technique blocking arm intercepted and used to unbalance him.
Pitty we could not all get together.What an exchange that would be. :D

regards koyo

[Louie]

Pitty we could not all get together.What an exchange that would be. :D
regards koyo

Hi Koyo...
Usually there's a Scottish MAP-MEET once a year (usually in Edinburgh) where fellow MAPPERS get together in a multi-style seminar :D

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Next illustration...
Here's another disarm you should all recognise, an over-the shoulder armbar!

Louie

[Louie]

Another variation on the over-the shoulder armbar technique, pulling your opponent into your dagger!!!

Louie

[Stolenbjorn]

Fiore allso shows this, he allso shows a counter, I'll post links to pictures when I have better time.

[koyo]

Straight elbow can allow him to strike with free hand or strangle. Best to bend the arm and take him over your hip.

regards koyo

[Kogusoku]

Straight elbow can allow him to strike with free hand or strangle. Best to bend the arm and take him over your hip.

regards koyo

Bill,

That all depends on how nicely you're putting on that joint lock. If the lock (Gyaku seoi-gatame in Jujutsu) is put on properly, the enemy should not be able to counter that easily. Also if he tries to move, break the floating ribs with your elbow and either flow to a different technique.

Since he's got a weapon, it's not a restraint. You're going to destroy that limb, not put him on his tip-toes.

[koyo]

Agreed. AS you say it is done in one motion or leads to another technique. Of course any technique done properly cannot be countered.

regards koyo
edit
Maybe I should have said I prefare this cos I am a short ass. :) Liked the breaking the rib. :)

[Louie]

Here's a dagger-locking technique - haven't seen this particular one in any oriental styles - have you? :confused:

The defender on the right jams his dagger between his opponents dagger and wrist then turns it back - wrapping his own blade around the attackers wrist and locking the knife.

The technique is only practical with large blades - and I would suggest, gauntlets!!!!

Louie

[Stolenbjorn]

Here's a dagger-locking technique - haven't seen this particular one in any oriental styles - have you? :confused:

The defender on the right jams his dagger between his opponents dagger and wrist then turns it back - wrapping his own blade around the attackers wrist and locking the knife.

The technique is only practical with large blades - and I would suggest, gauntlets!!!!

Louie
It would work on blunt rondells (three/four-sided blades) without the gauntlet.
This one is not shown in Fiore :ban: ;)

[Kogusoku]

Here's a dagger-locking technique - haven't seen this particular one in any oriental styles - have you? :confused:

Louie

Louie,

you know what I'm going to say mate.

Yes. ;)

[koyo]

We have a similar technique which is a counter to knife taking. We stab down with the knife and the opponent blocks the stab and as he grips the wrist we push our thrust deeper into his grasp cover his fingers with our free hand and turn the knife over his forearm aikidoka would recognise this as an application of nikkyo.

Again we have similar applications of techniques.

regards koyo

In the illustration if he were to grasp his own blade with his left hand and twist clockwise he could put pressure on the opponent to drop his blade.

[Stolenbjorn]

We have a similar technique which is a counter to knife taking. We stab down with the knife and the opponent blocks the stab and as he grips the wrist we push our thrust deeper into his grasp cover his fingers with our free hand and turn the knife over his forearm aikidoka would recognise this as an application of nikkyo.

Again we have similar applications of techniques.

regards koyo

In the illustration if he were to grasp his own blade with his left hand and twist clockwise he could put pressure on the opponent to drop his blade.
Somthing similar to what you describe here is shown in the Fiore Manual(s):
http://fiore.the-exiles.org/fioreimages/getty/g40r_3.jpg
Another variant is that instead of pinning the wrist(s), you stab the arm in the elbowpit as shown here:
http://fiore.the-exiles.org/fioreimages/getty/g13r_2.jpg

[Langenschwert]

My personal favourite, the Scissors:

http://www.thearma.org/Manuals/54.jpg

Best regards,

-Mark

[koyo]

I think we are doing the same things only the terminology is different. :D

regards koyo

[Stolenbjorn]

My personal favourite, the Scissors:

http://www.thearma.org/Manuals/54.jpg

Best regards,

-Mark
Fiore allso does this one.

[Kogusoku]

There are a couple of schools in classical Japanese martial arts (Ryugi bujutsu) that use similar techniques. Particularly hanbo/tanjo and tessenjutsu.

Note the first technique on this clip of Tenshin-ryu (http://youtube.com/watch?v=sUrw4nFxA1Y)

Owari Tenshin Koryu Kempo jojutsu (Hishigijutsu) (http://youtube.com/watch?v=hJKPkB2yub8)

[Louie]

Petter' s 1642 Manual again....

This time a wrist lock is applied to the attackers arm (who is holding the knife point-up), along with an inside sweep to the lead leg!

Louie

[Stolenbjorn]

The angle the drawer have chosen is somewhat different than the perspective the drawer(s) of the fiore manuals have used. But there are several techniques shown in Fiore that can work from this situation.

A straight armbar over the shoulder:
http://fiore.the-exiles.org/fioreimages/getty/g14r_4.jpg

-a straight armbar forcing him to the ground (Posta di Porto di Ferro); see pic:
http://fiore.the-exiles.org/fioreimages/getty/g15v_4.jpg

-an elbowpush, entering and throwing by his throat (posta longa):
http://fiore.the-exiles.org/fioreimages/getty/g15v_2.jpg

-or throw him with the other arm:
http://fiore.the-exiles.org/fioreimages/getty/g15v_3.jpg

-You could actually manage to get into this one as well, if you move your right hand to the attackers elbow, twisting it upwards, creating a lower key for you to enter, bending his arm to his back, like on this picture:
http://fiore.the-exiles.org/fioreimages/getty/g16r_1.jpg

[koyo]

Posta longa? LIke this?

regards koyo