Only punches?

[Soete-tsuki]

I'm sorry for coming off as kind of an azzhole about this, but I just don't understand how you can fight without kicks and grapples. And I have a real question! How do you penetrade defenses and close distance?

[Trent Tiemeyer]

Without boxing having restricted itself to its few core techniques, it would never have developed into the "sweet science". So simple, yet so technical.

No fighting art on the planet can boast the refined hands of western boxing. Distance and defenses are penetrated through superior footwork and bobbing, weaving, and slipping punches instead of meeting them force for force. Great, fluid combinations, economy of motion, etc.

Sure, kicking and grappling are a great part of your martial arsenal, but if you ever try to box with a boxer you will see that is is not nearly as easy as it looks.

[Soete-tsuki]

Well, I wouldn't try to box with a boxer, obviously they'd be more effective. My point is that I don't see boxing as an effective martial art when paired with opponents that utilize their entire body.

[47Ronin]

I understand what you are talking about Soete Tsuki but the point of view 1One fighting is with competition and so on.

[Trent Tiemeyer]

People have different body types also. A stocky, powerfully built man would probably be much more effective with his hands than feet. No art is perfect for everyone.

I will put a good pro boxer up against most Black Belts. Just because you have more techniques does not mean you will be given the opportunity to use them.

[Cain]

I second 1onefighting, the footwork and the defensive techs are definitely drilled to the point of near perfection involving not just blocking of stepping out but also slipping, bobbing etc like Trent said!

I had seen a boxing gym and I must say I was impressed! Those guys would probably break my jaw within 4 secs ;)

It's not a complete MA but it's damn good at what it does!

|Cain|

[zun]

Firstly boxing is a sport. Though it makes for a good fighting art, it's not really designed for supposed to be used in the streets. There are too many rules.

Secondly, it's better to have fewer fantastic and devastating attacks. After all most fighters only use a fraction of their known techs in a fight.

Finally, the upper body conditioning that boxers achieve is almost second to none. Their body, neck and head is designed to withstand huge sledgehammer hits.

While in China and HK, I've watched a few thaifighters (Muay Thai from Thailand) vs US boxers fight. In a majority of cases, the thais went for the easy way; they chopped and hacked away at the boxers legs until they could not stand. They did not want to out box the yanks.

In the few cases where the thais fought a little bit fairly (kicks to the upper body), the thais were knocked out.

I think the final score was 5-2 to the thaifighters.

Ultimately, if the boxer is able to withstand the kicking attacks and assuming all other things equal, I think the boxer is more likely to win.

[Kwajman]

I would think in standing only fights, a boxer would really mess up MOST martial artists, not all but most. But if the boxer got grabbed, or taken to the ground, then its over, think of Tyson vs Shamrock or some similar match up.

[labeledas]

you do realize a boxer can thow a mean punch from the ground too all it takes is one sweet connection and you are out. i htink most people are going with the mentality that since a boxer only uses his hands he is the lesser fighter which is untrue. when i fight in tkd tournaments i usaully only use one kick and i win almost everytime.

when you think about it if he is only using his hands he will have that tool damn neatr pefected as opposed to someone who knows alittle grappling / kicks / punches.

[SK12879]

Watching most boxers, you will notice that their hands move so swiftly and fluidly that you rarely have a chance to see the punch much before it removes your head. Yes, they are at a disadvantage due to legs being longer than arms, but their footwork is second to none and a good boxer can move from outside of kick range to punching range before you realize what just happened.

Don't think that because they don't use their feet they are not able to fight effectively.

[Freeform]

My point is that I don't see boxing as an effective martial art when paired with opponents that utilize their entire body.


I'm sorry, but this to me shows a lack of understanding of boxing, as it does utilise the whole body. I think the point your getting at is that they only utilise the hands as weapons.

Boxing is a whole body art, with avoidance work being one of its pinicle achievements (bobbing, weaving, rocking, slipping, etc).

Think about it. :)

Colin

[Coyote]

Aye, Freeform has it right again! And if you're talking about a streetfight, a boxer may still rely on his hands as weapons, but he's unlikely to limit himself to the "legal" targets any more than a TKD tournament fighter will limit himself to the front of the body on the street. One good, solid punch to the bladder (and a boxer's punch, you can bet, will be SOLID) will put the hardest fighter on the ground. On top of all that, a boxer trains so much with placement and penetration, any connection he makes can pretty well rock your world. Finally, in addition to the avoidance they all train in (and watch that footwork, it's awesome,) they also train to absorb punishment. You may kick and hit them alot before they are hurt enough to slow down. Just remember, as in any martial art, the fight's outcome will rely at least as much on the fighter as on the art.

[johndoch]

I'd just like to add that boxers also work the clinch as well and know a few dirty tricks when they are in there.

[Soete-tsuki]

How does a boxer deal with say, a turn kick?

[Coyote]

By getting in close and breaking your ribs, jaw, and arms.

[YODA]

Originally posted by Soete-tsuki
How does a boxer deal with say, a turn kick?

If you'd ever sparred with a good boxer you'd know the answer to that - I suggest you try it before dismissing it or spouting crap like this from the sword thread...

Originally posted by Soete-tsuki
Comparing Kenjutsu to European broadsword is much like comparing Karate to American Boxing. One is an extremely fast, powerful and effective martial art, honed over several hundred years of revision to a nearly perfect fighting system, the other is a slow, brutish, and generally weak “system” that only utilizes the hands and absolutely pathetic blocks that can’t even counter a crescent kick.

[Cain]

:rolleyes:

Soete-tsuki, I would really suggest you visit a boxing gym, you won't be able to talk but you will be able to type :D

|Cain|

[Soete-tsuki]

http://www.blackbeltmag.com/archives/blackbelt/1964/mayjun64/boxing/boxingvsjudo.html

This is the kind of thing I'm used to hearing about.

[YODA]

Originally posted by Soete-tsuki
http://www.blackbeltmag.com/archives/blackbelt/1964/mayjun64/boxing/boxingvsjudo.html

This is the kind of thing I'm used to hearing about.

1963???? 40 Years ago?

Geez dude get with the program! BOTH arts have come a long way since then.

I agree a good grappler would be a handful for a boxer.

However, you were comparing it to Karate - another standing striking art.

[Soete-tsuki]

It depends on the style. Goju karate uses quite a few grapples. I'll look for more up to date sources later on.

All in all, I've found this conversation rather fun =/

[YODA]

I did Goju for 7 years - we did a few obscure bunkai with very poor attempts at locks - nothing I'd consider functional grappling.

[Soete-tsuki]

Not functional grappling? Have you seen Morio Higaonna? His technique is both impressive on it's on right and superbly integrated into hard techniques. As an aikidoka I am obviously no stranger to grappling. If integrated correctly the techniques are quite effective.

[Soete-tsuki]

If you've only been exposed to "obscure bunkai with very poor attempts at locks" may I ask where you studied for 7 years? The basic premise of goju is balance between hard and soft techniques.

[Freeform]

How does a boxer deal with say, a turn kick?


Tell you what, how about you go down to your local amateur boxing gym and get into a fight with a boxer, just in the interests of experimentation.

Let me know how it goes. ;)

To call boxing brutish compared to Karate is a bit far. Watch karate kumite, then watch a boxing match. Honestly tell me which one looks more technical.

Col

[YODA]

Originally posted by Soete-tsuki
Not functional grappling? Have you seen Morio Higaonna? His technique is both impressive on it's on right and superbly integrated into hard techniques. As an aikidoka I am obviously no stranger to grappling. If integrated correctly the techniques are quite effective.


Yes - in person. He's VERY impressive.

Looking to Karate, ANY Karate, for grappling techniques is like looking to Muay Thia for throws - there are some but very limited.

if you want to grapple - study grappling.

[YODA]

Originally posted by Soete-tsuki
If you've only been exposed to "obscure bunkai with very poor attempts at locks" may I ask where you studied for 7 years? The basic premise of goju is balance between hard and soft techniques.


Most of the bunkai where not "obscure" - just those trying to fabricate functional grappling.

As Karate goes I found it very fucntional.

I studied with a student of Teruo Chinen & James Rouseau (sp?) here in England in the late mid 80's.

[Sonshu]

For me is one of the best arts around. Its simple ability to be direct and key to a small number of moves make it good.

The level of fitness and power is amazing and the stamina is so critical. This is levels most (not all) most Karate fighters never even get close to.

Boxing is effective on the street as one shot on the jaw from Jo public and most of us will go down yet a half rate boxer will give you the biggest white flash of your life. Then of course he has hit you again and playing a number on your rib cage.

Boxers are real tough medicine for anyone who has not done it and when I have spared with ok boxers because of there devotion to the few key moves I have to alter my gameplan or take more shots to the head than I want.

IT HURTS!

[OdDs]

I come from a town that is 'boxing heavy.' Several of my friends are boxers, and one of which is very talented to say the least. I have studied Judo, some Muay Thai in my time, but mainly Taekwondo. I often spar with boxers as i see it as good practice. Their strong points have all be highlighted above, particularly there lightning fast and powerful punches and combo's. However i have never been completely wiped out in a spar with them, and dont see them as too much trouble. Keeping them on the end of your foot isn't usually a possibility (what they teach you in TKD) as they come on blisteringly fast and lay into your jaw.

Ive read about a very talented Boxer/Muay Thai fighter that entered a Wing Chun class, and boy did they teach him a thing or two. The words 'Just couldn't land a punch' being the most memorable.

As fighting arts go Boxing is quite highly street applicable in my opinion, although its still a different game, boxing can teach some useful skills to take on the street.

[Jordan]

That's true, and I know your trying to defend Boxing and I totally respect that. So don't think that I'm taking a shot at you when I say this, but boxing has to many rules no groin shots, kindney shots, clinches are broken up, no back hands and so on. But in a real fight there are know rules and this puts you at a disadvantage.
If I offended you in any way let me know,because I hate it when people down my Aikido and I know how that feels.

[Soete-tsuki]

I remember my first experience with Aikido. I walked into a class not very impressed with what I'd seen so far, Goju just seemed so much faster and more aggressive, boy was I surprised =/ I got pinned over and over and over and over, hehe. Very impressed with Aikido and thus far I've taken ten or so classes. Would like to study it a bit more, there are some very useful techniques there, even for a Karateka!

[Trent Tiemeyer]

Why does anyone presume that a boxer will continue to play by the rules on the street?

[Cain]

Originally posted by Jordan
That's true, and I know your trying to defend Boxing and I totally respect that. So don't think that I'm taking a shot at you when I say this, but boxing has to many rules no groin shots, kindney shots, clinches are broken up, no back hands and so on. But in a real fight there are know rules and this puts you at a disadvantage.
If I offended you in any way let me know,because I hate it when people down my Aikido and I know how that feels.

I understand how you feel about aikido, but those who practise it know it works for them, you know it works for you, why do you have to listen to those that diss it? Let them be, it's either their opinion or that the art was simply not for them but it won't change the fact that there are many aikidoka who can take care of themselves. I myself know of 2 students in one of my other classes who were aikidoka, they are damn good at what they do, my respect for Aikido has gone up since then. Someone's opinion on a forum is'nt going to change that.

On the other hand why do you have to make generalisations about boxing? Your simply going down to their level by doing so. Boxing is a good art dedicated for punches, it does'nt necessarrily incorporate everything but it's the best at what it does same as Aikido.

|Cain|

[YODA]

Originally posted by 1ONEfighting
Why does anyone presume that a boxer will continue to play by the rules on the street?


It's hard enough to get some of them to play by the rules in the ring :D

[47Ronin]

When I was a little kid the German boxers I watched would kill most Martial Artists I have seen fight.

Even our Sensei has strong roots in boxing and when I put it in to use in Kumite it really can nab those guys. Boxing is a very effective art that can take any idiot street fighter.

[OdDs]

Street fighting is an art of its own, and the best at it are not idiots. Shows you have limited knowledge of real streetfighters. Im not talking about people who start pub brawls, or shout at people for looking at them down the street either:

This book may be of interest (http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/1903854091/ref=sr_aps_books_1_1/026-2131691-8352446)

These guys put down professional boxers for sport, period. :D

[Trent Tiemeyer]

*rolls eyes*

[littlebird]

You must be careful to not mix up the sports of boxing, and of MA in general with a real fight.

And now I speak of men of the same physical and mental ability.

The skills, strength, and stamina gained in boxing give great advantage on the street provided the fighter takes just a minimum of care about kicks. Knees, the boxer generally knows about.

It is similar to a grappler in a UFC contest.

Either the boxer or the grappler can take over the particular contest, by taking away the favorite tools of the other fighter.

In the UFC contest the grappler has the advantage over the boxer. On the street or bar with just a little care the boxer has a chance. Here I assume neither is using the other's arts or is particularly knowligible of them except to be aware of them.

[liero]

i have studied karate for over three years and dabbled in TKD and a TINY bit of Judo, i thought that my sparring skills were quite good, i could score hits on most of the higher grades at Kumite. unfortunatly due to work i couldnt attend karate on the night the sparring class was on, so i found a Boxing Gym and decided to start.

its been a Month and in that time i have gotten REALLY fit, the skipping and endurance conditioning is better than nearly anything i have done in karate. not only that but im getting "cut" as people call it.

the continuous bag work, the proper bags and the smaller accuracy training "crazy bag" have increased my punching power and accuracy.

and my sparring is getting better and better, boxing teaches you how to react to flurries of punch's and attacks, which helps with composure under pressure, this is particularly true in the non-contact or sports sparring based styles. where in these styles you cannot full contact shot to the head etc, with boxing head gear you can practice this without fear of injury and you learn the true problem of what happens when you are hit rather than when you just get a slight tap or a fist that stops a few inch's in front of you

verdict- every martial artist can gain from doing some basic training in boxing for fitness and sparring skill, it doesnt hinder your additional skills, just compliments them.

[elektro]

All I can say as a Shotokan Karate student is boxing is one of the most beautiful things I have ever seen, athletically, self defense, absorbtion of punishment, footwork, combining attack and defense into one move.
I think any Karateka could benefit from boxing training and the other way round. The only reason I don't do boxing training is I don't think I'm hard or fit enough I respect it that much. Maybe one day. One of the guys from our class started boxing, I asked him what it was like - he said "It hurts".

I would never ever fight a boxer if I could at all possibly help it. The only chance I'd have is to kick him in the groin on the way in. And they move so fast, you'd be seeing three groins. Go for the middle one, I suppose. And suddenly you are hit by what feels like a passing anvil going at 60 miles per hour.

[elektro]

Oh and you say earlier " how woudl they cope with a side turn kick" - probably just walk through it and knock your head off.

Edit - and I suspect it wasn't Tyson you saw in those fights rather a shadow of himself getting beat up for a pay packet basically . I would have liked to have seen him in those fights when he early twenties or so years old.

[madmike]

boxing is a great sport and it is a techincal science. i cross train chinese kickboxing with boxing and it helps alot. also anyone who has ever though a boxer in the streets will fell who that they carnt half give you a great crack.

[koto_ryu]

Why does anyone presume that a boxer will continue to play by the rules on the street?

Because they assume. They don't realize all the dirty little tricks that come into play as well (thumbing with their jab, following their hooks with an 'accidental' elbow, headbutts, etc. Heck, even chewing on ears a la Mike Tyson :D ).

[GoldenTiger]

Here is my take on the topic. I have been boxing for quite awhile. Now sometimes I go and vist the gym. Those guys know how to throw a punch. In my past experiences with boxers who knew there stuff have showed me that boxing is not as uneffecient as you think.

Here are some examples.

Kicking against a boxer is not a bad idea but suppose you try a high roundhouse kick. Now what if he just bobs under it and gets in close your leg has most likely not made contact with the ground yet and you have got a well trained boxer on the inside while you still have not recovered from your kick. Trust me on this I have played around with some guys at the gym by kicking at them all the do is slip and bob all day. One was even smart enough that he covered his left side while sending a right hook to my knee.(that hurt like hell could noy really work out for 2 weeks.)

You say a grappler can easily be a handful for a boxer. Well before the grappler can grapple he has to open up sometime. A boxer only needs one opening. For example if ken shamroc attempted to take out tysons legs all tyson needs to do is have an uppercut waiting for him. And tyson is not much of a slouch either.

Why do you guys keep saying boxing is no good in the street. We all know a boxer can throw a destructive punch with 10-16oz gloves on. Even enough to cut an eye and break a jaw and nose in the ring. Thats with gloves on. Now on the street there is no protection on his hands. If he can cause that much damage with gloves on picture him with bare knuckles. Also in the streets there are no rules to where he can throw punches anywhere he wants even to the groin. Shoot it only takes a light shot to the nose before your eyes get all teary and blurred.

As for penetration. A boxer uses his footwork in combination with slipping,bobing and weaving to get on the inside. MY trainner always keeps me trainning on this. Get inside keep those hands up footwork. God gave you feet now use them! he always has me doing stuff like that. Most of the people that are more advance than me know it like second nature. Because they do it so much. Its lock in their minds.

Most boxers are so fit. Look for a pro boxers trainng regimen or workout and you will see why. My trainer told me if you want to last for 3 rounds you condition for six. At the gym some guys will jump rope for like 15 mins straight non stop. Most pros can crank out at least a 2-5 mile run/jog a day.

Now don't get me wrong I am not saying boxing is the ultimate art but what I am trying to say is that there is alot more to boxing that just what you think there is. I suggest going to the gym sitting down with one of the trainners and talk to him about boxing. I am sure you will learn alot. Maybe you should ask to spar with a few of the members. I guess you can say in the end it all comes down to who knows their art better.

[jeffie7]

Here is my take on the topic. I have been boxing for quite awhile. Now sometimes I go and vist the gym. Those guys know how to throw a punch. In my past experiences with boxers who knew there stuff have showed me that boxing is not as uneffecient as you think.

Here are some examples.

Kicking against a boxer is not a bad idea but suppose you try a high roundhouse kick. Now what if he just bobs under it and gets in close your leg has most likely not made contact with the ground yet and you have got a well trained boxer on the inside while you still have not recovered from your kick. Trust me on this I have played around with some guys at the gym by kicking at them all the do is slip and bob all day. One was even smart enough that he covered his left side while sending a right hook to my knee.(that hurt like hell could noy really work out for 2 weeks.)


I'm just walking in on this topic and only read your reply.

Anyone who has been trained in "self defense" knows darn well not to throw a high kick in a real fight. In fact fighting VS a boxer I wouldnt throw a single kick above the belt.

My two main strikes VS a boxer would be, kicks to the knees. and open hand to the throat. I'm not going to stand up to a boxer punch for punch. (or any fight for that matter) I want to end any fight as soon as it starts.
and throwing a kick to anyones head (unless dazed) is stupid.

[Jamo2]

I know of pretty much most of the doormen in Cardiff. Now these doormen, are pretty much known as the hardest people in Cardiff. Most on steroids, some not, some train everyday, some dont bother.
Now amongst these doormen, NONE, absolutely NONE do "martial arts"
MOST of them have probably been to some sort of boxing lessons in there lives.
The few doormen that do stand out, and are probably considered the "pitbulls", are full time boxers.
Now you tell me, if boxing is so "inefficient" why is it so respected amongst these men upon men.

Now ive seen these guys take out 5 people before it either getting broken up or actually taking a hit themselves. There legs never left the floor.

It actually makes me cringe when people talk about "side kicking" these people.

[Apotheosis]

I know of pretty much most of the doormen in Cardiff. Now these doormen, are pretty much known as the hardest people in Cardiff. Most on steroids, some not, some train everyday, some dont bother.
Now amongst these doormen, NONE, absolutely NONE do "martial arts"
MOST of them have probably been to some sort of boxing lessons in there lives.
The few doormen that do stand out, and are probably considered the "pitbulls", are full time boxers.
Now you tell me, if boxing is so "inefficient" why is it so respected amongst these men upon men.

Now ive seen these guys take out 5 people before it either getting broken up or actually taking a hit themselves. There legs never left the floor.

It actually makes me cringe when people talk about "side kicking" these people.


Boxing is a martial art, but lets pretend it isn't. It is a good self defense "art"/"sport", but it like every other martial art has it's weakness.

While I am sure these doormen are good fighters, I don't see them as the best fighters on earth and am sure they would lose in a fight to quite a few experts in other martial arts.

Take K-1, there is a reason none of the winners are just boxers.

As to taking out 5 people, they must have been 5 idiots or starving children.

Five people would beat one in a fight, 99/100.

No matter how good of a fighter you are, numbers matter.

[GoldenTiger]

I understand what you mean Jefie7 but it was just an example. I agree any type of high kick in a street fight is a very wreckless desicion. But for the sake of getting my point across I used it as an example.

[jeffie7]

I know of pretty much most of the doormen in Cardiff. Now these doormen, are pretty much known as the hardest people in Cardiff. Most on steroids, some not, some train everyday, some dont bother.
Now amongst these doormen, NONE, absolutely NONE do "martial arts"
MOST of them have probably been to some sort of boxing lessons in there lives.
The few doormen that do stand out, and are probably considered the "pitbulls", are full time boxers.
Now you tell me, if boxing is so "inefficient" why is it so respected amongst these men upon men.

Now ive seen these guys take out 5 people before it either getting broken up or actually taking a hit themselves. There legs never left the floor.

It actually makes me cringe when people talk about "side kicking" these people.

We have the same things here. Just keep in mind. most normal people dont know how to fight at all. So first off 1 for 1 the bigger guy is going to win. if the fear his size doesnt do it, the guy having the ability to toss someone around like a rag doll will. Add 2 weeks of training of anything (boxing TKD, Karate...) and you'll have a guy that can beat up most everyone that walks into the bar/club. Keep in mind most people do not have any real martial arts background.

That's just how it works. now the 5 on 1. my guess is they were all drunk and just screwing around or were trying to take him down in a nice manor with out doing anything to "hurt" him.

If they wanted to each guy could grab one limb each. the 5th guy could just push his thumb thru his eyes.... nuff said.

however maybe they agreed to fight him Kung Fu movie style. 1 at a time. LOL

[Jamo2]

K there was a bit of a misunderstanding with the 5 on 1 thing. Its a bar fight so there are people hitting each other everywhere. This bouncer walks in and takes 5 people out of action, all of which are trying to hurt him, but not necessarily at the same time, some in 2s some on there own.

And yeah im sure the other fighting arts as those displayed in K1 would be good too, but im sceptical when it comes to stuff like Karate and Aikido

[jeffie7]

And yeah im sure the other fighting arts as those displayed in K1 would be good too, but im sceptical when it comes to stuff like Karate and Aikido


Please do explain.

[Slindsay]

Please do explain.

Aikido (with the exception of the small and universally shunned school of Tommiki style Aikido) has never shown itself to be an effective art in any setting outside of it's own Demo's. Jason Delucia (apologies for probably butchering the spelling) is the only competitive fighter who has cited Aikido and when you watch him fight you don't recognise any of the techniques orf Aikido.

Why on earth would you NOT be sceptical of Aikido, I studied it for 3 years on and off and I was never truly impressed by it.

[jeffie7]

Aikido (with the exception of the small and universally shunned school of Tommiki style Aikido) has never shown itself to be an effective art in any setting outside of it's own Demo's. Jason Delucia (apologies for probably butchering the spelling) is the only competitive fighter who has cited Aikido and when you watch him fight you don't recognise any of the techniques orf Aikido.

Why on earth would you NOT be sceptical of Aikido, I studied it for 3 years on and off and I was never truly impressed by it.

I dont know a lot about Aikido other then what I've seen in movies.

Karate on the other hand... do go on =)