Sparring

[Wilki]

Im thinking of taking up hapkido, and I was wondering what sparring is like. Do you do grapples, locks, kicks, etc. to the body, or does it also involve blows to the face/head?

[JimH]

Sparring as in sport,like TKD?

Hapkido,for the most part,is not a sport,(though some use it now as a competition much like MMA), so sparring is not part of the training.
Sparring indicates a give and take relationships,Hapkido takes what the opponent gives and uses it against them,not giving them much after that except pain.

Training can be as realistic as the instructor allows and as Real as the two or more participants agree to allow it to be,but i would not classify this as sparring.

[Wilki]

Sparring as in sport,like TKD?

Hapkido,for the most part,is not a sport,(though some use it now as a competition much like MMA), so sparring is not part of the training.
Sparring indicates a give and take relationships,Hapkido takes what the opponent gives and uses it against them,not giving them much after that except pain.

Training can be as realistic as the instructor allows and as Real as the two or more participants agree to allow it to be,but i would not classify this as sparring.

im talking about if you go to a real hapkido class. I want to know how they sparr in those classes.

[nj_howard]

im talking about if you go to a real hapkido class.
So is JimH.

[Wilki]

so then to practice skills you just work with another person, rather than actual sparring?

[Jointlock]

It depends school to school I think. I have students spar around green belt level using punching, kicking, locks, throws, and ground fighting. We get the grappler gloves and wear head gear and shin protection.

It also depends on your definition of sparring. We do partner techniques with resistence once the student has learned the technique and allthough it is not an all out match it is dynamic and could be considered sparring.

We also do realistic drills with attacker and defender type of situations.

[Thomas]

Im thinking of taking up hapkido, and I was wondering what sparring is like. Do you do grapples, locks, kicks, etc. to the body, or does it also involve blows to the face/head?
Depends on the school. Some schools work lots of drills and whatnot and some schools have various forms of free fighting and sparring. Our school for example, does free fighting under various rulesets and levels of contact.

Schools under the WHA have sparring tournaments with grappling/striking/etc. (see http://www.worldhapkido.com/)

Best bet- check with the school in question and ask them.

[hapk1do]

Im thinking of taking up hapkido, and I was wondering what sparring is like. Do you do grapples, locks, kicks, etc. to the body, or does it also involve blows to the face/head?

In our organization, Face contact is not legal until you reach Cho Dan(brown belt) or higher.. after that, controlled face contact is legal. At the World Kido Federation World Championships, Clinching and throwing are legal in conjunction with basic kick boxing/sparring techniques..

[Cosmo Kramer]

we do sparring in class, but its not a sport so it depends what you want to work on. sometimes we do just ground work, others just standing, and sometimes we do both.

[Yakka]

I think that all out sparring is not an option with HKD and would say that it needs a great deal of care and understanding with both participants engaging in the sparring situation, control is paramount and so is care when performing all Hapkido techniques, as the techniques are designed for very real aggressive situations and Sport is not part of this.

[Wilki]

awsome, the reason why I ask about face contact is because I wanted to find a martial arts that worked on throws, locks, etc. without hard sparring. Its not that I dont want to get hit, rather I'd like to work on technique and things of that nature.

[JTMS]

I think that all out sparring is not an option with HKD and would say that it needs a great deal of care and understanding with both participants engaging in the sparring situation, control is paramount and so is care when performing all Hapkido techniques, as the techniques are designed for very real aggressive situations and Sport is not part of this.

You can take many parts of hapkido and turn them into a sporting event Nak Bub, Sparring, etc.

I have attended hapkido tourneys in the US and Korea, they are great fun!

Thanks,
JB Murphy

[Hapuka]

Im thinking of taking up hapkido, and I was wondering what sparring is like. Do you do grapples, locks, kicks, etc. to the body, or does it also involve blows to the face/head?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e5q-OeU9Vh0

[JTMS]

nice clip

[timex]

enjoyed the clip-thanks.

[Hapuka]

No problem guys. :)

[JimH]

Nice clip.
Not my idea of true application of Hapkido,looks like TKD that allows tackling to the ground.
If we look at it we see what the sport mindset does in this application.
Instead of taking ground,holding it and working in close most of these people have the TKD sport mindset of kick,back off ,create distance and rekick,
hardly any punching,as applied under rules.
These kicks are not even street usable so we have taken a self defense,again, and turned it into a sport similar to UFC/MMA,and we are teaching sport which does not represent the needs or uses as would be on the street.

Watching that clip shows the point I made about give and take over just take.

Sorry I do not see this as Hapkido.

[JTMS]

Nice clip.

Watching that clip shows the point I made about give and take over just take.

Sorry I do not see this as Hapkido.

Well.......I attend a huge hapkido tournament in Bussan every other year and if I am not mistaken Jim H your hapkido Grand Master is almost always there with his hapkido Grand Master. I will be there again in the spring of 2008. TRUST me when I say that there are many talented hapkidoin at this demo and tourney!

"People that live in glass houses should not throw stones."

Best wishes,
J.B. Murphy

[Angelus]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e5q-OeU9Vh0
beautiful clip... lol thats some flashy sparring :D
love the sweep at 1:01

[JimH]

Choi did not have High kicks.
Hapkido was not sport.
Hapkido is a close in art,that uses kicks,knees,elbows and hand strikes to close the gap,soften the opponent and get in close to work our joint locks and get pain compliance.

Aside from TKD styled kicks by most in the clip and rushes that end in ground fighting,where is the Hapkido?

It does not matter who sits and watches it,whether it be GMP,GM In Sun Seo ,In Hyuk Suh or any one else this is not Hapkido,this is sport TKD or MMA.

If one wanted a Jujitsu Competiton they would do Judo type sport,not Karate.

If one wants to do true Hapkido competiton,then where are the grabs,joint locks,pain and throws?
They cannot be done safely at speed without rules of attack.
True Hapkido competiton would be as dangerous as true jujitsu competiton,true Hapkido would be like Yudo,not TKD.

Once we initiate rules we have sport.
sport is a different mindset to street.

If one does more sport than Street ,then sport is what comes out in Reality.

As said it is a nice clip,but it is sport and exchange,more along the lines of MMA or a TKD tournament in which participants get carried away.

My opinion anyway.

Hey but this is my opinion and I have said this for a few years on here since we discussed Pro Hapkido and talk of the 2004 championship DVD ,in which some members on here had competed in.

[Mitch]

Sparring is sparring, not the totality of the art.

Rules simply set sparring along a continuum from realistic to stylised.

True TKD is no more Olympic sparring than the construction industry is lego.

Sparring is great fun, and can be valuable, but is little to do with genuine self-defence. There are other ways to pressure test, which should be the goal of MA.

Mitch

[JTMS]

Choi did not have High kicks.
Hapkido was not sport.
Hapkido is a close in art,that uses kicks,knees,elbows and hand strikes to close the gap,soften the opponent and get in close to work our joint locks and get pain compliance.

If one wants to do true Hapkido competiton,then where are the grabs,joint locks,pain and throws?
They cannot be done safely at speed without rules of attack.
True Hapkido competiton would be as dangerous as true jujitsu competiton,true Hapkido would be like Yudo,not TKD.

Once we initiate rules we have sport.
sport is a different mindset to street.

My opinion anyway.

Hey but this is my opinion and I have said this for a few years on here since we discussed Pro Hapkido.

Hello Kyosanim Hartigan,

I thank you for your view and input. However let me try to educate you a bit on "traditional hapkido tournaments".

I agree that hapkido is NOT a sport however that does not mean that we can't get together and have fun.

Hapkido tournaments have competition in Nak Bub, Sparring, Ho Sin Sul, hyung, and weapons hyung.

The sparring "rules" keep it reasonable to prevent grevious injury as hapkido is a severe and punishing art.

Compitition is good, sparring is great! It is good to know what it is like to get hit, how to move, to close, etc. All the while the competitors are under a bit of "stress". I find it good for my students to compete a bit.

I hope this helps you,

Kwanjangnim J.B. Murphy

[hapk1do]

In our organization, Face contact is not legal until you reach Cho Dan(brown belt) or higher.. after that, controlled face contact is legal. At the World Kido Federation World Championships, Clinching and throwing are legal in conjunction with basic kick boxing/sparring techniques..

I just wanted to correct myself here and say that I meant Cho Gup instead of Cho Dan.. Cho Dan is actually 1st degree BB. Thanks. :woo:

[Coges]

From personal experience I think "sparring" is a great tool to use in enhancing your training as long as you take it in perspective. I have never sparred much in the past and am only beginning to now (never been in a real fight either) but in addition to all the other types of training I think it can greatly benefit things like your distance, timing, spotting opportunities, dealing with pressure, being rushed, trying new techniques, etc. Some of these things you may find in other areas but having the opportunity to build these skills, to me, is extremely important.

Having said that, I think that it's also important to remember that sparring is exactly that. It's sparring. It won't resemble a real situation, physically or mentally but that's why you have other types of pressure tested training in addition to sparring and all the other types of drills that you do.

[JimH]

I understand what the competitons are for.
My point is that as competiton they are sport,sport with rules and in NONE of the clips I have seen,nor the pro Hapkdio DVDs I have seen,show Hapkido technique,I see more TKD .
I understand that it is for safety but the competiton is called Hapkido,
Not pro Korean arts.
Not pro TKD.
Not Pro Yudo.

ITF TKD and other TKD competitons have Sparring,Hapkido based self defense,have breaking,have weapons and have forms,continuos sparring also has take downs as seen in the clips,so what is the difference?
It is not called Hapkido.

I understand Competiton as I have been in the arts for a very LONG time.
I have also fought for real and in competitons, and tournament are not the same,no matter the spin.

Yes competition teaches you to get hit,exchange,move in ,move out,look for openings to score your points.

Reality,there is no gear to protect you,so you feel the Real blow at full blast.
Yes it makes you feel a rush,but not the same rush as when accosted on the street ,by surprise and your heart rate goes to 200 BPM in a flash,that could be a fight ending rush.
Yes,it allows you to distance,but in a relal figt they do not stay at distance long do they?
Yes it teaches how to set up,try setting up against a charging opponent who means to hurt you not point on you.
Try those midlevel or higher kicks and strikes on a charging opponent,who shortens the distance and does not allow you to lock out the strike,but bowls you over as you are on one leg or at the half way point of the punch or strike.
It teaches technique,well try any of those high flash high kicks on the street and most times it will be over and done,for you.

It seems to me ,we are following and falling into the misrepresntation of sport and passing it as reality,similarly to MMA,and or other sport arts.

I see tons of kicks absorbed and the opponets still go forward at each other.
Look at Kyokushin fights on Youtube and see how long you keep going when hit,and those guys hit with no gear on.

We cannot do the core of Hapkido,but yet we call it Hapkido competition.

As said,for what it is,the clips are nice,just like TKD sparring,lets call it TKD extreme ,lol,not Hapkido.

Again this is my opinion.

I understand why many like it.
When I was younger I also liked the test presented by competition,but it was prior to sport and the test was hard and many times bloody,and still not reality but alot closer than what we pass off today as close to reality.

[JTMS]

I
I understand Competiton as I have been in the arts for a very LONG time.
I have also fought for real and in competitons, and tournament are not the same,no matter the spin.



Hello Jim H.

Sir,

I bow to your knowledge and skill. It is obvious to me that I should not debate such an issue with someone who has been in Hapkido for such a "LONG" time. I am sad to report that I have only been training for the past 30 years or so (if that matters) and I am sure that I can learn a lot from your infinite experience and knowledge (lol).

I think it is important that we do not discourage any who practice hapkido. Even if we have been in the art for a "LONG" time. Ho Sin Sul and Nak bub competition at these tournaments are without a doubt hapkido in its "true" form (these events were not displayed on the video link). And as discussed before: Yes you are right it is a sporting competition, No it is not a street fight. What it IS: FUN a chance to gather together with peers and compete and display good martial etiquette and sportsmanship.

If you don't want to go to a hapkido tournament, DON'T GO! But please lets not criticize those that are trying to have a little good clean fun.

I host the World KIDO Federation - Hanminjok Hapkido Assn, Korean Martial Arts Grand Nationals in Dallas, TX each year. I would love to have you as a guest. I think your out look might change and I am sure you would have a good time.

[JimH]

Moolsumaster,
I thought a discussion board allowed one to post their opinions of subjects?

At the end of each post I said "My Opinion"
Not trying to pass anything off as the absolute only thoughts.

I am Glad that you and others like you ,like and support this version of Korean MMA known as Pro Hapkido/Hapkido Competition.

I do not support it,but I also do not discourage others from their quest to try it if they like.

I am entitled to my opinions on the subject and I think I have done so in a logical and curteous way.

I do not understand your attack on my saying I have been in the arts for a Long time.
I began in the arts in 1969 and have been involved in them in a continuous fashion ever since.
So I think 38 years is a long time.
I have listed my arts and instructors on this forum, and others

I think I made it clear my opinions and my likes and dislikes of competition.

I think my Background in the Arts and my experiences in my life give me a perspective that I share.

If you want only those who agree with your points sorry,then that is not discussion.

I doubt if my posting my opinions will change peoples outlook on the sport/competition version of Hapkido,as if they feel the need they will try it.

I see that as a promoter you see the upside,I do not.
You like it so much you made it a part of your income base by running the events.
People like MMA/UFC and people run those shows also,but not everyone thinks they are so Great,I do not.

I have bought and watched the DVDs on Pro Hapkido and it is a Korean Version of MMA,I do not watch MMA anymore, and have the same opinions of it as I have posted here of this Korean Version.

Thank you for the Invitation but I will decline,as I have seen this type of stuff before and it is not my cup of tea at this time in my life.

I will also post my opinions as I feel.

I have no goals as promoter or as a school owner to try to make people believe something,so if I post an opinion it is not reflective on an event I promote,it is reflective on my opinions and experiences.

I said why competiton is different than Reality.
If we allow people to believe competiton is street preparedness then we are giving them false hope,as street fights are not entered into geared up and ready for a rules regulated FUN time.

Do you with your 30 years in the arts disagree with my comments of the differences?

30 years ago was training not different,harder,more bloody and injurious as a whole,as compared totoday?

Thank you for the discussion,sorry if my opinions offend you and what you like,but again this is a discussion board and I will post as I feel,even if insulted by you and others for doing so.

[hapk1do]

I think that the Pro-Hapkido thing is great because it shows the diversity of the art. Lets not lose sight of the real "concept" behind Hapkido and say that it lacks some of the facets that are demonstrated by this tournament. I think that Hapkido needs to be represented more in the MMA world because the argument is out there that Hapkido fails to produce effecient fighters..

Also.. I think that what people generally mean when they say "Hapkido Competition" is that the Competition is being held and hosted by Hapkido Associations and these Associations invite/encourage other Hapkidoists to attend, hence the name..

My Hapkido Association here where I live hosts a Traditional Tournament every year.. sometimes even twice a year.. They call it a Traditional Korean Martial Arts Tournament, but most of the people that show up are Hapkido/TKD. They would even allow other MAists to attend if they wanted to.. That's just what they call it.

[nj_howard]

Ho Sin Sul and Nak bub competition at these tournaments are without a doubt hapkido in its "true" form...
As for Ho Shin Sul... maybe I'm misunderstanding you, but IMO it's worth pointing out that Hapkido "in its true form" is destructive. Its Jujutsu-based techniques are designed specifically to damage the human body.

Furthermore, Choi himself emphasized that Hapkido is not a sport, and has nothing to do with competition. He never taught with any orientation at all toward competition. He taught his techniques with the purpose of stopping a fight immediately and decisively, by injuring and / or killing your attacker. Exactly the way they're taught in Hapkido's Aikijujutsu source.

I'm with JimH here. Competition is fine, but it's not real Hapkido. It should be called something else.

[JTMS]

As for Ho Shin Sul... maybe I'm misunderstanding you, but IMO it's worth pointing out that Hapkido "in its true form" is destructive. Its Jujutsu-based techniques are designed specifically to damage the human body.


Furthermore, Choi himself emphasized that Hapkido is not a sport, and has nothing to do with competition. He never taught with any orientation at all toward competition. He taught his techniques with the purpose of stopping a fight immediately and decisively, by injuring and / or killing your attacker. Exactly the way they're taught in Hapkido's Aikijujutsu source.



I'm with JimH here. Competition is fine, but it's not real Hapkido. It should be called something else.


Hi nj howard,

Thanks for your input.

1. So when it is practiced in your school are there not rules of conduct and control? Or are you guys in the E.R. alot?

2. So when you prctice in your school do you kill each other?

What I mean by Ho Sin Sul competition (for those that have not seen it) in it's "true" form is an opportunity of students to practice traditional technique and be scored bu a pannel of qualified judges.

Please excuse me if I made it sound like HSS compitition is a blood bath, it is not.......at least if you know how to fall lol.

[JTMS]

Moolsumaster,
I thought a discussion board allowed one to post their opinions of subjects?

I do not support it,but I also do not discourage others from their quest to try it if they like.


I do not understand your attack on my saying I have been in the arts for a Long time.
I began in the arts in 1969 So I think 38 years is a long time.
I have listed my arts and instructors on this forum, and others

I think I made it clear my opinions and my likes and dislikes of competition.


I see that as a promoter you see the upside,I do not.
You like it so much you made it a part of your income base by running the events.
Thank you for the Invitation but I will decline,as I have seen this type of stuff before and it is not my cup of tea at this time in my life.

I will also post my opinions as I feel.



Do you with your 30 years in the arts disagree with my comments of the differences?

Thank you for the discussion,sorry if my opinions offend you and what you like,but again this is a discussion board and I will post as I feel,even if insulted by you and others for doing so.

Hi JimH,

It is obvious from your post that you feel attacked. Please understand it is my intent to disagree with you NOT make you feel "attacked".

Please also understand that I think it is a bit much to announce that one has been training a LONG time in a public forum. I wonder how much of that LONG time has been in hapkido?

You claim that I am defending Hapkido tournaments because I promote them. OK good point.
You also claim that I defend hapkido tournaments because it is a source of income to me. I hope that you are not trying to say that I am only in it for the money.


Jim I think it is important for us to cheer each other on not bring each other down. I mean we belong to the same Grand Father organization.

Please understand that I feel that the yearly tournament in Dallas is not just my tournament but yours as well, because you are a member of the sponsoring body.

My invataion was not one of challenge but real. Jim please understand that as a member of MHO you will always be welcome to my school or any events that I am a part of as a welcome friend.

Even if you don't see that hapkido tournaments rock! lol

I wish you all the best in hapkido.

[JimH]

I do not feel attacked.
I believe that 38 years in the martial arts is a LONG time,even if in Various arts not one singular art.
As far as my time in Hapkido specific:
12 years in my present system.
Almost 3 years under Ik Jo Kang
1 year under Tong Lee
almost 1 year under Chin Il Chang

So Hapkido specific almost 17 years.

The other years were in TKD,Karate type arts,reality based arts,wing chun,boxing,jujitsu and other ventures into seeing what other arts and systems were and are about.

Master Murphy,
I am not trying to bring you and or your event down.
I am just posting my opinion of the clip put up on this site.
You are an instructor,promoter and competiton organizer,so I imagine you love what you do,I also assume you make money ?,as organizer do not do it for long at a loss,you are providing an outlet for a need,that need is the Hapkido competition.

As said it is not my cup of tea ,similarly to MMA,and I disagree with what people assume they are gaining from it,as Romulus stated.

I do see that people need an outlet for what they do.
I see that some people want competition.
As said I did it and wanted competition when I was younger,just not in Hapkido or Jujitsu or aikido,most of the competitions use linear arts only ,this is for safety factors.
If it is seen as fun and competiton,but not street preparedness and not true application of Hapkido for Self defense ,then fine.

You see it as Hapkido,I do not ,sorry,on this point we agree to disagree.

I wish you great luck in all you do and in your promotions and competitions.

I have nothing against you,we share the same lineage , a little more so under GM In Sun Seo,but all here share the same lineage to Choi,but we do not have to agree with everything to be of the same art.

It is just dialogue ,at times of differing opinions,not hate or dislike,as most here do not and will not ever know or see each other outside of the written word.

All the Best

[nj_howard]

Hi nj howard,

Thanks for your input.

1. So when it is practiced in your school are there not rules of conduct and control? Or are you guys in the E.R. alot?

2. So when you prctice in your school do you kill each other?

You know, you'd probably contribute to a more constructive discussion if you could drop the sarcastic remarks that you seem to aim at most of us.

Just something for you to think about.

[Thomas]

On the original topic, I see sparring/free fighting as a very useful tool for training. I am not a huge fan of organized competitions as a competitor (although as a spectator, yes!) because I think in levelling the playing field, assigning weight classes/etc, applying rules for safety and so on that a lot is taken away from the idea of a "real fight".

However, as a "tool", sparring/free fighting in classroom (under various rules) is a good way to try out your skills against a resisting opponent. Organized competition is a good way to try out your skills in a controlled (and relatively safe) format against people from other schools and background. So, I have no problem recommending either option.

Now, as for the whole competition =/= real fighting idea or along the notion that we as HKDin cannot spar becuase our techniques are "too dangerous", I don't agree with that. One of the strengths of HKD is being well rounded and able to deal with various levels of force. Therefore, limiting ourselves to rules to do a bit of training (sparring) with a partner shouldn't be too much of a stretch.

I did free fighting in traditional HKD in Korea without problems and we do free fighting at our Combat Hapkido school here. It's just a "tool" to use to train your skills against a resiting opponent. Sometimes our students will come in and spar the TKD guys (unfortunately the HKD guys usually "break the rules'!) and it's good training for everyone. I'd love to send some of our HKD guys to a TKD tournament - it'd be good experience (win or lose)...

[JTMS]

On the original topic, I see sparring/free fighting as a very useful tool for training. I am not a huge fan of organized competitions as a competitor (although as a spectator, yes!) because I think in levelling the playing field, assigning weight classes/etc, applying rules for safety and so on that a lot is taken away from the idea of a "real fight".

However, as a "tool", sparring/free fighting in classroom (under various rules) is a good way to try out your skills against a resisting opponent. Organized competition is a good way to try out your skills in a controlled (and relatively safe) format against people from other schools and background. So, I have no problem recommending either option.

Now, as for the whole competition =/= real fighting idea or along the notion that we as HKDin cannot spar becuase our techniques are "too dangerous", I don't agree with that. One of the strengths of HKD is being well rounded and able to deal with various levels of force. Therefore, limiting ourselves to rules to do a bit of training (sparring) with a partner shouldn't be too much of a stretch.



Thomas,

Very well said!! :)

[timex]

ditto!

[JimH]

Thomas ,nice post.

Sparring,along the lines of TKD within the art of Hapkido teaches differences not required or encouraged in Hapkido,in my opinion.

If we spar,along the lines of TKD,as the clip we saw shows,we ,as Hapkidoists,change the method and mindset of attack.

Hapkido,uses angles of attack,circular energy,in movement as well as against joint application.
We attack the lead leg and stop forward momentum of the opponent.
We close the gap and try to get inside ,soften the opponent and do our thing.

TKD styled sparring,as seen in the video,teach linear mostly application.
It teaches a give and take exchange as everyone moves in kicks,then moves out to redistance for more kicks and or they kick get inside punch and move off/back off and redistance.
Few move in kick punch and stay inside,the clip shows some who run in and take down.(not something I want students to get used to doing in Hapkido,or any thing else)
Few fighting in this linear fashion,as seen on this clip and most others, use angles of attack or circular movements and entries.

If we look at most sparring be it Boxing,karate or TKD type,most people stand center line to centerline ,squared off in front,we should be stressing being off centerline contact.

Again I appreciate sport and sparring,if they are truly applicable to the art.
Sparring ,to me ,for Hapkido is not truly applicable,again my view.
We are teaching one mindset for Hapkido and another for sport sparring,if we say we teach Self Defense use arts then the mental confusion of how and when to apply which is scewed,in my opinion.

If we stress TKD type sport and students train for the sport mostly,when in confrontation they will respond with that which they do most,sport.

These are just my opinions to give another take on things,nothing is right or wrong just something to think about in what we do,and what we claim we teach.

[JTMS]

I have found that people that don't support sparring or don't like to spar are usually the ones who are afraid to get hit.

Both Bong Soo Han and In Sun Seo had/have sparring in their programs. I have found it a very useful teaching tool.

I will note that tournament sparring only allows us to practice certain controlled aspects of the art. Please keep in mind that we are talking about TOURNAMENT sparring here. A hapkido tournament is simply a "game" where students can get together and practice a portion of their skills.

What does tournament sparring teach us?

1. What it feels like to get hit by a person you do not know, who is not a teacher or class mate.

2. How to overcome fear and "the butterflies".

3. Sportsmanship and a positive attitude.

4. Make new friends!

5. Also other competition is available at these tournaments for those that do not spar such as nak bub and ho sin sul.

I think the ONLY time tournament sparring is bad.......perhaps when it is presented to students as the end all be all of self defense. It should be stressed to our students that tournament sparring only represents a small portion of the tools that we have available to defend ones self. Having said that I think tournaments can be a great character builder and have many benefits.

[JimH]

Quote
"I have found that people that don't support sparring or don't like to spar are usually the ones who are afraid to get hit."

I think that there are some who like to compete and some who do not.
Let's see ,some try Martial arts for Fitness,some for sport,some for History and traditions and some for self defense.

Throughout peoples time in the arts needs change.

Some enter an art,they learn the linear arts,they are young and want to test their skills in the belief that what they do will cover,sport,fitness and self defense,which is not true.

Me ,for example,
I trained in the arts and competed in tournaments from 70-74,then in the mid to late 80s.( Henry Cho's,Aaron Banks,Tommy May,as some)
I Boxed in The Marine Corps.

Through those times :
I fought as a youth on the streets of the Bronx.
I had some fights in the military.
I was a bouncer.
I worked as an LEO in a housing Project.

In all that Time I had fights and saw many a fight, and Guess what,Not a Single One,looked like any sparring I had done or seen.

Maybe the first move or two by the first guy to fire off nothing after that.
No exchanges and giving back space,no high kicks,no nothing that could be seen and determined to be any art,no less a specific art.

What I saw what worked and won:
Stopping the opponents forward momentum.
Moving off centerline to angles,
closing the gap,
Being inside the oppoenets weapons and beating them from inside.
(wow sounds like skills of Hapkido,lol)

So to me,sparring and competiton ,in the world of Reality is and was a waste.
A learning experience,a test as a youth,a mistaken belief that sport was reality.

Realism,they are nothing alike.
Sport is Sport,True Self Defense is True Self Defense.

Hapkido is supposed to be true Self Defense ,yet we want to change it to, and make it, sport.

Sport and Reality:
Mike Tyson has a street fight with Mitch Green on the streets of NY.
Tyson breaks his hand on Greens Head.
(maybe not enough sparring.Maybe he didn't like getting hit)

Renzo Gracie,gets mugged on the streets of New York,he says he forgot for a moment he was on the street,tried for a Shoot of the oppoenets legs,misses,hits the concrete and breaks his knee.
(Maybe not enough sparring)

Two wing chun masters,William Cheung and Emin Boztepe fight.
Here is an art that spars all the time,using center line control.
Show me the Wing Chun in this clip?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=szdF1nIAfpk
(maybe not enough sparring)

Street and sparring are different,so is the mindset for both.

If you think you can say,sparring and sport are a part of what we do but when the crap hits the fan do this instead,it is wrong and cannot be done unless trained to be done.
What we do most in training is what we will do.

Hey but what do I know??
Again just my crazy opinions.

[Thomas]

Jim, I can see your points and I agree with them for the most part. For me, where the disconnect lies is in the whole aspect of "applying" what we do. Sure, some of us have grown up and experience scuffles with locals/brothers/sisters/whatever or even had some competition in arts like boxing/TKD/wrestling, etc. However, there are students out there who never experience that - for us, we try to rectify that by incorporating some sparring/free fighting in the class. Plus, by sparring and free fighting in class it gives students a better idea of what works against a resisting opponent and what won't.

Sparring does not equal "real fighting" but does give students a similar experience. Schools that don't use free fighting or sparring have to give students this experience/application somehow... most likely within a set of safety rules as well. What are ways to train this without using sparring as a tool?

[JimH]

Here is a method of Reality application that I have done in my training and try to incorporate to some degree when students stand in front of me during training.

When a new student arrives at the school for the first class,
Approach the student and tell them that you are going to grab them,push them,pull them and yell at them and you want them to do something to get out and or away.

You then Close the gap grab the student and start yelling give me your money,and what ever else comes into your head,push them to the wall and start dragging them along the wall,or push them to the wall and then pull them away from it,yelling at them to do something.
You know what you get the first time?
Nothing,Nothing at all.
I have seen it done with novices to experienced martial artists and they all do NOTHING.
Shocked and overloaded with input,this is not duplicated in sparring (my opinion )

After a few training sessions,Grab them,without warning,and push them ,pull them and scream at them,get them to do something.

After a few more sessions they are again grabbed and pushed or pulled with intent and they must respond with an IMMEDIATE response of some kind,preferably with techniques learned ,but not restricted to specific techniques as they may have a form of mind freeze,(Fear,rapid heart rate,adrenaline rush)so any response that gets them free is good.

The longer the student stays the more they should be able to do when attacked inside punching and kicking range,which happens to be the area of distance most real attacks come, (not agreed to fights that may start off in a bar or club which starts with talk,escalates to an agreed fight and the parties go outside and fight as if it were a contest to start)

This to me is more replicable and more realistic to an attack,at later points weapons can be introduced.
(this method ,unlike sparring,can be duplicated to all points in the attack and the victim can see what options they had/have at points along the way)
Immediate feedback,with out a need to video replay at some later time as with sparring events.

When a person comes before me in class and we train specific responses,I show them moving off angle,moving into the opponent,how to strike to get a body response that fits the technique I want,I ask them to attack with intent and conviction ,push,pull,yell,what ever they need to make it real,I respond in kind,with Hapkido principles.
They pull,I go in,they push ,I go back and pull them along into an attack,I keep the gap close and try to do it from the cold side,I use attacks (strikes and leg attacks) to get body balance displacement.

This to me is more a form of realistic appplication than sparring,but again to each his own,we must give the student that which we believe works.

I believe my application develops a more immediate and applicable response to real time,real street type attacks.

As said I train in Reality based arts and have done so for a few years,I saw the ability of these concepts to be used by all Martial artists so I apply it as such.

Just my nutty opinion of how to instill realism,while using the art we study,over creating a new form of application based on sport.

Again,everyone must train their people in a way that they believe correct,no rights and wrongs, till the student or family member comes back and says an incident happened and what they learned worked or failed.

[Yakka]

Hi JimH & Moosulmaster,
this is a lively debate indeed, I do see a little of both sides here, when I originally started martial arts (Judo 32 years ago) for fitness but also to look after myself, the sparring aspect 'randori' is the only way to make things work both sport wise & for real situations, it is a state of mind thing. As I changed arts to Shotokan karate (which i thoroughly enjoyed for 16 years) to get the feel for distance fighting ( i.e. kicking, punching etc, to enhance my arsenal of defence and fill what I thought was missing, the sparring element is very important in developing reflex skills, balance, speed, co-ordination ,timing,accuracy, focus, but and here is the but, I found that when then club becomes sport & competion oriented it loses focus on the point of the martial art for me which is my own self presevation and that of the people I care about in a real life situation. Scoring a point does not do it for me in a competion, Some competions have become like a game of Tag ( tig if your from the UK,lol).
Since I took a few years off, I decided to persue a martial art that just looks at my total preservation by any means & Authentic Hapkido seems to fit the bill for me so far, the joint manipulations and pressure point techniques are very good, now combining my experiences of Judo & karate with this is now very good for me. I do miss experimental in-club sparring to a degree but I just don't like the sporting aspect too much

[Thomas]

Nice post, Jim - some good alternatives to "sparring"...



... and as these techniques (incl. sparring) are all just "tools", they can be "mixed-and-matched" as well.

[Hapkido7]

I agree------