Seppuku

[shotokanwarrior]

shotokanwarrior here....
regarding the samurai ritual of seppuku. what is the ritual significance of disembowelling oneself? why not just sever your head? why not kill yourself some other way?

[YODA]

It is a ritual opening up of the Seika Tanden

[shotokanwarrior]

what the hell is your seikatanden?
shotokanwarrior

[Serpico]

I also thought that it had something to do with regaining your honor through the pain. Seppuku is a painful way to die.

[Knight_Errant]

This is pretty gruesome stuff, man...

[JediMasterChris]

Seppuku cleansed the person of any dishoner they might have had.

And actually they did behead themselves in a way.

After the cut an H shape in their stomach they would have one of their best friends chosen to behead them before they screamed, on occasion.

[Andy Murray]

Originally posted by JediMasterChris
Seppuku cleansed the person of any dishoner they might have had.

And actually they did behead themselves in a way.

After the cut an H shape in their stomach they would have one of their best friends chosen to behead them before they screamed, on occasion.

Honda have a lot to answer for!

[shotokanwarrior]

Hello, what the hell is your Seikatanden?
shotokanwarrior

[SoKKlab]

Dan Tien
Dan Jun
Tanden=Hara

The seat of your very being/ Soul.
Centre of your gravity etc.

UseumGooogle for better life.

[YODA]

Originally posted by shotokanwarrior
Hello, what the hell is your Seikatanden?
shotokanwarrior


I would have prefered "Thanks for the info Yoda. What is your Seika Tanden?"

[shotokanwarrior]

Originally posted by JediMasterChris
Seppuku cleansed the person of any dishoner they might have had.

And actually they did behead themselves in a way.

After the cut an H shape in their stomach they would have one of their best friends chosen to behead them before they screamed, on occasion.
did they cut an H shape? i thought it was just one slash and then you're dead.

[JediMasterChris]

One slash would not kill a person.

People can live with their organs outside their bodies for hours I think, one slash would take a long time, they would have to bleed to death.

[YODA]

As far as I'm aware it was akind of "J" shape - and shortly after a "friend" would lop off their head.

They even had a special way to fold the Hakama or Kimono so that it trapped the feet and they wouldn't slump over.

[Disciple]

Why self immolation? Many western philosphies reagarded the soul, or ka, or spirit, of the person to be in the sloar plexus. removing the viscera would allow the soul to be free.

AS for the cut, it was crosswise, tradionallym though there are multple forms in other instances. the cross wise, into the left bottom of the stommach, across, from the bottom right up to the left across the veiscera.

[47Ronin]

Hmm, If I ever wanted to end my life I would go with seppuku. But the idea of it sounds so damn painful that it keeps me clear of that.

[Disciple]

Finally! Someone who agrees with me. I always state, there is only one true way to die... SEPPUKU! lol

[47Ronin]

Yep, either that or die in battle ;)

[nzric]

Actually got a book which has a whole chapter on this (nasty stuff). They kneel on their robes in a certain way because the body has an instant muscle reaction to a stab in the gut - not surprisingly - so they have to keep their own body upright.

Also, their friend stands behind them and lops off the head straight after, both to put them out of their pain (it's about the act, you're not supposed to sit and slowly die) but also because a lot of people would have second thoughts and choose not to kill themselves. It was seen as more honourable to have your friend kill you when you were halfway out the door (then make it seem like you had actually done the deed), than change your mind, escape and live a coward.

Also, you can live for a while with a stomach wound (most deaths from these wounds are from infection (puncturing the stomach/intestine wall), not the wound itself) - the book I have says a famous poet committed seppuku then put his own intestines on a plate to offer to the emperor - a final act of protest.

:)

[ns_oni]

Just search around on google, there are alot of sites that describe the essence of seppuku, it doesnt seem like a bad thing once you've read how the samurai lived..

[Disciple]

The person comminting seppuku was not always killed by their second.
Also, it was not a beheading, the sword cut as finished by the front of the neck so the face would fall forawrd and be covered to hide it in case a face of pain was shown.
The cut happened at different time according to the man commiting seppuku. Sometimes the man did not even get the sword then his second made the cut. Some went threw the entire process and didn't have a second.

Story: A samurai's master was very nervous b/c he was ordered to commit seppuku and worried about dishonoring himself. The samurai invited his master into his room, explaining how it was nothing he (master) could not handle for he (samurai) had commited it himself, then he (samurai) removed his robes then the bandageing around his stomach.

As I said before, there were different methods at times. One samurai may have merely impaled himself through the stomach through the spine in battle to make sure that he was not captured. Also, there was an instance where a samurai did this and needed to make a second impaled ment b/c he merely paralyzed himself. Around this time the croswise cut was starting to be developed.

A samurai always held a hidden sword to commit emergancy and could commit seppuku by impaling one's own heart.

For women somethings were differnent. In ceremonial, they were not required to make the crosswise cut, but merely a cat across the upper chest and lower neck, sometimes impalement.

In Japanese culture men and women of anyclass, including samurai, were equal. Now they each had different rules in society, but that was understood so society couild remain structured and honorable.

[Kwajman]

Generally the sword thrust was intended to sever the abdominal aorta, if this happens, the rupture or tear will cause a bleed out in less than 30 seconds. Simply stabbing oneself will not guarantee death let alone a quick death. I had always wondered about the purpose of the second beheading the subject...

[shotokanwarrior]

Originally posted by JediMasterChris
One slash would not kill a person.

People can live with their organs outside their bodies for hours I think, one slash would take a long time, they would have to bleed to death.
YEKH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!that is DISGUSTING!where did you get that information?

[Disciple]

once again, the cut to the neck is NOT a BEHEADING. It doesn't sever the head from the top... It isn't suppose to, sometimes it does, but it is not suppose to if done correctly. It merely cuts 9/10 os the neck so the head fall forawrd and is covered by the skind it is still attached to. Sometimes the beheading occured, but that wasn't the idea.
LOL.

And yes, sometimes people would open their viscera and do things with their intestines, live for a bit, and then die later. Like one man cut his and flung his entrails against the side of a buidling in a protest and made a long speech... What stamina.

[ns_oni]

yeah a while ago a man was attacked by a shark and survived, on the boat his wife had to try and keep his intestines inside of him.

[shotokanwarrior]

you know samurai men had 2 rip open their kimonos 2 commit seppuku? did the women do that too?

[shotokanwarrior]

Originally posted by nzric
They kneel on their robes in a certain way because the body has an instant muscle reaction to a stab in the gut
:)
what exactly is that?

[Charbodan]

The vikings had a disembowelment ritual that involved cutting yourself open, cutting and tie one end of your intestines to a post and then literally walking around the post.

The more laps you did the more honorable your walk.

Theirs was not about release the spirit/breath though, I think it was more to do with another way of proving yourself for entrance into Valhalla or honouring your father if you were captured in battle.

Old school and ewwwww.

[YODA]

Eeeeeeeeeeew!

[Poop-Loops]

Originally posted by Charbodan
The vikings had a disembowelment ritual that involved cutting yourself open, cutting and tie one end of your intestines to a post and then literally walking around the post.

The more laps you did the more honorable your walk.

Theirs was not about release the spirit/breath though, I think it was more to do with another way of proving yourself for entrance into Valhalla or honouring your father if you were captured in battle.

Old school and ewwwww.

They should make that a new game in kindergarden. :)

PL

[Dark Blade]

I think the pattern cut into someone during Seppuku, was firstly, one very deep and wide cut about 2.5inches below the navel, which was thought to be the core, and would allow the person to die quicker.
And then, truly serious, fierce, or loyal samurai would drive the blade in again, and pull it upwards. This allows your internal organs to spill out, which represented acceptance, or showing yourself (like a confession and appetence that you have to pay the price) , or various other things.

Then, the person committing the kaishaku ( "head chopping") would make a strike at the back of the head, but would stop about 70% of the way through, so as not to dishonour the person my removing their head, but to let the head had to the chest, hide the pain and the person could retain his honour.
But, if the samurai had to commit Seppuku when he had done something grossly wrong, the head would often be cut clean off.

Samurai had to be VERY careful in the moment of their death, because if they suddenly became hysterical with fear and cowardice in the moment of death, everything they had ever done would be lost and he would be held in disgust. And it was considered to be one of the most dishonourable things one could do, some others being, betraying a lord, employer or family, or something of the sort.

Thus, the single most important thing to a samurai was, how he would behave in the moment of his death.

-------------------------------------------
I'm pretty sure most of this is right, I'm quoting from the bushido (Samurai code, as I'm sure most of you know) and a book on the samurai, their fighting arts and culture.

[Disciple]

Shotokan Warrior, the women did not have to commit seppuku in the same way. Femal Samurai merely had to slip their throats, or impale their hearts in an emergancy.

[Shadow_Lurker]

Originally posted by Disciple
Why self immolation? Many western philosphies reagarded the soul...

Disciple, remember that is WESTERN. Asia is in the east... and going on that, you have to remember that they thought and believed completely different things as we do today or as the Americas did in that time or maybe even Europe.

[blaksun]

I was led to belive it was more of a cross shape, and their second cut off their head before the pain could dishonour them.
And they did this whenever something *slightly* embarrasing happened to them.
Samurai loved death more than life.

Oh, how I detest samurai...

[Disciple]

My bad, I meant eastern, I wanted to say western believe it is in the head and eastern the solar plexus, I ought to change that.

[DoH]

Originally posted by blaksun

Samurai loved death more than life.




I wouldnt say that. I personally have never read the bushido but MY thought on the subject is quite simple. *I* above all things want to die a proud man. Die with my head up high without regret or dishonor. Does this mean i love death more then life? HELL NO! Life is of utmost importance. I believe the samurai had a similar thought on this.... look at all they had to do in life and all the things that could make them loose honor... And the few things that could let them regain it. So saying they loved death more then life is (imho) totally wrong. I believe they just wanted to end it the way they lived it.

I may be wrong since as i mentioned above i never read the bushido :P just my lil theory on the subject here

[aikiwolfie]

Anybody feel like sausages right now .... ya know the ones called links made in a long chain .... mmmmmmmm sausages .... drools ...

[Kwajman]

I always thought the 'second' only partially beheaded the, uh, victim for lack of a better word. The head would fall forward so that the attendees wouldn't see the grimace, or facial expressions made by the beheadee that could possibly construed as less than honorable.

[TheMasterSword]

Hagakure is an excellent book dealing with the morals of the samurai as welll as it talks about seppukui in detail..

another fun fact that ive learned about seppuku is that if the person doin the "be-heading" did not do it properly... he himself would have to commit seppuku which is why many samurai did not do the "be-heading".... it was also their job to rip off some the skin from the opening of the neck..yummy

[Kwajman]

gulp, yuck, nothing like a little pressure. What if he hickupped right when he swung the sword....oops...

[nzric]

another fun fact that ive learned about seppuku is that if the person doin the "be-heading" did not do it properly... he himself would have to commit seppuku

LOL I can just imagine a long line of clumsy samurai committing seppuku one after the other "whoops - shame the grip was a bit slippery. Ok, I'll kneel down - looks like it's your turn Ted"

[Hyaku]

One slash would not kill a person.

People can live with their organs outside their bodies for hours I think, one slash would take a long time, they would have to bleed to death.

Yes you have it! Thats why they opted on a kaishakunin to finish the job when the person doing the self immolation had shown sufficient bravery.

Moore info here.

http://www.hyoho.com/Hagakure1.html

[marikita]

Often, the defeated warlords would commit seppuku to keep the invader/vanquisher from having the honor of beheading them and bringing back their heads as trophy.

Thank you, Japanese History class...

If you want to read more, I suggest the tale of the Heike.

[Jordan]

shotokanwarrior here....
regarding the samurai ritual of seppuku. what is the ritual significance of disembowelling oneself? why not just sever your head? why not kill yourself some other way?
If your wondering why they used a Tanto, it's because it was the best thing available. They didn't have guns back then so a knife was the next best thing.

[nunchaku8587]

seppuku involved cutting the stomach because the japanese believed that the stomach is the center of emotions. seppuku was preformed as a way of cleaning your name when you dishonored yourself in some way. it's highly respected and honored. the second person would cut off the head with the sword of the person performing seppuku, so if anything went wrong they could blame the sword, since the japanese katana was the soul of the samurai. also, the person cutting off the head would face the north, and the person cutting himself would face the west (i might have mixed that up though).


just some information you might not know.... :Angel: