sport or martial art or both?

[judojedi]

read the thread 'judo TMA or MMA' before voting on this poll.

if you can find the time please state wether you practice judo and if so what grade are you and for how long have you studied.

this poll will probably go against what i think, but i would like to know peoples thoughts on this. cheers

[Adam]

I currently dabble in competition orientated judo.
In my opinion, judo is more sport than martial art given the restrictions of the frankly very bad competition rules (one throw ends match, only locks at elbows are allowed)
That being said, judo throwing seems to me to be a great weapon in the arsenal of any fighter or martial artist as they can be very damaging when done off-mat. So I class judo as a sport useful for fighting.
This is of course just my opinion

[Sub zero]

it's not purely ment for sport or MA. So both for me.

50/50 who's gonna chnge it?

[YODA]

It's a sporting martial art :p

I have no problem when people call something liie Judo, Muay Thai, Boxing, BJJ a SPORT.

My problem starts when they call then "JUST" a sport as if contesting against full resistance takes something away when actually it enhances it.

[WhiteWizard]

Why would it not be an MA it was developed as an MA okay some people compete in it but that doesn't make it a sport only

[judojedi]

my thoughts are, as you probably know if you read the tma/mma thread, is that judo is a sport.

think about this, if its a self defence or a martial art why do we only learn things that are legal in competition, surley if its a martial art, then hand strikes, kicks, leg/wrist/ankle/nerve locks would all be taught aswell.
maybe some clubs teach these things but its not judo. the training sylabus for AJA BJA and BJC only have techniques that you can use in competition (kata aside although form contests do exist).

it seems to me that 'martial arts' has become a generic term for any fighting system. which is understandable owing to the trouble i've had trying to explain the difference between martial 'arts' and martial 'ways' and sports.

how many owners of a fighting club would advertise their system as a martial way? it sounds crap don't it. no one knows what the hell it is or what the difference is to the much cooler sounding and highly commercial term of 'martial arts'.
IMHO this is why you all think judo is an art, cos past judoka's, maybe your sensai or your sensai's sensai just couldn't be bothered trying to explain the difference or they wanted to say: ' I'm a martial artist' in stead of ' I'm a sports man or 'I'm a martial wayist' then have to explain the difference to confused student or confused someone else.
when people ask me about my martial art i decline the opportunity to correct them as its a waste of time and just tell them about judo, however i make sure my class know the difference.

this is my last post on the subject as its geting boring now, but i'd like to thank the people who have posted here and in the other thread as the judo boards were dead before this discussion came up.

[Jim]

I voted 'both' but will qualify this by saying 'it depends on the instructor'.

[Freeform]

BJC only have techniques that you can use in competition (kata aside although form contests do exist).


Whilst not a BJC man myself I have a friend who is a BJC instructor, I've trained at his club and at BJC seminars with him on several occassions and know this is not the case. They teach the application of their techniques from punches and kicks, they also have a couple of wristlocks in the syllabus.

However, Judojedi, I urge you to think carefully in your response as we don't want another thread locked like the last one.

Col

[judojedi]

freeform, was the other thread being locked my fault?

i'm also an instructor in a BJC club. i know of no wristlocks at all apart from the ones i learned in taiho-jutsu.
we only administer our techniques from punches and kicks in kata, as punches and kicks dont come up anywhere else in judo (our judo anyway).

my sensai, as well as teahing his class judo, also incorporates 'self defence' from time to time. this is basically techniques from taiho-jutsu that he thinks would be helpful for his students to know: escape from headlock, release from choke, blocking/deflecting strikes and of course kote gashe (generic wrist lock). maybe your friend incorporates non-judo techniques into his classes/seminars aswell?

do you know the names of these wrist locks that are on the syllabus your friend has? do you know if its a BJC syllabus or his own.

[Freeform]

do you know if its a BJC syllabus or his own.


To be honest I don't know as I only see him from time to time these days, I'll try find out for you.

Although kote gaeshi, kote hineri and theres a third one whose name escapes me right now are in the Kodokan syllabus, if you've got Syd Hoares Ato Z of Judo they're in it, they may be in Kano's Kodokan book but its been a while since I looked at it.

Col

[judojedi]

:eek: oh really!

i'll have to have a look at that AtoZ of judo, i'll ask farther christmas for it.

pretty sure they're not in the kano's book but i will check at lunch time.

[Freeform]

Only 3 though, and he does say (and I paraphrase)

"Wrist locks are a study unto themselves, exponents wishing to learn wrist locks should take up Aikido, a martial art that specialises in them."

The A-Z is a good reference book, used with Kano's book I feel you've got method to 'learn' techniques (as far as you can learn them from a book).

The good thing with the A-Z is that it includes all the techniques that are banned in randori, like kania sami and daki age.

Col

[judojedi]

well i cant find any specific wrist locks in the kodokan but i've only had a breif look through. they're not listed in the index.

the kodokan does have (to my amasement) kicks and punches, however they are under the 'health and first aid' section and are meant to be used for exercise and flexibility.

about this AtoZ book, i have never seen it in shops is a new or old book?

[Freeform]

Pretty much everyone I now has it so it must be at least 10 yrs old.
Apparently Kano died before he could come up with a way to safely incorporate atemi into randori and this is partly where Tomiki intended his aikido form of randori to cover.

Colin

[Tosh]

I say both.

Even if you took Judo on it's own as the only style to fight with it's still a fighting style.

Certainly the argument is there that it would suck if you only played by sporting rules but none the less it is a martial way.... which leans heavily toward sport.

Does fencing fall in to this category also?

[Terry Matthes]

I don't really think it matters. If Judo works for you call it whatever you want. People are too easily offended by things like this. Spend less time fighting over what it is considered (as it really doesn't matter) and more time sharing some more positive aspects of judo.

[Freeform]

A - Z (http://sfuk.tripod.com/reviews/azjudoreview.html)

Heres a good review I found.

[judojedi]

interesting.....i now must have this book.
at under £10 it looks a bargain too.

[Knight_Errant]

as Ads says- it's a sport useful for fighting, i.e. a martial art...

[morphus]

Of course it's both.

[Scaramouch]

IMO its both.

I have done Judo as a kid and JuJitsu as an adult. The Judo techniques are exactly the same as the throws and locks/chokes taught in JuJitsu. If you perform a Judo technique in the street it is exactly the same as the JuJitsu technique. The throws will hurt just as much, the chokes will choke and the locks will break bones/joints if properly applied - its just in the street you don't let go if the guy taps out and you don't have soft mats to land on. Therefore IMO Judo is a very effective MA.

The great thing about Judo is that you can do the techniques full speed and power in the dojo without excessive injury to your partner - therefore Judo lends itself to being a "full-contact" sport. And for this reason a lot of other MA-ists have a lot of respect for Judokas as both TKD and Karate competition techniques could rarely be described as "full-contact" and effective from a self-defence perspective (but thats a whole different subject..........).

[TAPOUT]

im soon gonna have my black belt cant even remember how long ive been in it and i belive judo is an art and if kano was still around he'd throw you on your head for even asking that question

[Jim]

There are 2 classes in my area, one is a sport Judo club and the other (mine) is a self defence / close quarter combat class. It's all a matter of why you do it and how you approach it.

[Freeform]

Jim,

Do you get much cross polination between the two classes? Or do nights clash?

Col

[TheMachine]

definitely both

[Jim]

Do you get much cross polination between the two classes? Or do nights clash?
No cross trainers so far. His students all only want competition and mine only want self defence so... I have attended one of his classes and helped out... *cough* taught it *cough* ...because he asked me to come, but he charged me for it and I was a little unhappy about it so I haven't spoken much to him and avoided other 'invitations' since.

Still undecided about what I'm going to do next year. Odds are we'll be sharing the same venue and mat but on different nights. There may be some cross pollination then, but we'll see.

[Humblebee]

I apologize if i ask basic questions but what is the difference between a martial art and the martial way and the difference between sport based judo and combat or self defence based judo.thank u.

[Knight_Errant]

There is no difference. martial arts and combat sports are one and the same thing.

[notquitedead]

martial arts and combat sports are one and the same thing.
I don't think of tai chi as a combat sport. ;)
----------------------------------------

I think of judo more as a combat sport, and group it with boxing, kickboxing, wrestling, BJJ, sambo, MMA, etc.

However, if asked if those things I listed are martial arts or not, I would say that they are. It's just that those things are trained more like sports (competitively) instead of focusing on other traditional things (like kata). I know judo has kata, but I've never heard of any instructor who makes you do kata more than randori.

I also think training like you are doing a sport will help you achieve results faster. :D

I guess what I'm trying to say is that all combat sports are martial arts, but not all martial arts are combat sports (...or something like that). :confused:

[Dave Rees]

I studied Judo for just over 3 years got to blue belt (2nd kyu) I studied it for the art, I did enter quite a few competitions, but wasnt that good, mind you the last competition I entered The BJC National Grade & Vets I won a bronze, I think it was because I knew it was going to be my last one & I relaxed more!! I always looked at it as an ART but that was just my opinion.

[judojedi]

I apologize if i ask basic questions but what is the difference between a martial art and the martial way and the difference between sport based judo and combat or self defence based judo.thank u.

the difference between a martial art and a martial way is:
a martial *ART* shapes the practicioner with the techniques whereas a martial *WAY*'s techniques are shaped by the practicioner.
for example, judo is a *way*, this is known by the fact it ends in 'do' which means *way*, if you go to a judo club you get taught ju-jutsu techniques but are encouraged to modify them to suit yourself (kata excluded).
ju-jutsu is an *art* if you go to a ju-jutsu club, you are expected to do the techniques exactly right.

these statements may not be true for all clubs of course, but thats the theory.

sport based judo is VERY different from judo when used as self defence. if you watch the olympics or any contest's you will see alot of gamesmanship. fake attacks, playing for a foul etc. sports judo you can usually rely on the rules of the sport, i.e. no punching, kicking, biting etc so you can fight accordingly, the defensive ball for example. do the defensive ball in a self defence situation, you'll get stomped on.

side note: martial ways often, if not 100% of the time just get called martial arts cos it sounds cooler. who boasts about being a martial wayist? this often leads to confusion and even some dictionaries list martial ways as martial arts.

[Humblebee]

Judojedi,thank you.

[Aegis]

the difference between a martial art and a martial way is:
a martial *ART* shapes the practicioner with the techniques whereas a martial *WAY*'s techniques are shaped by the practicioner.
for example, judo is a *way*, this is known by the fact it ends in 'do' which means *way*, if you go to a judo club you get taught ju-jutsu techniques but are encouraged to modify them to suit yourself (kata excluded).
ju-jutsu is an *art* if you go to a ju-jutsu club, you are expected to do the techniques exactly right.
I disagree with you on that one. Compare Iaido to Iaijutsu/Kenjutsu. The original arts allow a lot more freedom than the rather rigid modern iaido forms. The jujutsu varies from place to place of course. The old schools will tend to teach a lot of kata-like movements, but jujutsu at its highest level is about acting in the most suitable manner for the situation, not about flalwlessly executing a certain technique.

Mostly it depends on the teacher though.

side note: martial ways often, if not 100% of the time just get called martial arts cos it sounds cooler. who boasts about being a martial wayist? this often leads to confusion and even some dictionaries list martial ways as martial arts.
Probably because they are still a martial art. -Jutsu and -Do are both ways of saying "art" but have slightly different meanings in Japanese, so we use different words. Both would translate as martial art, as would several other definitions. I can't remember who first posted it, so I can't give credit in this case, but they mentioned that "martial art" covers 4 different phrases in Japanese, including -jutsu and -do arts.

[judojedi]

I disagree with you on that one. Compare Iaido to Iaijutsu/Kenjutsu. The original arts allow a lot more freedom than the rather rigid modern iaido forms. The jujutsu varies from place to place of course. The old schools will tend to teach a lot of kata-like movements, but jujutsu at its highest level is about acting in the most suitable manner for the situation, not about flalwlessly executing a certain technique. .

well i don't know about iaido/iaijutsu, but i'm sure the same rule applies that the difference is 'jutsu' is all about technique and 'do' is all about the practicioner. maybe modern-day the only distincion is the name and syllabus of whatever association governs your club.
BTW the jutsu/do definitions are not mine, i merely agree with them as they seem to tally with my experience so far.


Probably because they are still a martial art. -Jutsu and -Do are both ways of saying "art" but have slightly different meanings in Japanese, so we use different words. Both would translate as martial art, as would several other definitions. I can't remember who first posted it, so I can't give credit in this case, but they mentioned that "martial art" covers 4 different phrases in Japanese, including -jutsu and -do arts.

we'll have to agree to dis-agree. IMO the definition about "martial art" is a modern day one and subject to modern day generic tendancies. like calling any hard style form out of okanowa and japan karate. also some styles from korea and china just get classed as karate.

[FortuneFaded]

i'm quite disapointed with the 'sport' side of judo i.e in the olympics, its so boring to watch XD, i mean come on, one person is knocked onto the ground and Matte is yelled... wheres the fun of two girls rolling trying to pin there opponent? its lost i tell ya, from what i've seen ^^

[Freeform]

The reason Olympic Judo is so boring to watch (I personally don't find it boring) is because you have two high level players not wanting to be thrown and being uber cautious. At this level if someone doesn't want to be thrown they won' be, unless they initiate first.

Col

[judojedi]

The reason Olympic Judo is so boring to watch (I personally don't find it boring) is because you have two high level players not wanting to be thrown and being uber cautious. At this level if someone doesn't want to be thrown they won' be, unless they initiate first.

Col

yes, exactly. what your are watching in the olympics is two absolute masters playing 6, 7 or 8 moves ahead. Top players, have combinations 30 or more moves long (especially in ground work) and they just bide their time before moving into one of them. these combinations are oftern known by competitors however.
what i'm disappointed in is the refereeing. who seen winston gordon in his third round fight? his opponent done nothing but push him out of the area so he got penalties. forgot his name but he should have been penalised for pasivitey(sp?). winston lost on han-soku-make. And georgina singleton against that belgian, the bel just stood there for 4 minutes and 30 seconds doing nothing and never got one penalty but georgie did for a fake attack! lost on a shido!
i'm also disappointed with the lack of ground work displayed. i seen only one match won with a choke.

EDIT: actually, i might be getting georgie singleton mixed up with someone else in the british team, but anyway you get my point.

[FortuneFaded]

The reason Olympic Judo is so boring to watch (I personally don't find it boring) is because you have two high level players not wanting to be thrown and being uber cautious. At this level if someone doesn't want to be thrown they won' be, unless they initiate first.

Col

mhh good point, several matches i've watched has being won by a counter...

poor guiy tried an osoto gari and the other fellow picked him up and slammed him into the ground... i was shocked.

[kiaiki]

I started Judo in 1970 under a japanese trained sensei, Frank Smith. Every session included technique, randori AND application as self defence including atemi waza. THEN I could have claimed Judo as a good sport with some martial art elements. Now, I'm afraid, sport predominates - the BJA gradings seemed to get increasingly more competitive and less interested in the art - just win, win, win. In a 'freestyle' or 'randori' a good (Yoshinkan) aikidoka would defeat a similar judo player who used judo techniques, simply because the latter are retricted in trainin and thinking by the rules of a sport. Aikido has ben described as 'judo with the nasty stuff left in'. That's not a bad description of some harder styles. For me, Judo became all 'do' no 'jutsu' so I took up aikido - but a style which still had plenty of 'jutsu' martial art content.
to define my terms - I was always taught that 'do' was a 'way' (and therefore in the dojo lots of katas and forms and emphasis on movement and philosophy) whereas 'jutsu' as the application of that way (to battle etc). :)

[judoboxer]

sport and martial art it involves fighting and fitness but then again so do other martial arts so should we class them as sports.