Karate's most hardcore style?

[shotokanwarrior]

which is karate's most hardcore style, i.e. which one does the most intensive conditioning, etc.?
shotokanwarrior

[47Ronin]

Not sure, I know in Uechi we condition like crazy and all that. It is apart of Uechi.

[Adam]

from what I've heard: shidokan, seidokan, kyokushin and it's substyles are all very hardcore in mentality, fighting and conditioning.

Maybe Paul Paterson would have some valuable insight?

Ronin, I was under the impression that Uechi-ryu mainly wasn't very much into full contact. Am I wrong?

[47Ronin]

EXTREMELY WRONG ADAM.

Uechi is all about full contact and hardcore body conditioning.

You calling me a wuss? :D

[Saz]

I'd say Kyokushinkai, but I'm very biased :D We do a lot of hard conditioning, and it achieves its goals.

There's nothing to stop a practioner of a style that doesn't do "hardcore" conditioning taking some up themselves, so its not always about the style itself.

Are you looking to choose a new martial art, or is there another reason for asking this?

[paul paterson]

Osu,

I agree with K_girl and again I too am biased however, from what I have seen and tried, the Go-Ju schools are by most means the ones for "hard core" conditioning. Master Morio Higaonna O' Sensei is by far the only person that I know of who could show you and give you a complete history of conditioning, I have seen this man tear lumps of meat off hung carcases with hirada ken -bear claw and smash his back hand strikes of stone. But please remember that there is also the mental side of conditioning and for that I only know of the Sadu -holy men. Overal each and everyone of us has the potential to put ourselves in areas where our minds and bodies are pushed well beyond the limits of our mere understanding.

Osu.
Paul Paterson.

[Andrew Green]

More dependent on school then style.

And don't mistake stupidity for being hardcore :D

[47Ronin]

Girly ninja penguins shouldnt post in TMA sections :D

[Andrew Green]

Girly ninja penguin has more time in TMA then you :p

[47Ronin]

Damn..............

[LilBunnyRabbit]

Girly ninja penguin should go into stewpot, we're out of food over here.

Why do you want to know which is the most suicidal?

[Andrew Green]

I've heard of Rabbit stew.... but not penguin stew....

Let's cook the bunny instead

[Andrew Konrad]

Originally posted by 47Ronin
EXTREMELY WRONG ADAM.

Uechi is all about full contact and hardcore body conditioning.

You calling me a wuss? :D

I've been sparring with a Uechi-Ryu student/teacher and hes very well conditioned. I've practiced some of the conditioning with him. One involves kicking the thighs and calves, in which he keeps on telling me to kick him harder, and I have a fairly strong kick. He has been involved in this particular karate for almost twenty years so he has built up quite a resistence to pain in certain areas, particularly the thighs. Although, I am not aware of the conditioning for every type of karate, Uechi-ryu seems very intense and should definetly been considered as one of the toughest forms the art.

[47Ronin]

See, a believer. If Uechi wasn't the way it was I wouldnt be in it.

BTW the leg toughening hurts like hell until you get used to it. Your friend sounds like he has some good experience with Uechi, where does he train or teach?

[Cain]

It depends on the school and the teacher, some instructors will have the "Let it go" attitude, other's will have the "try harder" attitude, while the other few have the "do it or die" attitude ;)

Must explain why my school only has four students [one of 'em me] compared to the other branch with about 12-13 students even though the actual school is the same :D

|Cain|

[shotokanwarrior]

Originally posted by LilBunnyRabbit
Girly ninja penguin should go into stewpot, we're out of food over here.

Why do you want to know which is the most suicidal?
suicidal's not the same as hardcore. anyway i like suicidal, i am suicidal.

[Saz]

Your right, suidicial is not the same as hardcore. Had much experience of it? Its not something to like. Quit trying to be a badass.

If you want a really dangerous hobby, take up BASe jumping or something. MA isn't that dangerous, "hardcore" or not. I've never known anyone to die from over conditioning.

[Adam]

If you like suicidal, take up full contact knife fighting. That's the most suicidal art ever created.

[Cain]

Sucidal? Take up Burmese boxing, boxing withoout gloves till death as it was in the old days I think. ;)

|Cain|

[YODA]

Suicidal? Call The Samaritans.

http://www.samaritans.org.uk/

If not - grow up.

[47Ronin]

Haha, tell 'em Yoda.

[Blue Bloater]

my vote is kyokushin (sp?). I have seen some of there full contact tourneys and it looks pretty bad ass. I have also had freinds doing this style and from the things they have said it sounds like much harder training than I have done.

I study Shotokan now. I have studied Wado, ****o, uechi in the past.

[Blue Bloater]

Why can't I say ****o? It is one of the most common styles of karate out there.

[Blue Bloater]

These filters here are lame!

[Cain]

Sorry, your not allowed to say **** :D

|Cain|

[Lloyd]

I vote Kyokushin after just watching the Welsh open knockdown.

[shotokanwarrior]

Originally posted by YODA
Suicidal? Call The Samaritans.

http://www.samaritans.org.uk/

If not - grow up.
i don't mean suicidal as in taking my own life, i mean suicidal as in adrenaline-loving.

[YODA]

Strange usage.

[shotokanwarrior]

Originally posted by YODA
Strange usage.
Yeh i know.

[goatnipples2002]

Would you guys please give me some detailed conditioning exercises. I don't have a school....I practice "INTERNET kung fu" as my friends call it. I train mostly by myself. I have alot of fighting experience from the joint, but no formal MA classes to learn from. I don't practice any kara-te techniques except the ippon-ken. I love the way they condition though. I like pain (kinda). I mean when you pass the threshold you had the previous time you conditioned it makes me have more confidence in my self defence. I also live in Nebraska, there's no REAL arts here everybody wants $$$$$ or it's all flowerery. I can't use that **** in the streets.

NEways what do you guys do for Pain Resistance exercises?

[domsinferno]

i think okanowian karate is all about conditioning thats about all itsa about btw i kno i spelled that wrong

[shotokanwarrior]

Originally posted by Adam
If you like suicidal, take up full contact knife fighting. That's the most suicidal art ever created.
Oooooh, now that sounds like fun.

[kerling]

Originally posted by paul paterson
Osu,

I agree with K_girl and again I too am biased however, from what I have seen and tried, the Go-Ju schools are by most means the ones for "hard core" conditioning. Master Morio Higaonna O' Sensei is by far the only person that I know of who could show you and give you a complete history of conditioning, I have seen this man tear lumps of meat off hung carcases with hirada ken -bear claw and smash his back hand strikes of stone.

Yeah Higaonna sensei does serius conditioning. I was practicing with him and we did self conditioning and with an apponend and darn my hands hurt like hell aftervards.

Just by looking at his hands you can see the condidtioning and to what extreeme he does them.

If you read Best Karate you can find the same number of repeats as Higaonna 300 of each punch to the magiwara. Sam goes for legs toes and fingers. So this is a common practice by high grade japanese instructors. Well at least they talk that way ;)

http://www.xodus.net/karate/files/images/DSC_2221.jpg

look at his knockles in this picture .. he has done some serius conditioning.

Wich reminds me to put my magivara on my wall.

Regards Kerling

[47Ronin]

Dang, after seeing that my knuckles look puney!

Now I feel like conditioning :D

[stump]

Shidokan….definitely the best form of karate competition

"Shidokan Karate was created by Yoshiji Soeno. It is sometimes described as the triathlon of Martial Arts as it's tournaments involve knockdown (otherwise known as bare knuckle), Thai kick-boxing and grappling. (Tournaments are normally held in a boxing ring)."

That's a form of karate I'd like to train in

[shotokanwarrior]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by kerling
Yekh! i am never conditioning again!!!!!!!!!!!

[littlebird]

Well check out the dumog training if you want to be really tough. Pananjakman particularly toughens the legs against kicks.

A nice angle board will allow someone to play havoc on your solar plexus for boxing preparation.

Training should enable you to function under adverse conditions. The adverse conditions can become a show in themselves to astonish and awe the innocent. We should avoid that, except prehaps where we are advertising our local MA school.

If you really want to prepare to fight. Run wind sprints, jump rope, climb rope, run in mud and water. Run up hills. Pound bags.
Usually the most important thing you can condition is your LUNGs. They should be like great bellows ripping and rending the air.

How many fighters start the day strong and fast as as a horse, but after a few matches, you need to get a wagon to carry them in?

littlebird

[shotokanwarrior]

Originally posted by Kgirl
I'd say Kyokushinkai, but I'm very biased :D We do a lot of hard conditioning, and it achieves its goals.

There's nothing to stop a practioner of a style that doesn't do "hardcore" conditioning taking some up themselves, so its not always about the style itself.

Are you looking to choose a new martial art, or is there another reason for asking this?
K-girl - i just wanted to know what the other styles were like as my sensei says we don't do any tameshiwari in Shotokan.

[JurassicWarrior]

I'm going to have to say that Uechi ryu is big on conditioning. We do rugged workouts where I go. The belief is we should train hard w/out malice. Meaning, we get a good workout but we don't go home all black and blue. The only other arts I can think of that condition are boxing, Muay thai, and to a degree, wrestling.

[MatsuRyu]

I agree that it depends much more and school and on instructor than it does on style. But matsubayashi-ryu generally runs a little heavier than average on conditioning, it is kind of an obscure style though (descendent of shorin-ryu). My sensei studies under the grand master of the style in okinawa during vietnam, and he trained pretty hard there so sometimes i think he wants to give us the same thing :eek:

[Shotowarrior]

Possibly Shotokan, because of its low stances, builds up the mucsels in legs, hips and back. Also because of the way it connects to Chinese Shaolin Kung Fu, a link which sadly has been lost. But is preserved within some clubs in the KUGB, JKA etc.

"Follow the Way with honor, and be like the nature of water"

[Moosey]

:) Matey, I think you're gonna get cussed for that! (not by me - I like Shotokan - but I'm something of a minority around here!)

:D

[Nanbudo]

I am interested in the styles who are hardcore and also wonder about the effects this can have on your body in the long term.

Are there any excercises that counter or help prevent any ill effects of this type of ongoing hardcore physical training?

Please do not think i am trying to criticise the hardcore element I am just curious?

[shotokanwarrior]

Possibly Shotokan, because of its low stances, builds up the mucsels in legs, hips and back.

Wow!!!! I'm hardcore!!!! Yay!!!!

[Nrv4evr]

I give it to Kyokushin and Goju. A Goju instructor I met once did knuckle push-ups on rocky asphalt... I'm talking a 200 pound plus pounds on the knuckles. :eek: Incredible conditioning. Not once did I see him even blink.

There was a Kyokushin guy I sparred against as well, and my shin remembers him well. :Angel: He took a teep in the ribs and actually smiled. That could be attributed to just overall toughness, but I felt my shin literally splitting. :p He just smiled.

[TheMightyMcClaw]

I do Shotokan, and it definitely has the leg-killing stances. However, I think Kyokushin gets the win for fighting like madman. I always found it strange that they didn't use head punches in competion, though. The head kicks make up for it, though.

[Infrazael]

No offense, but the Japanes methods of conditiong looks very hurtful to the hands in the long run. Looks like it'll lead up to arthritis, deformity, etc. Punching metal shields every day isn't good for your hands.

[holyheadjch]

I've never heard of anyone contracting arthritis from hand conditioning, Funakoshi sensei practiced hitting a makiwara every day for decades, and I never heard of him suffering from arthritis - of course everything needs to be practiced properly and with common sense

[Ikken Hisatsu]

I've never heard of anyone contracting arthritis from hand conditioning,

ever heard of mas oyama? he couldnt even write in his later years.

as for most hardcore id say kyokushin and its offshoots. sorry to say but I have never heard of or seen a shotokan school that comes close to the intense training most kyokushin schools go through. ive always thought shotokan was considered a bit of a soft option as far as karate goes (which is why its so popular)

[holyheadjch]

ive always thought shotokan was considered a bit of a soft option as far as karate goes (which is why its so popular)

You know if I had to guess who'd be first make an ignorant pointless comment like that in this thread...it would have been you. How many Shotokan schools have you attended? How many Kyokushin Schools have you attended? Just because one school places focus on the development of the mind as well as the body doesn't make it a soft option. You shouldn't pigeon hole an entire style based on your own lame experience,

[Ikken Hisatsu]

oh. tetchy. i said "thought" which means that yeah it is just an opinion. i wasnt stating a fact

[Nrv4evr]

This is probably a bit late, and I am sure many have noticed it before... But nice sig Ikken. :D I'm sorry, just imagining Tyson saying that with his voice... Priceless.

[Tommy_P]

ever heard of mas oyama? he couldnt even write in his later years.



as for most hardcore id say kyokushin and its offshoots. sorry to say but I have never heard of or seen a shotokan school that comes close to the intense training most kyokushin schools go through. ive always thought shotokan was considered a bit of a soft option as far as karate goes (which is why its so popular)

I would say, like anything else it depends on the particular school you attend, I've seen good and bad, easy and hard in everything. I am a Shotokan stylist but have also trained in Kyokushin for a couple of years at black belt level within the Kanamura organization out of NY as a supplement to my Shotokan training.
The training was definitely hardcore and I learned a lot that washed over into my Shotokan training, I especially liked the Goju element. As far as it being harder training than Shotokan, well I'd just say different. My Shotokan training was at times so hard I wondered why I was even there! I think they were a close match. The first time I did kumite at the Kyokushin dojo I had a little trouble adapting to the leg kicks but they had trouble being swept by me. They also didn't like the fact that I aimed for the head. so I think things evened out, like I said not better or worse, harder or easier, just different.

Now on another level I find Shotokan more precision based in their techniques and able to deal with distances better.
I also get (or got) more substance from my Shotokan training than I found in Kyokushin. Some form was neglected in place of shear fighting fierceness.
I also thought the Kyokushin kata were a little shallow or lacking in application or history (at least the way they practiced them), they more or less just performed them but didn't delve as deeply as the Okinawan systems or even as much as Shotokan and Shotokan was never known for it's bunkai.

Comparing Shotokan to Kyokushin is walking a thin edge as far as claiming it's better since Kyokushin is part (1/3?) Shotokan. Mas Oyama liked the "power" of Shotokan from what I understand although not liking the training of Funakoshi much. But never the less he did train in Shotokan and added it to Goju and whatever Chinese system he studied and there you have Kyokushin (possibly some Korean element also?).
Kyokushin has some great fighters and there is no doubt about that. Anyone wanting to learn more about there fighting should definitely try the bare knuckle fighting systems. However Shotokan is pure clean and precise power and against Kyokushin definitely a good match. This is why Mas Oyama adapted it. Remember it's not the system though; it's what you do with it or how much you understand it.

"Proper" conditioning shouldn't lead to Arthritis from what I've read of recent research, but constant breaking of bricks, ceiling tiles and other hard objects might, such as Oyama did.

Just my view from both sides of the fence. A Shotokan stylist and Kyokushin lover from way back. There is a lot to learn from both.
If people would start looking at the "similarities" rather than the "differences" in systems, we may get somewhere.

EDIT:
My appologies, after re-reading the original question the poster asked specifically about conditioning. While I maintain my above comments I would have to add that I believe Kyokushin does more conditioning than the "standard" or average Shotokan dojo. As far as more than any other system, I can't say. These things tend to vary from instructor to instructor also.
Tommy

[shotokanwarrior]

Mas Oyama liked the "power" of Shotokan

Power? What's this, Tommy? I've never heard anything about the power of Shotokan. Is it like the power of the One? :)

[shotokanwarrior]

"A nice angle board will allow someone to play havoc on your solar plexus for boxing preparation."

Never heard of this either, what's an angle board? Do you 'like' jump and impale yourself on it?

Oh, and Ikken, I like your signature too.

[Jagaeori]

which is karate's most hardcore style, i.e. which one does the most intensive conditioning, etc.?
shotokanwarrior

Depends on your exact definition of hardcore, and also what the purpose of the conditioning is. There are styles that consistently produces combat worthy fighters through rigorous training and conditioning, but there are a large number of karate styles (people have already mentioned) that have some very hardcore training methods that seem punishing to the body. Conditioning is only as good as the thing you are conditioning for. There is no point in intensive conditioning unless you're going to do something with it, e.g. fight, withstand great punishment, etc. I would say Kyokushin has the most realistic conditioning for the purposes of fighting and to me that's all that counts but others may disagree of course.