Traditional Japanese Karate

[Gekido03]

I'm looking for a Traditional Japanese Karate style. Anybody know one? I need to know one and study it or else, or else,.........................I'LL NEVER GET TO STUDY THE STYLE I WANT!!! Please hurry and reply.

[Mike Flanagan]

Erm...

Shotokan
Wado Ryu
Shukokai
Goju Ryu
Ryobukai
Kyokushinkai
Shotokai

I'm sure there are a few more to add to that list.

Mike

[47Ronin]

Uechi Ryu/Shohei Ryu, Isshin Ryu, yoshikan, shotokan, Ryobu kai, Shindo Ryu, Goju kai, Shi-to Ryu, Shorin Ryu, Matsubayashi Ryu, Mawashi Ryu...........Plus Mike Flanagans list. Hmmmm lots of Karate choices out there. (There most likely are more styles out there).

[Gekido03]

I preferably need styles that started in the 1800's or before.

[Dark Blade]

You know how brutal traditional japanese karate can be right?

[Scaramouch]

Seems you need a karate history lesson? There are lots of books/ web sites out there on the subject - but to summarise, there are four main styles of traditional karate-do in Japan, all originating from Okinawa:

Goju-ryu - founded by Chojun Miyagi (1888-1953) in 1930. Developed out of Naha-te.
****o-ryu - founded by Kenwa Mabuni (1889-1952) in 1928. Influenced directly by both Naha-te and Shuri-te
Shotokan - founded by Gichin Funakoshi (1868-1957) in 1938. Born in Okinawa, Funakoshi studied karate with Yasutsune Azato, thought to be one of Okinawa's greatest experts in the art.
Wado-ryu - founded in 1939 by Hienori Otsuka. Taught karate by Gichin Funakoshi.

All these styles originate from Okinawan "Te" and were developed over the years, primarily in three Okinawan cities: Shuri, Naha and Tomari. For this reason, different forms of self-defense developed within each city and subsequently became known as Shuri-te, Naha-te and Tomari-te. Collectively they were called Okinawa-Te or Tode, 'Chinese hand'. Gradually, karate was divided into two main groups: Shorin-ryu which developed around Shuri and Tomari and Shorei-ryu which came from the Naha area.

So, if you were looking for pre-1800 karate styles these would:

A. be Okinawan (not strictly Japanese)
and B. would be Shorin-ryu and Shorei-ryu, which to my knowledge no longer exist in there original forms

Therefore, what you are after is either: Goju, ****o, Shotokan or Wado, all post 1800 but pre 1940. They all have their own qualities, I guess it is best you first suss out what clubs are available to you in your area and go and see whether the instructors' teaching style is what you are looking for.

Hope that helps..............?

[Scaramouch]

It seems that the forums don't allow certain swear-words and unfortunately one of the styles I mention is spelt S H I T O - R Y U - hence the reason for the ****o-ryu.

[YODA]

Originally posted by Gekido03
I preferably need styles that started in the 1800's or before.


In that case you need to look to Okinawa rather than Japan -failing that - China.

[Scaramouch]

I stand corrected. After a quick web search, there are some Shorin-Ryu Karate schools out there. I guess it makes it the oldest Okinawan karate style out there but it depends whether it is still taught as it was pre 1800?

[47Ronin]

HELLO!!!???? Uechi Karate is damn old. Why doesn't anyone know anything on this style, we did have the first Karate dojo in Japan after all, I mean come on!!!!!

[47Ronin]

Oh yeah, And Uechi's original style-Pan Gai Noon goes back even further.>:(

[Kosokun]

Originally posted by 47Ronin
HELLO!!!???? Uechi Karate is damn old. Why doesn't anyone know anything on this style, we did have the first Karate dojo in Japan after all, I mean come on!!!!!

Did you? What year did Uechi establish a dojo in Japan proper?

Most stories say that Uechi was pretty reclusive and didn't teach in Japan. Mark Bishop says that Uechi didn't travel to Japan until 1924, and didn't start teaching until 1925. He didn't open his "club" (Pangai Noon Ryu Karate Jutsu) in Wakayama until 1932. Funakoshi was at the Misei Juku dorm in 1923.

Do you have a reference that would indicate that Uechi was in Japan prior to Funakoshi?

Rob

[47Ronin]

Yes, I will try to dig it up tomorrow and post it.
I am not trying to come off as arrogant but I just want people to recognise Uechi Karate as much as people say that they have heard of Shotokan or Goju Karate.

Best wishes to you,

-Max

[Kosokun]

I would have thought that Uechi Ryu was well recognized in Florida. You have some great instructors of Uechi in William Hall and Roy Bedard. Good people, too.

Here in CA, we've got Alan Dollar, in my neck of the woods. Uechi's very well represented.

Rob

[47Ronin]

Very well represented but not very well recognised by the rest of the Martial Arts community :(

Maybe I should start a thread as soon as I have alot of time to write so much on it.

Note- Yoda, is there a maximum to how many words there can be put in a post?

[SoKKlab]

Originally posted by 47Ronin
Note- Yoda, is there a maximum to how many words there can be put in a post?

Just bear in mind the capacity of the Human Bladder.

[47Ronin]

I'll have to do it on a special occasion then.

[Cain]

ROFL@Sokklab :D:D

|Cain|

[Scaramouch]

I guess the message is that, regardless which style is oldest or more true to the original Okinawan forms of "Te", it will very much depend on the instructor and their affilations as to how the style is taught and that comes down to individual taste. For example some intructors may be more technical/kata oriented others might emphasise kumite - and on top of this some may demand high levels of Japanses formality whilst others will not.

Sit on on a class and afterwards talk to the instructor, you should then be in a better position to know if that style and instructor is what you are looking for.

[teegee]

Quote:
"Uechi Ryu/Shohei Ryu, Isshin Ryu, yoshikan, shotokan, Ryobu kai, Shindo Ryu, Goju kai, Shi-to Ryu, Shorin Ryu, Matsubayashi Ryu, Mawashi Ryu...........Plus Mike Flanagans list. Hmmmm lots of Karate choices out there. (There most likely are more styles out there)."


Uechi Ryu is not a Japanese style. Its founder (Kanbun Uechi) went to China from Okinawa to avoid conscription into the invading Japanese Army who were capturing Okinawa, which had been a separate Kingdom-island, not part of Japan.
Its forms and Kata are from what he learned in Southern China, Fukien province, and it is much more fluid and circular than the later-adopted Japanese versions which came to be called "Karate".
Back then, it was called "Pangai-noon" (half hard, half-soft is the rough translation...there are others.)
Upon Uechi's death, his students renamed it "Uechi Ryu" in his honor.
It is described most accurately as "Chinese-Okinawan", rather than Japanese.
It only has 8 Kata, 3 of which are original and 5 added later to give some progression between the first (Sanchin), the middle (Seisan), and the last (SanSeiRyu).

It is characterised as a close-range defense style, devoid of overt, flashy techniques and full of close-range, invisible dirty tricks. Many call it "fighting in a phone booth."

Like any style it has good/bad teachers and good/bad students.

TG
chin

[Andrew Green]

Originally posted by Gekido03
I preferably need styles that started in the 1800's or before.

Karate wasn't introduced to Japan until the early 1900's, so thats a no go ;)

The earliest "styles" don't date back before that, not even in Okinawa.

So what you are looking for doesn't really exist.

[47Ronin]

I know Uechi isn't Japanese, I named traditional Okinawan styles.
Thank you for more info on Uechi.

Pan Gai Noon Karate dates back further AG.

I really need to dig up the site I had before and post a bunch of info on Uechi Karate.

[Andrew Green]

Lots of things do, but they no longer exist in that form.

[SoKKlab]

If you want to learn pre-1800's Kara'Te', then you'll have to go learn the Fujian/ Hokkien systems such as Yong Chung, White Crane, Emperor Fist, Ng Chor Kun (Five Ancestors) etc.

That's where Te comes from, so find the source.

If you haven't already read it, then get hold of a copy of
The Bubishi (The Bible of Karate), translated etc by Patrick McCarthy (Tuttle).

This will tell you most of what you need to know about the origins of Okinawan Te/ Toudi etc from Chinese sources. It's a very good book full of excellent historical information.

[kempocos]

If you haven't already read it, then get hold of a copy of
The Bubishi (The Bible of Karate), translated etc by Patrick McCarthy (Tuttle)

Yes a very good read for any KARATEKA

[Andrew Green]

Personal preferance - go with the George Alexander translation.

[SoKKlab]

I've not read the George Alexander one,
but on yr Recommendation AG,
I shall seek it out.