Wing Chung VS Flashlock's Club, Super Slamdown!

[flashlock]

This Saturday several bluebelts (and me!) are going to spar a group of Wing Chung guys who want to test their skills at Melbourne Uni. It's just friendly, beer afterwards, but should be a lot of fun.

Any advice on fighting these guys. I imagine they sit back and do low kicks to keep the distance, and then straight blast with their chain punching when you over commit?

My plan is to be crouched low and move into them with a crazy monkey guard after/ during their flurries.

I've been told once they get on the ground, it's over almost instantly, so that, of course is the key.

[KempoFist]

This Saturday several bluebelts (and me!) are going to spar a group of Wing Chung guys who want to test their skills at Melbourne Uni. It's just friendly, beer afterwards, but should be a lot of fun.

Any advice on fighting these guys. I imagine they sit back and do low kicks to keep the distance, and then straight blast with their chain punching when you over commit?

My plan is to be crouched low and move into them with a crazy monkey guard after/ during their flurries.

I've been told once they get on the ground, it's over almost instantly, so that, of course is the key.

Crazy monkey is a good idea. I'd say throw out a feinting punch or two to get them to commit to a block/parry and then shoot in underneath.

Either that, or just simply get your guard up and walk towards them Halloween style and just grab them when you're close enough into a clinch. Basic under/overhooks into a leg reap should do the trick.

[Stevebjj]

BRAINSSSSsssss... zombie style. I would recommend that you avoid standing about 18 inches from them and hold your hands out. That's just inviting chi sao.

[EternalRage]

Study Emin vs Cheung.

Watch out for the bil jee.

Yeah, normally they try to establish a point of contact so they can do their sensitivity stuff and trapping. They'll throw kicks to the legs or do an entry to cover distance before going into close quarter, you could move to intercept as they come in.

[flashlock]

Crazy monkey is a good idea. I'd say throw out a feinting punch or two to get them to commit to a block/parry and then shoot in underneath.

Either that, or just simply get your guard up and walk towards them Halloween style and just grab them when you're close enough into a clinch. Basic under/overhooks into a leg reap should do the trick.

Thanks! I'll guess we'll see what happens...

[flashlock]

Study Emin vs Cheung.

Watch out for the bil jee.

Yeah, normally they try to establish a point of contact so they can do their sensitivity stuff and trapping. They'll throw kicks to the legs or do an entry to cover distance before going into close quarter, you could move to intercept as they come in.

Hm. So they want to be close, but not too close? I think that's easy to jam up and force into grappling range (?).

[RandomTriangle]

i LOVE sparring...

Since they're not going to be trying to "knock you out" try standing and trading with them.... Think "hooks."

I had a WC guy who had a good Straight blast, but i could bait him by moving towards him, backing away, moving towards, then when i go to back away i'd angle to my left while throwing left hooks... if you time it right... it is very good

Now... it terms of clinching there are 3 ways you should attempt.

1. If you know how to properly move while simultaneously punching, move in with a simple Jab, Cross, Hook... if your opponent blocks instead of moving away...instead of retracting your hook hand use it to clinch around your opponent's neck. Then your back hand can grab either the other side of your opponent's neck (i.e. a Thai clinch), your opponent's elbow (collar and elbow clinch), or just drop into a Body Lock/Single leg/ Double leg
Once that works once, you can then fake the strikes, and go immediately into the single. The KEY is to change the number of strikes you throw before you clinch...

So first go jab, cross, hook, clinch. The second time try something shorter like Jab clinch, or fake the jab clinch. Then try a long combination without trying to clinch... like jab cross jab cross (without a clinch attempt). then, etc. Just break the Rhythm.

2. If you know how to time an opponent’s movement... get them to move towards you. Move towards them 2 steps, then back away 2 steps, then move towards them 2 steps, then back away 1 step (then immediately) burst in towards them 10 steps (lol). When bursting in have a "helmet" on. (Palms above your eyebrows, ON your forehead, forearms rather close, chin down, shoulders up, muscles contracted, jaw contracted, etc...). Try not to move straight at them... pick a side so that they you are entering on an angle.

3. Learn how to slip, and bob. The easiest way to get inside on someone who is taller/longer is to move your head so your opponent's punch goes past your head. This makes it very easy to body lock/single leg your opponent.
Think Randy Couture vs. Tim Silvia, or Matt Serra Vs GSP...

3. is the hardest, but my favorite.

Once clinched make your body like dead weight. I’m a huge fan of striking from the clinch, but I’d simply work for the takedown. Think outside leg reap, same side leg reap, drop to a single, or double leg.

[EternalRage]

Hm. So they want to be close, but not too close? I think that's easy to jam up and force into grappling range (?).

Yep. Should be.

[flashlock]

i LOVE sparring...

Since they're not going to be trying to "knock you out" try standing and trading with them.... Think "hooks."

I had a WC guy who had a good Straight blast, but i could bait him by moving towards him, backing away, moving towards, then when i go to back away i'd angle to my left while throwing left hooks... if you time it right... it is very good

Now... it terms of clinching there are 3 ways you should attempt.

1. If you know how to properly move while simultaneously punching, move in with a simple Jab, Cross, Hook... if your opponent blocks instead of moving away...instead of retracting your hook hand use it to clinch around your opponent's neck. Then your back hand can grab either the other side of your opponent's neck (i.e. a Thai clinch), your opponent's elbow (collar and elbow clinch), or just drop into a Body Lock/Single leg/ Double leg
Once that works once, you can then fake the strikes, and go immediately into the single. The KEY is to change the number of strikes you throw before you clinch...

So first go jab, cross, hook, clinch. The second time try something shorter like Jab clinch, or fake the jab clinch. Then try a long combination without trying to clinch... like jab cross jab cross (without a clinch attempt). then, etc. Just break the Rhythm.

2. If you know how to time an opponent’s movement... get them to move towards you. Move towards them 2 steps, then back away 2 steps, then move towards them 2 steps, then back away 1 step (then immediately) burst in towards them 10 steps (lol). When bursting in have a "helmet" on. (Palms above your eyebrows, ON your forehead, forearms rather close, chin down, shoulders up, muscles contracted, jaw contracted, etc...). Try not to move straight at them... pick a side so that they you are entering on an angle.

3. Learn how to slip, and bob. The easiest way to get inside on someone who is taller/longer is to move your head so your opponent's punch goes past your head. This makes it very easy to body lock/single leg your opponent.
Think Randy Couture vs. Tim Silvia, or Matt Serra Vs GSP...

3. is the hardest, but my favorite.

Once clinched make your body like dead weight. I’m a huge fan of striking from the clinch, but I’d simply work for the takedown. Think outside leg reap, same side leg reap, drop to a single, or double leg.

You're more excited by this prospect than I am! :)

Great pointers, I've practiced some of those, but have been spending most of the time on my knees (and I'm not even talking about in the dojo :) )

I have all these options, but is WC as limited as it seems? I sparred with a WC guy who wandered into our club once. He had very good strikes, sharp. But once we got into clinch, it was pretty much over for him as we ended up on the ground (this was when I only had 2 months experience. Now I can role with blue belts for 3 minutes and half the time not get submitted [they still dominate though, of course!]).

I loved sparring with Rubber Tanto and his ninja friends, so this should be interesting vs WC guys!

Can't wait...

[forever young]

you should be able to murder them!!!! :D
seriously tho wing chun guys (like me ;) ) will try and close the gap to an effective range for them, which basically means they are going to play your game, i would recommend the 'helmet' idea as you will be able to take them into a clinch fairly easily while covering and once there grab and go for overs/unders and dragdowns, watch out for elbows (if not banned) and trips (altho again if they do simply keep hold of them as you go down ;) ) other than that i must admit when sparring with straight wing chun guys i murder them usually because of the range reason, this close range 'infighting' will pressure distance fighters as they cant get their space but grapplers will have had all the hard work done for them as the wc guy will press forward. i wouldnt recommend double legging them tho as they will be more likely to stuff the attempt simply keep high, enter clinch, take down and proceed to bitch slap while they spaz :D
just my o2

[EternalRage]

gasp... my sig is in your sig!

[forever young]

gasp... my sig is in your sig!
but i wear it better :)

[Satori81]

Try this out on Saturday.

1. Wait until the ref (or you just mutually agree) tells you to begin, then rush your opponent and immediately take it to the ground. Takedown defense is difficult without specifically training for it, so the chances are that he'll drop like a stone and you'll own him.

Once you've gotten that out of your system, try this...

2. Play his game, and let him own you in the trapping range. Don't clinch, grab, or do anything to nullify...let him feel good doing what his art does best, and swallow your pride and ego.

Afterwards, say, "Wow, you guys are fast!", and let your opponent keep a shred of his pride.

---

You aren't on a mission to prove to the world the superiority of BJJ, so keep your ego in check and try not to make it about YOU.

[Mitch]

So as long as it's not full contact (Since they're not going to be trying to "knock you out"), they're not doing all of their techniques (watch out for elbows (if not banned) ) and you rely on non BJJ techniques (move in with a simple Jab, Cross, Hook), you'll be absolutley fine!

Long live the alive and complete training of BJJ! :D

Mitch
OK, I'm kidding, I'm kidding! But imagine a similar post on the karate/TKD forum. "It'll be a good match but we won't allow any grappling where you actually hold on to the guy with any force. Arm bars? No, we wont allow any techniques which lock the arm. Oh yes, we'll be using the knife work we've learnt from the FMA club too...

Seriously though, it sounds like a fun night. I have no experience of WC but hope you all enjoy sharing some ideas.

[flashlock]

So as long as it's not full contact (Since they're not going to be trying to "knock you out"), they're not doing all of their techniques (watch out for elbows (if not banned) ) and you rely on non BJJ techniques (move in with a simple Jab, Cross, Hook), you'll be absolutley fine!

Long live the alive and complete training of BJJ! :D

Mitch
OK, I'm kidding, I'm kidding! But imagine a similar post on the karate/TKD forum. "It'll be a good match but we won't allow any grappling where you actually hold on to the guy with any force. Arm bars? No, we wont allow any techniques which lock the arm. Oh yes, we'll be using the knife work we've learnt from the FMA club too...

Seriously though, it sounds like a fun night. I have no experience of WC but hope you all enjoy sharing some ideas.

There are no rules, they can elbow and if they want to punch 100%, I'm fine with that--but I will hit 100% too. It will be up to them, I don't care either way. (I'm bringing a mouth guard).

[Connovar]

There are no rules, they can elbow and if they want to punch 100%, I'm fine with that--but I will hit 100% too. It will be up to them, I don't care either way. (I'm bringing a mouth guard).

This is true MA. Each style testing itself with its own strengths and weaknesss. No hiding behind BS. Just real fighting done with respect and an interest in learning for both side. Kudos for both sides.

[Stevebjj]

In order to make it a real test, tell them that you may kill them and that you're prepared to die, but if they survive you'll buy them a beer. They'll think you're kidding. So, laugh with them and then suddenly open your eyes really wide and look intently at them. Oh. Better get the waivers signed BEFORE you do this.

[flashlock]

Very funny, guys!

It is a light thing, just playing around and seeing what happens--no ego. They challenged my friend, a bluebelt BJJ, just to test themselves. I imagine we'll just keep going incrimitantly harder until... yes, someone is killed. >shrugs<.

[Covaliufan]

1. Circle. Like chinese demons, wing chunners can only move in straight lines.

2. Throw a jab, drawing some ridiculous simultaneous block/attack thingy.

3. Put forearms and elbows in front of your face and smash forward into a clinch. Screaming is optional.

4. Fall over while hanging onto wing chunner. Land on top if possible, but it doesn't really matter.

5. Finish from the ground.

[Yohan]

I'd recommend with a few solid jabs. If they can pull you off balance when you strike, I'd be wary about commiting to any solid strikes whilst standing. If they can't, I'd recommend trying to stand with them.

[RandomTriangle]

There are no rules, they can elbow and if they want to punch 100%, I'm fine with that--but I will hit 100% too. It will be up to them, I don't care either way. (I'm bringing a mouth guard).

No offense, but that is the silliest thing i've heard in a while...

How old are the people involved? They HAVE to be in their 20's... because only people in their 20's would feel they have something to prove that is worth serious bodily harm.

They should be allowed to use any technique they want (including elbows) BUT they (as well as you) SHOULD use control.

Sparring is FUN. It shouldn't be about ego, it shouldn't be about pride... it should be able learning.

[RandomTriangle]

So as long as it's not full contact (Since they're not going to be trying to "knock you out"), they're not doing all of their techniques (watch out for elbows (if not banned) ) and you rely on non BJJ techniques (move in with a simple Jab, Cross, Hook), you'll be absolutley fine!

Long live the alive and complete training of BJJ! :D

Mitch
OK, I'm kidding, I'm kidding! But imagine a similar post on the karate/TKD forum. "It'll be a good match but we won't allow any grappling where you actually hold on to the guy with any force. Arm bars? No, we wont allow any techniques which lock the arm. Oh yes, we'll be using the knife work we've learnt from the FMA club too...

Seriously though, it sounds like a fun night. I have no experience of WC but hope you all enjoy sharing some ideas.

What are you talking about? i stand corrected... THIS is the silliest thing i've heard in a while...

What about "not trying to knock you out" is a bad idea? Is the Flashlock supposed to really break the WC guy's arm? Is this sparring, or a real fight?

NOTHING about using CONTROL means you can't use EVERY technique in your system. I grapple with eye gouges and groin strikes (sometimes) and NO one gets hurt...


The WS guy can use EVERY technique in his system... just with control. I could have sworn MA's are supposed to teach control... and again... this shouldn't be a real fight... IT'S SPARRING.

i mean not to be rude... but why the HELL would the WC guy WANT the BJJ guy to go full force with arm BREAKS? Or gouge HIS eyes out when he's under the mount?

Again... the WC guy can use ALL of his techniques, just with control. I mean... if he can't use control... what's the point of sparring? It's not about ego, it's about learning.

I mean when WC people spar each other do they go full force? no. So why would they when sparring BJJ guys? The same way the BJJ guys SHOULDN'T try to break the WC guy's arm... the WC guy shouldn't try to break the BJJ guy.

[RandomTriangle]

Oh and yes... when sparring for fun, someone should pull out a real knife and kill the other guy. That makes sense.

[Stevebjj]

Oh and yes... when sparring for fun, someone should pull out a real knife and kill the other guy. That makes sense.Pffft. Wuss. :cool: ;)

[Mikey Triangles]

No offense, but that is the silliest thing i've heard in a while...

How old are the people involved? They HAVE to be in their 20's... because only people in their 20's would feel they have something to prove that is worth serious bodily harm.

They should be allowed to use any technique they want (including elbows) BUT they (as well as you) SHOULD use control.

Sparring is FUN. It shouldn't be about ego, it shouldn't be about pride... it should be able learning.

you can learn from that :) just not as much as the WC guys...


I did a hapkido tournament using only pure sport BJJ once. people that don't train grappling are a joke once you get ahold of them...

[cloudz]

There are no rules, they can elbow and if they want to punch 100%, I'm fine with that--but I will hit 100% too. It will be up to them, I don't care either way. (I'm bringing a mouth guard).

There are NO rules, what about say head butts ?

*edit. You know you have to post a vid now, it's mandatory.

[sudo02]

yes make sure you video it, we want to see all the fights

[windtalker]

although im generally opposed to gambling this might have the making for a little side betting. please video tape and post results!

[flashlock]

"No rules" "headbutts"... haha!

It's just light sparring between friends. I don't know them, but it's just going to be tap-tap-tap.

If they WANT to go harder, I'm all for it, but nobody wants to get hurt or hurt anyone.

I'll report Saturday...

[flashlock]

Report: Well, about 8 Ground Zero BJJ guys showed up (your faithless narrator included)--and we waited and waited, no WC guys. So we sparred and boxed until one of them finally came.

As he comes into the door, he asks, "Is there anybody here who posts on Martial Arts Planet? Called Flashlock?"

So I raise my hand, "Yeah, that's me."

He was a nice guy--I guess one of his friends is a MAPper. He said his friends/ students coudlnt' come, but they wanted to try it again next Saturday.

I told him my strategy was to jam up the distance and go for some kind of shoot or take down, obviously.

He said he had real problems fighting BJJ/ MMA guys. For one, he said he can't do any WC with gloves because they slow his chain punching down. I guess it would because those vertical fists are practically touching when you chain punch.

He also said the MMA guys kick so hard with those shin round houses that he's not doing any wing chung when he's been sparring them, just blocking and back pedelling.

And when he's taken down... he said he was able to defend himself to a point, but only to delay the choke.

Also mentioned the WC stance wasn't so good vs MMA because they just kick his leg (his knee is injured from last Saturday).

So I wondered... why do WC?

He said his sifu (who happens to have a dojo right under where I train) said street fights last about 3 seconds. WC guys won many many fights by pre-emptive chain punching.

I asked, "What, as the guy is raising his fists to punch, you straight blast him?"

WC guy, "Yeah."

"You knock him out with little chain punches?" I asked skeptically.

"It's cumulative. One little punch won't knock you out, but if several hit you, your brain bounces around so much and is jarred, causing a knockout."

"What if you can't pre-emptively chain punch and the fight goes loner than 3 seconds?"

"That's not good for us, we can't be rolling around like you guys."

Intersting take on fighting... they seem to hail-mary-pass their chain punching, but have no Plan B?

Guess I'll find out next Saturday...

[KempoFist]

"Intersting take on fighting... they seem to hail-mary-pass their chain punching, but have no Plan B?"

Just wanted to say, I liked your analogy ;)

I woulda told the guy that sucker punching doesn't take much training, and that I'd rather train solid fundamentals than spend month after month on something that only sometimes works when you successfully sucker punch the other guy before the fight starts.

[Davey Bones]

"What if you can't pre-emptively chain punch and the fight goes loner than 3 seconds?"

"That's not good for us, we can't be rolling around like you guys."

Intersting take on fighting... they seem to hail-mary-pass their chain punching, but have no Plan B?

Guess I'll find out next Saturday...

That's a crappy take on fighting, and I'd be surprised as all hell if the show up next week.

[sudo02]

very poor, you should have filmed him talking all that crap. when he watched it on here he might realise that he is doing the wrong art.

[Satori81]

Bummer.

I'm DYING to hear some reports from BJJ/MMA guys about hard hitting TCMA folks. I have complete faith and confidence that SOMEWHERE a hard hitting, alive training TCMA guy will wreck some stuff in an MMA match.

I really wanted to see you post something like, "Wow, those guys were hard core! I think one of them broke my nose with their chain punching stuff!"

Maybe next Saturday.

[Mikey Triangles]

how'd it go

[robertmap]

Hi,

I'd just like to suggest that there is more to WC than chain punching and its the old adage "It's the fighter, not the art".

The idea that WC only wins a fight by doing a straight blast in the first few seconds doesn't tally with what I learnt a few years back when I had a quick 'dabble' at WC (One lesson a week for a little under six months - I think...)

Remember that there are many arts that are iceberg like - a lot is hidden from the casual viewer.

All the best.

Robert.

[KempoFist]

Hi,

I'd just like to suggest that there is more to WC than chain punching and its the old adage "It's the fighter, not the art".

The idea that WC only wins a fight by doing a straight blast in the first few seconds doesn't tally with what I learnt a few years back when I had a quick 'dabble' at WC (One lesson a week for a little under six months - I think...)

Remember that there are many arts that are iceberg like - a lot is hidden from the casual viewer.

All the best.

Robert.

Kinda like how people think that BJJ is all submissions and that they don't know how to use a fist :)

[flashlock]

The guy who talked about winning a fight w/ chain punching in 3 seconds got that from his Sifu, whose teacher trained under or taught (I forget) Bruce Lee his Wing Chung. His surname is Peterson, I think.

These WC guys did in fact spar vs ground zero BJJ guys the last two weeks, but, of course, when they heard I would be showing up, they suddenly had "things come up". (Just kidding). I think they will show again Saturday. It's a friendly thing, but I really was looking forward to it all week--disappointing.

Will keep you guys posted... let me know if you want to come down and play too...

[Patrick_baji]

so......next saturday they're coming for sure? coz I wanna come see this, a few of my friends and I have been lookin for some friendly sparring...

and where exactly in melbourne uni are you guys gonna be coz I was there last Sunday for the open day and it's a pretty big place

[1bad65]

Guess I'll find out next Saturday...

Don't hold your breath.

As to why he still trains there: delusion is a powerful thing.

[1bad65]

I'm DYING to hear some reports from BJJ/MMA guys about hard hitting TCMA folks. I have complete faith and confidence that SOMEWHERE a hard hitting, alive training TCMA guy will wreck some stuff in an MMA match.


IMO, the reason you don't have many hard core, old school TMA places is that it has something in common with MMA; alive training. Alive training in ANY art tends to frighten off alot of prospective students who want to become killing machines without ever breaking a sweat, or getting a bruise, etc.

[TheMightyMcClaw]

I'm DYING to hear some reports from BJJ/MMA guys about hard hitting TCMA folks. I have complete faith and confidence that SOMEWHERE a hard hitting, alive training TCMA guy will wreck some stuff in an MMA match.


Cung Le (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SheQmtwxU6I)

Jason Delucia (http://venus.secureguards.com/~aikidog-/aikicenter/modules.php?name=AikiClips)

Bullshido's Omega (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZBoxX48_tAo)

Nolan Lee (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5978331942753963933&q=Nolan+Lee&total=59&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=2)

It's not that hard to find CMA in the cage if you look hard enough. Just don't wait for someone to explode people's ribcages with palm strikes like a character out of a Jin Yong novel.

[CKava]

Elbows in friendly sparring? Mr. Flash I'm sure this will be a perfectly friendly thing when/if it happens but don't go uber ridiculous (or maybe exagerrate online?). Muay Thai guys don't spar full out with elbows. Set some decent rules so you can have a good training session even if the other guys suck and avoid a trip to the hospital.

[flashlock]

Elbows in friendly sparring? Mr. Flash I'm sure this will be a perfectly friendly thing when/if it happens but don't go uber ridiculous (or maybe exagerrate online?). Muay Thai guys don't spar full out with elbows. Set some decent rules so you can have a good training session even if the other guys suck and avoid a trip to the hospital.

As I said, it's just going to be light sparring; I think they want to practive sprawling vs takedowns, mainly. And we want to test ourselves against their style... it's just friendly,yes, nothing crazy.

[Patrick_baji]

wait so...did u verse them or what?

[flashlock]

wait so...did u verse them or what?

They cancelled again.

Oh well...

[Satsui_No_Hadou]

Ah man I was looking forward to seeing if Wing Chun could face off against the might of BJJ/MMA. Tell them they suck for cancelling! They obviously feel aversion toward meeting for whatever reason. Any idea why?

[Davey Bones]

They cancelled again.

Oh well...

Told you so.

[flashlock]

Ah man I was looking forward to seeing if Wing Chun could face off against the might of BJJ/MMA. Tell them they suck for cancelling! They obviously feel aversion toward meeting for whatever reason. Any idea why?

Well, they had met up with my other club members on 2 occasions--

it did not go well for the wing chung guys, I'm afraid.

From what I've been told, they were not able to do any wing chung because their front legs got muy thai kicked, then they had to sprawl against take down attempts. When they got to the ground, they had to defend chokes, so they said they couldn't do any wing chung anyway.

I've been thinking about how when the difference between what you practice and how you spar is great, the less practical your art is. It seems, and maybe I'm wrong, that when a BJJ guy or kickboxer fight, their moves look like what they practice all day.

But when a kung fu or ninja guy fights for real, they don't move or look anything like what they practice.

If you can't do it vs a resisting opponent, why bother studying it? I guess people have different reasons, but to me it seems like bad budo.