RE: Shaolin name lawsuit information?

[shunyadragon]

I would like information concerning any lawsuits in the US or other western countries over the use of the Shaolin name.

FRank in China

[Shaolin Dragon]

I have heard of none - I know there is a school in London that claims to be the "official" Shaolin monastary-led school, but in this country any Tom, **** or Harry can start a MA school and call it what he wants.

[David]

lol @ the censoring!

[Shaolin Dragon]

As in an nickname for Richard.

Tom, Richard and Harry doesn't have quite the same ring to it.

[zun]

The temple in london is indeed the officially associated with Shaolin temple.

[Shaolin Dragon]

But there are many other clubs which claim to originate from the Shaolin temple (including my own) and as far as I know none of them have been stopped from using the Shaolin name.

[Sub zero]

Hey shaolin dragon.

As far as i know ur style has originated form the saolin temple. Like the twon styles i practice (hung gar and lau gar). However, the school in london is the official temple named by the chinese govnt. t what extent what they practice is shaolin kubng fu is anther matter.

BUt i thin it is important to realise the difference between mine and ur styles (Hung, lau, li, mok, choi gar etc) and "shaolin Kung fu" Our styles are deriritives.

[shunyadragon]

I resieved this from Odd Sox on another site. The ramifications may take awhile for those using the name Shaolin as a school name.

The name Shaolin is the name only used for state controled schools. The main target in China is using Shaolin as a part of company and product names that do not represent the state controled Shaolin Temple and its subsideraries around China and the world.

Shaolin Monks Fight for Trademark

By Ted Anthony
Associated Press

Beijing, Sept. 25--(AP) The monks of Shaolin Temple want the world to back off a little. And they’re hardly the sort of monks you want to agitate.

With the claw of international commerce at its door, the Buddhist temple with the martial-arts tradition made famous by dozens of kung fu movies is fighting back - and not with its hands and feet - to safeguard the Shaolin trademark from opportunistic marketeers. “It is our unshirkable historical responsibility to protect and rejuvenate the culture of Shaolin,” said Shi Yongxin, the abbot of Shaolin Temple, quoted Wednesday by the official Xinhua News Agency.

In recent months, the temple in central China’s Henan province has been trying to register “Shaolin” and “Shaolin Temple” as trademarks with the government’s General Administration for Industry and Commerce. It has also set up a firm, Henan Shaolin Temple Industrial Development Ltd. Co., to safeguard the temple’s name and ban its “abusive use” in commercial activities.
The message: Don’t mess with the monks. “To those who abuse the name for commercial purposes, we’re going to take appropriate actions,” Qin Daliang, the new consortium’s general manager, said in a telephone interview Wednesday.
In mainland China, more than 100 businesses - including those selling cars, food, liquor, medicine, even furniture - use a Shaolin trademark of some sort, the China Trademark and Patent Affairs Agency says. Six years ago, the temple’s vegetarian monks won a lawsuit against a company in a nearby town that was using the Shaolin name to market its product - canned hams.
And abroad, a spot check by the agency on five continents found 117 items that use the name Shaolin - all without consulting the temple. “They’re probably appealing to a sense of mystery, the exotic notion of ancient China, some kind of intangible benefit or sense of somehow being authentic,” said Bob Zielinski, a Philadelphia intellectual property attorney - and martial artist of 35 years - who has worked with Chinese companies.
Shaolin Temple, built in 496 in the foothills of sacred Mount Songshan, is widely considered the birthplace of Shaolin Boxing, a unique combination of Buddhism and Chinese martial arts that evolved into “gongfu,” or kung fu.
According to state historians, the militia monks of Shaolin gained notoriety during the early Tang Dynasty (618-907) by helping Emperor Li Shimin defeat a feudal ruler trying to overthrow the monarch. These days, the monks use their martial arts skills primarily as self-discipline.

But it was a spate of kung fu movies in the 1970s - many starring Bruce Lee and myriad imitators - that brought the martial art to the world’s attention. Hong Kong’s Jackie Chan, among others, has maintained that tradition in recent years, and the hip-hop group Wu-Tang Clan has traded heavily on its Shaolin imagery.
The spread of unauthorized Shaolin material - and the monks’ awareness of its existence - illustrate how globalization has united products and people in unusual ways. Twenty years ago, it was unlikely Shaolin Temple would have heard about companies on other continents trading on its name, much less cared.
Now, though, with money and prestige on the line and economic barriers between nations falling, it’s a different story. And for the government, it’s an example of what foreign companies have been grousing about for years in China: the rampant sale of unauthorized products that trade on famous brands. “The incidence of the Shaolin Temple is very small in comparison with software and DVDs,” Zielinski said. “But it will be instructive for the Chinese, I think, to understand that in order for them to get protection for something they view to be valuable, they’ll have to start playing by the rules.”

So far, the temple has procured the rights to five already registered Shaolin trademarks in Australia. And not only is it working to register the Shaolin name in 100 countries, Qin says, but it has applied to the United Nations as a “World Intangible Heritage” site. “We have to take steps to protect ourselves,” Qin said. “To protect the names of Shaolin and Shaolin Temple is to protect the classics of the Chinese culture.”

[Shaolin Dragon]

From the article, it appears to be more a case of commercial items and companies than schools.

For my part, I do not see a problem, provided the schools teach Kung Fu that is Shaolin in origin (or perhaps include the phrase "based on" in their title).

It would be like saying "you cannot call it Irish dancing (a traditional folk dance over here) unless you learnt it in Ireland."

[Shaolin Dragon]

I found the following bit of info online:

For those who may not be aware, the Shaolin Monks like you see in the movies no longer exist. By this I mean the historical Shaolin Monks, popular in Chinese history, folklore, literature and movies, who practiced Shaolin wushu while staying devote buddhist monks, living in the Shaolin Temple have disappeared. The temple was practically abandoned during the Cultural Revolution in China. What you find at the temple today is not what was there beforehand. The fact that the people you find in and around the Temple now claiming to represent it are not true monks is well known amongst martial artists in China. Jet Li himself is the best eyewitness, he went to the Temple in 1979 for the filming of Shaolin Temple and didn't find any martial monks. Read his remarks off his own webpage. Furthermore it is a well known fact that martial arts masters from other parts of China were brought by the government to Shaolin in the 80's to reintroduce martial arts to the area.

Presently around the temple there is a large number of private wushu schools, some of whom teach authentic Shaolin Wushu, but many of them also feature contemporary wushu (ie 'competition sport wushu'). Even if the people running these schools were buddhist monks (which many of them, of course are not), they would not be Shaolin Temple Monks (they would be "Monks who live down the street from the Shaolin Temple"). But then, are Buddhist monks supposed to be running a private martial arts school? Despite this fact, for many of these schools, their student's attire during wushu performances (if not practice) is the robes of Buddhist monks - kind of like dressing up like a Catholic priest during Halloween, somewhat sacreligious if you ask me.

But what about the people that live and train IN the Temple? Well either way, we know they aren't direct, uninterrupted decendents from the historical monks. But still, you can ask the question: Are they true Buddhist monks? By that I mean they have taken the vows of a Buddhist monk (the same Buddhist vows that any monk, Shaolin or not must take and follow). There is a difference between a Buddhist and a Buddhist monk, just like there is a difference between a Catholic and a Catholic Priest, the standards of behavior within the religion are different, Monks and Priest are held to much higher standards of behavior than laymen. The behavior of the "monks" in the news and on these tours would lead you to believe that these people are not living up to those standards (see the update section at the bottom for examples). There very well may be true devote Buddhist Monks out there practicing Shaolin Wushu, but I'm afraid these people are a very small minority.



This article alludes that the Shaolin "monks" themselves are nothing more than MAists brought in by the state to increase cultural standing and make money.

[shunyadragon]

My visits to Shaolin support the observations by Jet Li. I found a very commercial almost circus-like atmosphere in and around the Temple when I visited in 1999. The notion that there is a true monastery or there are Shaolin 'monks' is an illusion today. It is basically dominated by state run for profit operations.

I believe the goals of State run Shaolin in copyrighting the name goes well beyond just stopping the name from being used for commercial purposes. I believe they intend to make it the exclusive trademark name of their monasteries/schools world wide.

There is some question as to what is 'authentic' Wushu in China or even what is Wushu. I am more impressed by what I see in some of the parks around China then what I saw around Shaolin.

The history of Arts of the Way and Shaolin is clouded by political involvement since the "monks of Shaolin gained notoriety during the early Tang Dynasty (618-907) by helping Emperor Li Shimin defeat a feudal ruler trying to overthrow the monarch."

Wushu means 'Martial or Warrior Arts' which is a contradiction to the original philosphy of Buddhism taught through the simpler disaplines originally practiced by Buddhist monks. The original philosophy centered around the 'Way' and the goal was to devote your life to the avoidance of conflict so that you could end 'seperation' and become detached from the conflicts of the outside world and end 'suffering'. There are some indications in history that the more aggresive 'Warrior Arts' corupted and subverted the original disaplines and ideals of Monastary over time after the founding of the monastery.

[Shaolin Dragon]

That is not to say that the supposed Shaolin monks aren't good at what they do - having seen a demonstration here in England (with the ticket funds supposedly going towards restoration of the Shaolin temple) I can personally vouch that they are amazing - but whether what they are doing is really Shaolin is another question.

[Yan]

Hrm

Does it matter whether or not it's authentic Shaolin? I'm sure any one of the derivatives could beat the crap out of pretty much anyone.

Sub Zero: I think you need to type slower mate.

[CKava]

Originally posted by Yan
Does it matter whether or not it's authentic Shaolin? I'm sure any one of the derivatives could beat the crap out of pretty much anyone.

Just because someone is good at gymnastics and choreographed fighting doesn't mean they are capable of beating the crap out of anyone... I mean I think gymnasts are incredibly impressive but I wouldnt exactly be fearing for my life if someone said "Watch yourself, I know gymnastics!"

[Andy Murray]

Originally posted by CKava
Just because someone is good at gymnastics and choreographed fighting doesn't mean they are capable of beating the **** out of anyone...

Nor does it mean they can't.

They may practice MMA style when they're not doing their day job of gymnastics.

Who knows?

[hwardo]

There are so many derivatives and offshoots of authentic shaolin styles at this point... Even if the new wushu guys who currently inhabit the shaolin temple (which is in the process of being completely torn down, incidently) try to sue for exclusive rights to the name, there is no way they could legitimately lay claim to the heritage. It would be like someone trademarking "karate."

[CKava]

[Originally posted by Andy Murray]
Nor does it mean they can't.

They may practice MMA style when they're not doing their day job of gymnastics.

:) Quite true, but I think its only fair that if as I suggested they are going to walk up and tell me what they do before they fight me, they should mention things like that to give me time to scuttle away... But on another note a friend who does gymnastics and TKD recently mentioned to me that gymnasts tend to develop either tendons or muscles (I cant remember) in a very different way from practitioners of martial arts; less strength, more flexibility or something like that? (Anyway I guess this isnt exactly on the topic of the thread so apologies, maybe Ill go make a new one...)

[Shaolin Dragon]

Originally posted by hwardo
There are so many derivatives and offshoots of authentic shaolin styles at this point... Even if the new wushu guys who currently inhabit the shaolin temple (which is in the process of being completely torn down, incidently) try to sue for exclusive rights to the name, there is no way they could legitimately lay claim to the heritage. It would be like someone trademarking "karate."

I agree with you in principle, but the fact is that the shaolin temple has its backing from the govt. of China. Who knows what might happen?

[shunyadragon]

I agree that being able to do choreographed techniques, fighting etc, means very little and that is all I have seen from any Shaolin school in China. I never seen any true free style performances or genuinely good application of techniques. Without good application of techniques you have nothing.

I have also seen what I clearly describe as bad (miserable, embarrassing, comical and foolish) techniques being demonstrated and taught. I watched groups of students practicing series of forward rolls. They were extending their arms and hands in front of them going into each roll. Your arms and hands should be held in against the abdomen or chest when you roll in preparation for striking, holding and using weapons at anytime. They should NEVER be extended in a roll or a fall. Extending the arms is a bad habit when rolling or falling because it leads to injuries and poor technique. Rolls should be tight, quick and in any direction. Arms and hands are for striking and holding weapons not breaking falls.

Their sword techniques and weapons used are dismal if not comical, tin flapping in the wind. I have never seen anyone trained in proper sword techniques since I have been in China. No one I have seen or met could even properly draw or return their sword to scabbard.

I have developed Horse cutter sword techniques using the one meter blade Qin Dynasty sword. The forms involved drawing and returning the sword and actual techniques useful for a foot soldier fighting mounted calvary. The development of good forms takes a lot of research and effort and not blindly following fools, because sword Arts of the Way in China are so bad it is indeed a circus.

The Japanese have succeeded in preserving good sword techniques similar to those of the Tang Dynasty that were taken to Japan from China. In Japanese sword Arts you are trained to use and respect a real sword as an intimate part of you and not something that is a piece of tin flapping in the wind.

NEVER, NEVER EVER FALL, always roll and attack.

[Shaolin Dragon]

Perhaps I should change my sig. to "even when you metaphorically fall down?"

Whilst I cannot vouch for sword arts practiced in china, my experience of Chinese swordsmanship is that it is less a question of directly opposing your opponent's weapon, and more of out-maneuvering them, hence Chinese swords tend to be more delicate and "graceful."

[zun]

Originally posted by hwardo
There are so many derivatives and offshoots of authentic shaolin styles at this point... Even if the new wushu guys who currently inhabit the shaolin temple (which is in the process of being completely torn down, incidently) try to sue for exclusive rights to the name, there is no way they could legitimately lay claim to the heritage. It would be like someone trademarking "karate."

In EU they bring stoopid directives from time to time like bananas have to be straight.

Some of the more recent directives meant that only ham from Parma could be called Parma ham, Champagne must be from the Champagne region, etc.

A little bit of money *cough* *cough* could proably see a directive for Shaolin, so that items made in Shaolin could only be labelled Shaolin. Or a little bit more money - Kung Fu only from Shaolin region could be called Kung Fu!

[shunyadragon]

The Shaolin Temple was leveled during the cultural revolution and rebuilt again as movie set. I have not been there lately, but heard the new one will be more closer to a restoration of the old one.

Control is a big issue with China. There being stung a lot with lawsuits concerning copyright infringment and trade name usage. This has increased since China joined the WTO and commited the country to abide by international trade name and copyright laws. I think it is not unreasonable to assume that China will try and play the same game with Shaolin to control the name world wide as a cultural symbol and trade name for the Shaolin Temple and its OFFICIAL branches around the world.

Frank

[Shaolin Dragon]

The Shaolin name does have a powerful pull to it. Could we see the dawn of a new McDojo?

[shunyadragon]

Yep!

Commercialization of their ancient culture and history is today's thing in China, since they have little respect for the past before 1949.

China is eager to play the McDonald's franchise game with anything they can market. McDonald's is a great example for them to follow. They opened it's first Franchise about 20 years ago, now there are 1000s across the whole country.

[shaolintintin]

i think it is ridiculous and makes everyone lose sight of what this is all meant to be about anyway...

keep it simple :)