[Choi Kwang Do] Captain Moo Moo counter-counter-attacks!

[captainmoomoo]

Dear all,

In response to Mr Allison:


FIRSTLY : he states that many CKD practitioners aren`t " up to scratch " in his opinion . WHY is it then that so many Tae Kwon Do Masters ( his favourite style ) are flocking towards CKD


I can't honestly answer that question. However, just because there are some TKD practitioners who choose to change over to CKD, doesn't mean that CKD is a superior style (which you clearly suggest in all your posts). There may in fact be any number of other factors influencing the decision of these instructors, many of which are more business oriented than martial art oriented.

For example, did you know, that there are some WTF-TKD schools that do not teach sparring in any form whatsoever, despite the fact that it is a huge part of the WTF? This is because many people are afraid of sparring, and therefore some instructors fear losing students because of this. CKD has no sparring whatsoever as part of its syllabus. In fact, when discussing the absence of sparring in CKD with a very senior officer of the now disbanded United Kingdom CKD Association (UKCA), I was told that this was because it was felt that sparring would "damage sales".

Another possible reason could be the fact that CKD instructors whose students also go on to become instructors, receive a percentage of all the money that is generated through memberships and gradings from the schools of those 'child' instructors. This scheme operates to a depth of up to 3 or 4 levels, thereby creating potential for great earning with no additional effort. Seeing as many of the instructors who have changed over are very senior, it is quite conceivable that they already have a large base of instructors under them, which means they immediately benefit from the above scheme.

I also know of many instructors from other styles who were offered a promotion to the next Dan-rank if they converted over to CKD.

I'm not saying that the above are THE reasons why all the instructors that Mr Allison mentions have changed over to CKD, but am simply presenting them as viable alternatives to his suggestion that they changed over because CKD is superior in terms of its health benefits and self-defence skills.

Conversely, I know of many TMAs who have a very poor opinion of CKD. After one TKD workout, one of the black belts said to me, "Now I know you did Choi for a long time, but to be honest, it's a bit crap." I had to correct him immediately, as I certainly didn't agree with him. It turned out he had visited a CKD school (one whose poor standards I am quite familar with), and formed an opinion based on that.


Despite Captain Moomoo`s ( will call him CM now ) assertion that there is " no harm " ( health-wise ) from the traditional styles I can say I personally KNOW FOR A FACT that people get physical injuries OVER TIME when doing the lock-outs AND THESE INJURIES ARE PERMANENT unless one does something about it


This has already been responded to by many members, and so it's quite clear that most TMA practitioners no longer practice damaging techniques, thanks to the contributions of modern sports science.


About the grading fees + system : Firstly I do not feel that £20 is too much for a grading . You can hardly go out "on the town " with that ; if you cannot sacrifice half the cost of a meal for two in a restaurant then perhaps you do not value a grading.


Well it depends, as "too much" is always subjective, as well as being context dependent. For an individual who can afford to go out "on the town", I agree, it's nothing. But I have many students who I know cannot afford this because of their own financial circumstances. For the record, I still charge £20 per grading, as I believe it is pretty much the norm in the UK martial arts industry today. My problem was not so much the cost per individual grading, but more the fact that the gradings were too frequent (once every two months), and that they were not justified as the only new material taught was a 90 degree turn in the current pattern. Couple that with 18 belts before 1st degree black belt (which costs £110), followed by another 9 gradings (£20 each) before 2nd degree black belt (£150), and I believe most will agree that altogether, this is far too expensive.

Now don't get me wrong - there's nothing wrong in making money. In fact, I believe that if you're gonna do it, try to make as much money as you possibly can. But do it legitimately, and make sure you deliver on the service! I do not believe that £20 for a turn is good value for money.


I can understand that CM feels bitter about having been expelled - but I am afraid it was your own doing. You cannot just walk into a martial art system and demand that they change things according to YOUR individual needs without even awaiting feedback from the WHOLE community you are in ( you were not the only teacher in CKD ) - you cannot change the grading system which was devised by Grandmaster Choi just because you decided that this SHOULD be the case.


I agree! In fact as soon as I decided to hold my own grading based on an abbreviated set of belts, I was quite sure that I would not be with CKD for much longer...


I know that Grandmaster Choi is not only a great martial artist ( in fact he is a legend in his own life-time ) he is also a FANTASTIC HUMAN BEING ! In other words : if you saw the " error of your ways " and appologized to The Grandmaster for your willfull behaviour I have no doubt that he would welcome you back to ( what The Grandmaster calls ) " The Choi Kwang Do Family " .


Hmmm, there was another instructor that suggested I write to Grandmaster Choi to apologise for my "willful behaviour". In the end I decided against this as I did not believe I had done anything wrong, and I still stand by every single one of my actions today. I did what I did in the best interests of the development of my students, my school, and myself too. (BTW, I am very happy where I am now, and have no desire to return to CKD, even if I could.) I did however still write to Grandmaster Choi, not to apologise, but to explain (very politely!), the reasons for my actions. I never did receive a reply, or even an acknowledgement of receipt.


Different people look for different things : I do not judge a martial " artist" by how high he can do a jumping kick - FOR THE STREET YOU NEED POWER AND SPEED - and CKD has all the requirements for that.


Neither do I. My only wish was that people who practice CKD were good at what they did. In my opinion the vast majority are not.


Yes , CM - I believe you MAY have offended many CKD practitioners out there


Does this mean I was wrong to post my thoughts and feelings on this forum?

Regards,
Captain Moo Moo

[Scaramouch]

Captain Moo Moo, like your style !!.............even though I currently practise CKD.

I think some CKD clubs in the UK will seriously have to strike a better balance between the commercial demands of themselves and the CKDMAI and delivering a high quality MA that is both "effective" and produces grades of a consistent standard.

Fortunately the CKD club where I train has a lot of students with previous MA experience and there is a good "spirit" in the club. We also do free sparring, on top of the standard CKD syllabus.

Otherwise, thought your comments were pretty much spot-on.

[47Ronin]

"Despite Captain Moomoo`s ( will call him CM now ) assertion that there is " no harm " ( health-wise ) from the traditional styles I can say I personally KNOW FOR A FACT that people get physical injuries OVER TIME when doing the lock-outs AND THESE INJURIES ARE PERMANENT unless one does something about it"

Despite all these rumors I study traditional Uechi Karate and so far the only injury I have sustained in all my training time with them is a bad thumb with broken ligaments, BUT it was from boxing. So my real question is if I am going to have such "injuries" when will I have them? And can some one tell me some one they know that this has happened to and give me actual proof or a contact number?

quote:
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About the grading fees + system : Firstly I do not feel that £20 is too much for a grading . You can hardly go out "on the town " with that ; if you cannot sacrifice half the cost of a meal for two in a restaurant then perhaps you do not value a grading.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

When I was in Chun Kuk Do (which to me sounds like a cousin style to choi) the gradings would start at 30 $ to 50 $ and then up to 400$ for Dan testings; I am 17 years old and do not get 400$ so easy and even when I test what happens if I fail? That means I have to save up money again on top of other payments.
The school I am at now does not require such silly fee's and is much better quality.

" Does this mean I was wrong to post my thoughts and feelings on this forum?"

In my opinion, NO. I guess my over all post is about that Choi Kwang Do is not the only system that has these things going on and I am glad some one like you is speaking up on this.

I am on your side ;).

-Max

[Cain]

I am on your side. ;)

Hehe me too :D

Just err....exhausted myself in the CKD thread in the past ;)

|Cain|

[amiller127]

I can't honestly answer that question. However, just because there are some TKD practitioners who choose to change over to CKD, doesn't mean that CKD is a superior style (which you clearly suggest in all your posts). There may in fact be any number of other factors influencing the decision of these instructors, many of which are more business oriented than martial art oriented.

If it was purely business oriented, would they turn to CKD with its "high" fees that you quote later on? Wouldnt it be better for a business minded master instructor to set up his own break away TKD organisation and charge his students fees directly, rather than get a far smaller percentage of the CKD rebate system.



For example, did you know, that there are some WTF-TKD schools that do not teach sparring in any form whatsoever, despite the fact that it is a huge part of the WTF? This is because many people are afraid of sparring, and therefore some instructors fear losing students because of this. CKD has no sparring whatsoever as part of its syllabus. In fact, when discussing the absence of sparring in CKD with a very senior officer of the now disbanded United Kingdom CKD Association (UKCA), I was told that this was because it was felt that sparring would "damage sales".

Wow, there are TKD classes that dont teach sparring. When have we in CKD ever suggested that ALL TKD schools spar. The sparring comment is only aimed at schools that do this, not those that dont practice it. I have never read any article or promotion of CKD that say "all traditional martial arts spar". We dont say that because its and incorrect thing to say.

As for when you were discussing sparring with a senior CKD Officer, of course if we brought in sparring it would damage our sales. Its one of the things that we promote in CKD. You come to us, you dont have to worry about competitions. So if we all of a sudden changed that we would lose those students. But is that the only reason that this "senior" person in the UKCA brought up. Funnily enough i speak to the same "senior" ukca officers that you do and they all seem to have more than that one reason for not wanting sparring taught. I have many reasons that I dont want to see sparring in CKD. I listed them on my web site. I also think that it isnt all negative, but i feel for the students it is far more beneficial to not spar.

Another possible reason could be the fact that CKD instructors whose students also go on to become instructors, receive a percentage of all the money that is generated through memberships and gradings from the schools of those 'child' instructors. This scheme operates to a depth of up to 3 or 4 levels, thereby creating potential for great earning with no additional effort. Seeing as many of the instructors who have changed over are very senior, it is quite conceivable that they already have a large base of instructors under them, which means they immediately benefit from the above scheme.

Covered a bit of this earlier. Why come to CKD and get a rebate when you can open your own school. Also, in the UK as the class sizes are quite small it doesnt as yet give you all that much money per year. It is nice though to get a cheque for a few hundred - thousand pounds simply as a recognition of the work you have put into bringing on the art.

DO YOU REALLY THINK that the CKD instructors are bringing on instructors because of the rebate system. Do you think that is why Mr Banfield passed you as a CI? Of course not. I only have 1 school under the rebate system, im a poor student. Have I fast tracked and promoted students to instructor to take advantage of this? OF COURSE NOT. Neither have any of your collegues in London as far as i know. You may get one or two people in an organisation who would take advantage of that, but you would get them in any other organisation too. Its too easy to turn the rebate system around to attack the integrity of CKD instructors. Besides, if you were to rush an instructor and they couldnt teach CKD then a lot more of their students would fail. I know that people have failed in london, just as they have in Wales. Does it make sense to make a sub standard instructor who cant teach the art, just to get rebate money that you wont recieve as the student failed?


I also know of many instructors from other styles who were offered a promotion to the next Dan-rank if they converted over to CKD.

Cant say i have heard of this. Im not saying that it hasnt happened, just saying that i have NEVER seen it done. Also, if this was true how come Master Pereira was a 4th Dan TKD, came to CKD and was a 4th Dan for so many years? How come this never happened with others who have recently crossed over. The people we now have in Birmingham etc. Or even the masters in Kansas?

I'm not saying that the above are THE reasons why all the instructors that Mr Allison mentions have changed over to CKD, but am simply presenting them as viable alternatives to his suggestion that they changed over because CKD is superior in terms of its health benefits and self-defence skills.

The majority of people who have been shown CKD and converted over have done so after being demonstrated the art. They are not told about the rebate system or advancing the ranks. They are told that they can keep their current rank if they convert though.

Conversely, I know of many TMAs who have a very poor opinion of CKD. After one TKD workout, one of the black belts said to me, "Now I know you did Choi for a long time, but to be honest, it's a bit crap." I had to correct him immediately, as I certainly didn't agree with him. It turned out he had visited a CKD school (one whose poor standards I am quite familar with), and formed an opinion based on that.

I have been to poorly run TKD classes and my thought of those classess were that they were crap. Not because of the art, but becasue of the instructor. So what. Also, some people just cant get our ideas into their head. If they cannot understand the CKD concepts then we wish them good day and leave it at that.


Well it depends, as "too much" is always subjective, as well as being context dependent. For an individual who can afford to go out "on the town", I agree, it's nothing. But I have many students who I know cannot afford this because of their own financial circumstances. For the record, I still charge £20 per grading, as I believe it is pretty much the norm in the UK martial arts industry today. My problem was not so much the cost per individual grading, but more the fact that the gradings were too frequent (once every two months), and that they were not justified as the only new material taught was a 90 degree turn in the current pattern. Couple that with 18 belts before 1st degree black belt (which costs £110), followed by another 9 gradings (£20 each) before 2nd degree black belt (£150), and I believe most will agree that altogether, this is far too expensive.

Now don't get me wrong - there's nothing wrong in making money. In fact, I believe that if you're gonna do it, try to make as much money as you possibly can. But do it legitimately, and make sure you deliver on the service! I do not believe that £20 for a turn is good value for money.

The only different material taught isnt just a 90 degree turn.
The kick is different, the speed drill is different the hand technique is different. The system is designed to slow the pace of students down a little. Rather than overload them and make substandard student (which seems to be your little bugbear). They progressivly practice their techniques over a period of 6 months. taught side kick at yellow, side kick is in the speed drill at gold and the pattern at orange. So over at least 6 gradings they are practicing their techniques.
Also, since they taught the "new" system with tags (im old school ckd, i still think of it as the new system) they have added much more for the students to learn. I got to Il Dan in CKD when they switched over. Then i had to learn all of the new kicks and punches that were originally kept for the higher dans. Took me a little while to catch up i can tell you.
So compared to the old system, which taught less and didnt produce any better student, how is the new system worse.

Hmmm, there was another instructor that suggested I write to Grandmaster Choi to apologise for my "willful behaviour". In the end I decided against this as I did not believe I had done anything wrong, and I still stand by every single one of my actions today. I did what I did in the best interests of the development of my students, my school, and myself too. (BTW, I am very happy where I am now, and have no desire to return to CKD, even if I could.) I did however still write to Grandmaster Choi, not to apologise, but to explain (very politely!), the reasons for my actions. I never did receive a reply, or even an acknowledgement of receipt.

Maybe the fact that GMC has travelled so much this year that he has hardly been in Atlanta may have something to do with it. Also, it may be that your letter was worded in such a way that they felt that there was no need to send one back in reply? I dont know. I dont have all of my e mails replied to, but when i speak to GMC he usually asks me about them and how im doing.


My only wish was that people who practice CKD were good at what they did. In my opinion the vast majority are not.


Vast majority? How much as a percentage would you put that. Also how much of this VAST MAJORITY have you seen? I dont remember hearing of you coming to Wales and training with us. Maybe you have been to every school in Scotland, or the UK? Have you visited every class in Atlanta?

The point that im getting at is that you are judging on a limited sample of students that you have met. While they may be a large sample, they are by no means the majority and are of a narrow sample base of mainly London students. If you were so annoyed by your own students skills, why didnt you hold them back? Also, you are basing your comments on the template that you have of how CKD students should be.

I recently heard Dave Kovar say that "if you keep having problems with so many people, maybe the problem lies within yourself"
May be worth thinking about?


Does this mean I was wrong to post my thoughts and feelings on this forum?

Hell no. Its best to post your thoughts and feelings into this forum. That is what its for. It gets a debate going and people get to see both points of view. A point and counter point. Its great and can help improve the knowledge of others. Feel free to post more
:D

[Scaramouch]

Some well made points amiller127. However………

I don’t want to open up old wounds on the subject of sparring (see the “mammoth” CKD thread), or the lack of it in the CKD syllabus but WHY to some people in CKD see it as a such a bad thing for adult students? May be for kids its not a good idea until say over 14. But by “sparring”, my understanding of the term is not sparring in order to score points or to win trophies and medals - but semi-contact sparring with light pads and gum shields (to avoid injury) so that student get used to the feeling of using their techniques in a more spontaneous, but uncompetitive way (as opposed to the standard defence drills).

Your CKD contemporary, Stuart Murray (3rd degree CKD) also seems to see the benefit of sparring as he has been training and “sparring” in Japan at the Nagasaki gym of Yoshinori Nishi with Nicolin Fiordo, a professional Muay Thai boxer. See article -

http://iclanarkshire.icnetwork.co.uk/sport/eastkilbride/content_objectid=13450262_method=full_siteid=50144 _headline=-Black-and-blue---what-a-swell-holiday-for-martial-arts-fan-name_page.html

I was really pleased to see somone from CKD doing this!

Sorry, but I also disagree on the large number of CKD Kup grades. A couple of reasons here (apart from the extra cost):

- My belief was that the kup or kyu (pre-black grade) belt system originated in Japanese MAs and was adopted by TKD, and subsequently CKD. The main reason for the Kup belts was to: firstly acknowledge rank at levels lower than 1st Degree Black and secondly to allow students to attend other schools and their new instructor would know what standard they were. NOT as “rewards” for attending classes for 2 months.

- in order to justify them, as you explain, more advanced techniques are introduced sooner to lower grades. Is this a good thing? IMO its best to establish solid, basic techniques before progressing too quickly to more advanced techniques/combinations.

- CKD is very child friendly and focuses on achievement and building confidence without a competitive environment, which is great. However, the frequency of the gradings means that it a child goes on a 2 week family holiday or falls sick then the frequency of the gradings means that that child could conceivably miss the next grading based on attendance whilst all of their peers achieve a grade. Although not consciously meant, this can have a demoralising impact on young children. Alternatively, if they were to grade every 3-4 months as with the “old” system, a week off training here or there is less likely to have a detrimental impact on their ability and they could still grade.

Please remember I am pro-CKD. Its just, after having a background in other MAs I have seen different ways of teaching and therefore, I have opinions other than “the gospel” according to CKDMAI.

[amiller127]

I will tell you why im against sparring. Ignoring the negative transfer aspect, i will tell you a story of what happened in my class when I let some of my black belts try some free sparring in class.

They had been asking me if they could try it. No matter what I said they wanted to see what it was like. So I treated them like the adults that they were and allowed them to have a go.

The result was they started circling each other, attacking backwards and forwards. And what struck me quite powerfully was that by letting them do this, they didnt want to back down. They didnt want to try and de escalate the situation. Didnt look for ways out of the fight, and escape route or such. They simply circled, trying to outmanouver each other.

I want to teach my students to look at EVERY way possible to avoid a fight. Even if it means them seeing an opening where they can run away whilst fighting and taking that opening.

Another thing I dont like about it is that it brings out that macho pride in some people. When they start feeling like they are going to lose then they get more frustrated and aggressive. It causes bad feelings between students and it also damages a persons confidence. Why do that, when im teaching people this art to build their confidence.

You see, I have allowed some of my students to do free sparring after class. I have tried it myself. And after experiencing it for a while the conclusion i came to was that although there may be some benefits in it, there are far more negative aspects if you are only training for self defence.

I personaly now like to work on building up my students reactions. Working on getting them to be able to angle off, counter attack as quickly as possible when they are attacked. I also like to build in drills which kick in a bit of fear, but in a controlled way.

There are ways of making the CKD drills quite realistic and beneficial. You dont need to do the sparring. It doesnt give enough benefits to the self defence in my opinion and it can damage the confidence of those who just cannot seem to win when sparring.

As for Stuart Murrey, i know how he feels on the subject. Im quite friendly with him. I like to think that all of us CKD instructors have our own minds and that it is good for us to go out and experience other aspects ourselves. Because then we can learn ourselves and make a decision based on our own opinions, not the ones of our organisation. The thing is though. The more i experience these things, the more in line my way of thinking has gone with Grandmaster Choi.

My instructor had done other arts to various degrees before joining CKD. He always taught me to question why we do something and not just follow it blindly, because no one is perfect. Not even Grandmaster Choi. But what I have found is that when it comes to martial arts, self defence and health, I know of no other person who is so knowlegable and has thought EVERY aspect through as many times as possible.

Thats why I stay in CKD. Because GMC isnt happy to let the art go stagnant. He will keep mulling the art over, trying to make it better where possible. If something is found to be better, a new system or method, then we adapt it into out syllabus.

As for the belts. I dont look at belts as a "reward" for training for a set period of time. I dont know of any instructor in the UK who would consider them in that way. I personnaly only enter students when I know that they have the experience needed to pass at a good standard. I also adjust that standard depending on their situation. When I have had to turn students away from a grading they have always told me that they feel that they were not ready. In fact, my students generally tell me themselves if they feel that they dont feel up to standard on a certain aspect and that they would like more time to practice. Not many people feel this way as my instructors have usually prepared them more than adequatley for their grading.

As for not spending enough time working on their techniques, i will give you an example. The front kick. It is taught at white belt. You will practice ti for that grading. You then have it in the pattern for yellow belt and yellow senior. It is also in the speed drill in that level. It is also in the gold belt pattern and gold senior. So for an entire year the students have to practice their front kick at every grading apart from the white senior one. This is repeated throughout the syllabaus with every technique.

Side kick is taught at yellow and yellow senior. It is in the speed drill for gold and gold senior and in the patterns of orange and green belts, junior and senior. Again, a year (in fact over) of practicing the technique in all of your gradings. So i feel, that the way we have the system now, we practice the techniques over and over. We also introduce new techniques to keep it interesting, because everyone but the most diehard will get bored and move on without that little bit extra to learn and challenge them.

Im not saying that the system is perfect. It isnt. But it has been very well thought out when you actually sit down and consider it. I didnt orignally like the new system with the junior and senior tags. I felt it would be better to wait 4 months between gradings and just jump a solid colour. Now after seeing why it has been set out the way it is, im really happy about it. It does help develop students better than the old way did.

Hope thats cleared up for you where im coming from. Im not interested in the "gospel" according to CKDMAI. But after having enough experience of hearing GMC's reasons and thinking about why he has done certain things, i can see exactly why he has done it. And I have yet to see him do anything that has made me feel that he has weakened the benefits of CKD as a Self Defence system in any way.

[Scaramouch]

Thanks for your very thorough reply to my post. Some excellent points.

Just going back to the sparring though, you have reached your conclusions based on your own experiences and you have made a choice. Don't you think other CKD practitioners should be able to make such a choice and at aleast be given the opportunity to spar and make up their own minds?

[amiller127]

Like i said in my post. I have allowed my students to spar. Not as part of the class but after it had finished. It wasnt a structured thing as such, just something that they could do to get a feel for it. After those sessions and after discussing why we dont do sparring as part of the curriculum, my students agreed that they would rather not do it.

I dont think that CKDMAI has any problems with instructors trying sparring. They also dont mind CKD students sparring or entering competitions. But they cannot do it as part of the CKD lesson. After class perhaps, they may not mind it if you are simply doing it as something of an experiment. But they dont want it taught as curriculum as they believe, and i agree with, that it isnt as beneficial to train for self defence training.

My students have gone and tried other art. They have tried TSD, TKD etc. They have tried the sparring section. Some of them have enjoyed it as they like the competition element. But none of them have said that they feel it enhances their self defence skills. I dont want my students following me blindly, they are free to experience other things and make up their own minds. But i dont feel that it is a neccassery part of the curriculum and CKD is better off without it.

[captainmoomoo]

Wouldnt it be better for a business minded master instructor to set up his own break away TKD organisation and charge his students fees directly, rather than get a far smaller percentage of the CKD rebate system.

Like I had stated earlier, the reasons I listed may/may not be those instructors' motivation for switching over. I was simply saying that they are alternatives to the suggested one that CKD is a superior art.



Wow, there are TKD classes that dont teach sparring. When have we in CKD ever suggested that ALL TKD schools spar. The sparring comment is only aimed at schools that do this, not those that dont practice it. I have never read any article or promotion of CKD that say "all traditional martial arts spar". We dont say that because its and incorrect thing to say.

You miss my point. I never suggested that CKD says all TKD schools spar. My point was, quite simply, that there are some TKD schools that have totally elimated sparring to avoid risking a loss of 'sales'.



But is that the only reason that this "senior" person in the UKCA brought up.

Yes. This senior officer sparred full contact regularly at the time, using a full complement of body armour. When I asked him about incurring injuries, he insisted that this was utter nonsense.



Why come to CKD and get a rebate when you can open your own school. Also, in the UK as the class sizes are quite small it doesnt as yet give you all that much money per year.

You need to check out some of the schools in the London region - they are 'raking' it in...



DO YOU REALLY THINK that the CKD instructors are bringing on instructors because of the rebate system.

Again, you misunderstand me. I was only suggesting that it is a nice little incentive for instructors to produce more black belt instructors. There is nothing wrong with that.



Do you think that is why Mr Banfield passed you as a CI?

No, the rebate scheme did not exist at the time.



Have I fast tracked and promoted students to instructor to take advantage of this? OF COURSE NOT. Neither have any of your collegues in London as far as i know.

You assume too much.



Besides, if you were to rush an instructor and they couldnt teach CKD then a lot more of their students would fail. I know that people have failed in london, just as they have in Wales.

Yes, I do take pride in the fact that I pretty much started the (London) trend of failing mediocre students. The first ever student I ever heard of failing in CKD, was one that I had failed myself. Let us just say that the other examiners were not impressed with my actions. Every grading thereafter, I would continue to fail students who were simply not up to scratch - however, this did require me to pluck up a great amount of courage in order to do so. But from what you say, it seems as if failing mediocre students is catching on.



Does it make sense to make a sub standard instructor who cant teach the art

It doesn't, but it certainly seems to be rampant in CKD.



The only different material taught isnt just a 90 degree turn.
The kick is different, the speed drill is different the hand technique is different.

The punch is the same, and so is the kick. The only difference is whether the technique is executed from the front or the rear. As for the speed drill, here's how it works (for those who don't know): there are two basic types in the coloured belt syllabus. Speed drill A - leading punch, rear punch, weave, rear punch, rear kick. Speed drill B - leading punch, leading punch, weave, leading punch, rear punch, rear kick. Junior (solid colour belt) students learn speed drill A, while senior (solid colour belt, plus black stripe) learn speed drill B. Speed drills are taught from yellow belt level. The first speed drill to be executed at this level is speed drill A + front kick. When the student progresses to yellow belt senior, they learn speed drill B with front kick. When the student progresses to Gold belt, they move back to speed drill A, but now with side kick, and so on and so forth.

Now don't get me wrong - there's nothing wrong in repetition. It's the only secret to becoming a martial arts master. I'm just saying it's unneccessary to charge for it. Instead of grading every two months, grade every three or four months, so that the student has had a chance to become relatively proficient at the techniques for that level - including both rear and leading kicks and punches, and both speed drills A and B.



Vast majority? How much as a percentage would you put that. Also how much of this VAST MAJORITY have you seen? I dont remember hearing of you coming to Wales and training with us.

Fair point. I have however seen you and some of your colleagues when you have come down to train with us...



If you were so annoyed by your own students skills, why didnt you hold them back?

What makes you think I was so annoyed by my own students? And I have always held them back when I have seen fit.



Im not saying that the system is perfect. It isnt. But it has been very well thought out when you actually sit down and consider it.

I agree: in all the styles I have tried, the CKD syllabus is right up there with some of the most well organised ones. I think the way it builds up in a systematic way is excellent. I just don't like the fact that it is a little TOO well organised - i.e. it is broken down so much, resulting in 18 belts.



I recently heard Dave Kovar say that "if you keep having problems with so many people, maybe the problem lies within yourself"

Yeah, I kinda realised this too, but in a different way. It was after a discussion I had with Master Perreira, concerning the poor standard in CKD, as well as the lack of certain drills such as sparring. He said , quite rightly, that we simply don't do such things in CKD. It hit me then, that I was looking for something in the wrong place, as what I wanted from martial arts, I would never find in CKD.



You see, I have allowed some of my students to do free sparring after class. I have tried it myself. And after experiencing it for a while the conclusion i came to was that although there may be some benefits in it, there are far more negative aspects if you are only training for self defence.

Hmmm, so you base your judgement of sparring on your own very limited experience of it. A bit like going to one or two classes of Karate/TKD and then deciding it's a "bit crap". What do you think those people who have extensive experience of sparring would say about it if we asked them?



I have allowed my students to spar. Not as part of the class but after it had finished. It wasnt a structured thing as such, just something that they could do to get a feel for it.

That is precisely the problem - you have allowed them to spar. You have not TAUGHT them to spar. There is a technique to sparring - it cannot be done haphazardly, just throwing kicks and punches whenever one feels like it. It is no wonder your students felt uncomfortable/frustrated sparring - they didn't know how to, because they've never done it before.

I would post my experience of sparring, going into it as a CKD 2nd degree black belt for the first time. But it's a whole different subject. Maybe I'll start another thread...

[Scaramouch]

Captain moo moo, again an “entertaining” dialogue.

In Mr Miller’s defence, however, I would to point out that at least he has tried sparring in addition to trying to introduce a little fear into his lessons – which I respect. More than some CKD instructors in SE England, if your views are correct.

I agree that charging for 18 kup grades is a bit excessive. I know it will never happen, but may be a better idea would have been hold formal gradings for the changes in belt colour and to allow the club instructors to award the senior levels at no cost (apart from the new belt).

[Kwajman]

Captain, a good defense of your position.

[amiller127]

Originally posted by captainmoomoo
Like I had stated earlier, the reasons I listed may/may not be those instructors' motivation for switching over. I was simply saying that they are alternatives to the suggested one that CKD is a superior art.

And i was simply saying that i felt that it was a very week reason for a master instructor who is comfortable in another art to come to CKD, mearly for moetery gain.



You miss my point. I never suggested that CKD says all TKD schools spar. My point was, quite simply, that there are some TKD schools that have totally elimated sparring to avoid risking a loss of 'sales'.


No, but you brought up the fact to say that when you were discussing something completley off topic. You were talking about why some TMA people may want to turn to CKD and then say "By the way, in WTF TKD some of the schools dont spar". Which kind seemed like an attempt at having a go at a CKD instructor because you seemed to presume that in his opinon every TKD school does sparring. Thats the way i read it. Hence the little comment on it.



Yes. This senior officer sparred full contact regularly at the time, using a full complement of body armour. When I asked him about incurring injuries, he insisted that this was utter nonsense.


Funnily enough, i recently had the occasion to talk to many of the CKD Senior UKCA officers. Funnily enough that same subject came up and none of them seemed to have that opinion in front of me. Its not as if im going to go running my mouth off saying to HQ that a CKD instructor feels that sparring is beneficial. So why didnt they mention it?

Also you seem to be stuck on the fact that our only belief is that a person can get injured doing sparring, whether it is semi contact or not. Whoever told you that you dont risk injury doing full contact sparring is off their head. Of course you risk injury, otherwise, why the hell are they padding up to do it. There is a good possibility of getting injured in heavy full contact sparring and i dont think that there are many people on this forum who wouldnt agree with that. What they would disagree on is my opinion and the general opinion of CKD instructors as to how beneficial it is for self defence.

But injury isnt the only reason we dont feel that its very beneficial. It can knock down a students confidence if they find that constantly get beaten. It isnt in my opinion self defence as you know who your attacker is and know certain strengths and weaknesses. Thus it turn into a competition of who can beat their opponent. It DOES give you a feel for adrenalin and the fact that someone is attacking you, BUT that can be reproduced in class without the actual sparring. You also know that you are bound by certain rules and safety nets in a sparring session and wont allow you to think of using foul means as well as fair to defend yourself. Neither does sparring make you think of other options, such as running away the second you see an opportunity and it can encourage you to want to stick out a fight longer than you really need to in order for you to overcome your opponent. Finally, psychologically you are already prepared for the fight before it starts when you are sparring. A lot of attacks I have seen are spontaeneous and as such the person attacked is not anywhere near as prepared to defend themselves as they would feel in class. It can be a false sense of confidence. Far better to try and incororate drills that work on that lack of preparedness than spar.

NOTICE that i say it CAN in most of those. Will this happen with every student? NO. But does it in my opinion reinforce these attitudes in your students. In my opinion it can. And it may be only a tiny percentage of students who react to it that way, but i would rather have 100% of my students looking for options of getting out of a fight than have 1% ready to stand and fight until they have overcome their opponent.

And as I have said before many times. I DO SEE SOME BENEFITS FOR SPARRING. But i dont feel that the benefits of doing so outweigh the benefits of not doing so. There is something positive from anything you do in life, doesnt mean that you have to do it.




You need to check out some of the schools in the London region - they are 'raking' it in...


Who is raking it in in London with the rebate system. At the moment Mr Harper, as far as I am aware does not have a school under him in the rebate. Mr Banfield, your instructor does have a few under his belt, im not sure how much. Mr Johal may have 1 or 2. Vince Cassar has 2 under his belt and Mr Brophy has a lot of schools under his belt and is probably making a decent amount for the rebate.

So, in the UK. As far as I am aware. There are only 2 instructors who are making significant amounts from the rebate system. There are not many others. There are a few making a couple of hundred pounds to thousand pounds a year, here and there, but not enough so that you can say to other instructors "Look at how much money you get if you make sub standard instructors and open other schools"



Again, you misunderstand me. I was only suggesting that it is a nice little incentive for instructors to produce more black belt instructors. There is nothing wrong with that.


Yes but your posts have been implying that there are too many substandard students and isntructors in CKD. Its quite easy to then take your comment in a context where it is seen as a "bribe" to rush people into being instructors.


No, the rebate scheme did not exist at the time.


I know that it didnt. Was mearly being facetious.


You assume too much.

Actually, again being facetious about it. Did so to illistrate how poor your alternative reasons for other MA joining CKD.



I heard about people failing in CKD in the UK well before i was even near black belt. My old regional director had failed a few students for not being good enough. Peter Wake had also failed a few people for not being good enough and also failed a welsh student who went for their Assistant Instructor, because he felt that they were not good enough. I know of a guy who failed his 3rd Dan out in Atlanta, but not because he wasnt able to perform, but because of his behaviour. It wasnt felt that the attitude he had was suitable for a 3rd Dan CI who is meant to be an example (he was failed for starting fights when out in atlanta after drinking too much). I know Mr Harper has failed people in the past and has also come VERY close to failing 1 or 2 welsh students. I know that the Welsh Exam panel has come VERY close to failing the occasional student in the past. I have also recently attended a Black Belt testing in London where there were 1 or 2 poor performances and the students were marked down accordingly. They were not bad enough to fail, but they barely scraped through.

What im trying to say is that I have been in CKD for 12 years. I have travelled to many other classes and spoken to many different CKD CI's, just as you have. I cannot say that my experiences fully match yours. I can also say that from the 1st year i trained i had heard of and met people who had failed CKD gradings and knew the policy for failure well enough (i.e. Students have to wait a set period before attempting again, improve on their failed aspects of the test and that they do not get charged to be re tested).

I also find it hard to believe that you "started" the trend of failing people in London. It has been done in the past before you or i started training. It has been done during our training and it will happen on occasion in the future. The reason there are not many failing is that teh CI's know that the students personal standard is good enough to pass, otherwise they would not be considered for entry.







It doesn't, but it certainly seems to be rampant in CKD.

How many instructors have you trained under where you consider their standard of instruction to be sub standard. If you would i would also love to know who. PM me on it if you want as i dont feel it would be fair to post it on a public forum.

I can honestly say that of the instructors currently in CKD in the UK there is only 1 that i feel is not of a good enough standard of teaching. Im not on about performance as you can teach without being able to perform the techniqies at a high level.



The punch is the same, and so is the kick. The only difference is whether the technique is executed from the front or the rear. As for the speed drill, here's how it works (for those who don't know): there are two basic types in the coloured belt syllabus. Speed drill A - leading punch, rear punch, weave, rear punch, rear kick. Speed drill B - leading punch, leading punch, weave, leading punch, rear punch, rear kick. Junior (solid colour belt) students learn speed drill A, while senior (solid colour belt, plus black stripe) learn speed drill B. Speed drills are taught from yellow belt level. The first speed drill to be executed at this level is speed drill A + front kick. When the student progresses to yellow belt senior, they learn speed drill B with front kick. When the student progresses to Gold belt, they move back to speed drill A, but now with side kick, and so on and so forth.


Yes it is the same, front then rear. BUT it is still an improvement on what we used to do. We did used to have less techniques. They were practiced a lot less and were not always used in the next grading. Now they get to repeatedly practice, improve on and be tested on new techniques, recent techniques and old techniques. Which is the a very good way to ensure a good level of skill if used correctly.

On a different note, you had better hope Master P doesnt see that you have listed parts of the CKD syllabus. He may sue you for copyright violation

Now don't get me wrong - there's nothing wrong in repetition. It's the only secret to becoming a martial arts master. I'm just saying it's unneccessary to charge for it. Instead of grading every two months, grade every three or four months, so that the student has had a chance to become relatively proficient at the techniques for that level - including both rear and leading kicks and punches, and both speed drills A and B.


Fair point. I have however seen you and some of your colleagues when you have come down to train with us...

HOW MANY WELSH CKD PEOPLE HAVE YOU SEEN TRAIN? Answer, not many. I have never heard anyone say anything bad about the technical ability of the people that I have taken down with me to train and also test in other school. The ones that I have taken down have generally been of a very good standard and some good, some average. Everyone has faults. Mine are in my kicks. They are not up to a standard where i am happy with them, BUT they are at a standard where no one else has a big problem with them.

I have also seen you train. You have a talent for the martial arts, BUT there are also aspects of your techniques that I have seen where you needed to improve. But thats just it, everyone needs to improve and as long as they are pushing themselves to do so then that is the best thing and should be rewarded and recognised.



What makes you think I was so annoyed by my own students? And I have always held them back when I have seen fit.


Good for you. So do the majority of other instructors I have met with, so why should you be so judgmental of them.


I agree: in all the styles I have tried, the CKD syllabus is right up there with some of the most well organised ones. I think the way it builds up in a systematic way is excellent. I just don't like the fact that it is a little TOO well organised - i.e. it is broken down so much, resulting in 18 belts.


Well that is a matter of opinion. I can see exactly where you are coming from on that one, BUT, if i remember correctly they also then reduced the prices of the gradings initially from £10 to £6. It has gone back up, but what hasnt in the past 6-7 years.



Yeah, I kinda realised this too, but in a different way. It was after a discussion I had with Master Perreira, concerning the poor standard in CKD, as well as the lack of certain drills such as sparring. He said , quite rightly, that we simply don't do such things in CKD. It hit me then, that I was looking for something in the wrong place, as what I wanted from martial arts, I would never find in CKD.


And im glad that you found that it wasnt for you. Better to be happy teaching something that you believe in 100%. But why then do you not open up to the possibility that the most compelling reason for other TMA'ists that have joined CKD, has been the art itself and not the "monetery benefits" you stated. I feel that is a poor excuse for them joining. After all, didnt you join from another art initially? Didnt you say on your web site that, initially you thought CKD was poor, but after speaking to Mr Banfield you saw that it was the art to be in?



Hmmm, so you base your judgement of sparring on your own very limited experience of it. A bit like going to one or two classes of Karate/TKD and then deciding it's a "bit crap". What do you think those people who have extensive experience of sparring would say about it if we asked them?


You base your judgment on CKD in the UK on your own limited experience. It was a Fair point that you conceeded earlier. I base my judgment on attending a few TMA classes in the area. Getting in there, having a sparring session with their students and more than holding my own. Also, i have free sparred with my instructors, my closest students and others. I have done more than 1 or 2 classes and then closed my mind to it. Rather I have tried it, seen that there are benefits, but that the benefits i have seen can just as easily be replicated in the CKD drills. I have also looked at it for what i feel are its weaknesses for self defence and have listed them. Its not something I have simply decided that i dont like with no experience and am just following the lead of CKDMAI. Also think of this. How much sparring did GMC, Master P, Keith Banfield, Hugh Harper and all of the other CKD instructors who came from other arts do? Why do the majority of them seem to say the same thing about sparring and why it isnt neccassery to improve your ability to defend yourself? Have they not had extensive experience of sparring? How many of them still do it now?

Also, how many CKD students or instructors would agree with your comments? How many TKD instructors would agree with mine?

At the end of the day I have a different perspective and belief to you and others who believe that sparring is amzingly beneficial for self defence and cannot be substituted.
My point is that people who are activly promoting and advocating a different ideal are so involved in it that not everyone has the ability to disentangle and see things from a different perspective. So what would be the point of polling those who have many years of sparring and asking them to agree or disagree with my comments. Go to your local conservative club and poll them on which party they think should govern :rolleyes:


That is precisely the problem - you have allowed them to spar. You have not TAUGHT them to spar. There is a technique to sparring - it cannot be done haphazardly, just throwing kicks and punches whenever one feels like it. It is no wonder your students felt uncomfortable/frustrated sparring - they didn't know how to, because they've never done it before.

Im teaching my students to defend themselves if they are attacked on the street. Im not teaching them how to win a competition fight with rules and regulations which is a different psychological thing to being attacked by surprise. Why bother teaching them that technique when I dont feel that it is the most beneficial thing. Do i not have the responsibility, just like you, to teach my students the ways that I feel is right?

But what i did was to let my students prance around and look for openings and attacking and reacting to attacks.

And for the record. It wasnt that they were all uncomfortable. Some of them did enjoy it. Most of them didnt. But what they all agreed on is my point of view that neither partner sparring was thinking in a self defence manner. They didnt look for any escape routes. When they starter their sole aim was to be able to hit their opponent as many times as possible without getting hit themselves. It didnt occur to a single one of them to try and escape while doing this sparring. THAT is my biggest bug bear on it and something i do not want 1 of my students to be conditioned too.

And a final thought for you. In all of the TMA classes in the area that I have attended and sparred in (quite a few), i did not once have any kind of instruction apart from this.

"If you are in trouble while sparring, a trick to do is turn your back on your opponent as they are not allowed to hit you in the back"

That is what i was taught by a 2nd Dan TKD instructor. No other instructions were given to me. And by the way I didnt do to badly either as i managed to use my CKD to block and counter quite well. Not saying I would do well in a competition, but i could comfortably defend myself against the students i faced.


I would post my experience of sparring, going into it as a CKD 2nd degree black belt for the first time. But it's a whole different subject. Maybe I'll start another thread...


But didnt you originally come from TKD and did you not spar before you came to CKD? If you did then it isnt exactly an experience of going into sparring directly as a CKD 2nd Dan. More like someone who did sparring, went away and then came back.

But post it online. It would be interesting to read your perspective. For some people it may click with them and they may agree with it. Others may not. But that is what this site is about. Using your own experience and knowledge to help others make the right decisions for themselves.

Pil Sung

[amiller127]

Sorry everyone for such a long post before. Had to get that off of my chest!

[Scaramouch]

A VERY comprehensive, but good reply amiller127

We seem to all keep coming back to this issue of sparring. May be some clarification on the term “sparring” would be useful from those in the discussion? In my TMA background in karate I have done different forms of sparring (or kumite), with increasing difficulty as you progress through the syllabus. For example:

Beginners – 5-step basic sparring – both start from ready stance (Chumbi), attacker steps back with a low block then steps forward and executes a front hand punch, defender blocks the attack stepping back. This is done 5 times in total, each time the attacker steps forward and the defender steps back. The defender finally counters the 5th punch with a rear hand punch.

Intermediates – 1-step basic sparring - attacker steps back with a low block, then steps forward and executes any hand or leg technique based on their grade. Before doing so they have to announces what attack they are going to make and to what target. The defender steps back, applies the appropriate block and counters with usually 2, hand and/or leg techniques.

Advanced – 1-step semi-free sparring – both start in relaxed front stance, attacker then steps forward and executes any hand or leg technique based on their grade at full speed and power. Before doing so they have to announces what attack they are going to make and to what target. The defender applies the block appropriate (or uses body evasion - i.e. gets out the way) and counters with usually 2 hand or leg techniques (this also includes throws or footsweeps). Both attacker and defender can move freely throughout and attacks and counters are pulled back to a guard position.

Advanced - Free sparring (semi-contact) – pads, gum shields worn. Any technique, some contact allowed to the body no contact to the head. Otherwise as above.

Advanced - Competition sparring – as for free sparring but a scoring system is used, bouts refereed by senior instructor(s).

Based on these distinctions IMO in CKD we do basic and semi-free sparring, although it is called “defence drills”. The more advanced CKD defence drills probably fall somewhere in between what I would call semi-free and free sparring, since the attacker does not announce their intensions. Therefore, it is just the free and competition sparring which is not done – reasons for this thoroughly discussed by amiller127.

Therefore, is it true to say in CKD they do not spar? Or is it more correct to say that they DO spar (called defence drills) but that they do not do free or competition sparring?

[Tosh]

Originally posted by amiller127


"If you are in trouble while sparring, a trick to do is turn your back on your opponent as they are not allowed to hit you in the back"

That is what i was taught by a 2nd Dan TKD instructor. No other instructions were given to me.

*cough* but as we all know thatjust because someone wears a black belt does not mean to say they know what they are talking about. TKD sparring or otherwise.

A good ref would punish you for turning away and issue a warning.

I agree with Saramouche's point about there being different sparring drills which also exist in TKD. ALthough IMO opiino they are not SD drills they merely teach the students about range and choice of defending/attacking tool.

I have to agree with amiller127 that sparring is not for everybody, and if it is just 'practised' instead of proper 'instruction' given then some of the facets he discussed may arise.

However, I fail to see how no matter how good your drills could be how they can ever be a replacment for free sparring. Surely an argument is that is a student knows his technique is not that good (through free sparring others and being defeated) they are more likely to run or find an escape route in a "live" situation? Rather than a student avioding any form of testing thier techniques except for pre arranged drills, and then not truly knowing what facing someone (sometimes you get no option) is like.

This is of course from a point of view that has never seen these drills, but I get the feeling that in order to make them truly effective are you not courting free sparring???

[OLDLilBunnyRabbit]

Well...we do have defense drills...

Level one - target punching, no contact
Level two - target punching with blocking at a slow controlled pace
Level three - punching and kicking with blocking in a straight line at a slow controlled pace.
Level four - level three but free-moving around the available space

Of course, in these one person is attacking and the other is just blocking until you switch, so I personally wouldn't class it as sparring.

[amiller127]

Originally posted by Tosh


*cough* but as we all know thatjust because someone wears a black belt does not mean to say they know what they are talking about. TKD sparring or otherwise.

A good ref would punish you for turning away and issue a warning.

I agree that some people dont know everything just because of a black piece of cloth around their waist. But you would think that someone of a certain rank and in a position to teach students about competing would know what they are talking about.

And I only noted this, not because i felt that ALL TKD instructors think this way, but as an example of what i felt was very impractical advice for a student if they were getting overwhelmed in a self defence situation. Also i mentioned it too emphasise that of the classes that i had attended and sparred in, this was the only instruction given to me. Captain moomoo was making a comment on how my students would not have enjoyed sparring BECAUSE i had not instructed them properly. I wanted to emphasis that of the classes I had been too, my students were given more instruction than i had been given in my experience.


I agree with Saramouche's point about there being different sparring drills which also exist in TKD. ALthough IMO opiino they are not SD drills they merely teach the students about range and choice of defending/attacking tool.

And i can agree with your opinion that some of the CKD defence drills work on exactly that. For the first year, the students mainly concentrate on getting their range, working out how to throw a variety of their techniques in different situations and angles and also learn how to block a large range of attacks from multiple angles. These defence drills help build up their experience and confidence.

Then after roughly a year they move onto different defence drills, which are then aimed at getting them to react to being attacked. Blocking, dodging and then countering as quickly as possible to try to overwhelm their opponent enough to give them a chance to escape. These drills can then be modified to make the attacks unexpected and to come from various angles and work on the surprise element. These drills are FAR more beneficial in my mind than free sparring as they can prepare you to deal with an attacker and react very effectivly.


However, I fail to see how no matter how good your drills could be how they can ever be a replacment for free sparring. Surely an argument is that is a student knows his technique is not that good (through free sparring others and being defeated) they are more likely to run or find an escape route in a "live" situation? Rather than a student avioding any form of testing thier techniques except for pre arranged drills, and then not truly knowing what facing someone (sometimes you get no option) is like.

Ok so what your saying is basically, the students who know that they are no good at sparring are going to lead their lifes dealing with a lack of confidence when they are attacked and thus will be more sucseptable to looking to avoid confrontation at all costs.

The problem with that is that we are in the martial arts to give people the self confidence that they need in life. If you have no self confidence then predators will pick up on that and are more likely to attempt something on you. By doing the CKD drills in the way that i use them ALL of my students are confident in themselves that they could defend themselves in an attack. BUT, they are also not burdened by any force of habit in their minds to stay and attempt to dominate their opponent in a fight. They can defend themselves and counter until they get an opportunity to escape. Then they do their best sprinter impression and get the hell out of there.

This is of course from a point of view that has never seen these drills, but I get the feeling that in order to make them truly effective are you not courting free sparring???

No. As i have said before, I feel that it is indeed possible to learn to defend yourself without needing to resort to free sparring. The way to do it is to concentrate on what we call counter attack drills. Use them to build up the students ability to react and counter attack their opponent. Then modify it slightly to build on the surprise element and after a while they are better conditioned to defend themselves in the event of being attacked.

[tkd ajumma]

quote:
>These drills are FAR more beneficial in my mind than free >sparring as they can prepare you to deal with an attacker and >react very effectivly.

I agree with this - over the past 4 years I have learned all my taekwondo in Korea, doing 4 or 5 classes per week. In all that time we have done these attack/defence routines about 5 times in total. In that time I have done a lot of free sparring, which I really enjoy, but I feel that in a street situation against a real attacker I would be pretty pathetic. These routines (one-step sparring, or whatever other names they go by) form part of tkd grading requirements in the UK and Europe, but in Korea you are not tested on them for gradings, even at black belt. You are tested on poomsaes(forms), free sparring and breaking. I have done one taekwondo class in England, and felt my abilities were on a par with other people of the same grade in the class, until the part of the class where they did the one-step sparring. Then I was as lost as the newest white belt. I plan to try CKD when I get back to England next month, and one of my main aims is to feel I could react with more confidence against a real attacker in a real-life situation.

[Scaramouch]

VERY interesting post tkd ajumma. Intriguing to see the differences between TKD teaching styles between Korea and the UK (see thread on CKD US vs UK). In the UK we do seem to "demand" our MAs to be effective for self-defence.

amiller127 will be reading your comments with a BIG smile on his face!!

[47Ronin]

Seems no one noticed my post :(

[Tosh]

Originally posted by amiller127

Ok so what your saying is basically, the students who know that they are no good at sparring are going to lead their lifes dealing with a lack of confidence when they are attacked and thus will be more sucseptable to looking to avoid confrontation at all costs.



No, thats what you are saying. :D

I said that they are less likely to go toe-to toe with somoene if they are fully aware of thier capabilities. Self esteem and confidence are not things which are built through only drills, sparring and breaking you know. Part of the instructors goal is to empower the student in which ever way they can.

The flip side of the coin you present is a student being over confident in techniques without really ever having to face a situation where there is no other option but to fight and being over confident.

I agree it's a fine line and do agree with some of your points about sparring. Unfortunately, I think it is the only solution if you are being realistic..... but then requires someone instructing sparring. Remember this is not competition sparring, this is free sparring where all the stops are pulled out and anything goes. I for one cannot teach this because i'm not even experienced enough at it at my grade. However i know other schools that practice it regulary and with little injury. yes bumps and slips happen, but here's the over riding reality of any self defence situation.... you are going to get hit.

I see your points but don't think they warrant sparring exslusion from ANY MA syllabus.

[Shade]

Just a couple of comments from the perspective of someone very new to CKD.

Personally speaking one of the reasons why I am studying CKD is the fact that I was looking for an art without competition. Yes I desire to gain an understanding and working knowledge of how to defend myself if the need ever arises (and I seriously hope that it never ever does) and I believe that I can gain this knowledge from CKD without the need to participate in free sparring.

Some of you obviously disagree and that is fine. The most important aspect for me is that I am happy with teh way I am being taught.

I do get to practice my punches and kicks against shields and mitts, and we also do have a kind of sparring with gloves so that you can practice attacking and defending. So the punches and kicks wont connect if you miss etc but it still provides a fairly realistic experience.

Last night we had some TKD students in our class (in Sutton) and i had the fantastic opportunity of carrying out shield and mitt work with one of their black belts. Suffice to say that the punches and kicks he delivered were NOT anywhere near the same as those in CKD.

If I go to a club tonight and end up in a confrontation with someone, any punches and kicks they throw are also not going to be like anything in CKD.

But if I spar with someone who practices CKD, they are going to be throwing punches and kicks that I know and know how to block etc.

My point being that free sparring, whilst may provide you with the ability to successfully block the attacks of someone using your own art, does not necessarily provide you with the ability to defend against something you are not used to.

Not saying you shouldnt do it, but just be aware that it perhaps isnt the be all and end all.

[Tosh]

Originally posted by Shade

and we also do have a kind of sparring with gloves so that you can practice attacking and defending. So the punches and kicks wont connect if you miss etc but it still provides a fairly realistic experience.


Eh? That sound like free sparring to me!

What were you trying to hit? Each other or pads? :confused:

[Scaramouch]

Those are so-called "defence drills" which depending on your grade cover what could also be called basic step- and semi-free sparring. The attacker-defender is pre-arranged as are the range of attacking techniques - the defender is usually allowed to counter with any technique they know at their grade level.

[Shade]

Hi Tosh,

trying to hit the pads. CKD is non-contact in that you are not trying to clock your fellow practitioner around the chops as it were.

I guess the reasoning behind the exercise is to gain more understanding of the punches, kicks and blocks, but also to try and learn the distances of your attacks (which of course will differ from person to person depending on your own particular reach and balance).

Without trying to labour the point, I have no issue with you or anyone carrying out sparring and if it works for you then that is fantastic and I genuinly hope that it aids you in both bettering your art and in assisting in defending yourself if the need ever arises for real.

Purely my own opinion (which can of course be wrong and I hope I am open minded enough to recognise and act upon it if it is) but I feel that purely sparring with someone who also practices the same art, whilst giving you a greater understanding of attack and defence in your art, may not necessarily assist in a real conflict.

For example, if i WERE to spar in say CKD with a fellow student, we are both going to be throwing and blockign with the same moves. Not in the same order, but the moves are the same.

Now if i were to spar with the TKD blackbelt I trained with last night, totally different outcome. His punches and kicks are unfamiliar to me and some (maybe even all) WILL connect (and bloody hurt if the way he was nearly knocking me flying last night whilst kicking teh shield i was holding is anything to go by).

So too would be someone attacking me in a pub, a club, on a street corner, regardless of whether they practice MA or not. I should be able to block some attacks, but all the time i must be looking to run away because just one punch landing on my adams apple for example could kill me.

[Obese_Ninja]

Sir (That is to Captain Moo Moo not to any CKD sabunims) I am an assistant instructor at Mr Johal's southall school. Earlier in the thread/post/whatever. You stated that the London instructors were 'raking' it in, sir No disrespect intended as, to my knowledge and from the few times I actually saw you, you were amazing and I never heard a bad word spoken about you, even to this day when your name crops up. Maybe the London instructors are raking it in because they listen to CKDMAI on how to run a succesful dojang. Once again npo offence intended sir. Also, from my understanding of CKD, the point of belts, as was also stated earlier, not to confuse the practicioner with a compendium of techniques but to teach them how to use a few techniques, very well. As Choi Kwang Do is not competitive, does it really matter ifa blue belt is better at throwing punches than a red belt? Does it matter if their Tae Um sam jang is slower than a lower grade's? These techniques, as I have been told, work in different ways for different people, correct me if I am wrong, sabunims :) . I agree that someone with a lack of teaching and technical ability has no right taking charge of a class, but if a double grading gives them the self confidence to teach a class or to commit themselves better to training, where is the harm? I am not the best practitioner in my dojang, but I am not the worst, double gradings are reserved for assistant instructors, who frequently arrive early to do their jobs, as their is no payment system for assistants. Those without the technical knowledge are not, as was previously suggested, promoted quickly. Ok, thank you for listening to me/reading my post/whatever. Finally, if CKD, has all these flaws, do not waste your time discrediting us, the flaws of the traditional martial arts have been revealed, let CKD reveal it's faults without your help. Ok, now i'm done.
PIL SUNG!

[captainmoomoo]

Dear Obese_Ninja,

Maybe the London instructors are raking it in because they listen to CKDMAI on how to run a successful dojang.

There is nothing wrong in making lots of money. It is wrong however, when money is made in an illegitimate and unfair manner.

Also, from my understanding of CKD, the point of belts, as was also stated earlier, not to confuse the practitioner with a compendium of techniques but to teach them how to use a few techniques, very well.

Good in theory, but it hasn't worked in practice. Remember, the only difference in techniques taught between junior and senior belts, front/rear variations of the same technique. Along with a four directional version of the same combination, and a speed drill with a different hand combination (which is already learnt at previous levels). So splitting each belt colour into junior and senior stages does not really help to deliver the compendium of techniques in an easier way.

I agree that someone with a lack of teaching and technical ability has no right taking charge of a class

So why does this happen so often in CKD?

but if a double grading gives them the self confidence to teach a class or to commit themselves better to training, where is the harm?

Double gradings do not develop confidence for the purpose of teaching a class. Only teaching classes develops confidence for teaching classes. I accept that double grading a person may help to strengthen their commitment to training. However, double gradings are normally discussed prior to the grading. I.e. you speak to your instructor that you wish to do a double grading, and you agree to pay them twice the grading fee. You are not rewarded based on your actual ability (or improvement from the time that you started training). I like the way the group that I am with now does things: you apply for the next rank up in the system. Then, based on your performance (in the grading and in class), you are awarded your new rank. This can be anything from a complete fail, to a single, double, triple, even quadruple jump up. AND, you are not charged anything extra to cover the ranks that have been skipped.

As Choi Kwang Do is not competitive, does it really matter ifa blue belt is better at throwing punches than a red belt? Does it matter if their Tae Um sam jang is slower than a lower grade's? These techniques, as I have been told, work in different ways for different people

Taekwondo is also the same, in the way that CKD has people from different backgrounds, with different abilities. You are rewarded (as far as ranks are concerned) based on your effort and improvement since you first started. It is the improvement that is important. I see far more improvement in students in the Taekwondo group that I am in, than I ever saw in CKD students. I believe that this is due to higher teaching standards and stricter gradings.

Those without the technical knowledge are not, as was previously suggested, promoted quickly.

Hmmm, not in my experience...

Finally, if CKD, has all these flaws, do not waste your time discrediting us

My aim is not to discredit, but to discuss, learn, and educate. I came across this forum accidentally, and saw various arguments between CKD and "traditional" martial artists. As an ex-CKD practitioner who now studies a "traditional" martial art, I felt I was in a position to provide a unique perspective to the whole discussion.

the flaws of the traditional martial arts have been revealed, let CKD reveal it's faults without your help.

Every style has its flaws. However, CKDMAI claims that most traditional martial arts training is useless, and perpetuates such propaganda in an attempt to recruit more practitioners (watch CKD Part 2 for a demonstration of this).

to my knowledge and from the few times I actually saw you, you were amazing

Thank you for the compliment. While I was in CKD I was often complimented for my technical ability, especially my kicks. Grandmaster Choi himself has commented on my ability the few times that I met and trained with him. A year on from when I left CKD, I have improved by leaps and bounds. When I first joined my group (the London Taekwondo Academy), I had the worst kicks in the class. I had to work so hard just to keep up. Comparing my progress over the last year in Taekwondo, to my progress over nine years in CKD - I just can't help ask myself, "What if..."

Pil Sung,
Captain Moo Moo

[amiller127]

There is nothing wrong in making lots of money. It is wrong however, when money is made in an illegitimate and unfair manner.


I would agree with that statement Captain Moo. No matter what art you teach making lots of money is wrong if you make it in an illegitimate and unfair manner.

But I resent the implication that the London CKD instructors and the other CKD instructors you have visited over the years are making money illegitimatly.

People like Mr Harper, Mr Banfield, Ms Matic and all my friends down in London put lots of time and effort into teaching and developing their students. They provide an excellent service for them and should be rewarded accordingly.

Just because you do not agree with CKD syllabus etc, doesnt mean that you can imply that other CKD instructors are making money illegitimatley.


Good in theory, but it hasn't worked in practice. Remember, the only difference in techniques taught between junior and senior belts, front/rear variations of the same technique. Along with a four directional version of the same combination, and a speed drill with a different hand combination (which is already learnt at previous levels). So splitting each belt colour into junior and senior stages does not really help to deliver the compendium of techniques in an easier way.


One question for you. How do you get a good technique? Can you just see it performed once and then as if by magic do that technique perfectly?

No

You develop technique by repetition.

So in the CKD syllabus you will be doing the same techniques and be tested on them for over a year!

For someone who doesnt believe we give the best opportunity for the students to improve and practice in CKD I find the objection to the layout of the syllabus a bit strange.


So why does this happen so often in CKD?


I dont know of any instructor in CKD who hasnt the ability to take a class. The only way a person is in front and taking a section with maybe perhaps not enough experience is when they are new, developing AI's. As you have to start somewhere getting that experience.


Double gradings do not develop confidence for the purpose of teaching a class. Only teaching classes develops confidence for teaching classes. I accept that double grading a person may help to strengthen their commitment to training. However, double gradings are normally discussed prior to the grading. I.e. you speak to your instructor that you wish to do a double grading, and you agree to pay them twice the grading fee. You are not rewarded based on your actual ability (or improvement from the time that you started training). I like the way the group that I am with now does things: you apply for the next rank up in the system. Then, based on your performance (in the grading and in class), you are awarded your new rank. This can be anything from a complete fail, to a single, double, triple, even quadruple jump up. AND, you are not charged anything extra to cover the ranks that have been skipped.


I can only talk for Welsh CKD here. We rarely double grade students. We havent done so, I believe in over a year. There are two curcumstances in which I allow people to double grade. The first is for those with exceptional talent. If they effortlesly pick up the techniques and syllabus and can perfrom them to the highest standard then they should be double tested.

The other reason I sometime allow a double test is if a student is constantly having problems testing and has missed 3-4 tests. I may then allow them to work on the next belts material as well if they have put in enough time and can do their current syllabus to a good standard.

The only other time I might consider it is if a student is making the effort to attend every class at theri school and also attending the other Welsh ckd schools regularly. If someone is training 5-6 times a week then I may well consider it. Only thing is, the only person I know who has attended 5-6 lessons a week in the past year has been me :D

As for the financial aspect of double grading, in the past I never used to charge double for a double grading. I USED to charge for a single grading when the CKD HQ fees were lower. No I charge the fees I pay to ckd and a bit extra to cover hall hire and expenses. I dont charge £40 though.

As for your groups way of grading. Personaly, I wouldnt have a problem with somone being pushed up and extra belt on the grading day due to exceptional performance. BUT triple and sometime quadrouple grading someone on the day??? Im sorry, but I find that idea rediculous. Im hesitant to double grade students as its rare that someone is of a high enough standard in my opinion to do so. But to grade them up 3-4 belts...........


Taekwondo is also the same, in the way that CKD has people from different backgrounds, with different abilities. You are rewarded (as far as ranks are concerned) based on your effort and improvement since you first started. It is the improvement that is important. I see far more improvement in students in the Taekwondo group that I am in, than I ever saw in CKD students. I believe that this is due to higher teaching standards and stricter gradings.


While you had no control over the standard of examination at the London testing you did have control over the teaching standard in your school and also had control over whether or not your students were ready to grade.

So maybe its not lower standards of teaching in CKD thats to blame for the improvment in your students. Maybe its because of an improvment in your attitude to teaching. Youve just changed arts and are happier for the change. Maybe this is reflecting in your teaching these days.

I dont mean to say that when you taught CKD you werent good. Im mearly suggesting that as you were not happy with what you were teaching in CKD then your attitude to teaching CKD would not have been so positive and thus the standard wouldnt have been as good.

As for stricter gradings. Students should NOT be put in for a grading if their not of a standard where they can pass the test and do so well. BUT I dont think gradings being OVERLY strict is a good thing.

I know students who find the testing very nervwracking and it shows initially in their performance. These are students who can perform remarkably well, yet when it comes to testing they are so nervous that they lose it a bit. Ive seen students so nervous that they have completly buggered up parts of their test, only to stop, recompose and do it again and this time do it correctly. The gradings in wales are relaxed and we encourage our students to have fun and enjoy themselves and to just perform to the best of their abilities. If we were to start being stricter, they would enjoy themselves far less and the atmosphere would be one of fear and stress.

Gradings are not just something you pass, their also something you should learn from. You dont learn anything well,being in a high stress environment.


Hmmm, not in my experience...


My OVERALL experience of this is that the MAJORITY of instructors in CKD are passed with the skills and experience needed to take a class. BUT there are the odd one or two people whos skills are not up to scratch, but they are rare. And this isnt just in CKD. I have watched other classes in other arts where the instructors skills were not up to scratch, so its not just a CKD thing. Its in ALL arts.


My aim is not to discredit, but to discuss, learn, and educate. I came across this forum accidentally, and saw various arguments between CKD and "traditional" martial artists. As an ex-CKD practitioner who now studies a "traditional" martial art, I felt I was in a position to provide a unique perspective to the whole discussion.


Debate, questioning and giving of opinions are all good. Without questioning we never learn. Without questioning and debating we may find that our ideas get stale and stagnant.

CKD isnt perfect. Nothing on this planet is!
It has its flaws but it also has many positives, which I feel far outweigh the negatives in the art. By discussing the art and looking at it from different perspectives it allows us to re evaluate CKD in a different light.

Besides, if you didnt write your opinions down here I wouldnt be able to argue against them ;)


Every style has its flaws. However, CKDMAI claims that most traditional martial arts training is useless, and perpetuates such propaganda in an attempt to recruit more practitioners (watch CKD Part 2 for a demonstration of this).


Wouldnt say they call TMA usless. Rather its not as good as CKD :)


Thank you for the compliment. While I was in CKD I was often complimented for my technical ability, especially my kicks. Grandmaster Choi himself has commented on my ability the few times that I met and trained with him. A year on from when I left CKD, I have improved by leaps and bounds. When I first joined my group (the London Taekwondo Academy), I had the worst kicks in the class. I had to work so hard just to keep up. Comparing my progress over the last year in Taekwondo, to my progress over nine years in CKD - I just can't help ask myself, "What if..."


Well if I transfered to TKD from CKD, my kicks would not be of a high enough standard. I would be performing CKD ones out of habit and would have to practice a lot to change that. So I may be improving dramatically with my TKD kicks, but doesnt mean that what I got from CKD was poor.

[Scaramouch]

On the subject of CKD grades - although it'll fall on deaf ears - IMO

CKD seniors (+14-16) should go back to the previous system of 9 kup grades, grading every 4 months

CKD Juniors could stay with the 18 kup grades, grading every 2 months

I think most would agree this is perhaps more practical and avoids any comments re. mcdojoism, as having more grade levels for kids is a well established practise, with recognised benefits for providing short-term goals. For senior students a bit more difficult to justify.

As for double, triple, even quadruple grading I think CMM was probably referring to people coming into TKD from others MAs. CKD is somewhat unique in that you can "convert" an existing MA grade after several months CKD training to what your instructor/examiner believes to be your equivalent CKD grade. Most TMAs will make you go through the formal kup/kyu grades but if your ability is sufficient you can progress quickly by skipping (3x or 4x) grades if you are highly skilled.

IMO the actual full steps between the Dan grades themselves should be formally examined and obviously a major event. I think the intermediate Dan grades, however, are good in terms of giving structure to learning new techniques, patterns and drills but I wish they were just internal school based grades (no fee) awarded by the instructor.

[morphus]

I could agree with the idea of grading seniors & juniors, every four months & 2 months respectively.
I don't have a problem with converts promoted to equivalent grade as long as the training is truely intense & runs for a solid block of time, say 6 months & they meet reasonable standard for their level. I also think there should be a probationary period added to that.
I am not sure what the actual time scale is at the mo' for converts.

As for dan grades having a syllibus, with gradings is fine, (though i think they should be a little cheaper) I just wish there was a little more new content - such as grounwork/locks/throws, but that would be my personal preference.

[Scaramouch]

Glad you also see the logic. Obviously linked to the time in between gradings - attendance records should be kept to ensure that sufficient classes have been attended to justify grading. Say 25 for seniors grading every 4 months, 12 for juniors grading every 2?

Similar rules in terms of period trained, plus class attendance should apply to those converting - which I believe they already do. My only concern with this conversion system is for the higher grade BB's. You hear of 5th Dans coverting from TKD or KFu to equivalent CKD and then teaching CKD at their exisitng schools (e.g. Master Baron and Master Haase). I do wonder how long they spent in formal CKD training before converting to CKD, and how as school owners they maintain standards - apart from attending the odd seminar once a year and watching videos (as has already been pointed out - no substitute for attending a class/seminar).

[morphus]

"You hear of 5th Dans coverting from TKD or KFu to equivalent CKD and then teaching CKD at their exisitng schools (e.g. Master Baron and Master Haase). I do wonder how long they spent in formal CKD training before converting to CKD, and how as school owners they maintain standards - apart from attending the odd seminar once a year and watching videos (as has already been pointed out - no substitute for attending a class/seminar)."

The underlying 'principles' to CKD are much the same as any combat art, with only slight changes that make a huge difference to the final result. The differences you could say, being tweeking with techniques; such as side kick, front kick etc.
To keep the 'art' the way it should be performed(a la GMC) then the more stringent training & testing should be applied to converts.
This is all obviously in the hands of the headquarters & GMC.

[Scaramouch]

Sorry, may be my last post was a bit of an ambush.

It does make you think though..........

[amiller127]

Cant talk for Dafyd Haase

But Master Baron I know is an old friend of Master P. He saw CKD very early on in the UK and had been in contact with Master P over the years.

In the end he decided to convert, went to Atlanta and spent a week or two there. Since he has been travelling to Atlanta and also regularly travelling to seminars around the world and also training with GMC.

And of all the places for him to be based in the UK London is probably the best supported area for CKD in the country. He has some of the most senior UK CKD instructors there willing to help him and regular black belt sessions that he can attend to improve his training.

Dafyd Haase. He is the first CKD practitioner in his area. Its going to have to be an ongoing training thing for him with him travelling to HQ regularly to train or inviting Master P or GMC over. Although to be honest with you, if GMC etc couldnt be available then im sure a high ranking CI would be good to send over. They may not be the same grade, but a good 3rd or 4th Dan (or 2nd Dan if they sent Debs Rafferty ;) ) with experience would have the required knowledge to develop the converts knowlege and skill.

My view on it is that if they do come in at 5th Dan, then they should not be allowed to grade or advance for many years until they have sufficient knowledge and understanding of the art.

[Scaramouch]

I didn't intend these to be specific attacks against these gentlemen, they were just the examples I mentioned. I have not met either nor seen them perform but the point I was making was that in these situtations where a school owner converts it must be difficult to manage without good relationships and support from other nearby high-ranking CKD instructors. Hopefully they have both.

[amiller127]

I didn't intend these to be specific attacks against these gentlemen, they were just the examples I mentioned. I have not met either nor seen them perform but the point I was making was that in these situtations where a school owner converts it must be difficult to manage without good relationships and support from other nearby high-ranking CKD instructors. Hopefully they have both.

LOL

I didnt for once think you were attacking them. I was simply giving my opinion and perspective on it.

:D

[ROlpin]

Nothing I can add about him that isnt covered there really..

[LilBunnyRabbit]

I'm curious as to why you're presenting a case against someone who's presented as a TKD instructor in the CKD forum. It may be that I've just not heard the name in connection with Choi Kwang Do.

[morphus]

This guy is now associated with CKD in Canada. GMC has just done a big seminar over there. As for the guys past, well...we'll see how is with CKD i guess.

[ROlpin]

I'm curious as to why you're presenting a case against someone who's presented as a TKD instructor in the CKD forum. It may be that I've just not heard the name in connection with Choi Kwang Do.
Plenty more info on Mr Haase here:
(http://www.DafydHaase.com)

[morphus]

I was just gonna do that 'bun'

[DAT]

aye aye Captain. Permission to come aboard the USS Truth or the HMS Tell it Like it Is...I wish to sail with the ships that will not fall off the edge of the earth!

[morphus]

The posting of this web address has to be considered a personal attack because of the nature of the website. Also Mr Haase is not here to defend himself.

He will be judged on does while he is with CKD i would imagine.

[ROlpin]

Would be ok to post that website if Mr Haase was here to defend himself.
Thing is, everything on that site is independantly verifiable and he HAS been given the chance to answer/defend the allegations against him.

I was one of the instructors who was ripped of by Haase and as such I probably know a lot more about his past dealings than many of the people who would defend him, or who simply hide behind a smokescreen of "that was then, now he is CKD and the past doesnt matter.."

I'm not hiding behind a pseudonym. I have posted here with my real name and location for all to see. Would I do that if I wasn't sure of my facts?

[morphus]

Again i don't know him personally so i won't judge.