[Japan] Shudo - homosexuality in samurai era Japan

[slipthejab]

That's right... this is the all shudo all the time thread. Which is decidedly different than shooto. Confuse the two and you might find yourself in a bit of a funny situation. :D

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shudo

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality_in_Japan

http://www.androphile.org/preview/Culture/Japan/japan.htm

Not to worry folks...
I don't expect this to be exactly the blockbuster thread of MAP. But if you have something interesting on the topic to post then feel free. This thread is sure to be a great example of one of those threads that lots of people click on but few post. :p

[bcullen]

That's right... this is the all shudo all the time thread. Which is decidedly different than shooto. Confuse the two and you might find yourself in a bit of a funny situation. :D

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shudo

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality_in_Japan

http://www.androphile.org/preview/Culture/Japan/japan.htm

Not to worry folks...
I don't expect this to be exactly the blockbuster thread of MAP. But if you have something interesting on the topic to post then feel free. This thread is sure to be a great example of one of those threads that lots of people click on but few post. :p

Either slip got taken for a ride by another nekama or he wants to make Rags his wakashu. :D

[slipthejab]

Ouch!

As always BCullen is the first to post in a thread about debauchery.... and I thank him for that. :D

I have however noticed that 40 people have viewed this thread and yet not a single one has posted with the exception of BCullen.

It seems everyone loves samurai but no one is interested in samurai love.
:eek:

[adouglasmhor]

I once saw a really good murder mystery thriller film set amongst a samurai militia in feudal Japan and with a strong thread of homosexuality and homosexual love in it. I cant remember the name of it unfortunately as I would recommend the film to anyone on many levels.

[Lily]

Hey slip, this is my first view of the thread (you know I'm not shy :P).

I see nothing wrong with it, don't know why people get up in arms about the practice. However, in this day and age it does not have a place, the days of samurai are gone.

[Davey Bones]

it's not really news to me, so I'm hardly shocked or bewildered *shrug*

[slipthejab]

I once saw a really good murder mystery thriller film set amongst a samurai militia in feudal Japan and with a strong thread of homosexuality and homosexual love in it. I cant remember the name of it unfortunately as I would recommend the film to anyone on many levels.

A relatively recent one that might be the same is this:

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0213682/

Here's a quick review:

Gohatto aka Taboo (1999) Movie Review
Friday, October 21st, 2005 at 11:02 pm by Andrew Mackenzie

“Gay Samurai? Never seen that before.”

The above are my words, and probably the words of countless people upon discovering “Gohatto” (aka “Taboo”), a tale of homosexuality within a Samurai training camp during Japan ’s Shogun era.

The plotting is minimal, so much so that at times you wonder if something is actually going to happen. The film boils down to a lot of interpersonal conflicts within the camp, all centred around young Samurai Sozaburo Kano (Ryuhei Matsuda), the object of everyone’s desires. The conflicts and difficulties come out during training and sparring sessions that exposes the homosexual nature of a number of the students to stern leader Toshizo Hijikata (Takeshi Kitano, “Blood and Bones”), who can choose to intervene or let the Samurai in question go on with their own path.

“Gohatto” is a film for those with patience. A lot of patience. It is purposely slow in terms of storytelling and development, allowing the characters to unfold gradually in front of our eyes. This is the case for a lot of Japanese films (most notably Takashi Miike’s “Audition”) and, whilst not necessarily a bad thing, is certainly enough to turn away a large number of potential viewers. Even for those with more patience, “Gohatto” can still be a little frustrating, if it were not for the fact that the whole thing is so well acted.

Takeshi Kitano is brilliant as always, his Shakespearian inspired soliloquy at the end of the film being a high point . Young Ryuhei Matsuda is equally good as the effeminate and withdrawn Kano , and convinces with his character’s complexity. The rest of the supporting cast are also up to the task, in particular Shinji Takeda as Soji Okita, who is debatably the only actual gay man in the camp.

Where “Gohatto” falls short is that it fails to fulfil its own premise. Despite my initial interest in the existence of gay Samurai, what is shown onscreen is disappointing, with the film’s only gay sex scene being short and unrealistic. As well, if you’re expecting a lot of lightening-quick swordplay, the kind usually found in movies about the Samurai, you’ll be disappointed. The film’s fights consist of either sparring in training using wooden swords, or actual combat that are over in seconds.

The ending attempts to leave you with an afterthought (director Nagisa Oshima clearly wants you to discuss and interpret his film), yet there is a difference between leaving you with an afterthought and leaving you with unanswered questions. Suffice to say “Gohatto” leaves you with the latter.

Besides the beautiful scenery and interesting premise, “Gohatto” is a good example of how the Japanese like it slow. The film won’t change your life, but it does give you something to mull over, and is an aesthetically Japanese experience as you’ll likely to find anywhere.

Nagisa Oshima (director) / Nagisa Oshima, Ryotaro Shiba (screenplay)
CAST: Takeshi Kitano …. Toshizo Hijikata
Ryuhei Matsuda …. Sozaburo Kano
Shinji Takeda …. Soji Okita
Tadanobu Asano …. Hyozo Tashiro


I bought the Japanese version locally here in Hong Kong... while it's got subtitles the packaging is only in Japanese... needless to say there were some funny moments when I invited a bunch of mates over to watch it the first time and then grizzled old dominant samurai starts rootin' down on the younger, smooth faced feminine one.:eek:

Gee... wonder why my mates don't want to watch samurai films at my place anymore. :p

But... despite scaring off insecure male friends... it's a fantastic film actually. I quite enjoyed it. The acting is quality, the characters are developed enough, the mood and the cinematography is superb. The pace can be a bit slow to western sensibilities... as is often the case with Japanese films. Worth watching though.

PS... I just notice now 77 posts up from 44 earlier today... and still so few responses... Adoug, Gangrel, Lily and the BCullen... haha... not sure if that's a good thing or a bad thing that only you lot have made cameos here. :D
Well either way... much appreciated.

[bcullen]

Ouch!

As always BCullen is the first to post in a thread about debauchery.... and I thank him for that. :D

:D That's how I roll.

You down wit Dee-bah-cha-ry?
Yeah, you know me. :D






Gee... wonder why my mates don't want to watch samurai films at my place anymore. :p

"Joey, do you like movies about gladiators?" :D

I've run across the mention of samurai culture and homosexuality before. It really is amazing what gets omitted from the primary school history books. I guess it's not so bad with the information age here but the first year of college used to be a shocker for people.

[Davey Bones]

me and cullen and doug and Lily are the first responses because we ain't cowards, dammit! That's right, I just called all the other MAPers "cowards"!

[Su lin]

As soon as I saw the thread I thought of Gohatto. Really great film ,but it's Takeshi Kitano so I wouldn't have expected anything else.

Does this make me not a wimp too??? :D

[Hiroji]

Hot Damn!! I knew it!! I bloody knew it!! Ive been saying it for ten damn years!

This proves that i MUST have been a Samurai in my past life!!

[bcullen]

Hot Damn!! I knew it!! I bloody knew it!! Ive been saying it for ten damn years!

This proves that i MUST have been a Samurai in my past life!!

So Hiroji, I hear you fancy swordplay? :D

[adouglasmhor]

Gohatto it was - great film.

[BGile]

So Hiroji, I hear you fancy swordplay? :D

Touche, or could be "touch he"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Touch%C3%A9

Anyway, Yep it was a major thing back then and probably still is if truth be known. The thing is, covert, secret, etc...

Recent "Page" thing in Washington DC, comes to mind. Very prevelant over in the area you are staying at Slip, you would know about the "mores" more, since you are over there.
Not to suggest it is something you enjoy, just an observation of location. But someone already played that tune and you have not commented

Sexual preference was one, that was not as complex as it is today apparantly.

Most warrior societies have been mentioned to have this in it, very much. One of the reasons some prefer Christian views and mores they say. For it is against all of this "man play". One of the reasons for the "expunging" of the "christians" from Japan during the "edo period" some have mentioned.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/expunged

This subject, maybe something some are afraid of, so they look at it, see you posted it, and figure here he goes again, setting someone up to throw a "good right cross" at LOL... :p

It will be interesting, how many want to get involved ;)

[BGile]

I go to the open air markets that they call swap meets etc in California.
They have so many various cultures selling and buying it is a nice spot to walk around for a few hours and get some exercise and buy fresh produce.
Or other items of interest and need.

I noticed the other day a location that had many carved buddha and monk figures so I went over to look, on a table out of the way but still in the mans selling area were at least 50 carved men in coupling positions looked like monks, for they always had on the monk robe, partially exposing the act.

I was like WTF, I said something similar, he smiled and I left. The man was of asian decent looked very much like Chinese.

So "slip" is that a popular item in the "hong kong area", those carved figures coupling up. Since you are over in that land, the picture you are talking about I don't believe will be able to see. Unless it is on HBO?

The one about a couple of American Cowboys has been shown a lot. I have not watched it, Brokeback Mountain.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brokeback_Mountain

Notice the Director of the film?

As far as the Samurai, paints a whole new picture, about Miyamoto Mushashi and his book. http://www.answers.com/topic/shudo

His situation was really perfect for that, now that you read about it. Hmmm

Gary

[slipthejab]

Interesting. Never thought I'd be saying that about carved figurines representing monks having sex. :eek:

We have a lot of carved ivory here in Hong Kong... everything from mammoth tusks (supposedly) to elephant tusks. The Chinese seem bent on making sure that every animal some day will only be seen in paintings... but I guess that's an entirely other topic.

So at any rate... I've seen plenty of the traditional Chinese sculpted bits that show people having sex. Come to think of it many of these are in a Japanese style.

I was recently at one of the antiques shows and there was a fair bit Japanese netsuke on display. But even with netsuke I can't remember seeing much of a sexual nature. Though truth be told the Japanese have always had a ribald sense of humour when it comes to sex. Those smaller carvings were probably was the pornography of it's day. Now it's mostly sold to tourist. 99% of it is recently made and not antique. But... that being said I've never seen any showing monks. Wow. In general that monks are held in relatively high regard in Hong Kong (all of Asia for that matter) I don't think it'd go over well. But you never know.

[BGile]

Interesting. Never thought I'd be saying that about carved figurines representing monks having sex. :eek:

We have a lot of carved ivory here in Hong Kong... everything from mammoth tusks (supposedly) to elephant tusks. The Chinese seem bent on making sure that every animal some day will only be seen in paintings... but I guess that's an entirely other topic.

So at any rate... I've seen plenty of the traditional Chinese sculpted bits that show people having sex. Come to think of it many of these are in a Japanese style.

I was recently at one of the antiques shows and there was a fair bit Japanese netsuke on display. But even with netsuke I can't remember seeing much of a sexual nature. Though truth be told the Japanese have always had a ribald sense of humour when it comes to sex. Those smaller carvings were probably was the pornography of it's day. Now it's mostly sold to tourist. 99% of it is recently made and not antique. But... that being said I've never seen any showing monks. Wow. In general that monks are held in relatively high regard in Hong Kong (all of Asia for that matter) I don't think it'd go over well. But you never know.

Only in America as they say ;) I thought it was pretty risque to say the least.

They should have done their homework with this one :D

http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/n/a/2007/06/07/national/a175033D34.DTL

Gary

[tort]

Gary,

The movie is called Taboo here in the states and you should be able to rent it at Blockbuster's foreign section.

When I lived in Japan I saw figurines of the same motiff. When I first saw them I was just like you; WTF!?!

[BGile]

Gary,

The movie is called Taboo here in the states and you should be able to rent it at Blockbuster's foreign section.

When I lived in Japan I saw figurines of the same motiff. When I first saw them I was just like you; WTF!?!

Ok, I'll check the reviews. Thanks.

I am not into these as a general rule, I figure I am more of a don't ask don't tell sort. :) After all it is their "business" and not mine. I thought that was fairly rational thought, but others seem to think that looking through a peep hole, makes more sense? :confused:

Gary

[tort]

when i rented it i actually thought it was the samuri action type; boy was i suprised!lol

all in all though it wasnt a bad movie.

[slipthejab]

yeah it's sort of like.... 'Hey wait a minute... where's that samurai's other hand?!? It's not on his sword!!!' :eek: