[Choi Kwang Do] Why southpaw?

[Scaramouch]

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I am under the impression that CKD promotes assuming a southpaw fighting stance (i.e. right foot forward). Drills and patterns always start southpaw.

Coming from other MAs I am slightly surprised by this as being right-handed (like the majority of us) I feel more comfortable in an orthodox (i.e. left foot forward) stance. Being able to use my (relatively) weaker, left side to block/jab and save my right-sided power punches/kicks for countering. If, as a right-hander, you fight southpaw surely you are tieing up your best side in terms of power for blocking, jabbing or snap kicks? I suppose in an ideal World you would train to get both sides equally as powerful but after 10 years in MAs I haven't managed it.

At the end of the day I guess its down to what side you favour, and personal preference, but are there any senior CKD-ers out there willing to give some wise words on the subject?

[morphus]

I am right handed, I do lead with my right more often, but i do change when 'sparring', to try & use both & to keep the opposition guessing - blocking with either hand....,anyhow - any block that does its job is a good block - who cares how it looks?.

I personally feel it doesn't matter too much what you lead with, as when a real attack comes, you cannot be in the stance you chose.
An attack can take many forms & distance is usually closed by the time you've seen it coming - lets face it if you see it coming from a decent distance don't you also have time to avoid it? Not always of course.

I train for defence of either side, left, right or from the rear etc - who knows? You may not have the luxury of using sparring techniques anyway - realism has a tendency to be at hyper speed.

[amiller127]

Its generally up to the instructor which stance you start in for defence, close rangem shield and focus mitt drills, although students shouldnt just stay in the one stance all of the time throughout the drill.
Its also up to them which stance they want you to be in for doing techniques.
I guess out of habit most have got used to starting with right and then switching to left.

But, if you do the patterns and stuff according to syllabus you should always start patterns so that you are using your right hand to block for the first technique. As you are at Il Dan and have rear hand blocks, that means you start in a left fighting stance for some of them.

Also, speed drills are meant to be started in left stance. GMC was explaining this the other day. Its not a massive thing, but he felt that it balanced out a bit and made sure that we strike a balance in what sides we use. So if your instructor is starting in right stance for speed drills then let them know that you heard that GMC wants them started in left stance.

Hope that answers your question.

Personally im happy with either side and am right handed, but have always liked to lead with my right, even before CKD. used to lead with my right foot on my skatboard and my friends thought i was weird :cool:

[zun]

From a boxing perspective, southpaws are harder (more awkward?) to fight.

[Scaramouch]

Yes, it is true in boxing that southpaws are seen as awkward but there are not many right-handed boxers, to my knowledge, that have trained to fight exclusively in southpaw stance. I can only remember Marvin Hagler was pretty good fighting southpaw but he would switch from orthodox to southpaw throughout some of his fights – which the commentators would “marvel” at (see what I did there?).

When I first started doing CKD defence drills I would always automatically step back with my right foot to assume left foot front stance. I had to consciously un-learn this and step back with my left, but it still feels awkward. I guess I’m just showing personal preference but I suppose I would feel happier if the syllabus mentioned defence drills were done on both sides, if our final goal is to be equally strong off either side.

Note: that in one of the MAP magazine articles:

http://www.martialartsplanet.com/magazine/articles/morningwithjbore.htm

- Jimmy Bore’s southpaw CKD stance is remarked upon, so its not just me trying to be difficult – I’m genuinely interested to understand the rationale that all.

[David]

I don't study CKD but we also have a right-foot forward. In our forms, it's right twice for every left. In partner-based technique and power training it's an equal ratio.

Because we're not boxing, we don't think in those stylistic terms of position and potential.

Rgds,
David

[SoKKlab]

Probably because 80 percent of the worlds population is Right Handed, therefore they are generally weaker on their Left side and therefore will lead with their Left.

So by leading with the Right hand they put more emphasis into developing their left side to hit with a proportionally equal power, by making it the rear hand for Crosses etc.

In Jeet Kune Do they generally lead with their right because they are leading with their strongest hand nearest the target.

I would surmise that the CKD reasoning may be that:

If naturally your left side is 'weaker' because you favour your right, making people pay special attention to their left side and left hand side functions will make them better all-round fighters.

You are only as good as your weakest side.

[Scaramouch]

Yes, I had also wondered if the reason to lead off the right was to make you develop power in your left side techniques. This would make good sense in terms of training. However, in a self-defence situation, if an attack was coming toward me from the front (as a right hander) I would always, naturally step back with my right foot.

When I asked a CKD instructor the reason for stepping back with the left to assume sothpaw stance and he said it was because you should block/lead off your strongest side - not that we are doing this for training purposes, to improve left side power.

I know ideally you want to be as good off both sides but IMO its impossible, you are born either right or left sided.

Think about it, you don't see many professional sports men and women as good off either side. They may train so they can use their weaker side but they always show a preference.

[Shade]

Personally speaking I find it an exceptional idea to be able to fight off either side.

I have recently started studying CKD and have had no problems in going into a right front stance, even being right handed. I have noticed that it actually feels more comfortable for me than in a left front stance, and i find blocking with my stronger arm (my right) to be easier. Perhaps this comes from my past Iaido training in which you tend to use the right hand and arm more with your sword.

In any case, bearing in mind that in an unprovoked attack you may be attacked from either side (that is to say that your attacker may be on your left or right and you may not be able to adopt your preferred stance) it makes utter sense to feel both comfortable and confident in your ability to defend and attack with either arm.

[Tosh]

Originally posted by Scaramouch

I know ideally you want to be as good off both sides but IMO its impossible, you are born either right or left sided.

and of course those of us who are ambidextrous ;)

This may be strange but I am left handed person who prefers to fight in a right leg back stance.

I want my most leg in front because it better at reacting quicker and more accuarately, while I can use my right leg in the build up to breaking down a defence.

For example,

Low checking/pressing pushing kick to knee, left jab, right leg to waist, reverse turning at head height.

I find having my stronger leg in ffront usually does the initial damage. Then switch to the right to get caught up in a counter then deliver the third more powerfull strike.

BUt everybody is different. :D

[thehaggishunter]

Originally posted by Scaramouch
I suppose I would feel happier if the syllabus mentioned defence drills were done on both sides, if our final goal is to be equally strong off either side.


Pil Sung Sir,

In our class we do defence drills on both sides, usually its a few on right side, then switch to left side.

I find it helps with getting used to using both arms blocking.

Just my personal thought.

[LilBunnyRabbit]

My first art was Choi Kwang Do, and I found that the right-footed stance seemed just as natural as anything else. I think any awkwardness with it tends to be more due to prior training than because the stance is unnatural as it were.

As to why its done that way, my best guess would be as people have said, that Choi likes to teach blocking with the strongest hand first. Remember that rear hand techniques are not that much more powerful than front hand techniques if your front punches are being thrown correctly, so which stance you're in shouldn't really matter.

Both my old instructor and my new instructor tend to start us on technique practice from either stance at random, making us swap on a irregular basis, so that we get used to not only being in either stance, but swapping between them to suit the occasion.


Note: that in one of the MAP magazine articles:

http://www.martialartsplanet.com/ma...ngwithjbore.htm

- Jimmy Bore’s southpaw CKD stance is remarked upon, so its not just me trying to be difficult – I’m genuinely interested to understand the rationale that all.

Wow. I didn't realise that was still up there. Man that was a long time ago. Great, now I feel old again. I wish people would stop doing this to me. :p

[Andrew Green]

I'm not a CKD practitioner, but I am a right handed south paw.

- Wrestling. Yes, boxing is usually done strong side back, but wrestling is usually done in a neutral or strong side forward. I shoot with my right, I also sprawl better with a right lead.

- Clinching. When I clinch, I'm generally right foot forward, that is the side I enter with. Having the dominate hand out front is helpful in obtaining a good tie up.

- Strong jab. I like my right handed jab :D

- Weapons. When I use a weapon, it is in my strong hand, and my strong hand is forward.

- My prefered range is not seperated, but clinched or on the ground. As soon as I start getting hit thats where I'm going.

- I will switch to a orthadox stance to unload some heavy punches once and a while, thats just not where I prefer to be most of the time.

[pesilat]

I can't speak for CKD but from a Kali perspective (as Andre Green mentioned with weapons), we tend to lead with the longer weapon - which is usually in our strong hand. When we have weapons of equal length (including empty hands), we tend to keep the same lead.

In the Silat, Kuntao Silat, and Shen Chuan that I study, we don't really have a preferred lead. We try to train both so that however we're standing when attacked, that's where we fight from.

Mike

[dancing dave]

hello, posting virgin. so if i mess up, bare with me. Hi Dale, fancy meeting you here.

anyway to the point. CKD is a defensive art, based on the idea that your first reaction to being attacked is to step away and hide behind your hands. auto responding to you strongest side, left or right. Why south paw? the majority are right handed. So when a wasp flies into your face, a right hander starts flapping his right hand, lefty flaps his left.
Alternate stances for forms and drills, doubles our defensive effectiveness by having twice the tools.

[amiller127]

Originally posted by dancing dave
hello, posting virgin. so if i mess up, bare with me. Hi Dale, fancy meeting you here.

anyway to the point. CKD is a defensive art, based on the idea that your first reaction to being attacked is to step away and hide behind your hands. auto responding to you strongest side, left or right. Why south paw? the majority are right handed. So when a wasp flies into your face, a right hander starts flapping his right hand, lefty flaps his left.
Alternate stances for forms and drills, doubles our defensive effectiveness by having twice the tools.

Well speak of the devil and he turns up!!

Hi Dai. I was talking to Jamie about you this week. I wanted to ask you some questions. Get in touch.

My email is CKDWales@yahoo.co.uk

Not every day I get to see one of my old instructors post. How are you doing these days? Guess I have to behave now your checking out the forum :D

[morphus]

Hi Dancing Dave & welcome to the forum.:cool:

[dancing dave]

By the way morphus, comment on your bt line. "live a long time" not all its cracked up to be;)

[morphus]

Well, i'm getting there - it's something my dad used to say - doesn't say it much now he's older - you could be right there Dave:D

[skippingstone]

As I asked in the JKD forum... Doesn't your power come mostly from your back leg? So assuming a right hander, doesn't a right foot forward stance use the weak leg to generate the power?

[LilBunnyRabbit]

If you only use one leg to generate power, yes. Since we use the entire body (or as much of it as physically possible) to generate power in our punches, nope, doesn't generate less power. In fact many people find that their front punches are more powerful than their rear ones.

[Shade]

I know from the comments I have had from shield partners in class that some of my punches from my leading hand are very powerful.

As LBR says, the power isn't coming from legs alone.

[skippingstone]

Wait, how is it physically possible to generate momentum toward your attacker with your front leg? To illustrate, pick up your back leg without using it to push toward your opponent. How can you not fall backward? :) And doesn't your front leg have to be forward of your center of gravity in order to stop you after the contact/miss/block? If not, you'd be woefully overcommitted in a reckless lunge, and you should volunteer to get tossed around in demonstrations. :p

I understand it's not just the legs, but as far as ability to generate momentum, the legs can't be beat. Hence our usual two-legged locomotion rather than swinging from tree to tree or slithering around. :D

Edit: On the other hand, in order to insure you never overcommit, maybe your stronger side should be in control of stopping you? Hmmm...

[Shade]

Good questions, although if you stand in a stance you can actually punch with either hand (with a lot of power) just by moving frokm your waist alone, without having to move either leg at all, or move any weight on or off either leg at all. Hence it is not leg power, more coming from the centre of your body.

But hey i've onlt beein doing CKD for just over 3 months so what do I know?

Maybe some of the more experienced here can answer this better than I.

[LilBunnyRabbit]

Wait, how is it physically possible to generate momentum toward your attacker with your front leg? To illustrate, pick up your back leg without using it to push toward your opponent. How can you not fall backward? And doesn't your front leg have to be forward of your center of gravity in order to stop you after the contact/miss/block? If not, you'd be woefully overcommitted in a reckless lunge, and you should volunteer to get tossed around in demonstrations.

Stand on one leg. Now hop forwards.

If you can't generate forward momentum using your forward leg, then you just did something impossible.

Its hard to explain online, the trick is to use the stance as a 'spring' for front punches, but that suggests more windup than there actually is. I'll make one more shot.

Go into front stance (similar to boxers stance). Turn your hips so that your weight is mostly over your front leg, which is slightly bent at the knee (a little more than standard for the stance). Then 'bounce' back.

That's the best way I can put it, and completely incorrect. If there's a Choi school near you then I'm sure they'd be more than happy to demonstrate and explain.

[Scaramouch]

Having a little bit more CKD experience since starting this thread I can give an update on my views of right vs left foot front stance.

I would still say my most powerful techniques are right, rear hand and foot - being right handed. I don't think that will ever change with me. Don't know if I am unusual, but I am quite happy and competent at blocking with my left. Stepping back/away with my right foot seems a more natural and faster way to evade an attack.

However, after more CKD training I would also admit that I have added considerable power to not only my left, rear hand and feet techniques but also my front hand techniques on both sides. This has given me much more confidence during defence and sheild drills and I feel much happier performing techniques in both right and left foot front stances - so a big plus from a personal perspective.

That said, if I was cornered and really had to take someone out in self-defence situation I'd try my best to be in left foot front stance and give them a few solid, right rear hand or foot techniques.

[LilBunnyRabbit]

That said, if I was cornered and really had to take someone out in self-defence situation I'd try my best to be in left foot front stance and give them a few solid, right rear hand or foot techniques.

That's why we teach both stances after all. :)

[dancing dave]

Originally posted by LilBunnyRabbit


Its hard to explain online, the trick is to use the stance as a 'spring' for front punches, but that suggests more windup than there actually is. I'll make one more shot.

Go into front stance (similar to boxers stance). Turn your hips so that your weight is mostly over your front leg, which is slightly bent at the knee (a little more than standard for the stance). Then 'bounce' back.
[/B]

Nice one LilBunnyRabbit, A credit to your school and your instructor. I Couldn`t of put it better myself.

Surprising for me, was training with Boxers. They think of CKD stances as being to short, and the ability to swich from orthodox to southpaw they admire, but duck and weave in prefrence to blocking, but they call their front punches, jabs and they can be knockouts. So they develope power off the front.