[China] Chinese and the Nazis

[slipthejab]

Here's an interesting bit on little known connection between the Nazis and the Chinese. Sino-German cooperation is something that rarely if ever comes up in historical discussions on the Chinese... or for that matter the Germans.

I thought this was a rather interesting story... it certainly adds a new dimension to the KMT nationalists (Chiang Kai-shek et al). Would seem to me that this is one of the least discussed facets of modern Chinese history.

Chiang Wei-kuo (son of Chiang Kai-shek)

He studied at several universities, including Soochow University and National Chiao Tung University, but did not complete his education at either school. Chiang Kai-shek had sent his eldest son, Chiang Ching-kuo to the Soviet Union to study, but it became impossible for him to send Wei-kuo there after the KMT violently ended its alliance with the Chinese Communists in the Shanghai Massacre. Consequently, he sent Wei-kuo to Nazi Germany for military training instead. During his time in Germany, he participated in the Spanish Civil War as a tank commander in the German Condor Legion after completing his training, and then served as a Lieutenant commanding a panzer tank during the 1938 Anschluss with Austria, and finally, the invasion of Poland. Afterwards, he returned to China and quickly rose through the ranks through his father's connections. He became a major at 28, a lieutenant colonel at 29, a colonel at 32, and major general at 34.

[adouglasmhor]

There were some Chinese looking troops in the forces occupying the Channel islands during WW2, they can be seen quite clearly on old footage from the time.

[slipthejab]

more images:

[slipthejab]

another... France? Eastern Front? Russia? No.... Shanghai!!! :eek:

[Moi]

How would they have fitted into the 'big plan'?

[slipthejab]

Good question... very good question.

[slipthejab]

another image that if you changed out the Chinese characters and inserted German Blackletter script could easily be mistaken for being something straight out of Nazi Germany.

[Cathain]

Don't forget the many Muslim SS divisions as well.

http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e374/canadiansentinel/han11.jpg

How would they have fitted into the 'big plan'?

What do you mean by "big plan"?

[Moi]

Don't forget the many Muslim SS divisions as well.

http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e374/canadiansentinel/han11.jpg



What do you mean by "big plan"?

A master race

http://www.rickross.com/reference/hate_groups/hategroups164.html

[boards]

Just on the big pan, anyone know which of the three european groups nazi's considered celts to be?

[Moi]

Ginger? :D

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celtic_Studies

seems It was cool to be a Celt with Adolf.

http://www.crwflags.com/fotw/flags/qt-z_sym.html#cac

The celtic cross is probably the most popular symbol among (seemingly not only) european neonazis, even more than the traditional swastika (but that’s maybe because the swastika is banned or has its use “protected” in many countries). They base it in that Celts are “true” Europeans (i.e., of “pure” breed).
António Martins, 18 Apr 1998

[bcullen]

Holy ___ and heil Mao! :D

Seems odd that they'd be so friendly with an ally of Japan, but then I believe that union came later on.

[El Tejon]

Well, just because they are wearing German gear does not mean that the Chinese were in league with the Nazis. China took gear from everywhere when Japan invaded. The Nationalist Army was a gun collectors paradise. I've seen all kinds of guns from WWII China at gun shows.

Germany sent the KMT tens of thousands of stahlhelme in the mid-30s. However, lots of nations used the coal scuttle head bucket and were not necessarily allied with the National Socialists. Hey, if I was a Chinese soldier and had a rifle, 10 rounds of ammo, and a rice bun that had to last me all week, I'd take a free helmet, even if from the Nazis.

Individuals from many nations trained with the Nazis in the 30s (including future enemies, e.g. Russians). The Asian soliders occupying the Channel Islands were likely Tartars, but I do not know for certain. I can look it up though.

[Johnno]

Well, just because they are wearing German gear does not mean that the Chinese were in league with the Nazis.Exactly.

You see some American troops nowadays wearing helmets which look a bit like coalscuttle helmets. Doesn't mean that the USA is Nazi! (Insert utterly predictable jokes here.)

[slipthejab]

Well, just because they are wearing German gear does not mean that the Chinese were in league with the Nazis.

Actually many of them were. Especially the KMT. The Sino-German relationship had wide and long lasting effects on China and for the matter the whole region. If you'd actually read the information posted above then it's pretty hard not to count Chai Kai-shek's son as a Nazi... especially when Chiang Wei-kuo was an active member of the Waffen SS. A veteran even. That there is no denying... he studied in Berlin and carried a Nazi rank.

Surely you're not going to try to explain that away.

You can read more about Sino-German relations here:

Sino-German cooperation (1911–1941)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sino-German_cooperation_%281911%E2%80%931941%29

104

[Johnno]

It seems rather ironic that Germany and China had close ties, given Germany's alliance with Japan etc., but that's international power politics for you!

But to return once more (briefly) to the 'helmet question', I remember seeing British propaganda film of Irish soldiers from WWII supposedly wearing German coalscuttle helmets. There was something very fishy about the whole thing.

[Chimpcheng]

WOW! A side of the war I had absolutely no idea about. I just assumed that China was viewed as an enemy to Nazi Germany and Japan during the war hence all kinds of atrocities.

I am definately going to do some reading on this.

[slipthejab]

Yeah if you guys even just read the Wiki link it goes a bit further towards explaining exactly what periods the Sino-German relations lasted until. It's not all that shocking frankly. Don't get me wrong I'm not implying that relations between Nazi Germany and China were good all the time... in fact there is some real interesting reading to be done in regards to the relations at the time between Japan, China and Germany.

Take a look at the picture below... Berlin? Hamburg? Vienna? Nope... The
The Bund (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bund) in Shanghai, China. :D

[Tommy-2guns...]

awesome post, i'd have never have made the Chinese/Nazi connection and ive never heard of it before this post, well done on the find slip.

To be fair, if i wanted my son to become a great military commander in the mid/late 1930's id have sent him to train in germany too,too bad he became a nazi himself but it can hardly be said to be a suprise that he adopted the beleif system of his comrades in arms,even though he obviously clashes with the ideology.

[slipthejab]

To be fair, if i wanted my son to become a great military commander in the mid/late 1930's id have sent him to train in germany too.

Yeah the whole idea if your a powerful person in another country away to an even more powerful country isn't all that new an idea. As a matter of fact... there are any number of foreign nationals who've trained at and graduated from military schools the likes of RMA Sandhurst (http://www.sandhurst.mod.uk/). If I remember correctly they've had more than one brutal dictators sun as a graduate.

Of course the Americans have the less well known and slightly less glamorous School of the Americas (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_of_the_Americas). :p

I think much of the advantage that the Germans had was the link to the Prussians and all that entails military wise. Even today much of what was devised by Prussian strategists is still covered in top military schools. Clausewitz (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clausewitz) anyone?

[Tommy-2guns...]

you ever read his work vom krieg? if not i recomend it!

[Chimpcheng]

Those crazy chinesers, always up to something shifty... :D

[Mushroom]

Reminds me of a store in Hong Kong I saw wayy back in 2000.
They were selling clothes that was riddled with Nazi designs.
Green jackets with the Nazi flag and some German writing on the back.
T-Shirts with the Eagle on the front.
Hitler on the outside pant leg of jeans.

http://www.adl.org/PresRele/HolNa_52/Hong+Kong+IZZUE_4333.htm

There were pictures somewhere but they be gone.

[Moi]

Yeah if you guys even just read the Wiki link it goes a bit further towards explaining exactly what periods the Sino-German relations lasted until. It's not all that shocking frankly. Don't get me wrong I'm not implying that relations between Nazi Germany and China were good all the time... in fact there is some real interesting reading to be done in regards to the relations at the time between Japan, China and Germany.

Take a look at the picture below... Berlin? Hamburg? Vienna? Nope... The
The Bund (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bund) in Shanghai, China. :D


That building with the clock

[adouglasmhor]

. The Asian soliders occupying the Channel Islands were likely Tartars, but I do not know for certain. I can look it up though.

I thought that as well to be honest.

[Bassmonkey]

How would they have fitted into the 'big plan'?

Didnt China pretty much outnumber most of the allied forces just on their own due to the huge population.

It think it was something like outnumbered infantry 5-1 and tanks 3-1.

If it is the case though i would imagine hitler would have loved to use those numbers to secure russia and then the rest of the world.

This could be completely wrong mind so feel free to scoff as im at work and dont have time to research it.

But i think i heard this on history channel....or maybe the hallways of my fragile little mind.....WHY HAS ALL THE RUM GONE!

[bulkathos72]

DAM DIRTY NAZIS :woo: :eek: DIE NAZI DIE

[Polar Bear]

Didnt China pretty much outnumber most of the allied forces just on their own due to the huge population.

It think it was something like outnumbered infantry 5-1 and tanks 3-1.

If it is the case though i would imagine hitler would have loved to use those numbers to secure russia and then the rest of the world.

This could be completely wrong mind so feel free to scoff as im at work and dont have time to research it.

But i think i heard this on history channel....or maybe the hallways of my fragile little mind.....WHY HAS ALL THE RUM GONE!

As Voltaire said:
"Ney God is on the side not of the big battalions, but of the surest shots."

Numbers are not the deciding factor in most wars.

The Bear.

[Bassmonkey]

Hey Bear,

I know that marksmanship and training makes a huge difference but numbers do to if you have enough of them. And i think china had more than enough.

Thanks

[slipthejab]

Well if we want to compare numbers... those very massive numbers can easily work against the side that fields them. Ask the Persians about the time they went after the Spartans. :D

God did I really just say that?

:eek:

M...us..t....st..ab... self.... n...ow
Do..n't..... deser..ve..... to... l...ive...

[Satori81]

Fascinating thread!

In all honesty, I suppose it made sense. The Nazis were huge powerhouse then, and the whole "Master Race" shtick wasn't really that well known until far into the war.

With the aggressive politicking used by the National Socialists, it makes perfect sense that they'd try to at least keep China appeased until it didn't serve their purpose anymore.

[Johnno]

Hey Bear,

I know that marksmanship and training makes a huge difference but numbers do to if you have enough of them. And i think china had more than enough.

ThanksChina was in no position back then to make use of it's vast numbers. The country was in a mess, and had been manipulated and pushed around by foreign powers for years. After the revolution of 1911, the country was in a state of almost constant conflict, with a variety of 'warlords' competing for power, and the Kuomintang government had only theoretical control of much of the country at times.

Japan was able to conquer an awful lot of Chinese territory during the 1930's and early 1940's, despite having a much smaller population.

So numbers aren't everything!

[Chimpcheng]

So numbers aren't everything!

Indeed. Just look at the Battle of Thermopylae...

[Bassmonkey]

Ha ha ha.

I suppose that depends on if you choose to believe a story that is so far form our time and that there is no way of proving whether its legend or fact.

I would like to believe it personally as its an amazing feat, but then is it believeable due to the fact that its an amazing feat!

Ah the conjecture!

[wazzabi]

wow. so many things in this world that you don't know about. chinese in the wermacht, that's insane. especially chang kai shek's son.

[Bambi]

But to return once more (briefly) to the 'helmet question', I remember seeing British propaganda film of Irish soldiers from WWII supposedly wearing German coalscuttle helmets. There was something very fishy about the whole thing.

It would be correct though, Irish Troops wore coal scuttle style helmets in the 30s/40s. AFAIR they switched over to the Tommy type helmet at some stage while WW2 was raging in mainland europe. The Brits were ticked off that the Irish Free State remained neutral throughout the war, hence the propaganda.