[Choi Kwang Do] CKD: US vs UK

[Scaramouch]

Reading an article by Stuart Murray (3rd Degree CKD Black Belt) and was interested to hear his views on the difference between CKD in the US and the UK (well, Glasgow anyway).

QUOTE:

"Probably the most marked difference in attitude that I noticed was between the realistic edge to training here in Glasgow for the preparation of the positive transfer of skills to a street self defence situation, contrasting with the American attitude of training more for leisure pursuit as transferability is not always a practical option in a society where guns are commonly used in conflict situations. In America, martial arts are often a shared family activity, which contrasted with my own personal experience of coaching predominantly young adults."

Does this strike a cord with the CKD community? Do you think us Brits take CKD more seriously as an MA than the US?

Incidently, the official CKDMAI web site lists the UK as having 76 (including England, Wales and Scotland) clubs as opposed to the US having 45 clubs. An interesting statistic!

[captainmoomoo]

Very interesting post. I had heard of a slightly embarassing exchange during the last CKD instructor seminar between a Scottish instructor and Grandmaster Choi. It seems that the Scot was suggesting that the CKD defence drills should be 'speeded up' to be more realistic, epecially at black belt level, but Grandmaster Choi insisted that they should always be performed in a very slow and relaxed manner. When the Scottish instructor asked whether this is truly realistic, Grandmaster Choi was seemingly unable to answer.

I wasn't there, so maybe someone else can shed some more light!

Also, I know, from speaking personally to Grandmaster Choi in the past, that he is no longer too concerned about CKD's applicability for actual combat, but is more interested in its health benefits.

Could you please direct me to Mr Murray's full article please?

[Scaramouch]

The whole Stuart Murray interview can be read at:

http://choikwangdo.20m.com/contact.html

captainmoomoo check your PM as well.

[amiller127]

Originally posted by captainmoomoo
Very interesting post. I had heard of a slightly embarassing exchange during the last CKD instructor seminar between a Scottish instructor and Grandmaster Choi. It seems that the Scot was suggesting that the CKD defence drills should be 'speeded up' to be more realistic, epecially at black belt level, but Grandmaster Choi insisted that they should always be performed in a very slow and relaxed manner. When the Scottish instructor asked whether this is truly realistic, Grandmaster Choi was seemingly unable to answer.

I wasn't there, so maybe someone else can shed some more light!

Also, I know, from speaking personally to Grandmaster Choi in the past, that he is no longer too concerned about CKD's applicability for actual combat, but is more interested in its health benefits.

Could you please direct me to Mr Murray's full article please?

Firt thing. I was there during both days of the last CKD Instructors Seminar. I never heard GMC say that the drills are to be constantly done in a slow speed. He said that you are to start off slow for beginners and gradually build up the speed.

As for the combat side. GMC is happy about the ease of which the system of CKD can be used to learn to defend yourself. That side of the art has been very good for a long time. So he is focussing now on how to provide optimum health for those training in CKD. Whats wrong with that?

[amiller127]

[quote] Does this strike a cord with the CKD community? Do you think us Brits take CKD more seriously as an MA than the US? [/quote[

I believe that the public perception of the martial arts in America has been moving towards the positive charecter building benefits of the martial arts. You only have to see how NAPMA and MAIA are trying to promote the arts to see how this has come about. People over there see it as a fun, family thing to do that builds confidence and gives them even more skills. They also learn to defend themselves if they should need too.

The problem is you cannot have a professional school without a large number of students. A lot of American schools are now professional and in order to stay open they have moved their target customers, from a minority of hardcore people who JUST want to know how to beat people into a bloody pulp. They now want to target families, children and proffesional workers. These people dont want to spar, get beat up of risk being hurt. They also dont want their children learning how to be violent. It is to accomodate these people that a lot of schools in the US are tailoring their classes in a less aggressive manner.

Also, as Americans have the right to bear arms, most of the buggers i met in Atlanta do so. I know of a few students who are not worried about getting beaten, their worried about getting shot, and i dont know of an art around that can stop a bullet.

:woo:

And i think in the UK, we have an attitude of we want to be able to handle ourselves in a fight. We go out on the weekend and see so many fights. We want to learn to be confident of ourselves in that atmosphere. When i have visited America and gone out at night i have not seen any fights. Im not saying that they dont occur, they do. But i have seen more fights in one night in my small home town than i have going out in America. We as a country get so smashed on drink that we have a lot of violence in the country.

So yes, we do take the fighting aspect of it more serious. Compare an american martial arts magazine to a UK one. Ours have details of how to use techniques, what to do if you are attacked. The american ones i have read are more of an interview with an instructor article and events than anything that you could read and make use of.

[47Ronin]

Originally posted by amiller127
I know of a few students who are not worried about getting beaten, their worried about getting shot, and i dont know of an art around that can stop a bullet.

[/B]

Bullet Proof Monk :D .

[amiller127]

Originally posted by 47Ronin
Bullet Proof Monk :D .

Yes, but if i remember, he stopped it with his body. Dont want to get shot without any mystical powers to heal unfortunatly.

:woo: :eek: :Angel:

[amiller127]

Originally posted by captainmoomoo
[B]Very interesting post. I had heard of a slightly embarassing exchange during the last CKD instructor seminar between a Scottish instructor and Grandmaster Choi. It seems that the Scot was suggesting that the CKD defence drills should be 'speeded up' to be more realistic, epecially at black belt level, but Grandmaster Choi insisted that they should always be performed in a very slow and relaxed manner. When the Scottish instructor asked whether this is truly realistic, Grandmaster Choi was seemingly unable to answer.

And one more thing about this, because I WAS there. Grandmaster Choi was asked a question by a Scottish instructor. As he said on the day and has said in past times, he finds the Scottish accent very hard to understand. He has had enough trouble in the past with my Welsh accent.

GMC tried to answer what he thought the instructor was asking to the best of his abilities. I dont think he understood 100% what was being asked and maybe didnt give the most clear answer to the question. BUT, he did answer it to the best of his ability and after doing so asked the instructor if he had answered the question. He also said that if he hadnt, to approach him at the end of the class or call him up when he was back in Atlanta and he do his best to answer the question if he wasnt satisifed.

It annoys me that you bring that up, as it is hearsay. You were not there and so you didnt see what was asked and how GMC tried to answer it. By all means, if you have any criticisms based on your experience of CKD then share them. But please dont put down something that you "heard" off of someone else, because I dont think that is exactly fair.

[Scaramouch]

amiller127, your comments in your earlier post raise some fundamental questions -

Correct me if I’m wrong, but I thought that CKD, whether taught in the US or the UK, was a martial (fighting) art – regardless of the way you package it. This means that at its heart it teaches you how to fight and the spin-offs of this is are the improved health benefits. Otherwise, if you don’t want to fight but want similar health benefits shouldn’t we do circuit training and yoga?

Quote from your post –

“A lot of American (CKD) schools are now professional and in order to stay open they have moved their target customers, from a minority of hardcore people who JUST want to know how to beat people into a bloody pulp. They now want to target families, children and professional workers. These people don’t want to spar, get beat up or risk being hurt.”

I am a “professional” worker with a young family and I don’t consider myself a hardcore martial artist and I do not want to “learn how to beat people to a bloody pulp”. But I want to spar and want to continue to learn how to fight/defend myself through training in CKD. In order to achieve this I think it is necessary to have a slight element of fear when you train i.e. you block or get out of the way of an attack otherwise you risk getting hit. You need to get used to this feeling as I have learnt from experience it comes in VERY handy when you are in a street fight/bar brawl for real. After all, in order to be effective a lot of CKD techniques require you to be quite relaxed which is difficult to do when you are sh*t scared.

Is the difference between CKD in the US vs UK down to this issue of making money? In the US do they dilute the MA aspects of CKD in order to keep/recruit students and have professional schools? Whilst in the UK we don’t fall for that – if there is a diluted MA aspect we go off and do something else, or if we don’t want to learn how to fight we join a gym.

[amiller127]

Ok, maybe my point wasnt quite made out clearly.

In america, they have a focus on the self defence side, but not to the same extent as we do over here. The balance in America would be something like 33% self defence, 33% health, 33% personal success, i.e. confidence building etc. They see it for more than a fighting art to use to defend themselves. If they are attacked then they can defend themselves, but it is so much more to them than that. In the UK, whether its a good or bad thing, we narrow our belief of the benefits of Martial Arts. I was taught CKD in a way that only really considered how to defend yourself. We didnt do the pledge and tenents. We were far more formal and we didnt have any emphasis on the positive charecter building aspect of the art. So when I practice i tend to think of how to make my art more practical for my students. as such i didnt have the skills of bringing on the positive aspects.

Recently I have been exposed to the more positive side of what the martial arts can do. As such i have made myself a much better teacher. my students still get that practical knowledge, but i also build on their charecter, more in line with the system in america.

So i dont consider it that im watering down certain aspects. Rather I focus on balencing their self defence needs with the positive side of CKD.

As for exposing my students to a little bit of fear. I agree with you that after a point it can be good to induce a little fear into them. But i can do that without using sparring. I also dont generally do it until they have been practicing for at least 2 years.

With one attack and counter and also the close range i get my students who are being attacked to close their eyes. Their partner can then roam around them and start to show a technique. The attacker then kihaps, the other partner opens their eyes and then they have to react to the attack. Thats how i like to do it. My students all get nervous at it, but they enjoy the drill and manage to keep their composure. They also start to get used to the surprise element of an attack and deal with the fear.
So i have basically modified the drill slightly. I wouldnt get in trouble for it as we are 99% performing it as they want in the states. But it is modified to bring that important "fear" and surprise aspect into the class.

Might be worth you trying it in class. I have just listed a slightly basic version of what i do, but you can get the gist of it. Im happy to discuss it more with you if you have any more questions on it.

[amiller127]

Also, two more things I just forgot to mention. I dont think that its a bad thing for students who have been practicing for a while and are comfortable with their blocks to then have their partners attack them with a little more power. Building it up until its quite realistic. As long as the attacker is doing this at a good pace and not rushing the student then i feel it is beneficial. But the defender must be comfortable with it.

And my point about the americans is that they are running a business. As such they do want to make a living off of teaching the art. I have no problems with that. And what they are doing is trying to broaden the customer base they had. instead of just attracting certain specific people, why not open it up and bring in even more people. you dont have to dilute your art to do that. just have a system in place which is logical and that the people can see how it helps them to progress and develop.

Their not diluting it for money. They are making it as accessible as possible for everyone to benefit from. Making it so that it can appeal to a broader range than the typical male of 15-35.

Finally, i must say this. Im enjoying speaking to you about these things. Its good to have this kind of conversation so that we can see both sides and educate each other. If you want to keep on this subject or if you have anything else to say then post it or e mail me and I will get back to you in more depth if i can.

[Freeform]

33% self defence, 33% health, 33% personal success

What do you do for the other 1% ? ;)

Freeform, injecting levity into threads since 16-02-2002 ;)

[LilBunnyRabbit]

1% financial success.

[amiller127]

Damn it. Knew some smart ass would pick up on that missing 1%. :D

The extra 1% is that last bit we keep in reserve for knocking cocky TMA ists when they get picky ;)

Only joking. I just couldnt be bothered to make it balance out to 100%. You all get the idea anyway.

[morphus]

Hmmm.....

I was also at the seminar at which the Scottish instructor made his inquiry about the speed of the drills. Grandmaster Choi answered all questions without problem - but did have trouble understanding the scots & welsh accent, LOL - I think (personally) the emphesis was being made on doing the drills safely & at a speed you could easily learn at. As you get more experience you tend to get faster at what you practice but still have a need to learn.

Children (play)fight all the time & do learn some valueble lessons from it, but it won't make them a great fighter, it just part of the puzzle.

We practice at a level that both partners agree on, that simple. Sometimes it gets heavy, sometimes not. Sometimes we play.

I'm sure everybody at that seminar & every other type of seminar came away with different info'.

One thought - when you are taught to drive, you learn the way the examiner wants you to drive & show on your test, the way the government transport department say everybody should drive. The minute you are out on the road you do it the way you find comfortable, picking up different habits, getting tips from other drivers at times but keeping a central core of what you were taught. Like lots of other things in life, it's not set in stone.

I do not teach the gospel according to .......anyONE, i use methods gathered from a wide range of experience, not all of these from martial arts.

[Freeform]

TMAist? Where? ;)

[Scaramouch]

Its getting a little difficult to separate some of the sparring discussions on CKD issues made in this thread from those being made in the 2nd Captain Moo Moo thread -

http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=6843

But anyway, here are some additional thoughts that follow on with respect to this thread - CKD US vs UK.

It appears we are mainly in agreement that the emphasis on fighting/self defence elements of CKD are probably stronger in the UK than in the US. However, there is still some discussion in this thread as to whether free sparring is of any self defence benefit.

The reason why free sparring has been useful to me in terms of self defence, contrary to amiller127’s views, is that outside the dojo/dojang it has made me ALWAYS want look for a way out before getting involved in a fight. This is also a view shared by other TMA-ists on the forum

Originally posted by Thomas
[BFor me personally, I don't have a particular style I fear, but rather certain individuals. One good thing, especially martial artists who have been training a while (and I find usually in Traditional Arts) tend NOT to want to fight. the problem is that 'untrained' people tend to be more unpredictable and have a good chance of hurting you! [/B]

Free sparring has taught me that it is actually quite difficult to land a technique if someone has lots of space to move. However, if you do land a technique without control there can be serious consequences. This was a very sobering lesson to me when I began training as an impetuous teenager and in fact made me much more reluctant to allow myself to be drawn into a bar or street fight and I would go to all possible lengths (including running away) before wanting to get into any confrontation.

[Cain]

Free sparring has taught me that it is actually quite difficult to land a technique if someone has lots of space to move.

And someone who hits back making you hesitate and/or instill fear ;)

|Cain|

[amiller127]

Like i said in one of the threads.

I dont think that Sparring makes every student not look for viable alternatives to fighting. What i believe is that it can condition some into sticking and fighting without looking for other options. There are many students who would look for an escape route who spar regularly. But i think that it increases the likelyhood of some students staying and fighting when they have other options.

Why not use other drills, modify them for the suprise element and let your students deal with defending and countering then.

Another thing to consider is that if someone attacks you, they generally believe themselves to be stronger than you or have enough element of surprise that they can do significant damage to you. What they are not expecting is for you to be conditioned to block and counter attack with speed. They are not expecting it, so if you train yourself to work on those counter attacks, with the surprise element, then you have a far better chance of getting the hits in while the attackers mind has been confused by your counter.

With sparring, the person being attacked does not have that shock of being attacked. The attacker is fully aware that they are attacking someone who is expecting a fight and is thus prepared for a counter attack.

In boxing if someone manages a knockout with a single punch, its usually the punch that their opponent didnt see and was caught off guard with. As they were not prepared for the impact they get knocked down. So my feelings are, you can do more damage to your opponent if you can counter attack before their brain has realised that you actually arent as week or vulnerable as they had anticiapted.

[amiller127]

I got the following rules on olympic TKD sparring from a web site by Chris Foran at www.ChrisForan.com

Just an example of how some people if they are used to adhereing to these rules when fighting in the ring, may adhere to them, even only momentarily when attacked on the street. As the human brain does things out of habit it can do this subconcsiously when you are attacked on the street. This is why i would rather not have my students sparring due to the fact that it can reinforce these ideas in their brains by constantly practicing them.

It clearly shows that you have to limit yourself in the fight, not hit to certain areas, not fight dirty and NOT flee from the fight if you have the chance. The site also metnions on the same article that the sole aim is to Dominate your opponent. What i feel that someone should be doing for self defence is look at all possible ways to limit the damage caused to them in an attack by any means possible.

Penalties
Penalties are issued in one of two ways, as a warning (kyong-go) or a deduction (gam-jeom). Two warnings or one deduction are counted as a loss of one point. Warning penalties include:

· grabbing, holding or pushing your opponent
· avoiding your opponent, fleeing the competition area or feigning injury
· kicking, kneeing or intentionally punching the face or attacking the groin.

[Cain]

Well then do you do drills which involve a reverse punch, a side kick and then running away? ;)

|Cain|

[OLDLilBunnyRabbit]

The site also metnions on the same article that the sole aim is to Dominate your opponent.

Sounds kinky.


Well then do you do drills which involve a reverse punch, a side kick and then running away?

Well, not with those specific techniques, its more up to the student's choice. And we don't run too far afterwards.

[amiller127]

Originally posted by Cain
Well then do you do drills which involve a reverse punch, a side kick and then running away? ;)

|Cain|

No the drill usually has the person, block, counter as swiftly as possible with 3-5 attacks and then it ends. It is flexible where they can do a little more if they need to or less if they dont need to. As soon as they are finsihed I want them thinking of running ASAP.

[Cain]

Actually my post was sarastic, amiller seems to assume actual sparring's farther to self defense than drills saying sparring does'ntteach running away but encouraging to fight, I asked sarastically that then maybe they have drills on that too.

I have no problem with CKD and what it does but the claims about sparring, other martial arts and the like.....well...sheesh!


|Cain|

[amiller127]

Originally posted by OLDLilBunnyRabbit
Sounds kinky.


Well, not with those specific techniques, its more up to the student's choice. And we don't run too far afterwards.

And we do some light running to warm up in class before stretching:D :rolleyes:

[Cain]

No the drill usually has the person, block, counter as swiftly as possible with 3-5 attacks and then it ends. It is flexible where they can do a little more if they need to or less if they dont need to. As soon as they are finsihed I want them thinking of running ASAP.

The same can be done with sparring simply because we spar until domination does'nt mean we won't escape from the situation same as because you don't run away in drills it does'nt mean you won't do it in real life.

But there are times when you simply have to stay and fight.

Anyways I think sparring has been discussed more than enough before so I will shut up and crawl back to my hole before one of the mods decide to bang their sticks ;)

|Cain|

[amiller127]

Originally posted by Cain
The same can be done with sparring simply because we spar until domination does'nt mean we won't escape from the situation same as because you don't run away in drills it does'nt mean you won't do it in real life.

But there are times when you simply have to stay and fight.

Anyways I think sparring has been discussed more than enough before so I will shut up and crawl back to my hole before one of the mods decide to bang their sticks ;)

|Cain|

Im not saying that you all wont try to escape. Im just suggesting that it actually increases the likelyhood of a student not considering it because they are conditioned to and associate with fighting with certain rules.

And i agree. I have had enough of sparring comments. I just wanted to put my opinions about it over. Unless someone has something else to say about my opinions then im going to drop the subject.

:eek:

[lawman]

Originally posted by amiller127
I know of a few students who are not worried about getting beaten, their worried about getting shot, and i dont know of an art around that can stop a bullet.



Actually, I did hear of a Malaysian art which incorporates fighting with Magick; and produced such results.

I later spoke to a Malaysian artist who had practised a different art for 40 years but he confirmed that the magick one does exist in Malaysia.

Hard for many to believe, but this world is bigger than a pond.

[LilBunnyRabbit]

Actually, I did hear of a Malaysian art which incorporates fighting with Magick; and produced such results.

I later spoke to a Malaysian artist who had practised a different art for 40 years but he confirmed that the magick one does exist in Malaysia.

Find me a practitioner of it and a gun, this I have to see.

[lawman]

Originally posted by LilBunnyRabbit
Find me a practitioner of it and a gun, this I have to see.

lol.

I have no evidence that I can tender on this other than the few artists from differing backgrounds who confirmed this to me.

But if you study issues of Magick, then this is something less ordinary to what can be achieved.

Again, from ppl that haven't looked into Magick, I would fully understand their sceptism.

[amiller127]

Its funny. My dad lived in Malaysia for a few years. He never seemed to have heard of it. Im sure that he would have wanted me to train in it if it could stop a bullet.

Also, if this was true, then how come some government hasnt tracked it down and had ti taught to their army? God, imagine if the Americans got wind of it. Their armed forces would be even more big headed than they are now :D

Meethinks that the people your friends have either misinformed you, or they have watched WAY too much Matrix.

[lawman]

No evidence, so no argument on my side.

That aside, the fact that your father was in the country for some time, does not necessarily provide a sound argument.

For example, previous Taoist masters would not teach their understandings of Chi energy manipulation to anyone other than their sons and long term disciples, creating a very closely guarded secret for centuries.

The emporers in China would be taught it to enhance their longevity, faculties of reasoning, health and sexual stamina, but again, it was taught to the elite few.

But as a last word, I concede on this point, as I have no evidence to support me other than hearsay, albeit from a variety of reliable witnesses.

[captainmoomoo]

they have watched WAY too much Matrix

There is no such thing as TOO MUCH MATRIX!!! :D

[lawman]

lol.

Might aswell join the crowd.

TOO MUCH MATRIX!!!!:cool:

[LilBunnyRabbit]

Woah! Woah! No more Chi discussion! Even I'm getting tired of it. Can we at least keep it to the chi threads?

[captainmoomoo]

I wish the matrix was real and I was Neo :(

[Shade]

Hey LBR, i agree lets not get started on chi again :D

As for stopping bullets, now even I think that's ridiculous.

[Scaramouch]

I do believe in Chi in the internal Chinese arts and Ki in Japanese arts, for example Ki Aikido concentrates very much on this - but the issue of Chi/Ki has been argued extensively on the internal arts forum so go there if you want more info. The use of Ki, as in Ki Aikido, de-mistifies its benefits in everyday life. There are lots of books on the subject, go to Amazon if interested.

But as has been said, no, you're not going to be able to stop/avoid bullets using special MA powers..............thats just daft...............

[lawman]

oh boy, talk about miscontruing my comments.

Just to clarify, I didn't mention Chi as a means supposedly employed by x art.

I stated that based on hearsay, x type of art existed which mixed martial aspects with Magick (ie. Black Magic).

Confusing Chi with Black Magic is just misreading the original statement, or perhaps not venturing into studies of either, hence confusing the two.

There is nothing mystical about any knowledge.

Mysticism is a label stuck on knowledge of anything, which most people are ignorant of.

As such, flying an aeroplane in a land where people do not understand jet propulsion would be viewed as mysticism and the pilot as a mystic.

As regards Chi, this is essentially bio-electrical energy naturally produced in the body and other living creatures. This energy source may have additional properties, but essentially it is this. No need to venture into this topic, as I did not raise it.

Due to the fact that Western instruments cannot record the energy source, it is deemed mystical.

If anybody wanted to discuss my comments regarding the bullets, as a general discussion, and not as confirmation or denial of the hearsay; they should actually have discussed the issue of black magic; as that was the supposed means of achieving the feats I was considering.

Not Physical Martial Arts, and not Chi energy.

As nobody has even raised the relevant questions, perhaps this stray comment should just be closed as this is obviously not the place to consider such assertions, with an open, unbiased and educated stance.

Perhaps some worlds are only ponds.

[Shade]

Personally I had recognised that you were referring to black magic, but try and keep my discussions about such things to places such as occult forums.

Maybe if this place is such a pond you should go elsewhere? I can recommend a good site for you to talk to people about that sort of thing - PM me if you want the link.

[lawman]

Thanks Shade, but not really interested in discussing occult subjects anymore. Been there, done that, so to say.

As for the pond comment, well perhaps I should just be more patient. I apologise for that.

I tell you what, let's just forget that I even mentioned stray comments only marginally relevant in this forum; and just move on.

[Shade]

Forgive me I wasnt trying to be flippant with you.

I've had my share of impatience on here too :D

[Yama Tombo]

:woo: :woo: :woo: :woo: :woo: :woo: :woo: :woo:
Americans and Guns sounds about right, who needs self-defense in America? ;)