so...whats the point?

[killbill]

I was thinking...
the kind of person you will run into in a fight will most likely not be another martial artist. think about it, most martial artists are the type least likely to start a fight. so once you are generally proficient (5 years maybe) whats the point of moving on to higher levels? This conversation assumes that you are studying martial arts purely for SD and not for self improvement (its for the sake of the argument, dont argue with it)

[booksie_girl]

True they're not likely to be MAists, but you don't have to be a MAist to be a good figter. MA help someone develop their fighting ability, but some people have huge natural talent, and if they've never trained with rules, they're far less likely to hesitate before doing something outside those rules.

[SoKKlab]

Then study PUC (Practical Unarmed Combat) which aims to create Forward motion in response to an attack and doesn't have any directly defensive movements. As utilised by Carl Cestari etc.

This is everything boiled down to it's simplest form.

[Shade]

Maybe you dont have to if you dont want to, but would it not be a natural progression anyway?

For example, once you have become proficient at defending yourself, you should not really stop practicing your art because over time you will strat to become less proficient. Which is kind of defeating the whole point.

Imagine after 5 years you were a 1st Dan, you could i guess just carry on at that level and never take another grading, but after time wouldnt you want to take a grading? Maybe not but you may find yourself taking them in any case, and surely you still continue to learn new techniques over time anyway? So even if you were still only practising for self defence you may still find practical uses in continuing.

Just a thought.

[Disciple]

The point of training further would be to improve your already exsisting techniques, stay in condition, and keep the metal responses in your mind. You may have studied for 5 years, but the thug that watns your money may have been on the streets for 15.

[pesilat]

To paraphrase a friend of mine:
We spend the first 6 months to a year of training learning to beat 90% of the populace.
We spend the next few years learning to beat the next 9%.
We spend the rest of our lives learning to beat that last 1%.

But, really, to answer your question, I think that continued development comes from going beyond the "self-defense only" mindset.

That may still be the primary focus. But if that's your only reason for training then, really, there is no point in continuing to train hard. You could go train once a month and maintain a good level of proficiency.

Mike

[snailfist]

There are also people who learn MAs of an attacking nature so that they can become better at being the kind of people we train to defend ourselves against. For example, I know that the 9/11 hijackers trained for about 6 months in knife-based self defense before they used it to such a fell end. Similarly, a person who studies an MA may do so because they find themself in a lot of fights. So i guess that it is more probable that we find ourself against a trained opponent than the implications of training on the decent may suggest.

[pesilat]

Originally posted by snailfist
There are also people who learn MAs of an attacking nature so that they can become better at being the kind of people we train to defend ourselves against. For example, I know that the 9/11 hijackers trained for about 6 months in knife-based self defense before they used it to such a fell end. Similarly, a person who studies an MA may do so because they find themself in a lot of fights. So i guess that it is more probable that we find ourself against a trained opponent than the implications of training on the decent may suggest.

Actually, RE: 9/11 - I've only heard of one guy who did any knife-based training.

I think most people in America (can't speak for other places) have had some sort of training in their life. Whether it was TKD as a kid, boxing at a local gym, wrestling at high school, or whatever. And most guys have been in a scuffle or two by the time they reach adulthood so while their experience may be limited, they do have some.

But I worry less about the guy with 6 months of training than the guy who has absolutely none. The guy with 6 months is going to be much more predictable and, therefore, easier to deal with.

But, really, I don't worry about it overly much at all. I know that the chances of me having to fight someone of my skill level or better is slim to none. I also know that people at much lower skill levels than mine can be very dangerous in their own way.

All I can do is train to be the best that I can. If something happens, all I can do is the best that I can. If it's enough, good. If not, fine - I couldn't have done anything more anyway so no point in crying over it.

Only time I'd be upset is if I wound up in the hospital and knew I could have done something more. Knew that I passed up an opportunity, for instance, to take out an opponent early in the fight and that guy came back later and was a deciding factor. Something like that.

If I've done the best that I can, then there's no reason second-guessing my actions.

Mike

[aikiMac]

Say you get mugged. Fight or give up the money?
I read a letter-to-the-editor in "Aikido Today Magazine" that got me thinking about this from an angle I had not considered.

Monthly tuition at my present dojo is $50. That's $600/year. Suppose that I have trained there for 4 years (so that we can assume that I have some fighting skill). That's $2400. Add one $75 seminar per year ($300 total) and I've spent $2700 on my "kung fu fighting skills." How much money is in my wallet when I'm mugged? I don't know, but let's say it's payday so I'm carrying $300 cash.

Query, did I spend $2700 to save $300? Hmm. I would hope not. Rather silly if I did. But for what did I spend that $2700?

[pesilat]

Originally posted by aikiMac
Say you get mugged. Fight or give up the money?
I read a letter-to-the-editor in "Aikido Today Magazine" that got me thinking about this from an angle I had not considered.

Monthly tuition at my present dojo is $50. That's $600/year. Suppose that I have trained there for 4 years (so that we can assume that I have some fighting skill). That's $2400. Add one $75 seminar per year ($300 total) and I've spent $2700 on my "kung fu fighting skills." How much money is in my wallet when I'm mugged? I don't know, but let's say it's payday so I'm carrying $300 cash.

Query, did I spend $2700 to save $300? Hmm. I would hope not. Rather silly if I did. But for what did I spend that $2700?

Simple. You spent $2700 to sate your sadomasochistic appetites :p Sorry, couldn't resist.

No, actually, you spent that money learning why it's smarter to walk away when you can.

As my dad puts it, "In a real fight, there's no such thing as a winner - only a lower hospital bill." With that mindset, I always prefer to avoid a fight because I don't want a hospital bill at all. But if forced, then my training helps ensure that I end up with the lower hospital bill.

Mike

[47Ronin]

To me- To become a better person in everything I do ;)

[JohnG]

As my dad puts it, "In a real fight, there's no such thing as a winner - only a lower hospital bill."

Nice one! We don't (or shouldn't) do MA to kick peoples butts, we do it so we won't get OUR butts kicked.

Walking away IS a form of self defence

[Knight_Errant]

Not being martial artists does not stop them from pushing you over, putting their knee on your chest and punching you. Walking away is not always the answer: what if he stabs you in the back? or exectutes the popular 'judas' manouvere?

[JohnG]

I'm not saying you should always walk away, it is merely another tool. And it would be the first one I would pick if at all possible.

[stump]

You never know who you will run into...

A young guy in England got cut off in his car a few years ago....he got out to sort this guy out....the other guy was pushing past middle aged. Little did he know he was mouthing off to one of Londons most notorious gangsters....

How could he have known? All he saw was an older guy with a bad attitude.....he died for his misjudgement.

Personally I try to work from the perspective of assuming the worst and trying to prepare for it...so anything else should have been accounted for somewhere in the training.

To use a racing analogy....if you train to race David Coulthard you may never beat him but you should be in a better position to beat 95% of other racers...

[pesilat]

Originally posted by Knight_errant
Not being martial artists does not stop them from pushing you over, putting their knee on your chest and punching you. Walking away is not always the answer: what if he stabs you in the back? or exectutes the popular 'judas' manouvere?

"Walking away" doesn't mean literally turning your back on a potential threat and walking away - at least not to me.

It implies a whole slew of possibilities that range from avoidance before the fact, deescalation, and many other possibilities based on the situation.

But even still, walking away isn't always possible.

To me, though, the ability to fight is only one very small portion of "self-defense."

"Self-defense" means getting home safely each night. That means that I'm not in the hospital or morgue, but it also means that I'm not in jail or have a pending court appearance. If I have any of those things then at least some of my "self-defense" efforts failed.

Self-defense, to me, starts with avoiding, when possible, places where trouble is likely to happen. Then being as aware as possible of my surroundings (which includes potential threats, weapons, and exits) at all times. Then, if something happens and I can safely get to an exit, I will. Failing that, then I'll try to grab a weapon - which, to me, means "anything that can be used to prevent me from bleeding, brusing, or breaking." Then I'll fight (whether I have a weapon or not) until I can safely exit.

Mike

[aikiMac]

No, actually, you spent that money learning why it's smarter to walk away when you can.


To me- To become a better person in everything I do

That's what I was thinking too. Money well spent.