Difference between Silat, Kali, Arnis, Eskrima??

[balut]

Hi everyone,
Browsing this board has piqued my interest in Silat and the others mentioned in the subject. My first question is what are the differences?? They all often seem to be mentioned together. Is Silat the parent while Kali, Arnis, and Eskrima could be considered children or cousins? Also, does anyone know of schools or teachers near the Seattle area for any of these styles? Or any video downloads or documents concerning these styles? I'd really love to see what they actually look like in full motion. Thanks in advance for the knowledge!

[krys]

Arnis, escrima, kalis are different names for a familly of filipino martial art. In Arnis you start learning weapon fighting before training empty hands.
the idea behind is that armed combat is more important/difficult to master, and the weapon principles-skills will easily transfer to empty hands.


Silat is found through whole south east asia (yes even Thailand, Cambodia and Laos).
In silat you are taught unarmed combat first weapons after a few years..... but there are exceptions to the rule. In silat weapons are seen as extensions of the hands...

Some filipino muslims think that Arnis, Escrima and Kalis are children of Silat but this view is not shared by all filipinos..... :)

[pesilat]

Here's a school near Seattle (in Renton) that teaches Eskrima and Silat - as well Wing Chun and Chin Na.

http://www.martialdirect.com/directory/usa/washington/edmondsmaa.php

I don't know the instructor, Bobbe Edmonds, in person but I've read some of his posts online and he seems to know his stuff.

Mike

[ICT]

Originally posted by balut
My first question is what are the differences?? They all often seem to be mentioned together. Is Silat the parent while Kali, Arnis, and Eskrima could be considered children or cousins

Balut,

First off Kali is a Silat style! The word Kali is not Filipino but Indonesian. It's the Bahasia language for river. Your suppose to think of the stick as a river continuously flowing no matter what. Throw a boulder in a river and the water will go under, over, through or around it but it will continue to flow. Hence, what your suppose to do in Kali is always flow like water & never stop.

The Southern Filipino islands like Mindanao were the same people as Indonesia before some European drew an imaginary line across it and proclaimed it's Filipino statehood.

Arnis & Eskrima are Spanish words. They're Northern Filipino stick fighting mixed with European sword fighting.

Read about any famous Northern Filipino Arnis or Eskrima stick fighters and you will find that they traveled to the Southern Filipinos to study Kali with the legendary tribes and masters.

The biggest differences between Kali and Arnis & Eskrima are:

1) Kali uses mostly Filipino & Indonesian words and Arnis & Eskrima uses mostly Spanish & Filipino words.

2) Kali has stick fighting and empty hand fighting aspects. Arnis & Eskrima are stick fighting with empty hand disarms.

3) Kalis empty hand fighting is Silat. Arnis & Eskrimas empty hand disarms can be Karate, Aikido or whatever else they've adopted.

Now with all that said, there have been a lot of mixing in the last 30 years or so especially with the Northern styles so it is possible to see Silat in a particular Arnis or Eskrima style. Also the Arnis & Eskrima styles have added other Indigenous Filipino arts like Dumog (wrestling) & Sikaran (foot fighting/kicking) into them. As well there are now styles called Arnis & Eskrima that are in fact a Kali style.

It can be very confusing I know but now you have a better understanding of them.

Sincerely,
Teacher: Eddie Ivester

[pesilat]

Good post, ICT. But in all fairness, it should also be pointed out that what you posted is just one opinion. There are others. To my knowledge, no one has ever been able to come up with conclusive proof of any of the many theories of the origins of these arts.

Years could (and have) been spent trying to sort out all the details and still not come up with an answer that everyone would agree with.

To paraphrase how one guy put it on another discussion group I'm on:

A group of lions = a pride
A group of geese = a gaggle
A group of crows = a murder
A group of pesilat [or, I'd say, martial artists in general] = a quarrel


And, as my old Goju-Ryu instructor said:
"What is Karate?"
"Fact of the matter is, for good or bad, as my students, you're going to believe that Karate is whatever I tell you it is. So as a teacher, it's my responsibility to make sure I give you good and accurate information."

Unfortunately, not all instructors are so careful with the information they give out. And, after a couple of generations of oral tradition, it becomes virtually impossible to sort fact from fiction from misunderstanding.

Mike

[SteveJKDUK]

From what I've read, there are numerous theories on the origins of the word, "Kali." Some have even argued that it is used as a marketing ploy by some of the US instructors. I think both Silat and the FMAs share many similarities.

[krys]

First of all my intention is not to sound offensive but my views are a little different on this topic.

The Southern Filipino islands like Mindanao were the same people as Indonesia before some European drew an imaginary line across it and proclaimed it's Filipino statehood.


The American government brought the muslim territories into what is now the Philippines...... They were independant areas before..... Actually there were already some muslim settlers in Luzon and the Visayas (ex. Rajah Sulaiman camp in what is now called Intramuros). Different waves of immigration came to the Philippines some from Borneo other from Indonesia.....


Arnis & Eskrima are Spanish words. They're Northern Filipino stick fighting mixed with European sword fighting.



Arnis, Escrima and Kalis are different words for what we understand by filipino weapon arts..... they do not correspond to different martial arts....
Arnis-Escrima-Kalis are words like Kung Fu to designate local martial arts and not different systems....

The spanish word Arnis is understood in the whole archipelago, escrima mostly in cebu and some southern islands....

Nearly nobody in the Philippines uses the word Kalis.....

The muslim "escrima-arnis-kalis" art I know wasn't called kalis, escrima or arnis before.
Just "to use the bolo" in the Yakan dialect, in recent times my (silat) grandmaster started to use the words escrima, arnis to talk about it in front of christian filipinos..... but it means the same art.It is very different (by it's footwork) from any other christian system.... but it never was called Kali.

If muslim filipinos practiced an art called Kali christian filipinos could hardly have learned it from them given the bad relations between both groups....


Read about any famous Northern Filipino Arnis or Eskrima stick fighters and you will find that they traveled to the Southern Filipinos to study Kali with the legendary tribes and masters.


There are lots of stories about this..... and most of them are doubtfull....

Filipinos are sometimes very mischievous :)
I know one famous player of the Illustrissimo group who once told to some journalists that there are mountain arnis styles, rice fields arnis styles and city arnis styles.... the mountain styles would be long range oriented, the rice field medium range, and the city styles short range oriented.....
it became published afterwards,
there are so many false stories on fmas....

Arnis-Escrima.... are arts meant to kill peoples..... you don't teach this to your enemies. For centuries local muslims raided Luzon the Visayas and Mindanao (as well as Indonesia, Malaysia...) in retaliation for spanish expeditions and also for their economy based on slave labor... both groups were ennemies for centuries and this more or less goes on today.


Muslim filipinos and lumads would never teach their arts to outsiders, not even to muslims-lumads of other clan, even less to christian who are already masters and could be threats to their clans...
I had(ve) a hard time learning it and am not allowed to teach it outside the familly.



The biggest differences between Kali and Arnis & Eskrima are:

1) Kali uses mostly Filipino & Indonesian words and Arnis & Eskrima uses mostly Spanish & Filipino words.

2) Kali has stick fighting and empty hand fighting aspects. Arnis & Eskrima are stick fighting with empty hand disarms.

3) Kalis empty hand fighting is Silat. Arnis & Eskrimas empty hand disarms can be Karate, Aikido or whatever else they've adopted.



1) I know personally players of the Illustrissimo kalis group.... they use many spanish words...

In my basilan "escrima" we use Yakan words...

2) Kalis Illustrissimo is a blade art.... it has also empty hands and disarms.....
Muslim "escrima" systems are mostly blade arts, sticks are seldom used,they have empty hands and disarms.

3) Kalis Illustrissimo empty hands are very different from traditional silat... no jurus, no seni, different ways of moving, different positions, no illmu pratcices; there aren't infinite numbers of ways to hit an opponent but to my and their eyes it isn't silat....

Fmas empty hands are often called combat judo.... karate means any striking art in the Philippines, it can mean sikaran, kung fu, ,silat ,kuntao...


Now with all that said, there have been a lot of mixing in the last 30 years or so especially with the Northern styles so it is possible to see Silat in a particular Arnis or Eskrima style.


This is unlikely, if there is silat influence in some arnis styles it is probably indonesian silat...... filipino muslim guros are very secretive;) ....

Also the Arnis & Eskrima styles have added other Indigenous Filipino arts like Dumog (wrestling) & Sikaran (foot fighting/kicking) into them.


Not all, I also study Cinco Terros Arnis and there are no empty hands in this system.....
Dumog until recently promoted by some modern systems had a quite bad reputation among filipinos and wasn't really associated to Arnis.


With all respect.,

Christian.

[RubyMoon]

Where does Serrada fall into the mix? I have studied some techniques from this style but otherwise know very little about it. I do know the techniques I learned were intended for a blade rather than a stick (but could work with either). I read somewhere that Serrada is a form of Escrima. Would I be way off track to guess that Serrada is simply a blade-oriented style of escrima?

[ICT]

krys,

I respect your opinion on the subject and My knowledge of the Filipino arts come from Filipino Guro's here in the US who came over here in the 50's & 60's from many different regions of the Filipines as well as I read many books written on the subject.

Viewing these different Guro's perform their art and talking with them and reading books is how I have come to the conclusions that I have. So, here are some more of my thoughts.


The American government brought the muslim territories into what is now the Philippines...... They were independant areas before..... Actually there were already some muslim settlers in Luzon and the Visayas (ex. Rajah Sulaiman camp in what is now called Intramuros). Different waves of immigration came to the Philippines some from Borneo other from Indonesia.....

Depends on how far back in time you go whether it was immigration or migration and how related the peoples were? The two are so near each other that they have common ancestry. Also don't forget about the Majapahit empire that covered most of SEA; Southern Thailand, Malaysia, Indonesia, Singapore & Southern Filipines which would of influenced their fighting arts as well.


Nearly nobody in the Philippines uses the word Kalis..

Only the Southern Filipines because it's an Indonesian word and would make sense since they are so close to Indonesia. The Island of Borneo's native name is Kalimantan (Kali).

If muslim filipinos practiced an art called Kali christian filipinos could hardly have learned it from them given the bad relations between both groups....

This line of thinking is always used all over the world as a safeguard but it's just not historically accurate. Love defies all! American President Thomas Jefferson had an African/American girlfriend during slavery when it was against the law to consort with them in such a manner! He tried to keep it low profile but many, many people new what was going on.


There are lots of stories about this..... and most of them are doubtfull....

Not when they themselves say it's true and give an account of the event. I would have to believe it.


2) Kalis Illustrissimo is a blade art.... it has also empty hands and disarms.....

All the Kali arts I've seen are blade arts. They may practice with sticks but the whole time they're telling you knife/sword and then you progress to practicing with the blade.


Kalis Illustrissimo empty hands are very different from traditional silat... no jurus, no seni, different ways of moving, different positions, no illmu pratcices;

Well that is just one Kali style and who said it had to be traditional Silat, I don't teach traditional Silat.


there aren't infinite numbers of ways to hit an opponent but to my and their eyes it isn't silat

That's one groups opinion and you already stated how secretive Filipino Guro's can be.


Fmas empty hands are often called combat judo.... karate means any striking art in the Philippines, it can mean sikaran, kung fu, ,silat ,kuntao...

Yes but not when the call it by name like: Shotokan, Aikido, Hapkido and etc..


This is unlikely, if there is silat influence in some arnis styles it is probably indonesian silat...... filipino muslim guros are very secretive

How ever it got there or who it came from doesn't matter and again with the "They would never teach it" stuff just doesn't make it fact.


It's just my opinion based on evidence that I have gathered.


Sincerely,
Teacher: Eddie Ivester

[krys]

Interesting post ICT, yes love defies all but I would like to give a last thought on the secrecy of mulim guros.


This is an from an interview with my Grandmaster Hadji Y. Tanandjalan taken from the Rapid Journal.
H. Yasser is an authority on filipino silat, the sultan of Sulu ask him to perform from time to time and he was choosen by him to organize sport silat in the Philippines....

Interview with the master: The Passion from the Crescent Moon.

Q: How do you differentiate the various silat styles? Is it based on territory or something else?

H.Y.:
Some originate as familly or clan practices and some because of territorial influences. In Mindanao, if your parents do not know anything about the art, then you don't even bother to look for the art. No one will just teach it to you because this art is usually hidden. Mindanao's practices are quite different as against how the silat forms are more openly practiced in Indonesia, Malaysia, or in Manila.

Mindanao has lots of warriors. This warrior spirit in our area has been there even before the arrival of the Spaniards. This is the reason why Mindanao was never fully conquered by the Spaniards, the Americans and the Japanese. We don't want foreigners
in our area and this is why the culture of Mindanao is still well-preserved up to this day.

....... In traditional silat my ancestors were very strict with what they taught. This is why I choose my students very carefully before giving them the inner teaching of the art.




During my trips to Mindanao I never heard of Kali but peoples usually understood Arnis.....Many of the muslims I met there told me they heard of silat (but of course didn't practice it;) )....When I asked what they practiced they were evasive and usually said nothing or a little Karate or Tae Kwon Do in their youth....
I posted another article by Mark Wiley on arts practiced by the Matigsalogs (a pagan tribe of Mindanao) in the fma forum, they also don't teach their arts to outsiders:


M. Wiley: When I asked one of the warriors to explain to me his fighting art in
detail, the request was denied. They truly believe that the person they
tell such things to could one day rebel against them. And without such
"secret" fighting techniques with which to defend themselves, the
Matigsalog would surely cease to exist.


With all respect.

[stump]

Tough it may not be factually accurate it's probably best to think of Arnis, Escrima and Kali as practically different words for the same thing.

The arts can differ more depending on the school than on the name per se.

The similarities far outweigh the differences

[sercuerdasfight]

serrada escrima is a blade art. those who know the system know how the stick used to practice is the blade. angel cabales learned his skill from dizon who would only fight in bladed challenge matches. serrada is trained and practiced with a stick at the early stages, but it is a blade art and cabales was a blade man. angel also hand increditabe empty hand skills which are noted by those who knew him.

[butterfly_knf]

This is just an addition, based on my thought.

I would hate to say this, but it's true...

If I, was born in the same time where Asian Martial Arts were practiced in my warring country, I'd think more than 100 times to teach it to outsider or not.

This is the truth our Asian's personality.
We do not trust others than our clan.

Why?
We were hardly trying to survive. There's no one to trust besides our own inside community, and that's the very truth.
Besides, the progression of the Art will demand stages of irrationality- you can ask every MA-st that truly came from Asia... "Is there a Martial Art (in/from Asia)- that had nothing to do with 'secrecy'?"

Hardly, the answer is no.
You may hate our ancestors for keeping such secret in providing their own advantages. But for a society living in tribes and cultures- the best way to life your life is to tie yourself to your family traditions.

It is no more of a history. It is a fact.
Europeans are a winner for their diligent thought in creating ideas and innovations.
The modern world, their rational mind, their logical aspects.

While in Asia, every daily activities (in some place still, until now) made-to-no transgression to our old habit. And the 'speak of nature', the philosophy, is our winning prize.

Of course, this is nor good or bad (the reason for valuing such is too complicated).
There are men who made a huge progress in teaching the Art. As of, Bruce lee who neglect the differentiation of races.

Called it primitive, yes, it is ancient.
But we could not afford it to cease to exist.
As long as the mankind living on the other side is (and will) greatly profound to this logical reality. So do we need to maintain our solitary days. Because a world without these 'two pole'- is a world without a manners of appropriateness and concerns.

-------------------

Ok. That's at least what I can tell you of the 'Asian bad habit' - or whatever you named it.
Are we such arrogant? Well, perhaps... (to be honest- this 'introverted mores of secrecy' is slowly being reduced by the young generations, and so do I)

Anyhow, I can't argue with it- cos' it already happened. And I can't say whether it's fully right or wrong... It is probably something that is outside our reach, it happens by nature...

I live by that, so I don't think I have any right to really-- prejudice-- this is something that came from my own mind, since I live in that culture, and with high regards- I choose not to live my whole life full of it.


...of course, the more we life, human thoughts are changing, they are not so skeptic as before, but these changes do needed time. And sadly, there are many things, events in the human life that is not recordable in our main history.

Those, remain secrets.

And one thing, these traditions remain so strong that even until now--

"You may need more than a thousand men to move the mind of one person" and so the reverse...

[krys]

Things are not linear in Asia and it is not easy for westerners to understand asian mentallity....
Actually it took me many years to find a real guro.... and I really had to change...

My english isn't that good but the following resumes the situation:
When you have a guest in your house, you give him the white rice that's on the top of the pot.... you don't give him the brown rice from the bottom. The brown rice you can't give and keep for yourself...

[Bobster]

This discussion is rockin'. I think all of you are sharing excellent points of view, with a total lack of agressive ego. Really makes me glad I joined. Pesilat, thank you for your kind words! As another follower of the DeThouars Bros, as well as GM Cacoy, maybe we'll meet someday!

My personal opinion is identical to ICT's. I heard the same story out of Pak Victor's mouth last month in his house, and have devoted much research to the subject long before that. However, the other theories hold as much water as any one else's, seeing as how we really have no concrete evidence about ANYTHING from the times before P.I. & Indonesia were occupied (Spanish & Dutch).

Having said that, I just want to point out that it is damn near impossible for most asians to give exact timeline & occurances in thier histories without inconsistancies, due to so many violent regime changes. This is true in China, P.I., Laos, etc. So, for a westerner to give it a shot, although admirable, is realistically a futile persuit. At least, if your only intent is to give whatever art you are training in credibility. Kali & Silat are friggin' brutal, and you would be hard-pressed to find an art more flow-oriented. You really don't need to justify it with "...And to top it off, this art is 500 years old!" They really stand on thier own in the modern world.

Lastly, KRYS: I actually LIKE the brown rice at the bottom of the pot!

Just my Dos Centavos...

Bobbe Edmonds

[pesilat]

Originally posted by Bobster
This discussion is rockin'. I think all of you are sharing excellent points of view, with a total lack of agressive ego. Really makes me glad I joined. Pesilat, thank you for your kind words! As another follower of the DeThouars Bros, as well as GM Cacoy, maybe we'll meet someday!

Good to see you here. I've seen you around on other discussion groups (primarily, Eskrima Digest, I think).

I hope we do meet someday and, based on what I've read in your posts, I look forward to it.

Mike

[moe389]

Has anyone any info one this form of silat. Im almost positive my spelling is incorrect and it may not be a form of silat . Years ago I saw some stuff and heard some things that I would like to be educated on.


thanx for any info

[pesilat]

Has anyone any info one this form of silat. Im almost positive my spelling is incorrect and it may not be a form of silat . Years ago I saw some stuff and heard some things that I would like to be educated on.


thanx for any info

Harimau literally translates as "tiger." It's a Sumatran system of Silat that involves a lot of groundfighting. Not so much based on the movements of a tiger (though there is that aspect to it) but more on the attitude/mindset of a tiger.

The ground is my weakest area but if I end up there, I'm probably going to be doing Harimau. There's a clip of me teaching a little of it on my website at http://impactacademy.com/videos

Mike

[Crucible]

Hi everyone,
Browsing this board has piqued my interest in Silat and the others mentioned in the subject. My first question is what are the differences?? They all often seem to be mentioned together. Is Silat the parent while Kali, Arnis, and Eskrima could be considered children or cousins? Also, does anyone know of schools or teachers near the Seattle area for any of these styles? Or any video downloads or documents concerning these styles? I'd really love to see what they actually look like in full motion. Thanks in advance for the knowledge!
They're often mentitioned together in the United States, but trust me they're not in the Philipines. Most escrimador maestros have never even seen silat, perhaps there were a few such as Jaunito Lacoste who traveled widely in the Philipines, were accepted by someone and allowed to learn silat. But most grandmasters when you talk to them actually developed thier escrima to protect themselves and fight against people from the southern philipines. Its not uncommon in conversation for them to talk about how many moros they've killed. When you ask them about empty hand depending on the generation they'll either say boxing, and maybe combat judo or karate. If they know silat, like GT Gaje, they may have learned in Indonesia. Regarding dumog, dumog is farmers sport often practiced at festivals and in most places looks like a game of seeing who can put who on thier back first. Usually they have no other combat skills then the ability to dislodge someone and put them on the floor. The dumog taught by GT Gaje is paticularly viscious and seems to be only in Negros. I have it on good authority the dumog he does can really be found in Negros. I've no idea where JKD got thier dumog.
Regarding silat, its even difficult for a pesilat born in Mindanao to get other families to show them thier silat. Unlike in the rest of the Malay world its a very private affair usually reserved to your own family or specific castes. Hopefully in the future this will change, but I believe most of Mindanao doesn't realize what a deep and beautiful art it holds.

[Crucible]

Hi everyone,
Browsing this board has piqued my interest in Silat and the others mentioned in the subject. My first question is what are the differences?? They all often seem to be mentioned together. Is Silat the parent while Kali, Arnis, and Eskrima could be considered children or cousins? Also, does anyone know of schools or teachers near the Seattle area for any of these styles? Or any video downloads or documents concerning these styles? I'd really love to see what they actually look like in full motion. Thanks in advance for the knowledge!
The best place to find documents regarding silat would guru O'ong Maryono's webpage, http://www.kpsnusantara.com/ .

The Philipine arts, arnis/kali/escrima, would be more cousins to silat then children. The important thing to emphasize with Philipine arts is the focus on bladed and other weapon(impact/projectile/flexible) arts. 80% of police forces in the USA base some portition of thier defense skills on Philipine arts, as do the US marines and navy seals, and its due to the recognition of thier authority with weapons. Empty hand skills have grown out of the FMA's(Filipino martial arts) that are quite sophisticated, but I it would be inaccurate to refer it as silat.

[krys]

Harimau literally translates as "tiger." It's a Sumatran system of Silat that involves a lot of groundfighting.

Harimaw is not only sumatran. There are many Harimaw styles in the archipelago, some are based on groundfighting other on standup. In the southern Philippines and Sabah crocodile systems are well known for their groundfighting ability.

[moe389]

Thanx for the info!! It make's sense cause alot of what i saw was ground work sort of ? It was alot of realy low stances and crawling motions. Alot of take downs from the knee and ankle using your feet in opposite levers or hands and even your body to take an opponet down. They always went from a stand up silat stance like from their tiga. I had a chance to talk to my sifu/guro he had some basic info on the subject for me too. Ilook forward to learning the style one day to expand be a better martial artist.

thanx moe389

[ptkali778]

First off Kali is a Silat style! The word Kali is not Filipino but Indonesian. It's the Bahasia language for river. Your suppose to think of the stick as a river continuously flowing no matter what. Throw a boulder in a river and the water will go under, over, through or around it but it will continue to flow. Hence, what your suppose to do in Kali is always flow like water & never stop.

cool! i've never heard of these before. i like it, flow your stick/weapon like a river. thus using water principle like other arts do.
anyways, i think kali/escrima/arnis and silat go hand in hand, they compliment each other. kali is my weapon and silat is my empty hand type a thing...anyways that's just my opinion.

[moe389]

when do all angles become one angle?????

[Saiful Azraq]

Salam hormat,

I've only studied Pekiti Tirsia Kali but presently, I don't seem to see the similarities between Silat and that FMA. I wonder if anybody out there who's studied any Silat that does resemble any particular FMA?

Salam persilatan

[moe389]

I believe empty handed kali is very similar to silat. At least from what I have seen it maybe not true for all styles of kali and silat.


thanx moe389

[pesilat]

I believe empty handed kali is very similar to silat. At least from what I have seen it maybe not true for all styles of kali and silat.


thanx moe389

In what I've seen, there are quite a few similarities in techniques. But the mindset is a little different. I can't think how to really explain the difference between mindsets right now. Maybe someone else can chime in or I'll try to come back to it later when I've thought about a good explanation of the difference.

Mike

[dennisservaes]

I want to thank everyone for their intrest in Serrada. I have trained at the academy longer than ayone outside the Cabales family. Serrada is a complete system. It was a secretive art in the Philippines, until in 1966 the Great Grandmaster Angel Cabales the Father of Escrima in America began teaching a corriculum to anyone willing to practice in Stockton, California. Very few have completed that corriculum. I trained with the Cabales family and the way we train is more detailed than the corriculum. The Grandmaster Vincent Cabales Sr. teaches his father's art the same way he was himself taught.

Serrada begins training using an arm length stick. Later the same techniques can often be translated to blade use and empty hand fighting. Much of the joint manipulation also is from the stick. We have grappling and Kickboxing that is unique to Serrada. We are able to counter attacks that would overwhelm most any other martial art system, because our blocks are preparations for our own attacks, so we don't have to block and then attack- we simply counter counter counter.

Serrada is perfect for women and children. However, few instructors are willing to teach children for liabilitiy reasons.

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[dennisservaes]

Where does Serrada fall into the mix? I have studied some techniques from this style but otherwise know very little about it. I do know the techniques I learned were intended for a blade rather than a stick (but could work with either). I read somewhere that Serrada is a form of Escrima. Would I be way off track to guess that Serrada is simply a blade-oriented style of escrima?

Serrada translates from stick to blade to empty hand use.

De Thouars Kun Tao Silat, that I learned from Bruce Juchnik has some similarities to Serrada. Wing Chun Kung Fu has trapping hands similar to Serrada. Small Circle Jujitsu has some joint manipulation with similarities to Serrada. And there are nerve strikes and killing techniques similar to San Soo Kung Fu and some military combatives. I've also noticed some Military Sambo techniques that are the same.

The arm length stick that we start training with later translates to bladed weapons and empty hand fighting. This means more techniques are not neccessary as most systems require separate techniques for weapons and punching and grappling, so we have three systems in one, making Serrada much more complete than many other martial art systems. Also, our blocks are preparations for our own attacks so that we don't have to be in a defensive mode blocking, because when we are blocking we are in reality preparing our own attack so that we counter counter counter. Whereas most any other martial art systems can simply be overwhelmed using the element of surprise and relentless attacks. We will not only see it coming but we we counter it.

You are right the stick and blade techniques can be used somewhat interchangeably. This makes our cuts deeper, rather than superficial cuts over the surface, as some blade arts may teach. Thrusts and deep cuts are much more destructive than surface cuts. The tip of the stick furthest from your hand hits harder than the middle area of the stick. Continous training to hit with the tip of the stick imprints indelibly into the subconscious mind so that when translating to blades the blade tip continues deeper on hits.

Serrada is more than a stickfighting art. Serrada is more than a weapon art, and the empty hands techniques were developed to fight against an armed opponent.

The best to you in Serrada!
Train hard and have fun!
Guro Dennis Servaes

[RubyMoon]

Serrada translates from stick to blade to empty hand use.Thank you for your prompt, informative and courteous reply!

(Well...two out of three ain't bad!) :D

[Crucible]

Just curious Dennis when did you begin your serrada training? When you do your blade applications whats your prefered weapon? What's your opinion on the other Serrada masters out there?

[dennisservaes]

Just curious Dennis when did you begin your serrada training? When you do your blade applications whats your prefered weapon? What's your opinion on the other Serrada masters out there?

Crucible, - I started FMA and Serrada at a Community College in the Fall of 1979. Then years later I trained with Bruce Juchnik and got a Black Belt in Modern Arnis- Remy Presas Style September 14, 1988. While training with Bruce I was also introduced to Silat- Kuntao and Serrada. October 22, 1992 I met Grandmaster Vincent Angel Cabales and have trained from him until now. This is my 13th year of training in Serrada.

When I train in knife training I prefer training with an old oak wood knife. In demos we use an aluminum training-demo knife. I have been cut in knife fights and my own blood made the knife slippery as a fish, but I prevailed. I think it is good to become familiar with the feel of your own weapon, and your training knife should resemble your favorite weapon, because we fight the away we train.

Different masters are different. Most Serrada people are a good group of people and able to fight and defend themselves effectively, and then there are some that claim to be Serrada, that may or may not be good, regardless who they trained from. To instruct at Guro level requires authorization from whoever the current Grandmaster is. Right now that is Grandmaster Vincent Cabales Sr. He is absolutely the best of the Masters.

What a person is willing to do as far as their training, and with their training is up to each individual. Some of the masters have continued to complete the system and others didn't want to, but true self defense isn't about hurting others or competition or rank. It isn't a sport. You may hurt the other person, you may be required to kill an attacker, but your own safety should be top priority. You may have to just go bezerk! and unwind for all you are worth in a forced situation. Before that happens if you are aware leave if possible. No one wins in a challenge knife to knife confrontation. If you kill someone you owe a life. Trouble is we only know how to take lives, and only God can give life.

Train hard and have fun!
Guro Dennis Servaes

[Crucible]

Crucible, - I started FMA and Serrada at a Community College in the Fall of 1979. Then years later I trained with Bruce Juchnik and got a Black Belt in Modern Arnis- Remy Presas Style September 14, 1988. While training with Bruce I was also introduced to Silat- Kuntao and Serrada. October 22, 1992 I met Grandmaster Vincent Angel Cabales and have trained from him until now. This is my 13th year of training in Serrada. Do you see a large difference between the FMA you learned from Bruce Juchnik and how your currently learning it at the Cables school? Or looked at a diffrent way was there a difference between how Bruce Juchnik presented and taught serrada and how its currently being taught to you?

I think it is good to become familiar with the feel of your own weapon, and your training knife should resemble your favorite weapon, because we fight the away we train.Do you know Angels favorite blade was? Or the current head? Do you have a favorite blade from the Philippines?

Different masters are different. Most Serrada people are a good group of people and able to fight and defend themselves effectively, and then there are some that claim to be Serrada, that may or may not be good, regardless who they trained from. DO you see a distinct difference in the skill or knowledge of the techniques in students from the 60s', 70s' and 80s'?



To instruct at Guro level requires authorization from whoever the current Grandmaster is. Right now that is Grandmaster Vincent Cabales Sr. He is absolutely the best of the Masters.Out of ignorance and my own curiosity, do you know there was a document or ceremony proclaiming Vincent Cabales as grandmaster? Asking simply because I'm uninformed.

Train hard and have fun!
Guro Dennis Servaes
Thanks!

[dennisservaes]

Crucible
In response to your questions, below are my answers.

Do I see a large difference between the FMA I learned from Bruce Juchnik and how I am currently learning it at the Cables Academy? Absolutely! There are a lot of differences. The students progress slow with the Grandmaster and are closely coached in minute details, and more techniques and what mistakes to look for and not make. Bruce teaches 13 systems so you get what you get when you train with Bruce. I think I got a broader look at various martial arts from Bruce, but not the depth I wanted. Bruce had black belts that were supposed to help teach and one was Lyle Herman. Although I hold no ranking in Chi Ling Pai Kung Fu, I studied it from Lyle Herman for a couple of years while at Bruce's school. I also studied Kempo and was to the Nihanshi Forms. I also trained in Taekwondo from Lyle Herman. Lyle and I had both previously trained from Jong H. Lee in Taekwondo. My main interests were FMA, and Silat.

Two of Bruce's mentors were James Mitose and Robert Trias. I think both of them were strong influences on Bruce's thinking. Bruce has a yearly gathering where hundreds of black belts attend from all around the world from various systems and styles. Bruce appointed Grandmaster Vincent Cabales as a Senior Advisor in the Martial Arts Collective Society.

Incedently, Grandmaster Vincent Cabales Sr. an inductee into the SOKE, and many SOKE Grandmaster have attended these gatherings.


Do I know what Angels favorite blade was? I know which dagger Angel used in challenge matches, and Grandmaster Vincent Cabales Sr. now has it.


It is my understanding that Angel did not prefer an opening type knife such as a balisong, but preferred instead a knife already opened. The handle should slant downwards or the front of the blade low so that on a backwards draw the blade digs deeper. Nothing real complicated.


DO I see a distinct difference in the skill or knowledge of the techniques in students from the 60s', 70s' and 80s'? For myself, I just keep practicing and improving, and the same with most of the other Serrada people. The earlier students of Angel spent more time training and are some of the best. It depends upon the individual. Some of the last of Angels students didn't learn that much and didn't put in the time, because of misunderstanding and bickering etc. FMA is a blend of effective fighting techniques, so most American FMA has some Serrada in it now. SSSS

Do I know if there was a document or ceremony proclaiming Vincent Cabales as grandmaster? Great Grandmaster Angel retained his title until he died, even though he had turned the school over to his son Grandmaster Vincent Cabales Sr. a year earlier, and I don't think there was a ceremony, because Angel didn't give up. He was dieing of cancer but hoped to beat it. Unfortunately he didn't.

When, Master Jimmy Tacosa got his Master Degree in 1983 or 1984, several people from the martial arts magazines were there. Jimmy's girlfriend had a fancy diploma made up that said Jimmy would take over the school when Angel retired or died. Angel was very upset and said that his son Vincent was the one who is going to take over, and when he refused to sign it the girlfriend said, "Who is better Vincent or Jimmy? Fight and then we will know." She was also cussing. I spoke to Tony Teixeria about this, and then listened to a tape he had recorded. Angel and Tony Teixeira and Tony's wife Gwen were sitting on Jimmy's couch while Jimmy and his girlfriend went upstairs to argue. After a half hour or so Angel was ready to leave, because Jimmy didn't come back down. I understand Jimmy apologized later.

I wish I were more diplomatic, but I think your questions deserve true answers.
Guro Dennis Servaes

[Crucible]

Wow, Thanks.
It is my understanding that Angel did not prefer an opening type knife such as a balisong, but preferred instead a knife already opened. The handle should slant downwards or the front of the blade low so that on a backwards draw the blade digs deeper. Nothing real complicated.
Can you post a picture?

Do I know what Angels favorite blade was? I know which dagger Angel used in challenge matches, and Grandmaster Vincent Cabales Sr. now has it.
Sorry should have been more specific. Do you have a favorite sword from the Philippines, and do you know what Angel's sword of preference was, or Vincent's?

[Esgrimador]

First off Kali is a Silat style! The word Kali is not Filipino but Indonesian. It's the Bahasia language for river. Your suppose to think of the stick as a river continuously flowing no matter what. Throw a boulder in a river and the water will go under, over, through or around it but it will continue to flow. Hence, what your suppose to do in Kali is always flow like water & never stop.

Can you provide solid evidence for the above?

I ask this because, time and again, different serious researchers have found that "Kali" is not an historically valid term for FMA. Mark Wiley covered it in detail in his excellent book, Filipino Martial Culture. Romy Macapagal, the archivist for the Kalis Ilustrisimo system, also commented on it, in this article from Realfighting.com:

About the term "Kali"
The word "kali" did not come about until about 20 years or so ago and seems to have been coined somewhere, sometime by Filipinos living in the USA. I have personally conducted a search for the word "kali" amongst old people of the major tribes and, except for "kalis" which means sword and "kali" in Ilocano, which means "a hole in the ground"; there is no other word or cognate of "kali".

Ilustrisimo used "kali" on the insistence of Mr. Leo Gaje who had visited with Tatang and also by an American anthropologist specializing in hoplology (which is a study of handheld, non-missile weapons), who seemed to have picked it up from Dan Inosanto's book. When I joined Tatang, "Kali Ilustrisimo" had been registered for about two or three years. Tony Diego (the present head of the Ilustrisimo system) and I, after the research mentioned, decided that "Kalis" is the more appropriate word because it means "sword" and would then mean the "Sword of Ilustrisimo." The name has not been formally registered except on a website but we had decided on this even when Tatang was still active and alive.

The entire article can be found here:

http://www.realfighting.com/issue7/romyframe.html

The following articles by Dr. Ned Nepangue and Celestino Macachor also show the problems with the whole "Kali" deal:

http://cebueskrima.s5.com/custom2.html


Arnis & Eskrima are Spanish words. They're Northern Filipino stick fighting mixed with European sword fighting.

Arnis and eskrima are not "Spanish words"--they are, in fact, Spanish-derived Tagalog terms. Arnis is derived from the Spanish term arnes, which means "harness" (and "harness", in this case, specifically means "armor"). Hence, Arnis de mano literally means "armor of the hands". Eskrima, on the other hand, is derived from the Spanish word esgrima, which simply means "fencing". The term for fencing is naturally similar in all of the Romance languages--esgrima (Spanish), escrime (French), scherma (Italian), and so on.

[Bayani]

Dennis please check your pm.

[starrider7777]

I find this discussion very informative. My general understanding of the differences in these styles has long been a little blurry.
I trained in a place where they all simply flowed together. My general understanding was that the terms kali, escrima, arnis and silat were nearly synonymous. One could nail down specific differences within the forms, but, the general concepts were alike. I asked my instructor one time what the differences were and he basically smiled and shrugged and just said that mostly there were different words from different regions and different innovations from different regions and different teachers...the arts were diverse like language itself in some ways. He himself was a product of the Doce Pares "style" of Espada Y Daga that came out of Cebu City. He went on to say he didn't spend a whole lot of time trying to differentiate between the origins of the moves...he just adopted what worked. He was a two time world champion in Knife and stick sport fighting (Espada Y Daga). I really liked his stripped down approach to teaching. He focused on the blending of concepts rather than adherence to one particular stylized expression of the craft. I expressed wanting to learn silat which tickled him...not many asked him about it. He seemed to enjoy teaching me empty hands techniques out of silat concepts. it was a JKD school and at the time he was putiing us thu Muay Thai conditioning work outs and then breaking off into smaller groups to help us with whatever we desired. at the time most people were interested in BJJ and groundfighting. I was one of the few that was trying to pick up Kali, Escrima and the only one interested in Silat. In the end it all kind of flowed together and I have developed good lateralization with concepts from all these "styles."

[Wali]

I must add that Kali/Arnis/Escrima and Silat are very different arts. In the US, it is often labelled together as 'Kali-Silat', however, traditional Silat bears little resemblance in it's concepts to Arnis/Kali.

Students begin their training on the ground, and only come upright after they have become familiar and comfortable there, building body strength and mobility. They then come upright, and learn basic body movement and hand drills. Weapons aren't introduced until later on, and even then, they comply with the principles of movement the student has been learning to that point, so the use of the weapon (the 1st weapon is usually the 'pisau' - a knife).

I don't want to sound padantic, but reading some of the comments, it is assumed that Silat and Kali are basically the same art with slight variations. This is not the case.

While SOME movements MAY seem similar, this is because of the close geographical locations between the Phillipines and Indonesia, and some elemets are organically incorporated by different travellers. The principles of the systems, however, are very different.

Regards,
Wali

[krys]

Students begin their training on the ground, and only come upright after they have become familiar and comfortable there, building body strength and mobility.

That depends on the system.....There are lots of silat systems with differents tactics and curiculums. In the system I practice stand up comes first, then ground and after showing good mastery of empty hands and proper moral attitude, weapons.

[Wali]

Traditoinally, the older silat styles started from the ground. This is still seen today in most Indonesian villages, where they don't come up until a good mastery on ground is achieved.

There are systems which start upright, but this wasn't always the case. But to not sideline from the topic, my main point was the stressing in differentiating the Silat from the Kali.

Cheers,
Wali

[krys]

Traditoinally, the older silat styles started from the ground. This is still seen today in most Indonesian villages, where they don't come up until a good mastery on ground is achieved.

Silat isn't limited to Indonesia :).
The filipino silat I practice is in my mafamilly for a very long time (we can trace it 11 generations back).

There are different systems of escrima in the Philippines. I agree most arnis-escrima styles practiced in the Visayas and Luzon feel very different from silat...tactics and teaching have little in common...

but the systems practiced by the southern muslim filipinos and other non hispanized tribes share some similarities with silat (footwork, blade handling....). Those arts are little known and not, to my knowledge, taught outside the Philippines.

[Wali]

"Those arts are little known and not, to my knowledge, taught outside the Philippines" (I don't know how to quote others in the cool little box!!!)

This is exactly what I mean. I am reffering to the mainstream US and UK taught Kali, as this bears little resemblance to the Silat which I have been exposed to (which is also very rare and not taught to everyone).

On my journeys, I have also seen many styles call themselves Silat, which looked more like karate or TKD, so I am talking from a perspective of a pure Silat style that retains its authenticity.

Cheers,
Wali

[dennisservaes]

Silat isn't limited to Indonesia :).
The filipino silat I practice is in my mafamilly for a very long time (we can trace it 11 generations back).

There are different systems of escrima in the Philippines. I agree most arnis-escrima styles practiced in the Visayas and Luzon feel very different from silat...tactics and teaching have little in common...

but the systems practiced by the southern muslim filipinos and other non hispanized tribes share some similarities with silat (footwork, blade handling....). Those arts are little known and not, to my knowledge, taught outside the Philippines.

I would like a diagram and photos of that footwork.

[starrider7777]

I must add that Kali/Arnis/Escrima and Silat are very different arts. In the US, it is often labelled together as 'Kali-Silat', however, traditional Silat bears little resemblance in it's concepts to Arnis/Kali.
Of course you are right. Technically they are all distinctive. This is true especially when you add the qualifier "traditional". My own training was not traditional by any means. However, I do have some instructional videos that each present Silat and Escrima etc. in more traditonal formats. The differences are far more apparent in these video presentations than from my experiences in the kwoon. In the U.S., especially in "JKD" type environments, all these styles kind of end up being stripped down and hybridized. While this approach is not "pure" to any specific style...its product can still be effective. That's my point. Also, I am quite interested in what you fellows are saying here...I am learning more about the origins and distinction of these things...thanks. :)

[shootodog]

kali is indonesian? wow! the grand tuhon of pekiti tirsia kali never said so!

[pesilat]

kali is indonesian? wow! the grand tuhon of pekiti tirsia kali never said so!

I've seen this statement several times recently out here on the net. There is a theory that the Pilipino people as we know them today are mostly descended from Indonesians who migrated - the whole story of the seven Datus and such. And there is almost certainly some connection between Filipino and Indonesian MA owing to the fact that both were influenced by the Majapahit empire.

But to say that "Kali is Indonesian" is a bit of a stretch in my estimation. They share common roots, of course. But over the past 700+ years they've had very different influences and have evolved into pretty different arts - though some individual systems are very similar to each other. The two do usually mesh and compliment each other very well, though :)

Mike

[dennisservaes]

I've seen this statement several times recently out here on the net. There is a theory that the Pilipino people as we know them today are mostly descended from Indonesians who migrated - the whole story of the seven Datus and such. And there is almost certainly some connection between Filipino and Indonesian MA owing to the fact that both were influenced by the Majapahit empire.

But to say that "Kali is Indonesian" is a bit of a stretch in my estimation. They share common roots, of course. But over the past 700+ years they've had very different influences and have evolved into pretty different arts - though some individual systems are very similar to each other. The two do usually mesh and compliment each other very well, though :)

Mike

I agree with you Mike, that Kali is not Indonesian. The Kriss was brought by the Muslims and was traded or taken in skirmish, and the Spanish refered to enemies using the blade as Moros. What is referred to as Kali in my oppinion is ancient Filipino Martial Arts, however, that term did not exist until recently according to my research, it is an abreviated version of Tajakalili or Kalis or some other word. The word Morro didn't come around until the arrival of Spanish to name the new and old enemy warriors Morros.
Train hard and have fun!
Guro Dennis Servaes

P.S. I have a group http://sports.groups.yahoo.com/group/csemt/ and it has been dormant for a few days, but everyone can join and discuss FMA, and other stuff.

[Wali]

The Kriss was brought by the Muslims and was traded or taken in skirmish, and the Spanish refered to enemies using the blade as Moros.

I have to say that the Kriss was an Indonesian weapon before Islamic influence, and is most closely traced back to the Vaedic influences.

Cheers,
Wali

[shootodog]

I have to say that the Kriss was an Indonesian weapon before Islamic influence, and is most closely traced back to the Vaedic influences.

Cheers,
Wali

there are several different types of krises. several are indigenous only to filipino muslims.

[Wali]

there are several different types of krises. several are indigenous only to filipino muslims.

I think you will find these aren't Silat Krisses, so to speak. By this I mean they dont have some of the key aspects of the traditional Silat Kriss, other than the blade. My point was that the Kriss knife was in Indonesia well before ANY established religion set there.

As you are aware, the whole area is a very blade oriented place, and there was lots of travel and trade, and influences between regions took place over many years, so there will be similarities.

[krys]

I think you will find these aren't Silat Krisses, so to speak. By this I mean they dont have some of the key aspects of the traditional Silat Kriss, other than the blade.

Krisses are used in filipino silat.... their design may be different from those of Indonesian krisses but they still are traditional weapons for filipino muslims.

I am not an expert on Indonesian weapons but believe the Indonesian kriss is usuallly smaller and primarly used for stabbing while filipino krisses are normaly larger slashing weapons.

[Crucible]

What is referred to as Kali in my oppinion is ancient Filipino Martial Arts,

do you mean literally or contextually?

however, that term did not exist until recently according to my research, it is an abreviated version of Tajakalili or Kalis or some other word. Can you state what your references for this are? I'm pretty uninformed about Tajakalili, what it looks like, where its practicied, when it existed, and who the people are/where who used it. Thanks.

[dennisservaes]

An old man at a tournament in October of 1992 said he never ever heard the term "Kali" anywhere in the Philippines, and that he thinks it is BS unless it came from the word Tajakalili. You can find reference to the term Tajakalili in several books. The old man said that Mindano and Sulu did some Silat, but no Kali and that Escrima was the Generic term used. Also many kinds of Arnis. But NO Kali. Ted Lucaylucay's Dad I think his name was Lucky was at the same event, but only chuckled about that. He didn't comment. In an interview at http://www.cdfacademies.com/interview_with_ted_lucaylucay.htm Ted Lucaylucay says the following, "The only real Kali School at that time was the Villabralle in Hawaii. Largusa Kali in San Francisco and Dan Inosanto’s school. Everyone else was studying Escrima and Arnis." I have spoken to numerous people that would not lie to me and they confirm that Kali was probably coined by the Villabralle group from the word Tajakalili.

I don't know of anyone using the term Tajakalili either.

I met someone that named his art the Lapulapu Escrima system, and said that it was a family art and that his father had been in numerous death matches and was also a boxer and never defeated in the Philippines. I asked, "really?" His Mom and Dad confirmed his story, but I knew he was inventing a story. He has scince then come up with another version of that story and renamed his system. In sales packaging is important, but so is honesty.

Train hard and have fun!
Guro Dennis Servaes

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/csemt/

[Grind]

I have to agree, I am loving this discussion - and feel very lucky to be able to read the views of westerners and filipinos alike.

Is is fascinating for me to read this, as I am at the complete other end of the spectrum from these discussions. I have been practising JKD concept arts for 7 years now - and as you know Guro Inosanto has had a massive influence over JKD concept arts since Bruce Lee's death.

Many things I have studied over the years are of filipino origin, but were just named kali silat for ease and convenience, and now after reading this post I am beginning to understand why! So until very recently I had no idea about the origins of the movements that I have learned, be they kali silat escrima or arnis - recently I asked my Sifu what the silat we studied was called and he replied Bukit Negra and Kuntao. I now believe that IF it IS kuntao, it is not the 'real' kuntao of Mindanao origin - but more likely a newer, less secretive hybrid.

I am happy to keep learning as I am, and will always endevour to find out more about Fma.s!

[Crucible]

Grind, who is your guro?

[Grind]

Grind, who is your guro?
PM'd you mate, otherwise we're shooting off topic a bit if we're getting into instructors chat...that's a different thread I believe lol :Angel:

[tellner]

Is is fascinating for me to read this, as I am at the complete other end of the spectrum from these discussions. I have been practising JKD concept arts for 7 years now - and as you know Guro Inosanto has had a massive influence over JKD concept arts since Bruce Lee's death.

Guro Inosanto is a very humble man and doesn't put himself forward, so it's up to some of the rest of us to do it :cool: He has taken his martial arts base to places that the late Mr. Lee probably never even thought of. It's a function of time and dedication.

recently I asked my Sifu what the silat we studied was called and he replied Bukit Negra and Kuntao. I now believe that IF it IS kuntao, it is not the 'real' kuntao of Mindanao origin - but more likely a newer, less secretive hybrid.

The word Kun Tao can mean a lot of things depending on where you are. In Indonesia it's the Chinese martial arts as practiced in the Malay world. So for some value of the word "Kuntao" the original Kuntao isn't from Mindanao.

[Crucible]

The word Kun Tao can mean a lot of things depending on where you are. In Indonesia it's the Chinese martial arts as practiced in the Malay world. So for some value of the word "Kuntao" the original Kuntao isn't from Mindanao.
"Original" is a funny topic, I think its more a case of there being several forms of kuntao throughout the malay world that are distinct from one another. In Malaysia they are systems that have no chinese influence, they're considered purely silat, and they've adopted kuntao/kuntau into their name. BTW, one could read from your post that Mindanao isn't part of the malay world. Dunya Melayu Nusantara(the malay diaspora) spreads from Madagascar off the coast of Africa, through southern Thailand, Singapore, Malaysia, Indonesia, Brunei and the Philippines. Mindanao is part of the malay world and kuntao practiced there is as indigenous as it is any where else in the nusantara.

[Crucible]

PM'd you mate, otherwise we're shooting off topic a bit if we're getting into instructors chat...that's a different thread I believe lol :Angel:
I hope you don't mind, but I'm going to respond to you here, it does pertain a little to the topic. I often ask people on forums such as these who their instructor is because it gives me an idea of their background as it pertains to the topic. Example you mentioned JKD, I know of two well known JKD instructors who have spent some time learning combatives from the southern P.I.. How much they actually were shown I have know idea, but I do know they either spent time in the southern Philippines or with a genuine pesilat.

BTW, I get a lot of PMs. So I prefer in most circumstances to communicate on the public forums. My mailbox tends to fill up pretty quick.

[Grind]

No Crucible I don't mind at all, thanks for taking the time to reply. In fact thanks to Tellner and you for explaining about kun-tao. It's always nice to pick up info and opinions!

[tellner]

*sigh*. I guess I'm not being clear....

Kun Tao/Kuntaw/Kune Dao/etc. means a lot of different things depending on where you are. In Indonesia one of the more common meanings is "Chinese martial arts as they are practiced around here". So not all authentic Kun Tao is from Mindanao. Lingusitically the words Kun Tao are derived from the Chinese.

[Crucible]

No problem friend, it was the way your post was written,

The word Kun Tao can mean a lot of things depending on where you are. In Indonesia it's the Chinese martial arts as practiced in the Malay world. So for some value of the word "Kuntao" the original Kuntao isn't from Mindanao.
Thats the problem with the internet, easy for pionts to be mistaken :) . Cheers!

[archrival_keysi]

Hey 2 anybody who reads this

I have done a few seminars of silat and been extremely impressed with it the instructor is Steve Benitez and his whole understanding speed prosision and the use of multiple kicks and stricks was just awsome his intensity is on another plain just wondered if anybody else has experienced this from other silat instructors as.

Regards to eveerybody

[Silatyogi]

According to Ben Largusa /Floro Villabrial (probably one of the best practitioners of Kali )

KALI is derived from Indonesian SILAT.

[Crucible]

Silatyogi.....Hello,
*sigh*

Please show me one Indonesian system that does kali.
Please show me one native Philippine silat system(Lacoste kali, Inosanto blend and Maphilindo don't count) that does kali.
Not hybrid systems developed offshore, but actual arts developed in their countries of origin passed down from previous generations.

GM Villibrille's certificate from the govenor general of the Philippines says 'grandmaster of eskrima' not kali. Villibrille's Uncles and relatives were eskrimadors not kalistas. His contempories, drinking and training buddies on the docks of Tondo (GM Mena, GM Ilustrisimo, GM Cabales, GM Dizon) were eskrima and arnis players.

If central and northern Philippine weapon systems want to call themselves kali thats fine, but if you use kali in the same sentence as silat it should be noted that there is no kali in southern Philippines. Why would kali be derived from Indonesian silat, when none of the native pracititioners of silat in the Philippines have ever heard of the term unless it was from some central or northern Philippine kali player?

[Silatyogi]

#66 Today, 08:00 PM
Crucible
Valued Member Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 487

Silatyogi.....Hello,
*sigh*

Please show me one Indonesian system that does kali.
Please show me one native Philippine silat system(Lacoste kali, Inosanto blend and Maphilindo don't count) that does kali.
Not hybrid systems developed offshore, but actual arts developed in their countries of origin passed down from previous generations.

GM Villibrille's certificate from the govenor general of the Philippines says 'grandmaster of eskrima' not kali. Villibrille's Uncles and relatives were eskrimadors not kalistas. His contempories, drinking and training buddies on the docks of Tondo (GM Mena, GM Ilustrisimo, GM Cabales, GM Dizon) were eskrima and arnis players.

If central and northern Philippine weapon systems want to call themselves kali thats fine, but if you use kali in the same sentence as silat it should be noted that there is no kali in southern Philippines. Why would kali be derived from Indonesian silat, when none of the native pracititioners of silat in the Philippines have ever heard of the term unless it was from some central or northern Philippine kali player? >>



In two seperate ocassions I was told by both by Guru Dan Inosanto & Guru Cass Magda that The name Kali was created by Ben Largusa. It is true that you say "KALI" doesn't exist in the Islands of the Philippines per say but escrima does.

The Philipino people have roots from Indonesia. There are elements of SILAT in their styles of both weaponry and emptyhand. Look at old video footage of Villabraile, Juanito Lacoste even Angel Cabales, Tujon Leo Gaje a lot of their movements have very very similar movements found in pencak silat.

Ofcourse there is also a huge Spanish influence in the way the ecrimadors use their swords and stick but when you get to the knife, the empty hand , flexible weapons etc it looks a lot like silat.

anyhow I have never been to the philipino islands so I only know what my teachers here in the US have taught me.

take care

Santiago

[ICT]

In two seperate ocassions I was told by both by Guru Dan Inosanto & Guru Cass Magda that The name Kali was created by Ben Largusa. It is true that you say "KALI" doesn't exist in the Islands of the Philippines per say but escrima does.

If Ben Largusa invented the name Kali for a type of Filipino stick fighting then why has it never been told and why does most of the Filipino masters over here use the word to differentiate themselves from Arnis & Escrima and why do they all say it's from the Southern Filipines?

Here are 2 more Filipino masters that I know says Kali is from the Southern Filipines and is of Silat origin: Bo Sayoc (from Sayoc Kali) and Ray Dionaldo (from Filipino Combat Systems).

Why would all the people that use the word Kali conspire to use the name Ben Largusa invented for his own style? Just doesn't make any sense.

What makes sense is that it is a highly secretive style from the Southern Filipines and why most Filipinos have never heard of it.

Sincerely,
Teacher: Eddie Ivester

[shootodog]

ever notice how these kali guys from the philippines come from the visayas and not mindanao (which is the southern most islands in the philippines). the most prevalent systems there are called silat. it is silat that is secretively taught in the south. it is also coincidental that mindanao is where most muslims in the philippines. that they royal sultanates there are related to the rest of the sultanates in south east asia.

[soulguru]

ever notice how these kali guys from the philippines come from the visayas and not mindanao (which is the southern most islands in the philippines). the most prevalent systems there are called silat. it is silat that is secretively taught in the south. it is also coincidental that mindanao is where most muslims in the philippines. that they royal sultanates there are related to the rest of the sultanates in south east asia.

nicely put, brothr. in mindanao, especially in the sulu islands, emphasis is bladed weapons and silat- sometimes erroneously referred to as just "kuntaw". in fact, the Tausugs have this mindset that Kuntaw and Silat are just one and the same; though from what i've learned and experienced, these systems have overlapped already, plus an assortment of other influencesl like, Indian, Javanese styles, etc...

[Bobster]

Something to consider is that "Eskrima" and "Arnis" are both SPANISH BASED words. Now, what was the art called BEFORE the Spanish occupation? If you don't like "Kali", fine, but don't throw "Arnis" or "Eskrima" up as your argument, unless you are saying that the SPANISH named the art!

Don't start your journey looking for the answer in THIS century (or the last) it isn't there. Modern Tagalog won't reflect what the art once was, there is too much Spanish influence in the language. Same for Bahasa Indonesia, the Dutch influence is obvious in many grammatical instances.

"Why would kali be derived from Indonesian silat, when none of the native pracititioners of silat in the Philippines have ever heard of the term unless it was from some central or northern Philippine kali player?"

The word for river in Indonesian is "Kali". Also, it is the word for time. A current theory is that the PRE-SPANISH term for this art was "Kali" due to it's approach to "Flow" (What a river does). The look of the "Flow" was likely very similar to the Indonesian approach centuries ago, when the people were closer, before they "crossed the river" (Taga-Ilog, or Tagalog). As the Filipino culture evolved further away from the Indo-Malay, the arts probably evolved as well, forming a slightly different look and feel.

Both arts (Kali and Silat) very obviously share a mutual parent. Both arts began centuries ago. Both arts have evolved due to exposure to TWO DIFFERENT cultures (Dutch for the Indos, Spanish for the Flips). Finding a modern theory for this argument seems to be a dead end, what is needed is a historical approach, with a view as to what was happening all along the archipelago in the past 300-400 years.

There are many theories to this argument. No one can say who is right by current evidence presented as the ONLY facts available.

Saying things like "Not hybrid systems developed offshore, but actual arts developed in their countries of origin passed down from previous generations" is a loaded staement, because there are LOTS of things no longer in existence due to Spanish and Dutch rule. For instance, I could say "Please show me ONE PERSON who can accurately translate the Laguna Copperplate inscription". No such person exists. Does this mean that the Filipinos never had a pre-Spanish written language?

Just something different to think about. The information is there if you look beyond the "martial arts".

[ICT]

The word for river in Indonesian is "Kali". Also, it is the word for time. A current theory is that the PRE-SPANISH term for this art was "Kali" due to it's approach to "Flow" (What a river does). The look of the "Flow" was likely very similar to the Indonesian approach centuries ago, when the people were closer, before they "crossed the river" (Taga-Ilog, or Tagalog). As the Filipino culture evolved further away from the Indo-Malay, the arts probably evolved as well, forming a slightly different look and feel.

Bobby,

I would agree with most of what you said. What I was taught in the Silat stick fighting that I learned was that you flow like water (kali)(= the Bahasa word for river) I was told that if you throw a stone into a river it will change course by going over, around, under or through but it will still flow and never stop!

Which is the art of stick fighting, never stopping and continuing to flow, every block is just a change in course and every parry is just a different path to flow.

That is the reason I named the stick fighting I teach Indonesian Kali! It was 2 fold:
1. A lot of stick fighters in America know what Kali is and it's different from Arnis & Escrima. (regardless of what some may say)
2. Kali is what I referred to the stick fighting I learned (note above). I wanted to keep the Indonesian origin of my art so I called it Indonesian Kali to distinguish it from Filipino Kali.

Both arts (Kali and Silat) very obviously share a mutual parent. Both arts began centuries ago. Both arts have evolved due to exposure to TWO DIFFERENT cultures (Dutch for the Indos, Spanish for the Flips). Finding a modern theory for this argument seems to be a dead end, what is needed is a historical approach, with a view as to what was happening all along the archipelago in the past 300-400 years.

Like I have always said, before some Non-Malay drew an imaginary line in the water they were the same people! The language, culture & fighting arts were the same! The Southern Filipines would have the most Indonesian influence because they were closer and why they would have more Indo/Malay words than the North. Hence why the Southern Filipino's would use the word Kali, an Indonesian word. Maybe they cam to the same conclusion about the flow of water and named it Kali or perhaps before Silat, a relatively newer word for the art it was called Kali.

I was never told the Indonesian stick fighting I was taught was called Kali! No it was Silat, there was no differentiating stick, knife or hand to hand. They were all the same art, Silat!

So that is my take on the subject. It is done with thought, without bias and simple deductive reasoning to form these conclusions.

Sincerely,
Teacher: Eddie Ivester

[Bobster]

Hi Eddie, thanks for the reply,

"I was never told the Indonesian stick fighting I was taught was called Kali! No it was Silat, there was no differentiating stick, knife or hand to hand. They were all the same art, Silat!"

Same here, in Bandung the approach to stick, knife and empty hand flow is identical to the Filipino approach. Also, at last year's Silat camp, Bambang was watching me warm up doing some double machete work, and he said, verbatim; "That's your Kali, it looks good". He not only recognized it, he identified it by NAME. Not Eskrima. Not Arnis. I was a little surprised he even knew what it was, as we have never talked about it, although he knows I train FMA as well as Silat.

About that imaginary line in the water, many Filipino words are identical in Bahasa as well, "Payong" and "Gunting" being one of them, and they mean the same thing martially as well, in both cultures. I could go on with other grammatical examples, but if you study the language, you'll see what I mean. This is one of the things that leads me to draw the conclusion I have today. "Conclusion" probably isn't the right word, maybe "Closest thing I have that I recognize as probably true". I wouldn't dismiss the other theories out of hand either, i.e. "Kali comes from the Kalis sword" "Inosanto made it up" "Villabrille made it up" "Has something to do with the Hindu goddess" "It's a compound of two words put together from "LIhok" and "KAmot"", etc. As I said before, since we have no definative source, we have no definative truth.

One other question that I think should be addressed: Why "Kali"? I mean, if it IS a made-up term for public marketing, or exposure to Americans, what on Earth good would come of calling it "Kali" instead of "Eskrima", or the more well known "Arnis"? Or just "Filipino Martial Arts". What motivation does anybody have for saying "This is...Ummm...Lemme think...Aha! KALI!" There has to be a BASIS for the existence of the word, even if it was meant to be a descriptive title and nothing more.

[dennisservaes]

This discussion about the word Kali is thought provoking!... but what I found out http://www.geocities.com/dennisservaes/serrada_magazine.html is that the term kali pre- existed Ben Largusa's teacher Villabrille as a base or root word. Tja-kali-li etc. Tjakalili is the Mother Filipino Martial ART of the Philippines with Kali being the base root word. Kali was easier for most Americans to say so Villabreli was one of the first to use that term.

In the Southern Philippines it is my understanding that Silat and Kuntao are the predominat martial arts there, and if you asked about Kali they would until recently tell you that they "do not do that one."

Dennis
P.S. Join my group at
csemt@yahoogroups.com
csemt-subscribe@yahoogroups.com and post about Kali

[soulguru]

as it is, in the southern philippines, especially in jolo sulu, when we say "Kuntaw", it already connotes the Silat techniques/arts being practised in that area combined w/ the various chinese-influenced combat methods that have been part & parcel of the whole fighting system of the indigeneous Tausugs.

this has been true way before the coming of the Spanish in the Philippines...

This discussion about the word Kali is thought provoking!... but what I found out http://www.geocities.com/dennisservaes/serrada_magazine.html is that the term kali pre- existed Ben Largusa's teacher Villabrille as a base or root word. Tja-kali-li etc. Tjakalili is the Mother Filipino Martial ART of the Philippines with Kali being the base root word. Kali was easier for most Americans to say so Villabreli was one of the first to use that term.

In the Southern Philippines it is my understanding that Silat and Kuntao are the predominat martial arts there, and if you asked about Kali they would until recently tell you that they "do not do that one."

Dennis
P.S. Join my group at
csemt@yahoogroups.com
csemt-subscribe@yahoogroups.com and post about Kali

[dennisservaes]

Actually, I think what most people would consider Kali existed throughout the Philippines, but just not by that term. Kuntao is a blend of Silat and Chinese Martial Arts, and probably Filipino martial arts i.e. Kali by whatever name it was known at the time.