the pressure to not lose

[sprint]

do you have the pressure to not lose? basically if one is say a blue belt in a room full of white belts would you have the pressure to not lose?

[slipthejab]

Pretty much yes. It's the nature of belt structures and dojo hierarchies.
Perhaps even more so in a an art such as BJJ that stands firmly by the grading system.

There are times when I've seen a high ranking belt get muscled over by someone much larger and stronger... you can see it on peoples faces that there is an issue there.

At least in my case though... being of low rank... I don't have the luxury of the pressure not to lose per say.. as I'm usually tapping. :D

[narcsarge]

Nope! Losing either means I had an off day, my opponent was better then me, or their skills were better then mine.

I take wins and losses the same. As learning experiences. Nothing more.

[sprint]

cause something strange happened to me the other day.

i was the only blue belt in an ocean full of white belts. it was just me the blue belt and about 15 white belts. i felt this pressure to not lose.

[sprint]

Nope! Losing either means I had an off day, my opponent was better then me, or their skills were better then mine.

I take wins and losses the same. As learning experiences. Nothing more.

until you are there you will not feel the pressure. but believe me bro, the stakes are high once you climb the stairs.

[narcsarge]

I have been there. Maybe you need to clarify what type of class are you talking about? Sparring? Regular class?

Really, I don't feel any pressure because of my belt color. I have been the only colored belt in a sparring class of BB 1st Dan and above and I felt no pressure that I should get my tail handed to me. In fact, I have often done quite well with upper belts in sparring. I teach our kids in our After School Program and I have been pasted a few times by them. I don't think, just because I am an adult, or a man, or a Blue Belt, adds any pressure on me to win. I just don't think that way.

In tournaments, I always spar to win. If my opponent is better, I continue to try to score. Never quiting! Even if the guy happens to be a 20 year old white belt he is still capable of taking me out.

[sprint]

I have been there. Maybe you need to clarify what type of class are you talking about? Sparring? Regular class?

Really, I don't feel any pressure because of my belt color. I have been the only colored belt in a sparring class of BB 1st Dan and above and I felt no pressure that I should get my tail handed to me. In fact, I have often done quite well with upper belts in sparring. I teach our kids in our After School Program and I have been pasted a few times by them. I don't think, just because I am an adult, or a man, or a Blue Belt, adds any pressure on me to win. I just don't think that way.

In tournaments, I always spar to win. If my opponent is better, I continue to try to score. Never quiting! Even if the guy happens to be a 20 year old white belt he is still capable of taking me out.

oh. i see.

but im talking about brazilian jiu jitsu though.

[narcsarge]

Ok, BJJ it is. I understand that there is a level of pride that you have because of your belt. That pride is warranted. But you could easily find yourself rolling with superb wrestler who just happens to be starting BJJ. He may be comfortable enough on the mat to make things tough on you. He might even beat you because he may have more time on the mats then you do. The pressure your talking about is pressure your putting on yourself. Should you win against lower belts. Most of the time, Yes! Will you ALWAYS win against lower belts. No!

[Hiroji]

I think its healthy to lose sometimes, otherwise id get bored.

[slipthejab]

I think its healthy to lose sometimes, otherwise id get bored.

Yeah there is a lot of truth to this. Often times when we lose fights we learn more than when we win them. If everything you try works in a fight all the time then you're not going to really progress much.

Granted you don't want to make a habit of losing fights. Fortunately most humans will be saved by the intervention of reality.... reality has a way of providing plenty of smackdowns. :D

[slideyfoot]

do you have the pressure to not lose? basically if one is say a blue belt in a room full of white belts would you have the pressure to not lose?

Read this (http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?p=974042#post974042). The topic is pretty much exactly what you're talking about.

I'm only a white belt (started Nov 06), so can't quite relate to the problem you're having, but I try to always approach training without ego - i.e., so what if someone who only started this week swept me or whatever? I hope that if I get promoted, I'll be able to maintain the same approach: like I'm always babbling on here, training should be about learning, not 'winning' or 'losing'.

You can learn something from everybody in training, even if they're at a lower level of skill than you (though that's often hard to judge) - simply means you handicap yourself in some way (e.g., start with them in position to RNC you, only use techniques you suck at, spend the whole spar working escapes, resetting if you get out etc).

Another thread relevant to that here (http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?p=1253088#post1253088).

[Ghost Frog]

Definitely, you are going to feel that pressure, however relaxed you are. Its a hierarchical sport based on performance, so there's no escaping that. Plus having a blue belt on in a room of whites is like having a great big target on your back.

You could always ask to start from an inferior position and say you're working your weaknesses, so you've got an excuse. Or you could do that old classic where you pretend to start teaching them as they go for a sub. :D

I have a friend who started training about a year later than me. I taught him his first moves, but he has been more consistent with training than me since. He learns a lot quicker, spends lots of time checking out new moves from books, etc, and is 10 years younger and he can pretty much tap me whenever he wants.

I found that pretty offputting for a while, but he's great to train with, so I have to put that to one side and just go for stuff, rather than going all defensive. I know some people measure success by not tapping, but I have to forget about that if I want to progress because I'm small and female and its inevitable that I get tapped loads if my opponents are going for it.

[Agutrot-]

I'm a very competitive person. I've always felt the need to win while sparring. If I lose to a blue or purple belt I feel I've let myself down. Some say this hinders my training but I disagree. My hunger to win has made me a much better fighter then those who don't care as much.

[Davey Bones]

oh. i see.

but im talking about brazilian jiu jitsu though.

It doesn't matter. Many of us have been high-ranking students in other systems. When I did kung fu there were times when I didn't want to screw something up when I was the only sihing in a room full of beginners. There were also times when I just didn't care. I found the more moments like that I had, the better I performed.

[sprint]

It doesn't matter. Many of us have been high-ranking students in other systems. When I did kung fu there were times when I didn't want to screw something up when I was the only sihing in a room full of beginners. There were also times when I just didn't care. I found the more moments like that I had, the better I performed.

"losing" in bjj is different than "losing" in kung fu. when one loses in kung fu it's all subjective. one can say since i did this that that and that i won. but with bjj its cold and hard... you get put into a painful submission and you just know you 'lost.'

[Davey Bones]

"losing" in bjj is different than "losing" in kung fu. when one loses in kung fu it's all subjective. one can say since i did this that that and that i won. but with bjj its cold and hard... you get put into a painful submission and you just know you 'lost.'

Sparring is sparring. Tripping and falling on your ass is tripping and falling on your ass. Demonstrating a technique and having a brain fart is demonstrating a technique and having a brain fart. It doesn't matter if I'm in a CMA studio, in the ring kickboxing, or rolling on the floor with a bunch of guys. I have 12 years of (on and off) training in multiple styles, I know what I'm talking about despite being a new white belt in BJJ. My past experience didn't fly out the window when I started BJJ.

EDIT: per GF's request. Better?

[Ghost Frog]

Could you possibly express that in a way that doesn't guarantee this thread collapsing into another handbag match? :rolleyes:

[Agutrot-]

I've been thai boxing for 2 and a half years and BJJ for a little over 1. Sparring in BJJ is different than sparring in thai boxing, at least in my mind. When you get submitted you have undoubtably lost, which I consider the equivolent of a knock out. Most time, while sparring, your opponent isn't trying to knock you out.

My whole point was moot anyway because all he wanted was to know about was it in terms of BJJ. Sir.

[sprint]

Sparring is sparring. Tripping and falling on your ass is tripping and falling on your ass. Demonstrating a technique and having a brain fart is demonstrating a technique and having a brain fart. It doesn't matter if I'm in a CMA studio, in the ring kickboxing, or rolling on the floor with a bunch of guys. I have 12 years of (on and off) training in multiple styles, I know what I'm talking about despite being a new white belt in BJJ. My past experience didn't fly out the window when I started BJJ.


that is your opinion then.

but to me losing in kung fu is subjective whereas losing in bjj is cold and hard.

[Ghost Frog]

If it makes you feel any better sprint, I was reading someone else's comments on this the other day and they said that the pressure to perform once they were promoted led to them stop drinking and change their diet, etc for the last few years.

[sprint]

If it makes you feel any better sprint, I was reading someone else's comments on this the other day and they said that the pressure to perform once they were promoted led to them stop drinking and change their diet, etc for the last few years.


uhhh.. okie.


:ban:

[slideyfoot]

If it makes you feel any better sprint, I was reading someone else's comments on this the other day and they said that the pressure to perform once they were promoted led to them stop drinking and change their diet, etc for the last few years.

This (http://www.bjj.eu.com/forum/index.php?topic=1790.msg10224#msg10224)? If not, similar - might have been taking the mick, though. :)

[Davey Bones]

that is your opinion then.

but to me losing in kung fu is subjective whereas losing in bjj is cold and hard.

If the only thing you can see in terms of "winning and losing" is a tap, fine. I think you have a very narrow, shallow, and imature view. I didn't leave 12 years of experience at the mat when I started bjj. I've competed, I've instructed, and I know what I know. So here we are, back at square one. When does the next round of "I'm right", "No, I'm right" begin?

[sprint]

If the only thing you can see in terms of "winning and losing" is a tap, fine. I think you have a very narrow, shallow, and imature view. I didn't leave 12 years of experience at the mat when I started bjj. I've competed, I've instructed, and I know what I know. So here we are, back at square one. When does the next round of "I'm right", "No, I'm right" begin?

it ends right here.

i will believe what i want to believe and you will believe what you want to.

mmkay?

[Ghost Frog]

This (http://www.bjj.eu.com/forum/index.php?topic=1790.msg10224#msg10224)? If not, similar - might have been taking the mick, though. :)Yeah. It was meant as a joke, actually. The idea that you have to become a monk to maintain any sort of level is a standard BJJ thing. Gracie Diet and all that. You didn't think I'd say something like that to try to motivate someone, do you? :rolleyes:

[Lekta]

do you have the pressure to not lose? basically if one is say a blue belt in a room full of white belts would you have the pressure to not lose?


If it was just free-rolling the blue-belt should have no pressure to "win or lose". When we roll in BJJ, we are not going full out (i.e. competition level) but instead we try to emphasize prefect technique over physical attributes. As a blue belt rolling with white belts, you should not be focused on trying to tap them all out, because if you are a legit blue belt, you have no need to prove yourself on white belts. Instead, you should be focusing on honing your game and perfecting your techniques. A white belt is still learning the basics and as such your comprehension of Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu should be far superior to theirs.

Many blue belts at my academy go softer on less experienced guys and let them work on their offensive game and let more advanced guys work on their defensive games. You should not only feel in control of the pace of the roll but also feel sure that you could successfully escape a majority of the techniques they do to you. As a blue belt, it will not mean that you are faster, stronger or more flexible than a white belt, but that you have amassed a great amount of Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu techniques and can use them effectively on someone of equal physical attributes. If you roll with an entire room full of white belts, it is possible you could face a D-1 wrestler or a Judo black belt. Does that mean you do not deserve the rank of blue? No, it means that someone had a great amount of other techniques from different arts that countered your current skill set.

And, if worst comes to worst and a white belt shows better technique than you, just tell him you went easy on him. :cool:

[Yohan]

If it was just free-rolling the blue-belt should have no pressure to "win or lose". When we roll in BJJ, we are not going full out (i.e. competition level) but instead we try to emphasize prefect technique over physical attributes. As a blue belt rolling with white belts, you should not be focused on trying to tap them all out, because if you are a legit blue belt, you have no need to prove yourself on white belts. Instead, you should be focusing on honing your game and perfecting your techniques. A white belt is still learning the basics and as such your comprehension of Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu should be far superior to theirs.

Many blue belts at my academy go softer on less experienced guys and let them work on their offensive game and let more advanced guys work on their defensive games. You should not only feel in control of the pace of the roll but also feel sure that you could successfully escape a majority of the techniques they do to you. As a blue belt, it will not mean that you are faster, stronger or more flexible than a white belt, but that you have amassed a great amount of Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu techniques and can use them effectively on someone of equal physical attributes. If you roll with an entire room full of white belts, it is possible you could face a D-1 wrestler or a Judo black belt. Does that mean you do not deserve the rank of blue? No, it means that someone had a great amount of other techniques from different arts that countered your current skill set.

And, if worst comes to worst and a white belt shows better technique than you, just tell him you went easy on him. :cool:

THANK YOU

Great post. The thread can be closed now.

Why worry about winning or losing in training? The only way you lose is if you didn't learn anything.

[sprint]

i don't know maybe its just where i train. but my coach/sensei/whatnot puts the pressure on us to not lose to someone of lower rank. like whenever he sees a blue belt struggling against a white belt he goes somewhere along the lines, "make the white belt tap."

its just the subtlety in his langauge. he always refers to the other guy as "the white belt." when its a white belt against white belts he would talk to them in terms of their names such as, "tim" or "mike" or whatever. but whenever its a blue going against a white he would refer to the other guy as "the white belt." take "the white belt" down what are you waiting for!

its very subtle.

whether its good or bad right or wrong thats where the pressure comes from i think.

[Davey Bones]

Does your school have a heavy focus on tourneys, by any chance? It sounds like it does. And it would certainly explain the "win at all costs" 'tude you're talking about.

[PASmith]

BJJ is very competitive.
I remember black belts from trad styles turning up at my old place and the fact that the rest of us went out of our way to tap them was a running joke. :D
Belts are targets to achieve.
It's the nature of the beast...you become a blue belt by hanging with the blues....a purple by hanging with the purples...if you ain't hanging you ain't getting that next belt.
The fact of the matter is that size, strength and experience of other things can make the distinction between belts less cut and dry than that.
Linford Christie would give ANYONE a hard time on the mats with no grappling experience whatsoever such is his athletic abilities (at least in his heyday).

[sprint]

Does your school have a heavy focus on tourneys, by any chance? It sounds like it does. And it would certainly explain the "win at all costs" 'tude you're talking about.

not really. but we do have a few people who always go to tournaments and do well consistently.

and i heard my instructor say something about "if you lose at tournaments its ok but if you lose on the streets that is when i'm really going to be mad."

but overall, no. the school has no heavy focus on tournaments.

[sprint]

BJJ is very competitive.

It's the nature of the beast...you become a blue belt by hanging with the blues....a purple by hanging with the purples...if you ain't hanging you ain't getting that next belt.


there has to be more than that. just because one can give a good even fight with someone of a particular colored belt should not mean everything.

like what if at one school all of the blue belts are 100 pounders? and maybe you just started and are 230 pounds and the 100 pound blue belts can't do anything to you. i mean you are hanging... does that automatically make you a blue belt? no.

well the point is there has to be a certain skill set attributed to a belt color.

[Davey Bones]

guess it part of the school's personality *shrug* we've seen different people from different schools espouse different ideas.

[PASmith]

"there has to be more than that. just because one can give a good even fight with someone of a particular colored belt should not mean everything."

Yeah of course. I was generalising. When I graded in BJJ under Matt Thornton he basically said you had to show appropriate skill for that grade by hanging with people of your own size at that grade.
It's not a cut and dry process though.
He stressed NOT using size or strength as a technique "patch" to cover up a lack of technical skill.

[The_Lump]

i don't know maybe its just where i train. but my coach/sensei/whatnot puts the pressure on us to not lose to someone of lower rank. like whenever he sees a blue belt struggling against a white belt he goes somewhere along the lines, "make the white belt tap."

its just the subtlety in his langauge. he always refers to the other guy as "the white belt." when its a white belt against white belts he would talk to them in terms of their names such as, "tim" or "mike" or whatever. but whenever its a blue going against a white he would refer to the other guy as "the white belt." take "the white belt" down what are you waiting for!

its very subtle.

whether its good or bad right or wrong thats where the pressure comes from i think.

That doesn't appear massivley subtle to me.

In effect, yes, there is a certain pressure to beat a lower grade, but only if they're equal weight or lower.

I have a bouncer friend who comes to my judo, and he beats me in every time because he is massive.

[sprint]

That doesn't appear massivley subtle to me.

In effect, yes, there is a certain pressure to beat a lower grade, but only if they're equal weight or lower.

I have a bouncer friend who comes to my judo, and he beats me in every time because he is massive.

but it is different in jiujitsu. the whole philosophy of this art is that one can beat a bigger, stronger guy if one has the correct technique. i don't know how it is in judo but this is how it is in bjj. so it doesn't matter if the person of lower rank is the same size or smaller. what matters is that you win and make the guy tap. you are implying that it is ok to lose in bjj to a lower rank but bigger guy. maybe you should recheck the philosophy of bjj (and not judo) where size doesn't matter.

[The_Lump]

BJJ is just a more specialised version of Judo. The philosophy is much the same. It seems to me that your view on the philosophy of BJJ is somewhat biased, probably due to your coach.

In BJJ, if you're 100 pounds and a reasonably high grade, and you're against some 300 pound guy who is a low grade but knows the basics, you will still have a very hard time aginst him, maybe even losing. But to know that he beat you mostly with strength and not technique goes some way to making it feel less bad to get beaten by a lower grade.

[Lekta]

but it is different in jiujitsu. the whole philosophy of this art is that one can beat a bigger, stronger guy if one has the correct technique. i don't know how it is in judo but this is how it is in bjj. so it doesn't matter if the person of lower rank is the same size or smaller. what matters is that you win and make the guy tap. you are implying that it is ok to lose in bjj to a lower rank but bigger guy. maybe you should recheck the philosophy of bjj (and not judo) where size doesn't matter.

That philosophy also includes the idea that you would have do every technique effortlessly and without the use of strength. But a simple question is, can you scissor sweep someone with the use of at least some force? Are you able to sweep someone without effort and without the use of strength. In all truth, BJJ can and usually will [always] allow you to defeat someone who is larger than you without the use of a great amount of effort. But do you think your techniques are that smooth? That perfect?

For awhile we had a "World's Strongest Man" competitor at our academy. Fully ripped, 350+ pounds of man-crushing muscle. His biceps was larger than my head. I could barely get under-hooks on his arms and when I went for a RNC we would just flex his neck muscles. He could of painted himself green and been the Hulk for Halloween (no joke). This man could make you rethink your abilities of BJJ and BJJ philosophy.

What I am trying to get at is simple really...
BJJ techniques allow you to use leverage against an opponent larger than you and use their strength against them. But, if you are only a blue belt and hope to use your technique on someone the size of Bob Sapp, you need to rethink you capabilities. You're not Minotauro after all.

[wrydolphin]

The thought that BJJ or any grappling sport completely neutralizes size and strength differences is a lie. Does it help? Yes. Does it give you some sort of get out of jail, able to defeat any opponant card? Definately not.

I find myself curious about your coach that he is instilling this need to beat everyone who is at a lower belt then you. How is that learning or teaching? I have found that my best training sessions and rolling sessions have been with upper belts who are less concerned about beating me then about helping me perfect what I can do and reach for what I thought I couldn't do. Sure I can dominate someone with less training then myself or smear the floor with some of the smaller and weaker women, but how is that helping them? What's the point of that, other then making myself feel better and making the club weaker because it is that much harder for them to learn.

Your view of rolling, winning and BJJ seems awefully narrow and I would highly suggest rolling with a different school or getting out to tournaments where you learn what it means to push yourself to your limits.

[sprint]

Your view of rolling, winning and BJJ seems awefully narrow and I would highly suggest rolling with a different school or getting out to tournaments where you learn what it means to push yourself to your limits.

you just contradicted yourself. first your talking about "oh its ok to lose" and then you go about saying push yourself to the limits in tournaments.

[wrydolphin]

I find myself curious as to how you think that pushing yourself to your limits is about winning. Its about pushing yourself to your limits- which is why its called pushing yourself to your limits.

Could you be any more juvenile about your training?

[sprint]

I find myself curious as to how you think that pushing yourself to your limits is about winning. Its about pushing yourself to your limits- which is why its called pushing yourself to your limits.

Could you be any more juvenile about your training?

its ok to lose to someone of your own rank but to lose to someone of a lower rank reflects the instructors incompetence of promoting. this can also be a sign of a mcdojo if your higher ranks always lose to lower ranks.

i know at my dojo i always tap out to the purple belts and above. i have never once beaten any of them.

[wrydolphin]

And you base this stunning piece of evidence on what exactly? Does it really reflect on the instructor poorly for an upper belt to take a hand in training the lower belts? Does it reflect poorly on the instructor that all belts consider the standards of the entire class to be more important then stroking their egos? Having upper belts only work on beating lower belts does not foster learning nor does it really allow a lower belt to improve at a decent pace.

After a decade of training at various arts, including BJJ, I can tell you that what you are talking about is an environment which does not foster learning or comraderie. Of course upper belts can beat lower belts- of course I can beat people with less experience. But what purpose does it serve other then to attempt to make myself feel better? Does the lower belt learn from the experience if I just tap them as quickly as possible? No. A good learning environment is when the upper belt pushes the lower belt but allows them to work techniques and to get comfortable with newer material. The lower belt should be doing the work while the upper belt lets them learn. In turn, belts higher then your own allow you to do the same.

You bandy about the word mcdojo as though you have had enough experience in MA to really know or recognize one on your own. From what you have said, I suspect you couldn't recognize a real mcdojo if it slapped you in the face.

[sprint]

Having upper belts only work on beating lower belts does not foster learning nor does it really allow a lower belt to improve at a decent pace.

that is your opinion. i don't know about you but i learn much more from a loss than from a win.

[sprint]

But what purpose does it serve other then to attempt to make myself feel better? Does the lower belt learn from the experience if I just tap them as quickly as possible? No. A good learning environment is when the upper belt pushes the lower belt but allows them to work techniques and to get comfortable with newer material.

again, that is your opinon.

[wrydolphin]

Its not opinion, sweet cheeks, its years of experience.

[hanakuso]

that is your opinion. i don't know about you but i learn much more from a loss than from a win.





LOL! You might want to think about that one.

[narcsarge]

Sprint, you asked a question and your question has been more then answered. You do not like the answers and that is your right but to act like the posters here are little more then gum on your shoe is a HUGE mistake. Based on your comments about your instructor it would seem that you train in the Cobra Kai Dojo! "Sweep the leg!" and all that.

Now I don't train BJJ so you can dismiss me and my comments as irrelevant. That is your right too. What most of these posters have tried to get across to you is that winning isn't everything. That being a higher belt working with lower belts is about you helping the lower belts learn! You should make things as difficult as possible for them but yet allow them to execute their techniques. I doubt seriously that you were trained in such a manner. If you were, the amount of time you spent unconscious has seriously affected your mental capacities and you should seek medical attention.

[Davey Bones]

After a decade of training at various arts, including BJJ, I can tell you that what you are talking about is an environment which does not foster learning or comraderie. Of course upper belts can beat lower belts- of course I can beat people with less experience. But what purpose does it serve other then to attempt to make myself feel better? Does the lower belt learn from the experience if I just tap them as quickly as possible? No. A good learning environment is when the upper belt pushes the lower belt but allows them to work techniques and to get comfortable with newer material. The lower belt should be doing the work while the upper belt lets them learn. In turn, belts higher then your own allow you to do the same.

wry, you just have to accept that there are two trains of thought in instruction of ANY art (despite the man child's protestations to the contrary):

1. students help each other. as you've stated, upper belts assist lower belts, give them enough pressure to make them work, but don't maul them.

2. every roll is a "win or lose" situation, everyone has to be tapped out in three seconds or less, and little care is given about what the underbelt is learning until they've passed some macho bs about having "proven themselves".

I think we know what train of thought sprint and his school espouses, while it would seem a majority of posters in this thread who do BJJ disagree. Go figure.