Question regarding Tai Chi

[Shade]

Hi, I am both new to this forum and to MA in general (I did study Iaido for two years, but had a break of some sixteen years before starting to study CKD recently), and am very interested in what I have been reading here about Taiji.

In particular I am very impressed with the knowledge of Syd, Zun and nzric amongst others and wonder if any of you can help me with a question.

In addition to practicing CKD, I regularly train at home and also do a lot of stretching. In January I will be taking up yoga, mainly for flexibility but I am also very interested in the health and meditation aspects (although these are longer term, I envisage a lifelong commitment which will lead me down these paths).

I am also very interested in Tai Chi, both from a health perspective and also from what I am reading and learning about its MA aspects. Furthermore the introduction of discussions regarding Chinese and Taoist philosophies, acupuncture and healing which have been introduced in several threads (particularly by nzric) both interest and intrigue me. I have already placed a few books (notably I Ching and Tao Te Ching to name just two) on my xmas wish list, although I suspect that they may fall into the same class for me as such notable tomes as ‘A Brief History of Time’ (i.e. have to read each chapter about three times to understand it).

Anyways, my question is a simple one. I am thinking of joining a Tai Chi class (there appear to be a number in my area) initially for the health side as opposed to the MA side. The question is if I then looked to incorporate the MA side into my training at a later stage, would there be any conflicts (reasoning being that there seems to be different schools of thought and practice even within Tai Chi). My suspicion is no, but thought I would ask the opinion of those actually practising. Leading on from this, would I have an advantage in learning the MA aspects of Tai Chi if I had a grounding in it already (I suspect yes, but please advise).

[Syd]

G'day Shade,

Thanks and welcome! I'll do my best to perhaps answer some of your questions.

The question is if I then looked to incorporate the MA side into my training at a later stage, would there be any conflicts

This may depend on who your teacher is and what style you decide to opt for. For instance if you were to go for any of the short forms under the long 108 Yang Cheng Fu, I would say that you might run into some problems later on with applications because there so many moves cut out in the short forms as well as a huge drop in conditioning and qigong work flow driven by the length of the forms.

You could however quite easily do the Yang Cheng Fu 108 long form for health, get all the benefits of this both physically, mentally and spiritually and then later begin learning the applications from this before moving on to the Yang Lu Chan form which has the explosive fajin and leaping kicks.

Leading on from this, would I have an advantage in learning the MA aspects of Tai Chi if I had a grounding in it already (I suspect yes, but please advise).

Again this depends on the student and the teacher and the style you are training in. I would say that given all of the above were in correct alignment, then definately you would have an advantage over not having any experience at all whatsoever.

I hope my answers were not too simplistic but it's actually about where things sit.

Best, Syd

[Shade]

Hi Syd,

Thanks for your reply. And your answers were great (even if they are simplistic this is fine as they are also honest which is what I need).

I have started to investigate the schools in my area (of which there appear to be many) and I may come back with some more questions later (hopefully you will be able to shed more wisdom my way then).

By the way, I had a really good look around the website of Erle Montaigue last night and have to say that the video clips are absolutely mind blowing.

[Shade]

Actually I do have one other very important question that springs to mind, and that is to do with me commencing yoga in January.

I will be looking at studying Iyengar yoga, and my question is whether studying that will have any conflict with practising Tai Chi.

Obviously yoga has major benefits in terms of physical flexibility and balance, as well as health benefits, and will also lead on to a more spiritual side with meditation.

Tai Chi appears to offer the same benefits (if not greater) and I am interested if the two (although through the undertaking of different postures and forms) would actually work together. The main danger would be any conflict.

[hwardo]

Iyengar yoga will not conflict with your tai chi practice, but it probably won't help it either. The component of various yogas that is most relevant in regards to Chinese internal arts is pranayama breathwork. Prana is the Indian equivilent to qi. All yoga should lead to it, but most do not here in the states.
Kundalini yoga is supposed to be the most dramatically effective in terms of prana cultivation, but it is also thought to be a little dangerous. All in all, cross training is a good idea in general, but in my humble experience, you should not cross train in different kinds of chi or prana cultivation methods until you are fairly experienced.
Cheers-
B

[LilBunnyRabbit]

The CKD stretch is largely based in yoga, so it may well help with CKD more than with Tai Chi.

As for cross-training in chi or prana cultivation methods, it only matters if you actually believe in them. Personally I don't believe in chi other than as a visualisation method, and honestly think that the more viewpoints you gather the better.

Out of curiousity, who do you train under in Surrey?

[Shade]

Hi hwardo,

Thanks for your advice.

I wasnt looking at yoga to aid me in Tai Chi, it was purely as a way to increase flexibility and balance initially, but I take on board your points. I had intended to take up yoga before gaining such an interest in Tai Chi, and maybe need to make a decision as to whether to practice one or the other (in which case I feel Tai Chi will be a clear winner).

The Iyengar school near me is run by a lady called Ruth White who has studied directly under B.K.S. Iyengar for 25 years and does teach Pranayama in addition to Asanas, so undoubtedly it is worthy of both time and respect.

Maybe another way forward could be for me to start both and see where each path leads.

[Shade]

Hi LBR,

Thats another reason for me wanting to take up the yoga and Tai Chi - to gain much greater flexibility and balance for my current training in CKD.

The stretching exercises at the beginning of the classes are good, and I go through them every day at home with additional stretching exercises. Progress is of course slow but over time great improvements are to be had, and I have already noticed a marked improvement in my sleeping patterns if nothing else.

I study under Ralph Allison in Sutton and am enjoying it tremendously.

[Syd]

G'day Shade,

You shouldn't have any problems doing Iyengar and Taijiquan as long as you are primarily interested in the physical aspects of the yoga, much like Hatha Yoga is, and not breathwork.

I would subscribe to the view that Yoga's breathwork is a bit dodgy because it's purpose is not to circulate the prana or Qii as in Taijiquan but rather to just lead the Qi directly up the spine through the gate or chakras and into the head where it remains trapped and can cause some levels of health and energy disturbance.

Qi is a very real thing, as without it we would be dead. The harnassing of your Qi is a key element of Taijiquan and without Qi cultivation you are not doing Taijiquan. For proof of the existence of Qi in relation to Traditional Chinese Medicine read my thread on Qigong and Meridian Activation.

The Qi circulation methods of Taijiquan and Qigong are in my opinion the most effective of any in any system in the world. Those who have not experienced it generally choose not to believe it, which is fair enough really but there are thousands out there who have.

Best, Syd

[nzric]

Hi,

The yoga would help with your flexibility and concentration, but it is very different to tai chi. The health benefits of tai chi are similar to that of Pilates, as it exercises the core muscles and is concentrates more on toning and strength rather than flexibility. An elastic muscle isn't necessarily a strong (or healthy) one.

Regarding the philosophy, that's something I like about tai chi, as it is linked with the yin/yang chinese philosophy. The i ching is designed more as a reference book rather than something you read from back to front - and the hexagrams relate more to bagua than tai chi. Try to concentrate on the yin/yang. The tao te ching is excellent - take it slowly and really think about each passage. It's not supposed to make sense in a logical way, most of it is designed to be prompts for further thought.

If you start learning tai chi for the health benefits, it's a start at least. Learn the common acupressure points as that will help with the martial training. In tai chi, the principle is if you stimulate certain points they benefit parts of your body - so if you strike the points or stimulate them in reverse, it will have a negative effect on the opponent.

Even if you start to learn for the health, it's a good idea to learn the martial applications even if you're not planning to practice them. The movements were designed as practical fighting moves - I find that if you start by thinking "I'm stepping inside their guard, their arm is here so I have to have my hand at this height..." it's a good way to sharpen up your style and get your movements correct.

[Shade]

Syd,

many thanks for your advice here. Pranayama is introduced into yoga a fair way down the line (i.e. the initial aim is to get the asana's or positions pretty much off pat at first before concetrating on breathing) but I fully take on board what you are saying.

The idea of Qi absolutely fascinates me and is soimething that I definately want to learn more about.

This may sound almost soppy but I cant remember the last time I felt so excited about learning and researching something as much as this.


nzric,

many thanks to you also for your excellent guidance.

I have considered Pilates also and am intersted in the benefits that are recounted for studying it. I dont think I would have enough time to do that, yoga and Tai Chi so may even drop yoga in favour of Pilates....something for me to mull over. Maybe I should try both and see which I (and my body) prefers.

Thanks for your comments on the I Ching. I will still obtain a copy for reference i think as I have read some very interesting things about it on the net.

Do you have any other recommendations at all (i see Erle and Paul Brecher have books that they recommend on their own sites for example).

Acupressure points (and accupuncture in general) also raises my interest levels. I can see many years of learning ahead of me and as I mentioned above this actually fills me with a sense of joy. If only I had felt this way at school, I could have been Prime Minister.

[zun]

Hi Shade,

A simple question I would like to ask you before advising:

Beyond simple flexibility and balance, is there any other health reason you wish to pursue pilates, yoga, tai chi etc?

Though pilates yoga and tai chi are somewhat distantly related the benefits they would bring are very different.

[Shade]

Hi Zun,

No health problems that i know of. The initial interest I had in yoga was for the flexibility and balance benefits, but upon reading and learning more about yoga in general I became aware of the potential health benefits that it affords its practioners.

Pilates has caught my eye as well, as it also seems to offer similar rewards for those willing to invest time and energy into it.

As for Tai Chi, my interest has been ignited in the past few days purely through this site. In particular the information and video clips I have seen on Erle Montaigue's site have quite literally blown me away.

I am utterly fascinated by what I have seen, and each day I continue to uncover even more information that just seems so incredible to me I cant begin to explain it to you in words. Sorry if I sound like I am getting carried away here....just very excited about what I have found.

[nzric]

Yep - tai chi and pilates are similar for the muscle toning, but pilates won't do anything for the chi. You should check out qigong as well (although that might seem a bit weird without also doing tai chi at the same time).

Re: books - check out any tai chi book, but make sure they cover all aspects (health, medicine, martial, fitness) and don't waste your money on a book that is 3/4 full of photo demonstrations of the form. You need to learn the form from a teacher, not a book.

Also, the Book of 5 Rings (of course), Art of War (good for general knowledge), and Machiavelli's The Prince (well I like it but that says a lot about me doesn't it).

Tai chi as we know it now is less than 200 years old, so it has been influenced heavily by recent Chinese history. Check out any books about China because that will give you a good grounding for understanding the cultural principles behind lineage, philosophy and medicine.

[zun]

Hi Shade,

You sound a little like me. I'm very interested about tai chi and its benefits.

Yoga interests me and in the future will definately check it out.

I've done mat-based pilates. Mostly this is just core conditioning with some deep controlled breathing. The muscle toning is good and I think inadvertently (or as a by-product) you build up a little chi.

From a martial arts perspective, I didn't find it really offers anything close to tai chi. So practising it concurrently with tai chi, I dropped it after a few months.

With tai chi, each class or discussion (in the forum and elsewhere), amazes me. The things that are possible with tai chi (a martial art that heals for instance), dim mak strikes, chi disruption and so forth...

My only regret - I wish I had learnt tai chi years before. :) However, everything happens for a reason. Now is probably the best time for learning tai chi, since Erle is back in the UK and he's made the form easier and quicker to pickup.

Get yourself along to a erlechuan approved trainer now! The things you will learn will knock you off your feet.

Tai chi = supreme.

[Syd]

G'day again Shade,

Taijiquan and Taoist philosophy are pretty much inseperable. I understand your excitement and can totally relate. When I was 16 years old I discovered the Tao Teh Ching attributed to Lao Tzu (Zi). I think I read the book cover to cover in a matter of 3 days and I was to forever reference it since.

That same year I tried to join a Taoist monastery... but thats another story! ;)

I was also reading a copy of the I-Ching translated by Legge. The two best versions you will find are attributed to either Legge or Richard Wilhelm. In my days working for the Theosophical Society (Metaphysical Bookshop), I was generally in charge of anything regarding Eastern philosophy and I spent hours reading and studying comparative religion.

Legge is famous for being an icon within the paradigms of Occidental understanding of Chinese texts and he was among the foremost scholars to translate these works; his first of the I-Ching in 1882.

When looking at Legge's treatments of the I-Ching or his numerous Texts of Taoism, you will often find that the translations into english are accompanied by a deeper analysis of the Chinese characters and their various interpretations.

This is an excellent way to delve deeper into the cultural and linguistic aspects of not only Taoism but ancient Chinese thought and philosophy. An equally excellent work, more common and accessable to the general public, is the modern versions by Richard Wilhelm which has a foreward by Jung!

The I-Ching itself is more than just a reference work on Chinese philosophical wisdom and an essay on how society under heaven should exist in accordance to divine order and the Tao. The I-Ching began as pure oracle, whose broken (yin) and unbroken (yang) lines, most popularly dinstinguished by the Pakua (Bagua or 8 trigrams, 64 hexagrams), were originally derived and inspired from the lines on the back of a tortoises shell.

The book was used in ancient times as a pure oracle by which man could divine the best course of action to take regarding various circumstances in life. The I-Ching itself outgrew this initial stage in it's useage and when the Book of Changes had ethical values attached to the pronouncements of the
Oracle itself; it then became a book of wisdom.

In keeping with the circular nature of all things Taoist and Chinese philosophically, you have within the I-Ching a circular method of synergy which repeats systems and values both thematically and archetypically. Within Chinese philosophy we have the I Ching and the Tao Teh Ching and within those the concepts of the Tao, Wuji and Yin and Yang.

The synergy continues when these grow beyond Oracle and Philosophy and blossom into Traditional Chinese Medicine, Qi, Qigong for healing which still maintains the core principles of the philosophy. We see the fundamental outgrowth of these themes in Martial Arts, most particularly Taijiquan.

Taiji Representing all the principles contained within the I-Ching and the Tao Teh Ching in remaining circular and yeilding, balanced and supreme.

Baguazhang representing the finer aspects of the I-Ching and focussing on the Trigrams themselves, still maintaining it's faithfulness to the nature of the circular and principles contained within the Tao.

Hsing I (Xing Yi), representing the emphasis on the 5 elements and their cycle of birth and destruction and still remaining faithfull to the themes inherent within the Tao and the philosophy of the great Wuji.

So when we examine these classics of Taoism and Confucianism we are looking at a complete system which covers every aspect of existence in literally universal terms and principles. If you are in pursuit of the Tao you are immersing yourself in more than individualistic aspects, but rather you are entering a totally synergistic complete system of universal thought.

It is language, wisdom, philosophy, ethics, culture, living, dying, acceptance, judgement, health, combat, self defence, art, language and oracle all rolled into one. I could spend hours discussing all these aspects more deeply but it is a mammoth task. For now I'll just give you an idea of some titles I can recommend.

As an introduction to idea's and general philosophy I'd begin with Richard Wilhelms editions. If your feeling mentally agile then get stuck into the two volumes of Legge's Texts of Taoism. Vol 1 has The Tao Teh Ching of Lao Tzu and the Writings of Chuang Tzu.

You will also find this series known as the Sacred Books of China. Vol 2 has The T'ai Shang Tractate and the Writings of Chuang Tzu. If you want understand Confucian thought I recommend Legge again in his translation of the Works of Mencius. Also Legge's translation of the Confucian Analects, Great Learning and Doctrine of the Mean.

Remeber, that with any of the Legge works you get large ammounts of footnotes and analysis of the Chinese characters regarding the texts. In the last two you also get the complete Chinese characters in text along side the english translations.

For more easy reading look into a work by Christmas Humphries called 'Walk On'. This is an excellent work in general which has it's root in Zen Buddhism, essentially the same thing as Cha'n in China.

I can also recommend a work called "Awakening the Tao" by Liu I-Ming (1737), who was a Taoist adept and student of Taoism, Confucianism and Buddhism. This work is translated by Thomas Cleary, another name you will see popping up with some regularity regarding the Shambala Dragon classics series of works.

There are many more works I have floating around, but for now, thats enough to keep anyone going for the next ten years. I have some wonderful texts that are relative only to martial arts but I'll quit gabbing for now and provide those upon request.

Enjoy your exploration into Taoist arts and Sciences and... welcome!

Best, Syd

[zun]

Wow! Thanks for info Syd.

You're a walking vessel of information. :)

[Syd]

No worries Zun, I'm glad you found it useful and I hope it's of use to whosoever loves the Tao. ;)

[Shade]

Wow what can I say...

nzric - thanks for you advice and pointers and also for taking the time to answer. I read about your heavy schedule at the moment so really do appreciate your time in replying.

Zun - yes it does indeed sound like I am following in your footsteps. I have been looking into Erle schools, and at the moment it appears the nearest to me is Paul Brecher in London (although when I say near I mean about 1.5 hours away). I am looking for one a bit nearer but may have to do a few treks up town.

Syd - I cannot express enough gratitude to you for the time you have taken to respond with such an amount of information. Thank you from the bottom of my heart for providing me with so much material to investigate. And i'll ask you for more literature in about a decade, ok? :D

[dmiller575]

Shade,

While I agree with everything said so far I thought we all got a bit lost on one of your questions.

You wanted to know if you started doing Tai Chi Chuan for health and then wanted to move into the MA aspects would that become a problem.

Once you track down a potential teacher ask them if they are qualified to teach all aspects of Tai Chi Chuan including the MA aspects and do they teach all aspects in their classes. If you get a clear YES ( with an almost insulted tone ) then you are probably OK if on the other hand you get a wishy washy inconclusive answer then walk away politely as you will only get the health side and that is if you are lucky.

Tai Chi Chuan is very good for your health and the MA side tends to be even better for your health. If you find the right class/teacher they will teach you a happy mix of the two that ought to fit your needs.

However I think it would be almost impossible for you to start with a class/teacher that only teaches the health aspects and then try to move into the MA aspects if it means finding another class/teacher able to do that.

I can't comment on the Yoga/Pilates/Tai Chi Chuan issue as I lack the knowlege.

I would say that the Tai Chi Chuan and Chi Kung that I have seen do miss out on stretching so if that is a requirement then you will need to look beyond them.

All the best

[Syd]

Regarding Taiji and stretching I'll quote myself...

and would respectfully add that within forms in Taijiquan you are frequently performing positions and structures which are dedicated to stretching, toning and opening the joints.

Most people can't do a straight right or left heel kick, level at waist height whilst keeping the standing leg perfectly straight and then straightening the kicking leg at the same time. Add to that the standing leg is facing 90 degree's to the extended kicking leg, this is serious opening of the joints, toning and stretching all at once.

I could name numerous positions within the forms of Yang style which force you to challenge your body on many levels. Many people find it very difficult to perform Snake Creeps Down correctly whilst maintaining a vertical spine.

At the end of the day if you perform your forms in Yang style correctly you don't need Yoga. The reason for flexibility is to allow greater fluidity of movement and looseness when striking. I think flexibility is part of a larger jiben gong but it is not an end in itself. You still need to know how to fight.

Best, Syd

[zun]

Shade,

Learning under Paul Brecher is more than worth the 3 hour round trip :)

Best email Paul Brecher. He may be able to recommend teachers (perhaps his graduates :) more local to yourself.

Good luck

[Shade]

Hey zun, had a look at Paul Brecher's site and a lot of excellent info on there.

I have sent him an email about classes etc and need to sort out what I am going to do.

Thanks for your good advice and encouragement, it means a lot.

:D

[nzric]

Paul's a good guy, I've met and practiced with him a few times.

Paul is a respected TCM practitioner and puts a lot of emphasis on the health side, so he can steer you in the right path for your tai chi studies.

[Shade]

From what I can gather Paul is the nearest teacher to me for WTBA, and I am excited about meeting him after reading the book on his site.

Mind you, with Erle now over here in the UK there may be some more teachers appearing over the coming years.

[moondog]

hi shade,

this is just regarding your question on whether concentrating on the health aspect will cause problems later on if you wish to move on to the MA aspect of tai chi... in my experience there shouldn't be any conflict... practice of the form, which is the base of all tai chi practice, greatly improves health... teachers who do not teach the MA aspect will teach you the form and stop there... however the form is in itself part of the MA aspect... it loosens you up and gives you the fluidity needed to use tai chi as a martial art... when you start learning the MA aspects from someone else you will already have the basic suppleness and fluidity needed since practicing the form correctly will give you this... you really cannot separate the MA aspect of tai chi from the health aspects... even if you only do the form that in itself is part of the martial training because of the movement of the form... i hope this helps :) if anyone can correct me please do... this is my understanding

[alienlovechild]

Hi Shade,
Where are you? Maybe we Montaigue practitioners could point you to a school, as you seem to be interested in Erle's stuff.