[China] Vintage photos of Chinese weapons in use

[slipthejab]

For the Chinese martial arts/weapons aficianado's I've come across two interesting photos that show Chinese weapons and possibly martial arts.

Taken by a the Swiss, Christian missionary Wilhelm F. Maisch in Meilin, China. The names of many places on older maps and photos can be diffiucult to trace as places have often changed names or have been transliterated under a different systems from time to time... but from what I was able to find the photos that were labeled 'Meilin' appear to be from Jiangxi Sheng/jiangsu Sheng/Xuzhou (Suzhou?) which is in the city of Chiang-su (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Changzhou) (known formerly in Enlgish as Changchow) in the Jiangsu province. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jiangsu)

Maybe they can offer some insight to the state of martial weapons or martial culture in China at that time.

Photo: #1
Title: 'Fencing at New Years'
Date: 1904-1920
Photographer: Wilhelm F. Maisch
Process: b/w positive, paper print, gelatin-silver

This shot shows two young Chinese bearing weapons (and Manchu style haircuts - later to become synonymous with the Chinese coolie labor).. and a cute, fat and very dark skinned baby looking on. The figure on the left bears what looks like a rattan shield and a short broad bladed knife. There appears to be no guard on the knife and it looks to have a very short hilt or handle. Figure number two is bearing a pole arm of some sort... with a broad blade.

On one hand both weapons look more like farm tools than they do like martial weapons (though perhaps there was some crossover?).

[slipthejab]

Photo: #2
Title: 'New Year tournament'
Date: 1934-1939
Photographer: Wilhelm F. Maisch
Process: b/w positive, paper print, gelatin-silver

This photo shows two people battling it out. Possibly with the same weapons shown in the other photograph... at least the rattan shield is there. The shield bearer appears to be countering with some sort of sword - maybe the same short sword from the other photo. The attacker looks to have a polearm of somesort... again - maybe the same as the other photo. It's hard to tell but from the background it appears there is musical or drum accompaniment to the battle. There appears to be a stack of weapons behind the fighters.. in fact it looks as if one of the participants is either putting one down or picking one up.

I find this a very interesting photo in that it seems there are so very few photos of Chinese weapons in action.

Anyone that can shed some more light on these photos please let me know. I'd be curious to hear everyones thoughts on the weapons and possible links to the martial arts from these particular areas of China.

Additionally if anyone can confirm that Meilin is Jiangxi Sheng, China it would be much appreciated.

[19thlohan]

Looks like a sheild and buterfly sword vs a guan do (kwan do) to me. Nice photos.

[slipthejab]

Yeah that's pretty much what I thought... how does that match up with the location that the photos were taken in? Does the guan do vary in terms of pole length? The pole section on the one pictured in photo #1 seem very short compared to what I've seen.
I thought the guan do was pretty much in use all over China but I wasn't so sure about the butterfly swords/knives. Additionally I hadn't seen butterfly swords without some sort of guard. Perhaps these were locally (village blacksmith) made versions?:confused:

I was also curious to get everyones thoughts on the picture #2... surely that wouldn't have been a full contact battle... not with live blades. Would it? :eek:
So which leaves me wondering if it was

A) choreographed fighting (essentially Wu Shu) or theatrical combatives

or

B) The combatants are some type of travelling performers

:confused:

[Su lin]

Interesting stuff Slip! You still stuck at home in the monsoon? :D

[slipthejab]

Actually no Typhoon hit yesterday... so today is calm. I guess I decided we needed some interesting threads here. :)

[Dan Bian]

The first picture I would say the short blade is a butterfly knife, and the pole-arm is a Pu-Dao. Further than that, I couldn't really say.

[19thlohan]

The first pic looks posed for and I think the pole is longer than it appears in the photo. Sort of a foreshortening effect based on the angle you're viewing it from. There are actually all sorts of da dao or long handled broadswords and they come in varying lengths. The pu dao is relatively short and you usually hold just under the blade with one hand and at the very end with the other. The blade design says guan do though and they are usually 6 feet or more.

Butterfly swords can be found in northern styls but they are far less common. Not really sure about the hand guard.

The second pic looks to be a traditional 2 man set to demonstrate the techniques of both weapons.

[slipthejab]

I'd guess the first pic was posed as well. A bit rigid for anything that was impromptu. Though I'm not so sure about the foreshortening effect in the photo. It's more of a profile we're not getting much if any foreshortening of the polearm. At least to my eye it's not anywhere near the length of the Chinese polearms I'm used to seeing. Having just looked up a bunch of reference on the Pu Dao... it seems to be more along those lines. Though the blade appears smaller and less stylized than what I've seen in a quick search of the Guan Dao. Though... given their age (I don't know but I'm guessing youngish) that maybe the polearm was shortened to fit them? But that's just speculation and may not make much sense.

[19thlohan]

The people are standing in profile but the weapon appears to be held diagnaly. Also notice he has one hand at the bottom of the weapon, his arms are fairly wide apart and there is at about a foot or a foot and a half from his upper hand to the bottom of the blade. That's too long to be a pu dao. The term Kwan dao gets used way to loosely. Basically there are spring autum knives and green dragon knives. The spring autum knife is a specific blade type on the end of a pole.

http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h71/m-col/Misc/00aa.jpg

General Kwan's personal spring autum knife had the shape of a dragons head biting down on the blade as part of the hand guard. After he made the weapon famous others copied the design and refer to it as a green dragon knife.

http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h71/m-col/Misc/00aab.jpg

The shape of the blade in both are basically the same, a short saber blade with a slightly seraded back side and a small hook for trapping and locking weapons, and that is what most people call kwan do or guan do. Although the blade in the pic you posted looks a little thiner than typical it appears to be of the spring autum desighn.

[19thlohan]

It's tuff to seperate the blade from the back ground in that photo but this is what I think I see.

http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h71/m-col/Misc/zzaa.jpg

[slipthejab]

Ah nice photo edit. Good info on the weapons as well. I'll see if I can upload a high resolution section of that particular area of the photo. :)