Judo: MMA or TMA?

[Adam]

Is judo considered a TMA or a MMA? We have the gi and the japanese terminology but on the other hand it is a fighting sport, doesn't seem to stress discipline as much as other TMAs and has a generally more relaxed attitude. This is of course just my experience with the art.

Is judo MMA or TMA?

[YODA]

TMA

Damned good one too :D

[Trent Tiemeyer]

TMA.

[Freeform]

I was waiting for this thread to start up ever since I asked the question in another thread ;)

TMA, and IMHO one of the best TMA's out there!

[DexterTCN]

What's a TMA?

[Freeform]

Traditional Martial Art.

Col

[judojedi]

judo isn't either of them as its a sport not an MA.
but i suppose you could say it uses tradition martial arts forms, to form a modern sport.

and i agree with freeform, one of the best systems you can learn. one of the fun-ist aswell.

[Cain]

judo isn't either of them as its a sport not an MA.

MA is not a sport? :confused:

Muay thai?

Boxing?

|Cain|

[judojedi]

Originally posted by Cain
MA is not a sport? :confused:

Muay thai?

Boxing?

|Cain|

thats right, its how come judo and boxing are allowed in the olympics and karate/kung fu/etc are not.
dunno about muay thai.

[Cain]

thats right, its how come judo and boxing are allowed in the olympics and karate/kung fu/etc are not.
dunno about muay thai.

WTF? Just because it's in the olympics does'nt mean it's not an MA, your definition of a sport seems to be "X" must be in the olympics....

Karate is also a sport I hope you know that ;)

|Cain|

[judojedi]

no, my definition of a sport is not that it has to be in the olympics. but a game/activity/whatever must be a sport before its allowed in the olympics.
judo is a sport. thats why judoka are refered to as judo players.
Martial arts are not allowed in the olympics, therefore judo, wrestling, boxing, fencing, swimming, pole vauting, 100m sprint, javlin and the hammer are all sports.

karate is not a sport. it might have sport aspects to some styles but karate (the major forms at least) is a MA.

combat sport does not equal martial art, martial art does not equal combat sport.

[Adam]

Interesting. What differentiates a martial art from the sport arts?

[judojedi]

dunno exactly, my sensai said judo was originally declared a sport so international competitions could take place with sports insurance. hence the reason is money.
dunno how true this is though.

however my therory is where it comes from, east or west.
judo would be the exception in this case though.

[Cain]

but a game/activity/whatever must be a sport before its allowed in the olympics.

So?

It does'nt mean if something's not in olympics it's not a sport, that would be Karate [yep it's a sport too] Jiu Jitsu, MMA, and yes - Muay thai.

My point is a style can be an MA and still be a sport, why do they have to be different things?

|Cain|

[judojedi]

Originally posted by Cain
So?

It does'nt mean if something's not in olympics it's not a sport, that would be Karate [yep it's a sport too] Jiu Jitsu, MMA, and yes - Muay thai.
|Cain|

:rolleyes: tut

usually people have the courtesy to read posts they are replying to, before they reply.
i said that
"x" does not have to be in the olympics to be a sport.
"x" must be a sport to be in the olympics.
would you like me to explain again?:p

karate, may well be a sport it one form or another, however karate is not allowed in the olympics as it is classed as a MA. FACT.

[Adam]

Taekwondo is allowed in the olympics. Is TKD a martial art or not?

[judojedi]

well i'd say TKD is a MA, but as you say, its in the olympics.

ha ha, kinda throws my argument out don't it?
maybe a martial art, under certain rules/conditions can become a sport. i will look into this as it looks like i've bin stumped.

[Cain]

karate, may well be a sport it one form or another, however karate is not allowed in the olympics as it is classed as a MA. FACT.

Is boxing an MA or not? Same as TKD?

They can be both I don't see why people throw in the "sport" and "martial art"?

They can be both, nothing's the problem with that :D

|Cain|

[Cain]

Doh! Adam sorta beat me to it! :D

|Cain|

[4-n-zics]

I am new here and this is my first post.. I thought I would throw something into the mix:

it is not the Olympics, but Karate made its debut as a medal sport at the 1999 Pan American Games in Winnipeg, Canada.

http://www.olympic-usa.org/sports2/ka/az_over.html

[Sub zero]

J udo is a sport and a combat MA aswell. It was or so i believe originally intended as a sport but it still retains alot of really good combat elements.

As for the TMA/MMA thing i'm torn. How do yu define traditional. I mean Alot of the "traditional" CMA s are less than 100 years older than it.hmmmmm.

[Freeform]

Just a note, Karate is 'almost' an olympic sport now, they're waiting for Japan to hold the Olympics so it can be introduced as a demonstration sport, same goes for Aikido.

Feel free to continue debating! :D

[DeepFreeze]

@ judojedi

Heh, no offense but that's pretty ridicilous claim that if MA gets into olympics, it's no longer MA :P

Judo is indeed both, a sport and martial art. The reason it was eligible for the olympics, was that it can be safely competed with full power. And I have NEVER heard anyone calling people practising judo "judo players" before. Wouldnt your theory conclude that any MA that can be competed in, is sport? Kinda narrows down the amount of martial arts.


(sorry about this gibberish post, most of it didnt make any sense either. But bear with me, I just came from exhausting judo practise :) )

[Sub zero]

When you sau "judo players" over here in alot of magazne and in clubs (but in my experience more so down is england than here in sunny scotland) praticioners of many arts are called players. Just a form of terminlogy. Not sugesting a game or sport.

[Freeform]

Yep, I here the term 'players' quite alot. Judo is becoming more of a sport these days though, as that is were the money is :(

[judojedi]

forget the olympic aspect i was going on about earlier, the fact of the matter is, JUDO IS NOT A MARTIAL ART!
it comes from a martial art.
it uses martial art techniques.
but it is not a martial art itsself. its a sport!

to prove this i refere to the KODOKAN manual. it does not mention MARTIAL ARTS at all, apart from when it talks about ju-jitsu. the closest term used when refereing to judo is 'martial principal'. i have attached some paragraphs from the kodokan, note the use of the word SPORT and lack of the term MARTIAL ART.

[quote]
Sport provided teamwork which was good for all and also developed the individual. It was a complete physical education; not just a game. Although self defense techniques were included in the training, emphasis was on using the techniques in a holistic manner. Dr. Jigoro Kano is credited with jujitsu's survival of the Meiji Restoration. He took jujitsu and adapted it to the times. His new methodology was called Judo.
In 1882, Dr. Jigoro Kano (The Father of Judo) made a comprehensive study of these ancient self defense forms and integrated the best of these forms into a sport which is known as Kodokan Judo
So in 1882, having pulled from ancient jujitsu the best of its throws and grappling techniques, added some of his own, and removed such dangerous techniques as foot and hand strikes. Kano at the age of 22, presented his new sport--Judo. He called this sport Kodokan Judo. The term Kodokan breaks down into ko (lecture, study, method), do (way or path), and kan (hall or place). Thus it means "a place to study the way." Similarly Judo breaks down into ju (gentle) and do (way or path) or "the gentle way."
On July 24, 1905, representatives of the leading jujitsu schools (ryu) of Japan, gathered at the Butokukai Institute in Kyoto to agree upon the forms of Kodokan Judo and to continue the development of the technical forms of the sport. The ancient jujitsu techniques of each particular school were to be preserved in kata (pre-arranged form) for posterity.

By 1910 Judo was a recognized sport that could be safely engaged in and in 1911 it was adopted as a part of Japan's educational system. In the same year, the Kodokan Judo Instructors' Training Department, Kodokan Black Belt Association and Japan Athletic Association were formed. Beginning with the fifth Olympiad in Stockholm, Kano attended every Olympic Game and International Olympic Committee meeting and became a leading figure in international sport.

When Japan hosted the 1964 Olympics, Judo was given its first opportunity as an event. Of the sixteen medals awarded for Judo, Japan won three gold medals, and one silver medal. Judo was no longer a Japanese sport but had developed to become an international sport
[quote]

to be honest, those of you who actually practice judo and think its a martial art should be ashamed of yourselves. do you not take the time to look into the history of your SPORT?:D

[judojedi]

Originally posted by DeepFreeze
@ judojedi

Heh, no offense but that's pretty ridicilous claim that if MA gets into olympics, it's no longer MA :P


at what point did i claim this? if you read what i have posted, you will see that i have said judo IS a sport and never was a martial art. at no point did i say that its was a martial art, but now cos its in the olympics its a sport.

[Cain]

i have said judo IS a sport and never was a martial art

Sheesh! :rolleyes:

Judo is a sport and a martial art

Next you will be telling me boxing, Muay Thai, BJJ, Taekwondo are not martial arts :rolleyes:

|Cain|

[Freeform]

JudoJedi, I think you need to read the Kodokan Judo book a little bit more in depth, Kano was one of the greatest Martial Artists of his time and sought to create a safe method of practice.

So do you think that the Boxing and Judo sections should be removed from the forum as they aren't martial arts?

If its not a martial art why do we have the Goshin No Kata?
Why do we have the Atemi waza?

Sure these aren't practiced in randori, but I think you need to realise that Judo IS a martial art and it is a combat sport as well. Sadly the sporting aspect is eclipsing the martial side but there are groups sauch as the British Judo Council who practice all aspects as wished by Kano himself.

MAP member Jim, in Oz, is such a practitioner of Judo as well.

Colin

[judojedi]

Originally posted by Freeform
JudoJedi, I think you need to read the Kodokan Judo book a little bit more in depth, Kano was one of the greatest Martial Artists of his time and sought to create a safe method of practice.

So do you think that the Boxing and Judo sections should be removed from the forum as they aren't martial arts?

If its not a martial art why do we have the Goshin No Kata?
Why do we have the Atemi waza?

Colin

i have read the kodokan in depth. i never said kano wasn't a martial artist. he learnt ju-jitsu before developing the sport of judo.

why do we have the Goshin No Kata? Kano wanted to preserve some traditional ju-jitsu within his new sport.

i think we need to define the word 'sport' and the term 'martial art'.

to practice sport is to practice for competition. like people train in football for a football match. that is what they are training for, the match. judo is learnt for shiai (contest).
it is true, some people learn this sport with no intention of ever taking part in contests and do it merely for the enjoyment and fitness aspect. this reinforces my claim to it being a sport as sports are also taken up to keep fit and to be enjoyed.
as are martial arts of course, but more so in sports.

Martial arts, are arts of war. which basically mean they are meant for real life situations, not SPORTING contest. martial arts such as TKD, therefore, can be tinkered with to become a sport aswell. traditional TKD did not involve head guards and gloves. TKD as a self defence system is a MA. TKD with head guards and gloves and a referee is a SPORT.

JUDO is not, and has never been intended, to be an art of war or a system of self defence. the fact that it is an effective method of defending ones self is irrelevent. a footballer can channel a lot of energy into a kick of a ball which can be transfered over into a self defence technique ie kicking an attacker. does this mean that football can be considered a MA? no, of course not.
JUDO is the sporting aspect of ju-jitsu, if someone wants to learn to defend themselves, they learn ju-jitsu, TKD, JKD etc. if they wanna learn a sport (martial art orientated) JUDO is a great choice.

please read this post properly before replying as its frustrating when peolpe say things like:

"so you reckon (this/that/the other)"
when i have said nothing of the sort

one final word: many judo site refere to judo as a martial art. i don't why this is since thay must of read the kodokan before constructing such sites. my only thought on this is judo just gets natually grouped in with martial arts as its so similar with coloured belts and so-forth. also judo is alot more commercial when described as a MA.

[Sub zero]

erm
have a loko here http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=martial%20art


martial art
n.
Any of several Asian arts of combat or self-defense, such as aikido, karate, judo, or tae kwon do, usually practiced as sport. Often used in the plural.


martial art

n : any of several Oriental arts of weaponless self-defense; usually practiced as a sport; "he had a black belt in the martial arts"


end of descussion me thinks

:D

[Cain]

ROFLMAO!!! Good one Sub :D

Judo not a martial art? :rolleyes:

|Cain|

[judojedi]

so? you have found a dictionary that lists judo under martial arts. whats that prove?
if that definition is to be taken as gospel then sambo isn't a martial art. and niether is boxing ( i never thought boxing was but i think cain was trying to imply it is earlier).

look at this which i found on a different martial arts web site. funily enough, it includes your dictionary reference. :-

WHAT IS A MARTIAL ART?

The term "martial art" is used in (at least) two different ways. This
can be confusing. Some dictionary definitions only make things worse.

The dictionary definition handy at the moment defines a martial art
as "Any of several Oriental arts of combat or self-defense, as karate,
judo, or tae kwon do, usually practiced as a sport."

That definition is guaranteed to offend just about everyone who reads
this group.

Typically this group uses "Martial Art" in one of two ways:

1) The first definition is a generic one, which defines a "Martial Art"
as the study of any kind of combat and/or self-defense techniques.

This definition includes non-oriental arts like boxing. This definition
includes both those arts practiced primarily as a sport, and those arts
practiced primarily for self-defense. This definition includes those
arts that emphasize only physical technique. This definition also
includes those arts that emphasize a philosophical or mental aspect in
addition to physical techniques. In its broadest usage, this definition
includes learning how to drive a tank or drop bombs out of a plane as a
Martial Art. This explains the somewhat facetious references you will
see to "Gun Fu", the martial art of learning how to use firearms
(implying, as the dictionary definition does, that a martial art must
be oriental to be legitimate).

2) The second definition is much narrower, and draws a distinction
between a "Martial *ART*" and a "Martial *WAY*". To offer a gross
simplification:

A martial *art* is the study of an art that emphasizes only physical
techniques. Perfection of technique is the primary concern.

A martial *way* emphasizes the study of both physical techniques and
a philosophical or mental aspect as well. Perfection of the self is
the primary concern.

The emphasis on this distinction is very clear for those arts that have
Japanese names.

Typically, Japanese martial *art* style names end in "jutsu", such as
"jiu-jutsu", "aiki-jiujutsu", or "ken-jutsu".

Typically Japanese martial *way* style names end in "do", such as
"ju-do", "aiki-do", or "ken-do".

A lot of bandwidth has been wasted by those arguing about whether something
is or isn't a martial art, without first establishing which definition -
including the dictionary definition - is being used.

According to the dictionary definition, boxing is *not* a martial art.
According to definitions one and two, above, boxing *is* a martial art.

According to the dictionary definition and definition one, above, karate
*is* a martial art. According to definition two, above, karate (frequently
written as karate-do) is *not* a martial art (it is a martial *way*).

In the end, it is really the attitude of the individual doing the
practicing that determines whether, for *them*, what they are learning
is a "martial art" or a "martial way". The person standing next to you
in your school may or may not be practicing with the same attitude as
you are - one of you may be treating what you learn as a "martial way",
and the other may be approaching the same material as a "martial art".

EDIT: found this here by the way
http://www.faqs.org/faqs/martial-arts/faq/part4/preamble.html

[Sub zero]

ok if ur gonna create ur own defintion rather than the one that's in the ENGLISH DICTIONARY which i think we are all typing right now (at least i'm trying to :P) then i could say that qwertyuiop means martial art.


I wasn't pointing to it listing judo (altho it DOES that helps) It lists judo as a combat art that you are denying.

Judojedi said:
"any kind of combat"

So by ur own defintion it is a martial art.

So becasue an MA can be practiced primairly in a sport form (which often increases it's combat efectiveness) that means it isn't an MA?

[Freeform]

judo is learnt for shiai (contest).


No it is not, or rather this was not Kano's intention. Kano never really intended for Shiai to develop, again, refer to Kodokan Judo.

Randori is freeplay designed to improve skill, I'm not out there with the sole intention of winning, but rather developing my skills.

Shiai, you are out there to beat your opponent.

Ones competitve and the other is about development, for you to miss this point underlines your lack of understanding.

I'm off to dig out 'Kodokan Judo' by Jigaro Kano and some of the Syd Hoare books since your so fond of quotes.

Colin

[Saz]

Just because one book doesn't make a reference to it being a martial art, doesn't mean it isn't one.

Just because Kano did not specifically write "Judo is a martial art", it doesn't mean that Judo isn't. The majority of the Judo community will concur that Judo IS a martial art. If Kano hadn't meant for it to be a martial art, I'm pretty sure he would have made that clear somewhere.

This seems to be another "I am right, and you are all wrong" debate to me.

[WhiteWizard]

I seem to remember judo being developed years ago and not intentially for sport so what do you want to call it throw type playing

[totality]

on a sidenote more related to the actual question than your argument, calling judo mma is completely ridiculous. there is a significant difference between mma and nontraditional ma. these terms are not to be used interchangeably, thank you :D.

quick opinion-judo=tma

[4-n-zics]

Originally posted by judojedi
judo is learnt for shiai (contest).
I study Kodokan Judo through Karl Geis Ryu Fukakukai International (also study Tomiki Ryu Aikido and Shindo Muso Ryu Jyodo through the same) and have never trained to compete. In fact, competition was frowned upon in this organization. I train in Judo because its principles and techniques go hand-in-hand with the principles and techniques of Aikido and Jyodo...

I am new to this forum, but am a long time member of several other (non martial art) forums and have always wondered what the point of an argument (OVER THE INTERNET) is all about.

If you feel that Judo is a sport only, so be it...

If you feel that Judo is a Martial Art, so be it...

If you feel that Judo is both a Martial Art and sport, so be it...

I, for one, feel that Judo is both... just like Karate, Tae Kwon Do, Muay Thai, and any other form of 'Martial Art' that also includes, but is not limited to, forms of competition...

[fluffydoc]

Originally posted by 4-n-zics
I am new to this forum, but am a long time member of several other (non martial art) forums and have always wondered what the point of an argument (OVER THE INTERNET) is all about.



Didn't stop you taking part though did it?;)

[4-n-zics]

Originally posted by fluffydoc
Didn't stop you taking part though did it?;)
I was not arguing any point. I stated that if you feel that Judo is a sport, so be it. If you feel that Judo is a Martial Art, so be it. If you feel that Judo is both, so be it. Never once did I state that Judo IS... unlike most of the other comments in this thread...

I gave my opinion on what I feel Judo is. Saying that Judo IS, is not stating an opinion. It is a way of stating that I am right and you are wrong...

[totality]

if we didn't argue about this stuff...what would the forums be for? ;)

[4-n-zics]

Originally posted by totality
if we didn't argue about this stuff...what would the forums be for? ;)
Oh, I don't know... learning and conversation, maybe???

[Cain]

Nah! For dabating things like sparring and kata :D

|Cain|

[Disciple]

I have to say this ia very interesting arguement that brings up good points.

I consider a judo a martial art. However I consider it a marital art of throwing. That is it. There is not really much more to it, maybe some holds, but that is it. It was derived from Jujitsu, only certain techniques were chosen. I believe its orignal form was for play and contest. I do not bleieve, however, it makes it less of a martial art. Someone mentioned how a single person interperts a system determines what it is for them. I have abook that is a dictionary for martial arts. It contains karate, kendo, ninjitsu, capoeria, tae kwon do, hapkido, sumo, vaejaramushi, and judo, amoung many many others . Sumo, vaejaramushi, and judo are all combative sports. Sumo is from japan. It contains pushes, rushed, throws and a few takedowns, NO strikes. Judo contains throws, takedowns, holds, and I am not sure if there are any strikes. Vaejaramushi is an ancient Indian combat form in which 2 contestance (trial by combat justice) were placed into a ring (literal ring shape) with one knuckleduster each and could only strike the face and chest area until one died, was knocked out, or crippled.
All contain martial theory and practice, there fore I would say they are martial arts.
*on the sidenote a TKD, it is the most sport oriented, merely b/c of the large branch of olympic TKD, which derived from a larger art form and is severly limted. and Wu shu, you could argue is not a MA, by the def. which you would say judo is not, b/c it was developed by the Chinese governemtn to remove martial arts and make them gov. controled. Right now there is a large controversy of making Wushu and olympic sport*

To answer the original question, TMA. It was purely derived from Jujitsu.

[Freeform]

It was purely derived from Jujitsu.


And a little bit of Ken Jutsu, it sounds weird but believe me, it does.

[cal_JJJ]

IMHO Judo is neither a mma nor a tma (yet), but a derivitive of a tma. Weither it is a sport or a ma depends on the intended application(s) of the student.

[Sonshu]

In a shocking form though!

Still Judo you get your moneys worth and its a great work out!

[judojedi]

those of you who beleive judo is a martial art, please continue with your mis-conception. it is an extreamly common mis-conception so i suppose you can't really be blamed. :D

i feel i have made my case quiet clearly in previous posts as to why judo isn't a martial art, accept it or deny it, makes no difference.

i'm making this post to say thanks to the people who have taken part in the discussion as i have enjoyed it alot but i feel its dead in the water now with no resolution.
however next time i see neil adams i'll ask his opinion and inform you of what he said. might be next year though.

[Freeform]

This could get all childish if we all started naming dropping, couldn't it, oh wait, too late!

[judojedi]

got another name for you although not judo orientated.
terry o'neil
i have taught his daughter and my sensai and him are great friends. it was through terry that neil came down to our club.

[Cain]

Originally posted by judojedi
those of you who beleive judo is a martial art, please continue with your mis-conception. it is an extreamly common mis-conception so i suppose you can't really be blamed. :D

i feel i have made my case quiet clearly in previous posts as to why judo isn't a martial art, accept it or deny it, makes no difference.

i'm making this post to say thanks to the people who have taken part in the discussion as i have enjoyed it alot but i feel its dead in the water now with no resolution.
however next time i see neil adams i'll ask his opinion and inform you of what he said. might be next year though.

:rolleyes:

|Cain|

[Saz]

I think this thread's gone past that point where any sensible discussion can be gleaned from it...

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