Sine wave

[Sub zero]

All explanation/arguments about the sine wavee are welcome.

BUt my main questions are

A)How many of you TKD boys do it?
B)Why do you think it is better/worse than hip twist?
CWhy does it not make ur stnce week?
D)Can you do it form an L stance?

Thanks
Jamie

[KickChick]

Ah yes, .... alll this "bobbing up & down" is it at all necessary?!

This `stepping motion' , knee spring or up/down motion causes the body to move in a "sine wave" (Hwaldung Pahdo) resulting in the whole body being involved at the moment of impact, in blocking or attacking.
This techniques is not just used for hand-techniques but is also used in kicking techniques as well. I do believe ITF-stylists tend to incorporate more of a sine wave in their execution of technique than do WTF-stylists.
The belief is that sine waving allows for greater power by utilising your body mass effectively and permits greater control over movements.
The Sine wave is (partly) created by effective use of the leg muscles which is also known as I mentioned early on, "knee spring". At the beginning of a technique you "drop" your body weight, and then increase your height before dropping again towards the end of the technique.
I tend to sometimes use a bit of sine wave in order to drop my body weight at the point of impact, once my foot hits the ground. adding a hip twist, you can generate a fair amount of power...

To understand this you really need to be able to see it performed.
And I have a link with TKD forms practised by the ITU ...
http://www.taekwondo.to/patterns.htm

From what I was told... (someone I am sure will correct me if I'm wrong), this movement was taken from Tai Chi .

[Sub zero]

Thanks. I have seen it in practice in compos , destruction etc

And i'm pretty sure Tai chi people do use their entire body in a similar priciple but do it in a different way. (IE fa jing puching etc whihc is more like a hip twist). I'm pretty sure they don't lift their rear heel.

BTW all the above is uncertain just form what i've read and been told.

Thanks KC

But can you do it form a L stane?

[Sub zero]

What do you guys think abotu the weeknesses of the heel?

[OdDs]

We are taught to use both for particular uses. Sine wave is used in many foward moving techniques, where as hip twist is used in techniques as your turn e.g. first move in Chon-Ji for you ITFers. I cant really go into details, but it is quite self explanatory.

[Ara]

Being more science orientated, I can see the physics behind how the sine wave motion generates its power. It comes from (technically) the whole body mass rising up and dropping down into the movement. Say it was a punch..force = MASSxACCELERATION. now keeping acceleration constant, say you just punched from you arm. Youd get the mass of your arm only hence the force to the target area is reduced. However if you rise with your body first and drop into the punch with the whole body, technically yor whole body mass is transmitted through tthe punch and you end up with more force on that target area. Using the hip twist, when you havent really mastered it, i think limits your power as you are not utilising your whole body. But at our school we learn a combination of the 2. the rise and fall during the movements as a sine wave, and at the end of every movement, a snap in every moving joint to generate that extra bit of power as your being the movement to an end and go to the next movement.

[Ara]

to add, the sine wave motion can technically apply to ALL moves in TKD. in practice it may be harder

[KenpoDavid]

"technically yor whole body mass is transmitted through the punch "

except for the mass supported by your legs, that is. if you want ALL your weight into it, you would have to leave the floor with both feet.

If you attack has a downward angle you can get some benefit from gravity even while standing on the floor. If your attack is horizontal or upward gravtiy will not help. However you can still get more of your mass into the strike the way you describe (and other ways too).

[Ara]

well, one of the black belts does exactly that ( im my class) as he goes up in the sine wave, he almost 'jumps' off the floor. it is hard to explain, but i have copied it to great effect. so technically i am utilising all my body weight.

[Sub zero]

Interesting ara.

BUt as he is "jumping" and may be utilising all his body weight is he not extremly vaulnerable. And wouldn't all this take a very long time do? and telegraph every movement that used it.

[Ara]

as i said its hard to explain. its very, very subtle. I only noticed after watching him many times doing high level patterns. he is still in contact with the floor, but only barely. as he rises up and falls down again, you can tell his movements are powerful as his whole body seems to decend into it. I will try to come up with a good explaination, but at the moment im too tired from uni to think of the right words :)

[C.Henry]

Wing Chun uses the concept without all the bobbing up and down. The next time you are watching baseball and they do a slow-mo replay of somebody hitting a home run you will notice the batter sinking into the swing.
I have a background that includes Muay Thai, Savate, JKD, etc., and I am very function oriented, but it hurts me to watch the ITF forms done this way. I'm sorry, but these are far and away my favorite forms and so much of their beauty is lost.
I'll continue to do them the old way. When I'm hitting real targets I use the concept.

[craigwarren]

Yes you can do sine wave in L-stance. bending at the knees. If you can check out the first two moves of won hyo (green belt pattern) the second move is a inward knife hard strike in L stance.

[Ara]

Infact won hyo is a good example. Start from ready stance A.
Drop down to the L stance and double outer forearm block. Rise up and drop doing the inward knifehand. Rise up again and drop as you do the fixed stance side punch. The 3 moves demonstrate the sine wave motion quite well. Hwa-rang also, with the first few movements.

[mattsylvester]

Hi all,

Hip Twist, as I really can't get on with the sine wave and I think that it slows the patterns down too much.

All explanation/arguments about the sine wavee are welcome.

BUt my main questions are

A)How many of you TKD boys do it?
B)Why do you think it is better/worse than hip twist?
CWhy does it not make ur stnce week?
D)Can you do it form an L stance?

Thanks
Jamie

[Tosh]

Hip Twist and Since wave wherever possible.

[mattsylvester]

Hi Tosh,

Interesting you say that because the UKTA down this way has completely dropped the sine wave. It's become a bit of a crusade for them. Is this not happening in Scotland as well?

PUMA are especially big advocates of it. Which is funny because at one point hip twist was the ONLY way to go. I remember being lectured that I didn't need to know any other martial arts because the TKD I was being taught was the only art I needed to know. You can imagine how appalled I felt as I saw other students lapping this up.

Hip Twist and Since wave wherever possible.

[mattsylvester]

Having tried performing patterns with the sine wave and watched a number of people perform them correctly, I find that the percieved effort behind them is very low. Almost like Tai Chi TKD. Does anyone else find this? I'm usually breathless after a couple of patterns but have been left cold when doing sine. Is this me or does anyone else get this?

as i said its hard to explain. its very, very subtle. I only noticed after watching him many times doing high level patterns. he is still in contact with the floor, but only barely. as he rises up and falls down again, you can tell his movements are powerful as his whole body seems to decend into it. I will try to come up with a good explaination, but at the moment im too tired from uni to think of the right words :)

[Tosh]

Interesting you say that because the UKTA down this way has completely dropped the sine wave. It's become a bit of a crusade for them. Is this not happening in Scotland as well?


Any info on schools/instructors?

I was at the 3 day course/ and grading last weekend. The UKTA Masters council was all in attendence pulling students up for incorrect sine wave.

Grandmaster Rhee regulalry still makes us sit cross legged and punch to emphasize since wave occasionaly.

Still v. interested in the schools, crusade you say? *Prepares some looting equipment* ;) :D

[mattsylvester]

I'm an arse! I meant to say Hip Twist, as in they only do the Sine Wave.

Sorry for the confusion.

Any info on schools/instructors? I was at the 3 day course/ and grading last weekend.

Master Miller, Master Culter and various other Masters were all in attendence pulling students up for incorrect sine wave.

Grandmaster Rhee regulalry still makes us sit cross legged and punch to emphasize that point occasionaly.

Still v. interested in the schools, crusade you say? *Prepares some looting equipment* ;) :D

[Tosh]

No probs :D!

Now this is something that was gone through pretty thouroughly (maybe because of this point??).

However as far as I am aware both Wales and Scotland have never "jacked it in". We were all made by GMR to perform Doo Palmok Makgi ( double forearm block ) and utilize the hip twist in order to perform the continuing reverse low outer forearm block (from Kwan-Gae) with any kind of "blocking force".

I was also told to prep blocks on a parallel line in order to utilize hip twist more effectively. Go figure :confused:

Still, same question applies though! Who, Why, When?

[mattsylvester]

PUMA - All the TKD Members.
Master Cutler when he came a couple of years ago.



No probs :D!

Now this is something that was gone through pretty thouroughly (maybe because of this point??).

However as far as I am aware both Wales and Scotland have never "jacked it in". We were all made by GMR to perform Doo Palmok Makgi ( double forearm block ) and utilize the hip twist in order to perform the continuing reverse low outer forearm block (from Kwan-Gae) with any kind of "blocking force".

I was also told to prep blocks on a parallel line in order to utilize hip twist more effectively. Go figure :confused:

Still, same question applies though! Who, Why, When?

[Tosh]

Think the active word here may be "a couple of years ago". I've been at seminars with Grandmaster Rhee every year since 1999. Never has it been suggested to drop it.

Mind you there were one or 2 occasions where I was corrected by a Master only to have GMR walk past 2 seconds later and re-correct me, who then went to go have "a chat" with said Master. :D

My sine-wave/hip-twist hand is indeed strong! :D

[mattsylvester]

I'd love to have seen that! :)

Master Cutler gave a bb a real dressing down when he asked if you sine wave for a knee (this was when they were really starting to push it around 1997/98). :)

Mind you there were one or 2 occasions where I was corrected by a Master only to have GMR walk past 2 seconds later and re-correct me, who then went to go have "a chat" with said Master. :D

My sine-wave/hip-twist hand is indeed strong! :D

[Tosh]

Master Cutler gave a bb a real dressing down when he asked if you sine wave for a knee (this was when they were really starting to push it around 1997/98). :)

Interesting scenario and depends on the context, if it's anything like most of the knees in the coloured belt patterns then they are combined with a pull and rise out of a stance. Not really much time to sine IMO.

But then again I think I've seen the TKD knees taught to about 4 diiferent targets. IMO it's groin area only and the grab that precedes it megates the req. for it. But i'm sure there are more interpretations :D

[mattsylvester]

Hiya,

But isn't the sine wave part of the rise for the knee as in 1st para? I thought that the sine was an exaggerated version of the natural rise and fall of the body? Or am I completely wrong?

Interesting scenario and depends on the context, if it's anything like most of the knees in the coloured belt patterns then they are combined with a pull and rise out of a stance. Not really much time to sine IMO.

But then again I think I've seen the TKD knees taught to about 4 diiferent targets. IMO it's groin area only and the grab that precedes it megates the req. for it. But i'm sure there are more interpretations :D

[Tosh]

Hiya,

But isn't the sine wave part of the rise for the knee as in 1st para? I thought that the sine was an exaggerated version of the natural rise and fall of the body? Or am I completely wrong?

As I said it completely depend on the context of the technique, in most of the applications in the coloured belt patterns (which are the ones I'm most sure of - the 2nd degree ones escape me a little just now ;)) I personally don't think you get enough room/time to complete the wave, but perhaps I'm just mince at it :D

I'm sure it is applicable for performing a knee in general but I'm no expert. Good seminar question though! :D

*Tosh adds to big list of questions he has - right next to chapter entitled "Low double forearm pushing block" ;)*

[TkdWarrior]

Having tried performing patterns with the sine wave and watched a number of people perform them correctly, I find that the percieved effort behind them is very low. Almost like Tai Chi TKD. Does anyone else find this? I'm usually breathless after a couple of patterns but have been left cold when doing sine. Is this me or does anyone else get this?
agreed... we r told about sine wave from day 1... and when we see our teachers move it does looks like Tai chi TKD... i don't remember being breathless as i always did patterns with sine wave. more over we always were asked to feel/see our breathe during patterns, which also might hav helped in not ending up breathless...
-TkdWarrior-

[SoulTRippeR]

sine wave, oh boy,

I first started with an instructor who trained in Korea with Genereal Choi when there was NO sine wave, everything was straight and level, like Karate. BUT, since TKD is based on scientific principles there is always room for improvment and so this has changed. the first kind of sign wave we call SAWTOOTH sine wave. here:
http://home.netcarrier.com/~js/_public/sinewave1.jpg

the idea is that as you move forward (from the left x to the right x)you raise your body and then "fall" or come down with the strike/block to increase power...Much like a wave from the ocean, the curl comming up has no power, but when it comes back down it takes all the little surfers with it :D
Now this sinewave presents a few problems to the TKD-ist. the peak of your "rise" is in the center of your step...which means your standing leg would be straight!!! And where do you go from there? if your legs are straight then how do you move forward....the only way is to fall, but there is not enough power by just using gravity. And besides, this sine wave doesn't greate enough Acceleration.
But again, this has changed... or as I now call it "improved".

http://home.netcarrier.com/~js/_public/sinewave2.jpg
Now this type of sine wave is better for a few reasons. First is that by staying level for the first half of your step, your knees are bent (which they should be! Training Secrets anyone?) and because of this you can use the "knee spring" action to Accelerate forwards into your stance.
I also think this sinewave works better since you are forced to make your technique happen at the end of your step. By this I mean with SAWTOOTH sinewave has a tendancy to make people move at one constant speed throught their step, instead of increasing speed at the end. If you view the pictures as a timeline, then you would see how the second would force you to punch/block faster. Also the focus is in being relaxed, I see people use SAWTOOTH and they bring everything up with them (their shoulders/arms/hips) and that creates tension which will ultimately make us move slower. That's bad. we need to be relaxed. right? What's Newton's second law? Force=MassxAcceleration(squared). SPEED!!!!!!

As far as my patterns go, the farther down the list of sinewave I went the slower (the pace) my patterns became. But I know that they took longer to do, but I was creating more power. I may take longer to do my patterns than some, but every move counts and every move is done with power, so if I'm not sweating by the end of Chon-Ji, then I know that I'm slacking.
Also as a quick note, let us remember that this is Forms, not fighting, if you practice it this way (with ULTRAPOWER!!!) then when you fight for real, at the very least, you will still have a trace of this technique in your movement. (i.e. I would never wind-up and use sign wave to punch someone who was attacking me. But I bet it would still be there just a little)

taekwon.

[Tosh]

(i.e. I would never wind-up and use sign wave to punch someone who was attacking me. But I bet it would still be there just a little)


Here is a point the whole point of exagarating the sine wave (at the beginning of your training is to try and incorporate it into the movements so you do it without thinking and at the same speed.

Certainly 90% of people can never get the same speed with sine wave but they are certainly can deliver more power.

It all depends how you look at it, do you see sine wave as a magical force that turns you into an uber fighter, or a tool which in some situations enabled you to generate more power than you normally would.

"Doing" sine wave and "using" it are totally different things ;)

P.s. I can "do" it great ;)

[tkdhkddave]

I think it all comes down to personal preferance, but to have any idea of each way you really need to try them both, and by that I mean learn them properly from an instructor who fully understands the pros and cons of their chosen style. I am lucky to have been taught first hip twist, then after some years we affililiated to the ITF and for the last 3 yrs have been learning sine wave. From a personal point of view I prefer sine wave, since the biomechanical aspects behind it seem to promote better use of the body with less long term stress, whereass if I compare how I was doing it before I can look back and see, and feel, where my body was being overstressed and worn (joints, tendons etc longer stances stiffer movements) but one thing I would say is that it's taken me 3 yrs to be comfortable with sine wave and be able to pull it off second nature like I used to with hip twist, so it is harder to learn for sure and that can put a lot of hip twisters off which is a shame for them.

To pick up on the point of using both, from my experience of genuine itf instructors who promote sine wave they also say use hip twist-where it occurs naturally. To me sine wave has really put the "art" back into tkd and refreshed my enthusiam for a beutiful martial art.

For the record though, my patterns do feel far more powerful now then they ever were using only hip twist.

To summarise I think there is room for both methods, as when fighting naturally for real you may use either method in some small way, not quite like it's done in patterns though! I also study Hapkido and our school is about pure combat, no patterns or set sparring and if you look close enough you can see traces of both methods of power in action although in a much more subtle way.

food for thought...most people would agree that the late Bruce Lee could handle himself in a fight, well he was an user of sine wave (seek out some of his books) even before Gen Choi introduced it in the early eighties. So there has to be something in it?

Keep Well
Taekwon
Hapkido

[Tosh]

food for thought...most people would agree that the late Bruce Lee could handle himself in a fight, well he was an user of sine wave (seek out some of his books) even before Gen Choi introduced it in the early eighties. So there has to be something in it?


First off, Welcome tkdhkddave to MAP!, enjoy your stay and post hard of post off ;) :D

Playing Devil's Advocate here but Bruce Lee was also an advocate of heavy weighted good mornings for a while....... nuff said ;)

[SoulTRippeR]

Sorry Tosh, that last one was over my head (us dumb americans) but what do you mean by "heavy weighted good mornings"?
::whispers quietly::
you don't mean drugs do you?

[Tosh]

Sorry Tosh, that last one was over my head (us dumb americans) but what do you mean by "heavy weighted good mornings"?
::whispers quietly::
you don't mean drugs do you?

Good Morning (http://www.exrx.net/WeightExercises/Hamstrings/BBGoodMorning.html)

Not for the ill-educated, faint-hearted or sensible person ;) :D

[ipscshooter]

To pick up on the point of using both, from my experience of genuine itf instructors who promote sine wave they also say use hip twist-where it occurs naturally. To me sine wave has really put the "art" back into tkd and refreshed my enthusiam for a beutiful martial art.
Do the videos linked by KickChick back on page 1 represent how you perform "sine wave"? I thought sine wave was more subtle/less pronounced than what appears there. That looks to me more like the "sawtooth" wave described and rejected by Gen. Choi in his encyclopedia. I think sine wave should look much more natural, more smooth. The way that gentleman performs, to my eye at least, takes the beauty and flow completely out of the forms.

[toothpaste100]

I talked to a guy in my former class who used to be in ITF about sine wave and he said it was about keeping your body movements equal on both sides so that they balance eachother out (for every step left you need a step right), though this is contrary to what everyone here has said! Is this actually anything? This guy also thinks ITF is from South Korea so I think he may have forgotten things....

[tkdhkddave]

I think the patterns are not to bad, that Guy does a nice job of moon-moo too. Mayb e you are being a bit too hard on them ipscshooter! ok so in some cases they were not performed just how Gen Choi would have liked but that is often down to the individual right?
If I were to be critical maybe some times they could have used the whole body better and not been so stiff in cases. But If I were to list my own errors I'll be here all day!

[oni_sensei]

The man performing in that video is in fact exaggerating the sine wave. Intentionally or non, the motion is almost like a sawtooth action. Correct sinewave uses the natural action of the body with and against gravity, and is indeed much more fluid and "softer" than portrayed there. The knees are only bent as much as they would when they are completely relaxed, and the body's centre of gravity generally only rises and falls about an inch either side of the normal height, maybe two or three, depending on your height. ITF/Tradtional TKD looks rather relaxed, but refined when performed correctly, except of course at the final destination of a technique, when we exhale on impact and tense the body for that split second.

[paulol]

food for thought...most people would agree that the late Bruce Lee could handle himself in a fight, well he was an user of sine wave (seek out some of his books) even before Gen Choi introduced it in the early eighties. So there has to be something in it?

Keep Well
Taekwon
Hapkido

Mr. Lees 1 inch punch was all about a hip-twist :D

[Nick K]

Can I request some further correspondence on this one

TAGB - hip twist
PUMA -sine wave
Current incarnation - a bit less sine wave but also a corkscrewing downwards motion.

I do sine wave naturally now - been doing it for 3 years or so - but I'm still puzzled by the physics. Consider a straight midsection punch. I want to tranmit as much force forwards as possible. How can adding an essentially downwards force - dropping my body vertically - add power forwards? It can't unless the strike is more or less in a downwards motion. Hip twisting seems more logical, but I understand fell out of favour with my lot due to a risk of damage to the lower back. Our club is with Mr Sahota's group now, and he seems to advocate a corkscrew down motion - almost like sine wave and a bit of hip twist. There are other things in favour of sine wave. It looks very graceful when done well and does keep you light on your feet, not flta footed. The heel should be down at the moment of impact, I understand. I can do it with front kicks, but not easily with turning or side kicks.

So, what is the state of the art, then?

[sean]

some interesting stuff, its great when different TKD organisations chat IMO

We`re taught at my ITF school that when board breaking with fists we use sine wave along with the hip/torso movement, and with patterns, up/down the hall aswell. But in sparring we dont use any sine wave, it allows your opponent to know when an attack in on its way.

[tkd_master]

I'm in the TAGB and I want to know if people use sine wave in competitions.

[Mitch]

I'm in the TAGB and I want to know if people use sine wave in competitions.

TAGB does not generally use sine wave in patterns. Certainly not the exaggerated motion. Sorry Kungfu_Master, if I'd known your question was specifically about TAGB I'd have answered it earlier rather than sending you off to look at old sine wave threads.

Mitch

[tkd_master]

Thanks very much for the info.

[Kintanon]

Wing Chun uses the concept without all the bobbing up and down. The next time you are watching baseball and they do a slow-mo replay of somebody hitting a home run you will notice the batter sinking into the swing.
I have a background that includes Muay Thai, Savate, JKD, etc., and I am very function oriented, but it hurts me to watch the ITF forms done this way. I'm sorry, but these are far and away my favorite forms and so much of their beauty is lost.
I'll continue to do them the old way. When I'm hitting real targets I use the concept.

It pisses me off to see people using the sine wave at black belt level and bouncing UP and DOWN like 8-10 inches. At an advanced level the sine wave only needs to be a 1 inch or so motion. I do the sine wave and the hip twist, but I don't look like a freaking jack in the box when I'm doing it.

Kintanon

[Gould]

I'm in the TAGB and I want to know if people use sine wave in competitions.

At the English this year I remember judging red belt boys patterns with a non TAGB ITF'er performing sine wave, it was very strange judging the pattern but I 've never seen TAGBers perform sine-wave in class or competetion.

[EternalRage]

Being more science orientated, I can see the physics behind how the sine wave motion generates its power. It comes from (technically) the whole body mass rising up and dropping down into the movement. Say it was a punch..force = MASSxACCELERATION. now keeping acceleration constant, say you just punched from you arm. Youd get the mass of your arm only hence the force to the target area is reduced. However if you rise with your body first and drop into the punch with the whole body, technically yor whole body mass is transmitted through tthe punch and you end up with more force on that target area. Using the hip twist, when you havent really mastered it, i think limits your power as you are not utilising your whole body. But at our school we learn a combination of the 2. the rise and fall during the movements as a sine wave, and at the end of every movement, a snap in every moving joint to generate that extra bit of power as your being the movement to an end and go to the next movement.

Hrmmm, well the physics behind hip twisting is easy, it is just torque, which is the rotational analog of force, since torque = inertia * rotational acceleration. You can also relate torque = force x distance (between pivot point and point of force) x sin theta. If you are rising up and then dropping your weight, wouldn't that be force = mass x gravitational acceleration? g = 9.8 m/sec^2, so that would mean that to increase force from the sine wave, you would have to gain weight... Whereas with torque, there is no cap, since you generate your own rotational acceleration.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, I don't know too much about sine wave, the ITF club here at my university doesn't do it.

[StuartA]

http://www.raynerslanetkd.com/ARTICLES_Patterns_Sinewave.html

:)

[MaverickZ]

the sine wave is garbage, pure garbage.

[tkd_master]

the sine wave is garbage, pure garbage.


Try doing sitting stance punches with or without it then come back. I just hope your not an instructor or something :rolleyes: .

[Alexander]

the sine wave is garbage, pure garbage.
Actually I'm inclined to agree with Maverick, KungfuMaster.

Generally I've held that "if you 'feel' like your getting more power then you are". But I think the sine wave is the exception.

Breaking it down into the vectors you have the vertical force and the horizontal. To get power on a target you have to hit it directly at the appropriate vector - i.e. the one that will penetrate straight through it. This vector will be a combination of the two vector.

To me that means - let's assume the move we're talking about is a straight punch to the solar plexus - getting as much force through the target as possible. Force = Mass X Acceleration. So obviously you're going to have to be quick to get power. But your also going to have to make all your mass be behind the technique. So in the case of the staight punch all the mass will have to be going forward - on one vector. That's why I use the hip twist (plagarised from Shotokan - so my forms are '0ld sk00l').

With sine wave through it seems like the mass is not going forward. It's split across two vectors - the one going forwards and the one going downwards. On a straight punch the downward power is pretty pointless and seems it might actually cause the punch to skim a target anyway.

My other gripe with the sine wave is that it can take to much time. I've never seen anyone use it in free sparring against me - by contrast I do use the hip twist in free sparring.

StartA, care to correct me? I want to hear someone else's opinion on this.

[StuartA]

StartA, care to correct me? I want to hear someone else's opinion on this.

If you mean me.. StuartA.. why would I correct what I agree with :rolleyes:

I take it you didnt read the now (in)famous article I wrote then.. and posted the link on this thread!!

Stuart

[MaverickZ]

Try doing sitting stance punches with or without it then come back. I just hope your not an instructor or something :rolleyes: .

at which point in your martial arts career did you find yourself doing "sitting stance punches" during a match?

me? never

i'm not sure what me being an instructor has anything to do with the idea that the sine wave has NO real basis in any real physics, mechanics, dynamics, or whatever other kinematics you want to talk about OR real life application. it's an artificial construct attached to an already artificial construct.

Stuart, i read your article a long time ago. good job on it, i like what you have to say.

By the way, Choi's little diversion into physics is hilarious. all respect to the dead, but that stuff is just..... plain wrong.

[Alexander]

If you mean me.. StuartA.. why would I correct what I agree with :rolleyes:

I take it you didnt read the now (in)famous article I wrote then.. and posted the link on this thread!!

Stuart
Arrgh, sorry!

I read the article late last night whilst procrastinating intensely for an exam today! Mind was not really switched on! I'll re-read it later.

[NewLearner]

Actually I'm inclined to agree with Maverick, KungfuMaster.

Generally I've held that "if you 'feel' like your getting more power then you are". But I think the sine wave is the exception.

Breaking it down into the vectors you have the vertical force and the horizontal. To get power on a target you have to hit it directly at the appropriate vector - i.e. the one that will penetrate straight through it. This vector will be a combination of the two vector.

To me that means - let's assume the move we're talking about is a straight punch to the solar plexus - getting as much force through the target as possible. Force = Mass X Acceleration. So obviously you're going to have to be quick to get power. But your also going to have to make all your mass be behind the technique. So in the case of the staight punch all the mass will have to be going forward - on one vector. That's why I use the hip twist (plagarised from Shotokan - so my forms are '0ld sk00l').

With sine wave through it seems like the mass is not going forward. It's split across two vectors - the one going forwards and the one going downwards. On a straight punch the downward power is pretty pointless and seems it might actually cause the punch to skim a target anyway.

My other gripe with the sine wave is that it can take to much time. I've never seen anyone use it in free sparring against me - by contrast I do use the hip twist in free sparring.

StartA, care to correct me? I want to hear someone else's opinion on this.

I think your vector idea is wrong. The vector does have to be a perfectly straight penetration to be effective. The sine wave is all about increasing the amount of mass that is thrown behind your punch. If some of the additional force that is created is going downward, why is that a big deal. If I punch somebody, it is usually to be going downward anyway unless I want to punch their hair. If I hit you in the jaw, will it make any difference between whether or not part of the force is going downward? The extra force still hit you.

If you look at hip twist, you vector is not straight forward either.

[tkd_master]

To put it in lamens terms, if you were to drop from a height of say.. 1 metre, and punch someone at the point of terminal velocity (lets ingnore the idea that you can gain power buy standing on the floor for aguarments sake) there would undoubtably be an increase in power than standing still.

Now, a drop from 0.05 metres would still increase the power. Even if it is by a miniscule amount. Im not talking fancy bouncy upy downy, but a drop as you punch.

[Moosey]

I thought the idea was that if you get a whole classful of TKD students doing it simultaneously but slightly out of phase, it Fourier-synthesises into a line of force moving in a straight line. Therefore, if you statistically average a class of sine wavers, you have one powerful punch striking your opponent.

TKD is the scientific martial art, so they've taken it to the next level and statistically produced one immensely powerful hypothetical fighter by using waveforms. They've been doing it in theoretical physics for years - it's about time the martial arts caught up!

[Mitch]

I thought the idea was that if you get a whole classful of TKD students doing it simultaneously but slightly out of phase, it Fourier-synthesises into a line of force moving in a straight line. Therefore, if you statistically average a class of sine wavers, you have one powerful punch striking your opponent.

TKD is the scientific martial art, so they've taken it to the next level and statistically produced one immensely powerful hypothetical fighter by using waveforms. They've been doing it in theoretical physics for years - it's about time the martial arts caught up!

And if you have an infinite number of TKDers doing an infinite number of sine waves will they eventually come up with a powerful punch? ;) :)

Mitch

[Nick K]

Anothe Moosey classic. I'm not at all sure about sine wave, although I do it faithfully, apart from the aesthetics, and Im glad to see someone else is struggling to understand how if you add a force vector in a vertical plane, it adds force in the horizontal plane. In addition, when I'm sparring, it disappears. And in self defence. And when Im using weapons. Or grappling. Hmmmmmm.

[Moosey]

And if you have an infinite number of TKDers doing an infinite number of sine waves will they eventually come up with a powerful punch? ;) :)

Mitch
That's why TKD is so popular - it needs the large number so the number of waveforms tends towards infinity! :D

To put it in lamens terms, if you were to drop from a height of say.. 1 metre, and punch someone at the point of terminal velocity (lets ingnore the idea that you can gain power buy standing on the floor for aguarments sake) there would undoubtably be an increase in power than standing still.

But only in the downwards vector isn't it?

In the diagram below, Man 1 has jumped off a big building to hit the target man and Man 2 has jumped off a small building. Assuming they're both equal in mass and punching technique etc etc, they'll both be hitting the guy along the X-axis with force X1, only the Y value will be different because of the difference in velocity at the point where the men punch.

[NewLearner]

Stuart,

I have just finished reading your page about sine wave for the 2nd time (once about a month ago). I have to say that I feel there are some problems with the page.

You correctly point out increasing speed increases the kinetic energy (btw, technically the formula is for figuring kinectic energy). However, which is easier to increase the speed or the amount of mass that will be used? The theory behind sine wave is to get more of your body mass into the movement and increase power because you can't increase speed but so much.

Diagram #2 is so exaggerated that it really doesn't show anything. Start off with the fact that the colored belt is leaning further back which means that he has further to go as well as having a wider stance which takes longer to move from. Additionally he is substantially shorter than his black belt opponent. Add in that the colored belt does an extremely exaggerated bobbing motion versus someone that you can't really tell if their feet have moved at all and you would expect the black belt to get the punch off first. Who wouldn't expect it to come out that way even if you totally removed the sine wave from the equation.

Finally, the experiment with Tim Murphy is even worse. Using 2 people is not enough. Either they use sine wave so it feels more natural to them or they don't and it doesn't. That will have a huge impact on the test. Also, we know nothing about the size (mass) or speed of the people.

The only way to really test sine wave is robotically. Any other method will introduce variables that make the test unreliable at best. You need to have something with equal mass that accelerates at the same speed and then chooses to either go straight or drop it's weight per sine wave theory. Perhaps this could be sent to MythBusters?

[NewLearner]

That's why TKD is so popular - it needs the large number so the number of waveforms tends towards infinity! :D



But only in the downwards vector isn't it?

In the diagram below, Man 1 has jumped off a big building to hit the target man and Man 2 has jumped off a small building. Assuming they're both equal in mass and punching technique etc etc, they'll both be hitting the guy along the X-axis with force X1, only the Y value will be different because of the difference in velocity at the point where the men punch.

I think what people are forgetting is that when you punch someone, it isn't a case of you having to punch in a straight line like if you were push a bullet through a gun barrel. Instead, you are trying to make contact with the most amount of force possible. It doesn't matter if you have a slight downward motion in the punch because there is nothing that you have to line up with. You are effectively making your own hole in the target, figuratively of course.

[MaverickZ]

moosey has roundkicked the correct.

as far as the butchering of physics and kinematics that's going on, please refer to: http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=25043

the bottom line: the interaction of a two bodies and the ground is much too complex during a strike to use such simplified equations as being discussed above

[NewLearner]

Out of that bullshido thread, you can see the following:

In terms of physics, Omar summed it up best:
More weight = Good
More speed = Good
More strength = Good.

Anything more is overkill and can be debated till your ass falls off.

Here is a little something I posted a while back:

Compete Against The Computer.(computerized boxing bag)(Brief Article)
Current Science, Sept 22, 2000, by Rene S. Ebersole
U.S. flyweight boxer Jose Navarro, 18, packs a powerful punch in his 112-pound body. And he knows just how powerful because, while training for the Sydney Olympics, he hit a computerized boxing bag that measures the force, or push, of his punch.
On the outside, the bag looks like any ordinary punching bag. But encased in the bag are two accelerometers--instruments that measure acceleration. Acceleration is the change in a moving object's velocity (speed).
The whole principle of the bag owes a debt to Isaac Newton, the English physicist and mathematician. One of Newton's claims to fame is his Second Law of Motion. This law holds that force is equal to mass multiplied by acceleration. Multiplying the bag's mass, or weight, by the acceleration of the punched bag yields the force of a boxer's punch.
Wires from the heavy bag and a video camera plug into a computer, allowing coaches to watch real-time videos of boxers punching the bag side by side with a graph that shows the force of their punches. One important piece of information coaches can read from the screen is the impulse of each punch. That's arrived at by multiplying the force of the punch by the length of time it's in contact with the bag. The most powerful blows have a high impulse rating.
At 165 pounds, Jeff Lacey is the hardest hitter on the U.S. boxing team. Lacey's opponents get hit with the force of a 1,067-pound impulse! That's like running into a brick wall!

U.S. boxing coach Tom Mustin can't help but be surprised every time his team goes up against the bag. Before this technology came along, he said, coaches could only guess at an athlete's power. "Now, the computer heavy bag lets you make [positioning] adjustments to increase power."
Jose Navarro agrees. "The coaches go over what you're doing wrong, and that helps a lot," he said. "If I correct my mistakes, I'll be more effective."
COPYRIGHT 2000 Weekly Reader Corp.COPYRIGHT 2001 Gale Group

Increase the amount of mass behind the strike or the speed and you will increase the striking power of your blow. Improve the quality of your technique such that the blow has better leverage or is more concentrated and you will do better. Strike in a sensitive place so that the strike does more damage and you will do better.

[StuartA]

Stuart,
The theory behind sine wave is to get more of your body mass into the movement and increase power because you can't increase speed but so much.
Even if it did increase power, the speed of execution still negates it to the dustbin! (I refer to the excessive down/up/down bobbing version here)

Diagram #2 is so exaggerated that it really doesn't show anything.
Well this was how people were exagerating the movemenet whent he article was written. Funnly, since then the exaggeration has died off a little - but still not enough IMO

Start off with the fact that the colored belt is leaning further back which means that he has further to go as well as having a wider stance which takes longer to move from. Additionally he is substantially shorter than his black belt opponent.
The pictures taken back then arnt the best in the world, though someone being shorter than another is simply real life! If it only works for people of equal size and proportion its a waste of time as well


Add in that the colored belt does an extremely exaggerated bobbing motion versus someone that you can't really tell if their feet have moved at all and you would expect the black belt to get the punch off first.
The belts are irrelevant. the exagerated bobbing motion was how it was being performed as I said - and still is in many cases (see above)

Who wouldn't expect it to come out that way even if you totally removed the sine wave from the equation.
Well, look at it this way, all things being equal (size, skill etc) the non-sinewave would hit first.

Finally, the experiment with Tim Murphy is even worse. Using 2 people is not enough. Either they use sine wave so it feels more natural to them or they don't and it doesn't. That will have a huge impact on the test. Also, we know nothing about the size (mass) or speed of the people.[/quoted] Granted, though its all the data he had. None of which negates the speed aspect which is the ain point of the article really.

[quote]The only way to really test sine wave is robotically.
Or you could test it out when your attacked next!

Perhaps this could be sent to MythBusters?
now theres a good idea LOL

Stuart

[MaverickZ]

Out of that bullshido thread, you can see the following:



Increase the amount of mass behind the strike or the speed and you will increase the striking power of your blow. Improve the quality of your technique such that the blow has better leverage or is more concentrated and you will do better. Strike in a sensitive place so that the strike does more damage and you will do better.

speaking in general terms, all of that is completely correct. because we know what "things" matter; mass, speed, acceleration, direction.

it's when you try to model it that things get ugly in most forum threads on the subject. cause a) it's highly complicated and b) most people don't have the education to be accurate about what and how to model.

what the sine wave theory does is make you use up stored chemical energy for that silly bouncing. instead of using that spare energy to create more torsion in the hips. it's a waste of energy without any noticeable improvement.

and really, at the end of the day, this is a pricinple that's almost exclusively being applied to forms. who cares how much force you can generate in a form. that's only barely applicable to real fighting.

the entire discussion is just plain moot.

[StuartA]

speaking in general terms, all of that is completely correct. because we know what "things" matter; mass, speed, acceleration, direction.

Agree with that. Complicated Maths & Physics aside, I guess it comes to what the most important part is, is -

a - To throw a more powerful* technique but be too slow to actually land it
b - To throw a less powerful* technique, and actually hit the target

if the answer is a - down/up/down sine wave in patterns should be perfected

if the answer is b - it shouldnt and the speed side of things should be used.

The '*' symbol is to show I dont agree with the opinion that it makes it more/less powers and even if it did by a substancial amount, why do boxers not use it!!!

Stuart

[MaverickZ]

Agree with that. Complicated Maths & Physics aside, I guess it comes to what the most important part is, is -

a - To throw a more powerful* technique but be too slow to actually land it
b - To throw a less powerful* technique, and actually hit the target

if the answer is a - down/up/down sine wave in patterns should be perfected

if the answer is b - it shouldnt and the speed side of things should be used.

The '*' symbol is to show I dont agree with the opinion that it makes it more/less powers and even if it did by a substancial amount, why do boxers not use it!!!

Stuart

good point. is the increase in power really worth the trouble of the sine wave stuff. i say no. the trick to powerful hitting is timing and technique. the sine wave has a "warm up" period, which screws up timing. i believe that most people have more than enough ability to generate enough speed to knock someone out. it's the timing that's hard.

and a lot of "mass" can be "made up" with technique. why are those things in quotes? because the "mass" is a virtual mass that is created from pushing off the ground. and all proper technique does is let you use more of your strength of muscle to create more "mass". the actual mass of your limbs is not quite as important as some people make it out to be. most adults have enough mass to generate the force necessary for a knockout.

it's ALL about timing and proper technique to generate more force. (and no, F=m*a does not work here)

[StuartA]

the actual mass of your limbs is not quite as important as some people make it out to be. most adults have enough mass to generate the force necessary for a knockout.
exactly, but its all wasted if they are too slow to hit the target and get hit first!


it's ALL about timing and proper technique to generate more force. (and no, F=m*a does not work here)

Besides, wouldnt the opponent bobbing down give the non-sine wave a downward motion when they hit (as they would be lowered if the speed elements were equal), adding extra mass in to their own technique as its now on a downward path) + hip twist... oooooooooh, thats too complicated to even comprehend lol :woo:

Stuart

[MaverickZ]

exactly, but its all wasted if they are too slow to hit the target and get hit first!




Besides, wouldnt the opponent bobbing down give the non-sine wave a downward motion when they hit (as they would be lowered if the speed elements were equal), adding extra mass in to their own technique as its now on a downward path) + hip twist... oooooooooh, thats too complicated to even comprehend lol :woo:

Stuart

whoa whoa whoa.... now both people are bobbing up and down....
at this point all i can imagine is a weird game of whackamole.

[StuartA]

whoa whoa whoa.... now both people are bobbing up and down....
at this point all i can imagine is a weird game of whackamole.

No, the punch would just be on a downward trajectory as the oppoenet has lowered their body to perform sine wave and thus teh downward trajectory has the same effect as the sine-wave without forminga sine wave - so its still fast! Like I said, tooooooo complicated for comprehension.

Wack-a-mole - tkd styke LOL :)

Stuart

[MaverickZ]

No, the punch would just be on a downward trajectory as the oppoenet has lowered their body to perform sine wave and thus teh downward trajectory has the same effect as the sine-wave without forminga sine wave - so its still fast! Like I said, tooooooo complicated for comprehension.

Wack-a-mole - tkd styke LOL :)

Stuart

so... this would also depend on whether the two opposing sine waves are in constructive or destructive interference

[EternalRage]

I think your vector idea is wrong. The vector does have to be a perfectly straight penetration to be effective. The sine wave is all about increasing the amount of mass that is thrown behind your punch. If some of the additional force that is created is going downward, why is that a big deal. If I punch somebody, it is usually to be going downward anyway unless I want to punch their hair. If I hit you in the jaw, will it make any difference between whether or not part of the force is going downward? The extra force still hit you.

If you look at hip twist, you vector is not straight forward either.

In the sine wave, you are increasing the amount of mass that is moving downward. Your punch is not moving in that direction, it is moving perpendicular to your dropped mass. Unless you are 6'10 there's no real reason you should be punching down. The only way that the sine wave would be efficient and used to its fullest extent is if you punch straight into the floor.

As for the hip twist, when you do it with a punch, you are not only twisting it out, but you are using your forward momentum to drive it forward, so it's not restricted to rotational acceleration. In fact, it is the rotational acceleration and normal acceleration put together that gives you the added power.

To put it in lamens terms, if you were to drop from a height of say.. 1 metre, and punch someone at the point of terminal velocity (lets ingnore the idea that you can gain power buy standing on the floor for aguarments sake) there would undoubtably be an increase in power than standing still.
Again, this would only be efficient if you are punching straight down.

[StuartA]

so... this would also depend on whether the two opposing sine waves are in constructive or destructive interference

http://www.gosmiley.com/confused/confused.gif

[NewLearner]

Even if it did increase power, the speed of execution still negates it to the dustbin! (I refer to the excessive down/up/down bobbing version here)


Well this was how people were exagerating the movemenet whent he article was written. Funnly, since then the exaggeration has died off a little - but still not enough IMO


The pictures taken back then arnt the best in the world, though someone being shorter than another is simply real life! If it only works for people of equal size and proportion its a waste of time as well



The belts are irrelevant. the exagerated bobbing motion was how it was being performed as I said - and still is in many cases (see above)


Well, look at it this way, all things being equal (size, skill etc) the non-sinewave would hit first.

Finally, the experiment with Tim Murphy is even worse. Using 2 people is not enough. Either they use sine wave so it feels more natural to them or they don't and it doesn't. That will have a huge impact on the test. Also, we know nothing about the size (mass) or speed of the people. Granted, though its all the data he had. None of which negates the speed aspect which is the ain point of the article really.


Or you could test it out when your attacked next!


now theres a good idea LOL

Stuart

To be honest, I haven't been around TKD as long as most on here have, but I have never seen the exaggerated bobbing up and down and super slow movement. Perhaps you guys do it differently over there? When I see my instructor do it, it is about an inch or so, not eight inches and going on your tip toes.

The issue with diagram 2 is that it was a stacked deck. It has nothing to do with their belt color. The comments about colored belt were just identifying the people. The taller person with the longer arms will make contact while the other person is still out of range. Likewise, the person that is leaning further back and has a wider stance is going to be slower. Diagram 2, it seems, is custom designed to prove a point but fails to do because of how it is set up.

As you say, all things being equal, the nonsine wave one will hit first. The question is what fraction of a second will it hit first and will that small smidgen of a second save you from getting hit by the more powerful hit? My guess is that it will not save you from getting hit. If that is the case, other than in stop point sparring, does having a fraction of a second faster strike really accomplish anything?

Since the speed of the punch is the speed of your hand and your body combined and since the weight is dropping as you move forward, does this not actually increase the total speed of the punch even though it may take longer for the punch to arrive?

[NewLearner]

In the sine wave, you are increasing the amount of mass that is moving downward. Your punch is not moving in that direction, it is moving perpendicular to your dropped mass. Unless you are 6'10 there's no real reason you should be punching down. The only way that the sine wave would be efficient and used to its fullest extent is if you punch straight into the floor.

As for the hip twist, when you do it with a punch, you are not only twisting it out, but you are using your forward momentum to drive it forward, so it's not restricted to rotational acceleration. In fact, it is the rotational acceleration and normal acceleration put together that gives you the added power.


Again, this would only be efficient if you are punching straight down.

I disagree. As I said before:
I think what people are forgetting is that when you punch someone, it isn't a case of you having to punch in a straight line like if you were push a bullet through a gun barrel. Instead, you are trying to make contact with the most amount of force possible. It doesn't matter if you have a slight downward motion in the punch because there is nothing that you have to line up with. You are effectively making your own hole in the target, figuratively of course.

[MaverickZ]

To be honest, I haven't been around TKD as long as most on here have, but I have never seen the exaggerated bobbing up and down and super slow movement. Perhaps you guys do it differently over there? When I see my instructor do it, it is about an inch or so, not eight inches and going on your tip toes.

The issue with diagram 2 is that it was a stacked deck. It has nothing to do with their belt color. The comments about colored belt were just identifying the people. The taller person with the longer arms will make contact while the other person is still out of range. Likewise, the person that is leaning further back and has a wider stance is going to be slower. Diagram 2, it seems, is custom designed to prove a point but fails to do because of how it is set up.

As you say, all things being equal, the nonsine wave one will hit first. The question is what fraction of a second will it hit first and will that small smidgen of a second save you from getting hit by the more powerful hit? My guess is that it will not save you from getting hit. If that is the case, other than in stop point sparring, does having a fraction of a second faster strike really accomplish anything?

Since the speed of the punch is the speed of your hand and your body combined and since the weight is dropping as you move forward, does this not actually increase the total speed of the punch even though it may take longer for the punch to arrive?

you are overestimating the importance of "power" (that should really be called force of impact and not power) and underestimating the importance of split second timing.

to answer your question, yes, a fraction of a second faster strike really DOES accomplish something.

[NewLearner]

you are overestimating the importance of "power" (that should really be called force of impact and not power) and underestimating the importance of split second timing.

to answer your question, yes, a fraction of a second faster strike really DOES accomplish something.


Ok, if the fraction of a second is too small to do any thing about the approaching strike, what real difference does it make? If you are still going to get hit and you can't avoid it, how will it make a difference?

[StuartA]

To be honest, I haven't been around TKD as long as most on here have, but I have never seen the exaggerated bobbing up and down and super slow movement.
Watch the video links on the article. This was the reason i put pen to paper, not the original sine-wave or what many now term natural Motion to diffientiate from the new 'bobbing' version.

Perhaps you guys do it differently over there? When I see my instructor do it, it is about an inch or so, not eight inches and going on your tip toes.
If that is the case, and there is NO drop between movements then you are doing it as the original masters did and as per diagram 1 in the article.

The issue with diagram 2 is that it was a stacked deck.
I drew it free hand and my drawing is crap - it was simply to show the difference between the 2.

It has nothing to do with their belt color. The comments about colored belt were just identifying the people.
Well you said the guy that was a black belt woudl hi first cos he was a black belt!! Hence what i replied.

The taller person with the longer arms will make contact while the other person is still out of range.
Not if the shorter guy responds more quickly.. either way, its splitting hairs really as if they were totally equal, the outcome would be the same due to the way the *new* sinewave slows down the technique.

Likewise, the person that is leaning further back and has a wider stance is going to be slower. Diagram 2, it seems, is custom designed to prove a point but fails to do because of how it is set up.
There was no deliberate stacking of anything, thats simply how the photos came out.

As you say, all things being equal, the nonsine wave one will hit first. The question is what fraction of a second will it hit first and will that small smidgen of a second save you from getting hit by the more powerful hit?
Well the way the *new* sinewave is performed its a litle more than a fraction of a second!

My guess is that it will not save you from getting hit. If that is the case, other than in stop point sparring, does having a fraction of a second faster strike really accomplish anything?
With a dehabilitaking strike... the one that hits first wins.. its that simple. BTW - i have never seen anyone use sine-wave ina points stop comp - they too would get slaughtered points-wise because this is based on speed and accuracy as well - just the level of contact and contexts of the fight is different.

Since the speed of the punch is the speed of your hand and your body combined and since the weight is dropping as you move forward, does this not actually increase the total speed of the punch even though it may take longer for the punch to arrive?
In theory.. but I say again, the wind up and execution is too slow to make its use effective even if it did expedentially increase force to that of a jumbo jet. Hip twist increase speed and power without sacrficing the speed element for the power element.

Stuart

[MaverickZ]

Ok, if the fraction of a second is too small to do any thing about the approaching strike, what real difference does it make? If you are still going to get hit and you can't avoid it, how will it make a difference?

you need to spar more. like... A LOT more.

[NewLearner]

you need to spar more. like... A LOT more.

Perhaps you could try to answer the question. Let me rephrase the question in case you didn't understand it.

Two fighters are both going to throw a punch. They both move towards each other and fire off their punches at the same time. One punch is more powerful while the other arrives a fraction of a second before the other. Both are so close in speed that they are going to connect and that neither fighter can avoid or block. In other words, both people are going to get hit with the full brunt of the blow. Which would you rather be, the one who threw the slightly faster punch or the more powerful punch? Both are going to get hit.

[NewLearner]

Watch the video links on the article. This was the reason i put pen to paper, not the original sine-wave or what many now term natural Motion to diffientiate from the new 'bobbing' version.


I watched the videos. I really can't see the bobbing in the videos because they are too small and the quality is not that good. Obviously, it was a tournament and that is expected since it wasn't set up to be a high quality video.

If that is the case, and there is NO drop between movements then you are doing it as the original masters did and as per diagram 1 in the article.

When I watch my instructor or the more senior students, they have a drop. It just isn't an exaggerated drop. When I took karate years ago, the instructor tried to get everyone to stay pretty much perfectly level as they went through. My current instructor tries to get us to go for a small drop.


I drew it free hand and my drawing is crap - it was simply to show the difference between the 2.

Sorry, I was talking about the sparring photos in a line that reference diagram 2.


Well you said the guy that was a black belt woudl hi first cos he was a black belt!! Hence what i replied.
Actually, I didn't say that. I said "Add in that the colored belt does an extremely exaggerated bobbing motion versus someone that you can't really tell if their feet have moved at all and you would expect the black belt to get the punch off first." The black belt comment was just to identify which person I was talking about in the photo.


Not if the shorter guy responds more quickly.. either way, its splitting hairs really as if they were totally equal, the outcome would be the same due to the way the *new* sinewave slows down the technique.

Well yes. If someone is faster or responds more quickly, that certainly helps. But the question is if all else was equal would the sine wave slow the person down that much? In the photos, there were several other problems that would have slowed the person down without sine wave being used at all.

There was no deliberate stacking of anything, thats simply how the photos came out.

I am not accusing you of doing anything wrong. I am merely pointing out some issues with the presentation. I am not even necessarily disagreeing with your assessment at this point. But to really discuss the issue, it helps to have a good understanding of what the demonstration is. Were these both your students? How did you determine which one to do the sine wave? Did the person have much experience using sine wave? I assume that you don't teach sine wave. Would that be wrong?

Well the way the *new* sinewave is performed its a litle more than a fraction of a second!

Perhaps my instructor is teaching it wrong. But it certainly doesn't take more than a fraction of a second to drop about an inch as you make impact.

With a dehabilitaking strike... the one that hits first wins.. its that simple. BTW - i have never seen anyone use sine-wave ina points stop comp - they too would get slaughtered points-wise because this is based on speed and accuracy as well - just the level of contact and contexts of the fight is different.

Likewise, I don't see too many people using sitting stances in sparring.

In theory.. but I say again, the wind up and execution is too slow to make its use effective even if it did expedentially increase force to that of a jumbo jet. Hip twist increase speed and power without sacrficing the speed element for the power element.

Stuart

Once again, maybe it is that you are seeing people do extremely exaggerated motions, but that is not what we are being taught by our instructor as sine wave. Perhaps he pretty much agrees with you and teaches a quite modified form of it. I don't know. But I have never seen anyone try to go on their tip toes as they move in for a punch like is in the third frame of that fight sequence.

[StuartA]

I watched the videos. I really can't see the bobbing in the videos because they are too small and the quality is not that good. Obviously, it was a tournament and that is expected since it wasn't set up to be a high quality video.
The videos show it well enough, check the Yul-Guk v Hwa-Rang one and you can see a marked speed difference. And the Hwa-Rang v Choong-Moo one shows the drop/rise/drop reasonibly clearly as they start to travel back on themselves.


When I watch my instructor or the more senior students, they have a drop. It just isn't an exaggerated drop. When I took karate years ago, the instructor tried to get everyone to stay pretty much perfectly level as they went through. My current instructor tries to get us to go for a small drop.
Drop before or drop after, originally in sine-wave there was no drop before

http://www.raynerslanetkd.com/sw_example.jpg

Original Sine wave motion -- no drop beforehand



Actually, I didn't say that. I said "Add in that the colored belt does an extremely exaggerated bobbing motion versus someone that you can't really tell if their feet have moved at all and you would expect the black belt to get the punch off first." The black belt comment was just to identify which person I was talking about in the photo. .
Sorry, just re-read it - I getcha now



Well yes. If someone is faster or responds more quickly, that certainly helps. But the question is if all else was equal would the sine wave slow the person down that much? In the photos, there were several other problems that would have slowed the person down without sine wave being used at all.
Photos or not, it still remains that all things being equal the orginal sine-wave or non-sine-wave would hit first


I am not accusing you of doing anything wrong.
Well you did say "Diagram 2, it seems, is custom designed to prove a point but fails to do because of how it is set up." - which it wasnt!

I am merely pointing out some issues with the presentation. I am not even necessarily disagreeing with your assessment at this point. But to really discuss the issue, it helps to have a good understanding of what the demonstration is.
Okay, but its kinda simple, two motions one up, then one down is faster than 3 motions one down, one up and one down again!!! The photos are simply there to help illustrate the text not seal it tight as the text does that pretty well by itself.

Were these both your students?
Yes

How did you determine which one to do the sine wave?
They chose

Did the person have much experience using sine wave?
Yes - enough

I assume that you don't teach sine wave. Would that be wrong?
yes, that would be wrong as I teach the *original* version and in its proper context


Perhaps my instructor is teaching it wrong.
Whom is your instructor and what org is he with (if any) - the reason i ask is that a lot or orgs dictate how it should be done!

But it certainly doesn't take more than a fraction of a second to drop about an inch as you make impact.
It does to drop/rise and drop again - which is what the article refered to and why i made the disctinction on my previous post when i refered to he original sine wave as now being called natural motion by some.


Once again, maybe it is that you are seeing people do extremely exaggerated motions, but that is not what we are being taught by our instructor as sine wave.
Well the people were directly under a major authority in TKD! Again, I think now the 'change' trend has died off, groups and instructors are exxagerating it less, but often it stll to much. many pioneers pre-sinewave (being named) dropped into their movements - this was natural and is really the basis or sine wave, anything more is unnatural and slow, no matter how much power it developes

Perhaps he pretty much agrees with you and teaches a quite modified form of it. I don't know.
Would be interesting to see/find out

But I have never seen anyone try to go on their tip toes as they move in for a punch like is in the third frame of that fight sequence.
I think he was trying to show the reaction to getting hit whilst rising up to drop again - perhaps he tried a bit too hard LOL - though people do actually exaggerate that much in their patterns as well. Again though, you a looking at the photos to much when its the text you should be disgreeing with!

Stuart

[NewLearner]

The pictures that you posted in this post is pretty much what we do.

I think he was trying to show the reaction to getting hit whilst rising up to drop again - perhaps he tried a bit too hard LOL - though people do actually exaggerate that much in their patterns as well. Again though, you a looking at the photos to much when its the text you should be disgreeing with!

I thought you wanted me to agree with the text! ;)

As I said, I am merely pointing out some issues with the presentation. I am not even necessarily disagreeing with your assessment at this point. It sounds like you teach your students to do pretty much what is in that old photo series you posted here. If so, that is pretty much what we are taught. Hence where I think the presentation is where you need a slight refinement.

[MaverickZ]

Perhaps you could try to answer the question. Let me rephrase the question in case you didn't understand it.

Two fighters are both going to throw a punch. They both move towards each other and fire off their punches at the same time. One punch is more powerful while the other arrives a fraction of a second before the other. Both are so close in speed that they are going to connect and that neither fighter can avoid or block. In other words, both people are going to get hit with the full brunt of the blow. Which would you rather be, the one who threw the slightly faster punch or the more powerful punch? Both are going to get hit.

your questions are not based in reality.

[odwyerrt]

Just to add my two cents, a pattern as defined by General Choi, is a representation of a technique for self defence. If you find that your technique is NOT applicable in self defence, than logically your technique is WRONG.

I myself disagree with the exaggeration of sine wave as it is represented by many instructors. Luckily I have an oldschool instructor who teaches us good tkd.

[StuartA]

The pictures that you posted in this post is pretty much what we do.
Then you are arguing on the wrong side of the fence! :woo: This was one reason I asked whom your instructor/org were as certain big orgs do it different ways so its pretty easy to identify which is which.

I thought you wanted me to agree with the text! ;)
I dont mind if people agree or disagree with it. If you had read it correctly you would have seen it refered to the over-exaggerated version of sine-wave as opposed to the original version though!!

As I said, I am merely pointing out some issues with the presentation. I am not even necessarily disagreeing with your assessment at this point. It sounds like you teach your students to do pretty much what is in that old photo series you posted here. If so, that is pretty much what we are taught. Hence where I think the presentation is where you need a slight refinement.
Like I said, the photos were to try to help illustrate the text, which is a sound opinion on how it was/is being performed and how it relates to patterns as a tool for self defence.

Stuart

[Lithanwif]

Ah the sine wave controversy.

I spent a lot of time on the other side of the fence until someone on this very forum gave me a nice simple answer I could live with. They said that it is used to fix your stance. makes you more solid on the ground as you have effectively grounded yourself by accelerating towards ground, and then striking.

And the more I looked at it, I found that I actually did do it even in MT. It's very subtle, but there is actually a slight SW to slam my weight into the ground and set me up for a good hard grounded strike. I also use hip twist, I am after all originally a Karate-ka.

So, I exagerrate it in Patterns, isnt that what patterns are for?

[MadMonk108]

agreed... we r told about sine wave from day 1... and when we see our teachers move it does looks like Tai chi TKD... i don't remember being breathless as i always did patterns with sine wave. more over we always were asked to feel/see our breathe during patterns, which also might hav helped in not ending up breathless...
-TkdWarrior-

Except Taiji physical concepts aren't similar to sine wave. They are more similar to hip twist, except they would involve rotating in axis around the entire spine, not just the hip.

[MadMonk108]

Me, EternalRage, and MaverickZ all posting in one thread here.

It brings a tear to my eye.

Now we just need to get Mav to join Warrior-Scholar.

[EternalRage]

Me, EternalRage, and MaverickZ all posting in one thread here.

It brings a tear to my eye.

Now we just need to get Mav to join Warrior-Scholar.

Yeah we do. It's gotten kinda quiet over there.

[EternalRage]

I think what people are forgetting is that when you punch someone, it isn't a case of you having to punch in a straight line like if you were push a bullet through a gun barrel. Instead, you are trying to make contact with the most amount of force possible. It doesn't matter if you have a slight downward motion in the punch because there is nothing that you have to line up with. You are effectively making your own hole in the target, figuratively of course.

Even if you aren't punching in a straight line, your sine wave makes the added force from the redistribution of mass move in a straight line - straight into the ground. The only merit I would see in this is what Lithanwif stated - the dropping of the mass lowers the center of gravity so that it feels more stable when you hit, but added power/force? I don't think so. A punch has definitely more horizontal movement than vertical so it makes more sense to add rotational acceleration rather than gravitational.

Have you ever played tennis? Generally in tennis, unless you are smacking a lob high into the air, the trajectory you want to put on a tennis ball is more horizontal than vertical. The French Open is on this week, watch the pros, you won't see a single sine wave. But you will see alot of hip torque.

I think the only time I've ever used a sine wave like motion intentionally to gain power is in the ground and pound.

[StuartA]

So, I exagerrate it in Patterns, isnt that what patterns are for?

In short.. no!

Your reasoning on sine-wave is not bad, and one Ive not heard before, though it doesnt actually make a difference to the original posts that were anti the *new* sine wave.


Stuart

[StuartA]

I think the only time I've ever used a sine wave like motion intentionally to gain power is in the ground and pound.
I use to use it a lot when I break danced.. oooh the snake :)

Seriously though, with regards to the Tai-Chi point, there was a story I heard in a certain Korean circle that Gen Choi was hanging (!) with a Tai chi instructor around the same time the sine-wave was pushed more forcefully and change to the new type (down/up/down). I cant confirm anything as thats all I heard and cant really comment on the Tai Chi similarities as I dont know that much in-depth about thow they move, though Madmonk I think has stated its different!


Stuart

[MadMonk108]

Yeah we do. It's gotten kinda quiet over there.


Together, we shall conquer the Korean Karate world.

Dude, we get one more person, and we could call ourselves the Four Horsemen.

I call dibs on Death though.

[MadMonk108]

Stuart,

Well, the TKD system I train in is Moodukkwan based. Remember that Hwang Kee did reputedly receive training in Taiji.

I've also cross-trained a bit in Taiji, though informally. Up and down motion was not taught at all, as it would go against the principle of rooting. What was taught was rotation of the whole body around the spine.

This was in-line with what my MDK instructor taught.

[StuartA]

Well, i have to admit, of the Tai Chi Ive seen, ive not seen anything similar to the sine-wave. Though Ive heard it from the source I mentioned and some have commented elseware on the similarities.

You`d know better than I if you`ve trained in it or if its part of your system.

As an aside, whats the differences between Moo Duk Kwan and Oh do kwan tkd? (I know little of Moo Duk Kwan)

Stuart

[MaverickZ]

Together, we shall conquer the Korean Karate world.

Dude, we get one more person, and we could call ourselves the Four Horsemen.

I call dibs on Death though.

i'm not really sure this website is equipped to contain the awesomeness that is the TKD messiah

[Alexander]

Together, we shall conquer the Korean Karate world.

Dude, we get one more person, and we could call ourselves the Four Horsemen.

I call dibs on Death though.
If I can be War, then I'm in.

[Taliar]

The thing I don't get about sine wave is, if you are dropping down in order to add power, why do you need to go down again as you begin the next move. This gives a sequence of down up down | down up down | down up down. Surely it would be quicker and easier to just go | up down | up down |.

Anyway I think that out of the 2 hip twist adds more power and is definately quicker to use.

[Devildog2930]

First of all I appologise for bringing up an old thread but recently during my training this has been bothering me. I used to train under ther UKTF who use sine wave without the hip twist but now I train with the TAGB who use hip twist without the prominent up down movement of sine wave. Under UKTF instruction we were told that sine wave would increase the power of our techniques, however since joining the TAGB I have found that hip twist has increased my power signifincantly. I had pretty much accepted the explanation that the extra mass caused by sine wave should make my technique more powerfull but in practice this wasn't the case. I then studied the way I used the hip twisting motion to try to find an explanation, only to find that when using hip twist one hip drops slightly whilst the other raises thus when moving causes a less exagerated sine wave. I then trained with a boxer friend of mine and found that he also used his hips in this way to generate power only increasing the tourque by pivoting on his feet rather than using the fixed stance style used in Taekwondo. I also found that the same hip twisting movement when applied to my Judo practice added extra power to my throwing techniques.

[aaron_mag]

First of all I appologise for bringing up an old thread but recently during my training this has been bothering me. I used to train under ther UKTF who use sine wave without the hip twist but now I train with the TAGB who use hip twist without the prominent up down movement of sine wave. Under UKTF instruction we were told that sine wave would increase the power of our techniques, however since joining the TAGB I have found that hip twist has increased my power signifincantly. I had pretty much accepted the explanation that the extra mass caused by sine wave should make my technique more powerfull but in practice this wasn't the case. I then studied the way I used the hip twisting motion to try to find an explanation, only to find that when using hip twist one hip drops slightly whilst the other raises thus when moving causes a less exagerated sine wave. I then trained with a boxer friend of mine and found that he also used his hips in this way to generate power only increasing the tourque by pivoting on his feet rather than using the fixed stance style used in Taekwondo. I also found that the same hip twisting movement when applied to my Judo practice added extra power to my throwing techniques.

We were never taught the sine wave, but use the hip twist as you mentioned. In fact I don't know when the sine wave came into being and I haven't gotten to that discussion in Stuart's book yet (a book I'm enjoying btw.)

But I know that the twisting of the hips (look where you are throwing the person) is used in Judo/Sambo and in boxing. I've never seen the Sine wave idea used in anything else and certainly not in sparring.

[Mitch]

The answer's, "Your hips."

Now what's the question? :)

I think you're spot on Devildog, hip twist also allies itself naturally with a more natural motion drop of bodyweight, which is not sinewave as performed by some. See StuartA's piece on this on his website and in his book.

I don't think hip twist is necessarily performed in a fixed stance however; stance, breathing and technique should all finish at once in most instances, so the hip twist is starting before the stance is completed, rather than fixing the stance then throwing the hip twist. Just my two pen'orth.

Mitch

[TKDTraditional]

I just had a thought. If sinewave increases power, how often do you see sinewave-comaptible techniques used to break during testing?

For example, I'm only now learning sinewave so in my last 3 dan tests, when I had to break 2 boards with a hand technique, I used a reverse punch (left foot forward in a walking stance, right hand punching) which relies on hip power. I did not step into the break. If I had been learning sinewave, would I have used a regular straight punch, stepping into the technique so I could get down-up-down? Have you ever seen anyone in a sinewave school step into their breaking technique? Knifehand? Reverse knifehand? Anything? I'm excluding kicks because sinewave during kicking is subtle if even present.

I just observed ITF Black Belt testing this weekend. With a couple exceptions, the only hand breaks were tiles using a downward punch or knifehand. Do you need sinewave to punch straight down? Can you?

So now I challenge you, if you practice sinewave. Are there any hand techniques that you'd be willing to stand back and step into a power break in order to perform a sinewave? Are you afraid of the power you'd generate or are you afraid you'll hurt your hand?

Any videos?? :rolleyes:

[Vimtoforblood]

I think you can use sine wave without having to step into the technique.

(Mitch: I was thinking of getting Stuart A's book - would you recommend it from a TAGB practitioners' perspective?)

[TKDTraditional]

Ah, yes. Good. Ever seen it used in breaking?

[aaron_mag]

I think you can use sine wave without having to step into the technique.

(Mitch: I was thinking of getting Stuart A's book - would you recommend it from a TAGB practitioners' perspective?)

I'd recommend it to any ITF (or any derivative) stylist. The reason is because it promotes thought.

I don't prescribe to everything Stuart presents in the book, but it is interesting to read his take on things. I also like some of his explanations for things...for example the traditional low block actually being a shoulder throw. In Sambo we actually practice doing the hip throw from a grip very much like the traditional low block. So I can certainly see it. Another is the W block actually being a fireman's carry.

But I also think that if these things are true then the forms would have to be radically altered and would barely resemble their current form after revision. I still present hyungs as 'active meditation and exercise' to the student, but I also have added Stuart's perspective to things to let the student mull over.

So now I challenge you, if you practice sinewave. Are there any hand techniques that you'd be willing to stand back and step into a power break in order to perform a sinewave? Are you afraid of the power you'd generate or are you afraid you'll hurt your hand?

Any videos??

Actually watch Stuart's testing video. There is a guy who uses the 'sine wave' (very mild application of it) in a hand break.

Incidently we have to break four to five pine boards with our hands for testing...so I know that plenty of power can be generated from the hips to break without sine wave. Punch and palm-heel is used quite frequently to break. But with so many boards many people who are lighter use the elbow strike...

[Mitch]

(Mitch: I was thinking of getting Stuart A's book - would you recommend it from a TAGB practitioners' perspective?)

Oh yes. :) Keep your eye on the TAGB thread for more hopefully coming soon ;) :)

Did you get my email StuartA?

Mitch

[Mitch]

Two separtae argument here, I'll just do one for now, the second deserves another thread.Actually watch Stuart's testing video. There is a guy who uses the 'sine wave' (very mild application of it) in a hand break.

Incidently we have to break four to five pine boards with our hands for testing...so I know that plenty of power can be generated from the hips to break without sine wave. Punch and palm-heel is used quite frequently to break. But with so many boards many people who are lighter use the elbow strike...

I don't want to speak for StuartA, but I think he would agree based on his article, and certainly from my experience, that the natural body drop that was originally termed sine wave is a great technique. It promotes rooting your stance to gain power whilst still projecting in the direction of the technique. Few people in TKD argue against this interpretation.

But something changed in the ITF in the mid-late 80's (plase correct me if my dating is out). For reasons that may be realistic (sine wave makes more power) or may be political/nationalistic (we have to make TKD different form all those other [Japanese based] arts) or may have any other number of foundations, sine wave became emphasised to the exclusion of hip twist.

Personally, I have never seen a convincing explanation of Sine Wave in its later meaning, nor a convincing demonstration of its superiority when applied without hip twist.

I may be misunderstanding the issue and am happy to debate or be corrected, but in my experience hip snap with natural motion body drop works (although it lacks a catchy title, but hey, let's everbody do the Mitch Wave! :cool: :D ) and sine wave on its own does not and I cannot see how it could.

Mitch

[StuartA]

....in Stuart's book yet (a book I'm enjoying btw.)
Cool - thank you Aaron.

I'd recommend it to any ITF (or any derivative) stylist. The reason is because it promotes thought.
And thanks again :)

Actually watch Stuart's testing video. There is a guy who uses the 'sine wave' (very mild application of it) in a hand break.
You mean the short, stocky guy with the blond hair right? Hes not one of mine :rolleyes:

Stuart

[StuartA]

Did you get my email StuartA?

Mitch

I think so! I replied to it!

Stuart

[StuartA]

Two separtae argument here, I'll just do one for now, the second deserves another thread.

I don't want to speak for StuartA, but I think he would agree based on his article, and certainly from my experience, that the natural body drop that was originally termed sine wave is a great technique. It promotes rooting your stance to gain power whilst still projecting in the direction of the technique. Few people in TKD argue against this interpretation.
Yup, FWIW I agree 100% the old sine-wave (meaning original) was simply a dropping into stances to gain power/root techniques etc etc.

But something changed in the ITF in the mid-late 80's (plase correct me if my dating is out).
Mid/late 90's - reason - IMO political.. in others, erm, to add power!

Personally, I have never seen a convincing explanation of Sine Wave in its later meaning, nor a convincing demonstration of its superiority when applied without hip twist.
Neither have I!

I may be misunderstanding the issue and am happy to debate or be corrected, but in my experience hip snap with natural motion body drop works (although it lacks a catchy title, but hey, let's everbody do the Mitch Wave! :cool: :D )
LOL - the Mitch Wave! :)

Stuart

[aaron_mag]

You mean the short, stocky guy with the blond hair right? Hes not one of mine :rolleyes:



Well he is on YOUR video so in the internet sense you own him now!!!

:)

Do you belong to a greater organization and hold tests together?

Also I was curious...in your book one of the guys in the introduction mentions that TKD stylists sought to dishonor other martial art styles and ended up dishonoring TKD instead. What is he referring to? When did TKD try to dishonor other martial arts?

I'm not asking because I'm disagreeing btw, but more out of curiosity.

[Rob T.]

I think you can use sine wave without having to step into the technique.

(Mitch: I was thinking of getting Stuart A's book - would you recommend it from a TAGB practitioners' perspective?)

You can also use Hip Twist/Snap without stepping into a technique.

I also have Stuarts book, and having spoken to him over the last few years on various other forums, would say that its probably better for TAGB members than for ITFers (but he may not agree! :) ).

Rob

[Vimtoforblood]

You can also use Hip Twist/Snap without stepping into a technique.

I also have Stuarts book, and having spoken to him over the last few years on various other forums, would say that its probably better for TAGB members than for ITFers (but he may not agree! :) ).

Rob

Yeah, I suppose a good (basic) example of this would be when doing punches in sitting stance? Although the feet are fixed, there is still hip twist and a vertical movement.

In that case I think I will look into ordering it.

[taekwonguy]

i use sine wave and hip twist , both are great, tho a sine wave slows down the action for a fraction of a second!

[Vimtoforblood]

I suppose it makes sense that it would since the range of motion is greater - travelling more in an arc rather than a straight line.

Can anyone se any advantages of carrying out moves without ANY vertical motion i.e. as if carrying out the moves with a fixed ceiling just above your head - so you can't raise to drop down?

The reason I ask is that I used to do a style of Kung Fu - and this is the way the forms were carried out from what I can remember.

[StuartA]

Well he is on YOUR video so in the internet sense you own him now!!! :)
Dam! - but yes, he does do the breaking, with sine wave whilst moving - as you pointed out!

Do you belong to a greater organization and hold tests together?
One of my examiners runs his own schools and we do the dan grade tests togethor, thats all!

Also I was curious...in your book one of the guys in the introduction mentions that TKD stylists sought to dishonor other martial art styles and ended up dishonoring TKD instead. What is he referring to? When did TKD try to dishonor other martial arts?
He is refering to the 'bigging up' of TKD by the 'putting down' of other arts by TKD instructors. He feels these action are dishonourable - for whatever reason (even if try to proliferate TKD)

Stuart

[StuartA]

I also have Stuarts book, and having spoken to him over the last few years on various other forums, would say that its probably better for TAGB members than for ITFers (but he may not agree! :) ).

Rob

I surely dont agree!! :woo: But do wonder why you think that?


Stuart

[Rob T.]

I surely dont agree!! :woo: But do wonder why you think that?


Stuart

Didn't think you would! (Although I'm sure you'd be happy for as many TAGB members to buy your book as possible :D ).

A quick example - 'low block' used as a body drop takedown (tai otoshi in Japanese, sorry my Korean lacks in this area). The movement is much more similar when using hip twist and natural knee-spring / body drop, than the ITF Sine-wave IMHO.

Don’t get me wrong, I recommend your book to all TKDist (particularly those who perform the Chang hon patterns obviously) but feel that the alternative applications you and others (Master Willie Lim, Iain Abernethy,etc) describe 'fit' better with the pre-sine wave TAGB style).

I’d be interested to hear your thoughts!

Rob

[StuartA]

Didn't think you would! (Although I'm sure you'd be happy for as many TAGB members to buy your book as possible :D ).
TAGB, ITF, former ITF.. a mountain starts with a few pebbles after all!

A quick example - 'low block' used as a body drop takedown (tai otoshi in Japanese, sorry my Korean lacks in this area). The movement is much more similar when using hip twist and natural knee-spring / body drop, than the ITF Sine-wave IMHO.
I agree (and figured thats what youd be saying), the institution of the new type sine wave has majorly hampered applications, as you know, its a subject I cover in the book and I guess for many technques that need twisting, you may have to go against the grain of what is taught today - a little! Still, it depends on whats important to the student! If ITF perform most things with no twisting at all (ie. the low block no longer chambers at the side) then IMO they are limiting themselves quite a lot.. and once the competitions are done with, they will be left wondering why so many techniques that do the same/similar thing!

Don’t get me wrong, I recommend your book to all TKDist (particularly those who perform the Chang hon patterns obviously) but feel that the alternative applications you and others (Master Willie Lim, Iain Abernethy,etc) describe 'fit' better with the pre-sine wave TAGB style).
Or the pre-new-sine wave ITF/Ch'ang Hon style!! :)

Cheers,

Stuart

[BlindvSide]

ok, what's the difference between a hip twist and a sine wave? Really, I've taken courses in statics and dynamics and I have a fairly thorough knowledge of how you generate more or less power depending on what you're trying to do i.e. inflict damage, prevent injury during training. So far however I find ppl swearing by one tech or another. Is the "sine wave" a method for the start up or recovery of a kick or is it a method for your body movement during a kick, which i have to add is inevitably UP for any kick except a sweep as your body moves up to push up your leg.

[Dillon]

The exaggerated "sine wave" that people are talking about is a pronounced down-up-down motion durning strikes and blocks, particularly in the patterns. Flex the knees, raise up as you move, and drop with the strike. It's an overexaggeration of a natural spring of the legs during a technique in my opinion, and I suspect that this is what Mr. Anslow is doing; not the exaggeration.

Hip twist is the generation of power by a rotation or snap of the hips during the technique. For example, if you were in a left leg forward walking stance throwing a right reverse punch, viewed from above your hips (and most of the rest of you) would snap counter-clockwise to generate the power for your punch.