Chipshop...

[Mr Punch]

Is a place in...

Devon,

That's right...

England! :D

Welcome to the English culture thread (place name title inspired by the Welsh culture thread!)

This is a thread to celebrate Englishness. Of course, our British countrymen (plus ex-colonials, or anybody else who wants to stick it to us!) are more than welcome to join, but if so, please do it in the spirit of Britishness.

This means of course, sarcastic self-deprecation and taking the (family site) are welcome, but downright deregatory racism is not.

These are two characteristics I think of as part of Britishness in general, and as an Englishman, Englishness in particular - and as such this is what I want this thread to be about: your perception of our traits. Of course, this is not to say that good English traits are exclusive to Englishness, nor is it to say Englishness doesn't have its negative sides (as someone who has fought in the streets against Nazi skins and heavy-handed riot police at various occasions I well know), but please don't let this turn into a slanging match.

One reason I wanted to start this thread is to get some discussion about the govt's plans for British Day and cultural identity tests for new adults and immigrants. I think they could be a good idea, but just mention them and it's already a minefield!

We could start with something simple like:

1) Do you think we need a British National Day?

If we don't need one, do you think it wouldn't hurt? Or that the very idea is negative?

If you want one, when do you think would be a good day (and why)?

I'll come back and answer later, but I've been on here long enough today...

But BTW briefly I do think it's not necessarily a bad idea, I'll go into more detail later.

Another brief set of heavier questions for consideration is:

2) Do you think it's worth it trying to keep Britain together? Or, do you want to see more devolution or even independence for the Celtic countries? How do you think devolution could make Britain stronger? How do you think Celtic countries contribute to Britishness? Britishness is often seen as synonymous to Englishness... while I think this has to change, do you think it's true to some extent? Do you think it will change?

Feel free to ponder 'out loud', add your own questions, and of course answers.

[Su lin]

Mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm chippy tea :D


Nice thread btw, I will ponder over my nice cuppa :D

[Hiroji]

Ill put the kettle on!

[Moosey]

Hobnob?

[Hiroji]

I think due to recent immigration (although uk has always been a immigrant country) i think we are losing our more traditional identity, whatever you may claim that to be!

Things change, things never stay the same forever so i think trying to promote past traditions isnt going to work imo.

[Hiroji]

Curry is the #1 dish in the UK!!!! :D

[Su lin]

Hobnob?

You know,I have only recently begun appreciating the Hobnob again. :)

[Mr Punch]

Hobnobs...

oooh, don't!

Maybe I shouldn't have started this thread if it's just gonna be talking about that kind of thing... not that I'm hankering after a more serious discussion: it's just I live in Japan and hobnobs are but a distant memory. Plus the marmite is 725 yen (3 quid) per 125 g. At least you can get good British beer over here, but still not as good as back in the Shire of course! :cry:

BTW, Hiroji, as I come from a long line of Midlanders (a strong Saxon kingdom - Saxons being foreigners anyway!) with a good mix of Northumbrians (Saxons and Danes anyone?), more than a few Scots and Irish, and with nose that was distinctly French or Roman (*spits!* :D ) before it was broken four times into a more Saxon shape, being golden haired and green eyed, while my brother is raven haired and chocolate eyed...

I can definitely agree we've always been an immigrant country...

and no, I don't think that foisting our nationality on us will help... that's not very English now is it! (Well maybe the foisting is, but the being foisted upon isn't.)

Oops, said I was going... later chaps (and chappesses).

[Johnno]

This is a thread to celebrate Englishness. Of course, our British countrymen (plus ex-colonials, or anybody else who wants to stick it to us!) are more than welcome to join, but if so, please do it in the spirit of Britishness.So do you mean Englishness or Britishness? :confused:

1) Do you think we need a British National Day?No. I think the idea of it is very un-British.

Another brief set of heavier questions for consideration is:

2) Do you think it's worth it trying to keep Britain together? Or, do you want to see more devolution or even independence for the Celtic countries? How do you think devolution could make Britain stronger? How do you think Celtic countries contribute to Britishness? Britishness is often seen as synonymous to Englishness... while I think this has to change, do you think it's true to some extent? Do you think it will change?Devolution for Scotland and Wales will go as far as the people of those countries want it to. And greater devolution can only help the relations between them and England.

The idea of 'Britishness' was just a way for the English establishment to try to get the Scots and the Welsh on their side. But with devolution, it's a busted flush.

The Celtic fightback started in Ireland, but it's hard to say where it will end.

[boards]

Hmmm National British Day. What would that involve, getting beaten in all the sports that they invented :yeleyes: :p



Boards runs and hides...........

[Moosey]

The Celtic fightback started in Ireland, but it's hard to say where it will end.
I reckon the next step is independence for Yorkshire and Cornwall. Then England will make a pact with Yorkshire and Cornwall to team up and force London to declare independence. Yorkshire will only agree to take part on the proviso that the other counties help to destroy Lancashire. London will be cast out into the sea as a new floating island and Lancashire will be raised to the ground and the land used to grow potatoes.

[Mr Punch]

So do you mean Englishness or Britishness? :confused:Well, that's part of the very point of Englishness IMO... it's a confusing subject. I consider myself as English as the next Englishman, but I'm British in a very literal way as you can see by my post on my individual heritage. Hence the question at the end of the first post about elements of Britishness in Englishness and Scottishness and all the rest of it. The thread is meant to be about Englishness, but since many many English people are a good mix of English and Celtic and thus inseperable in some ways they are indivisible and English people have more to lose with independence than the other countries, and not just from some warped colonial overlord kind of way.

No. I think the idea of it is very un-British.Many people say that... So what traits of Britishness do you see this going against?

Devolution for Scotland and Wales will go as far as the people of those countries want it to. Agreed and that's fair enough. And greater devolution can only help the relations between them and England.How? Why?

The idea of 'Britishness' was just a way for the English establishment to try to get the Scots and the Welsh on their side. But with devolution, it's a busted flush.Was! But as British Englishman I don't feel that it's some false label foisted on me as a serf sheep from some feudal/imperial hangover, I feel it's as real as any claim to an 'English' nationality.

[Johnno]

Well, that's part of the very point of Englishness IMO... it's a confusing subject. I consider myself as English as the next Englishman, but I'm British in a very literal way as you can see by my post on my individual heritage. Hence the question at the end of the first post about elements of Britishness in Englishness and Scottishness and all the rest of it. The thread is meant to be about Englishness, but since many many English people are a good mix of English and Celtic and thus inseperable in some ways they are indivisible and English people have more to lose with independence than the other countries, and not just from some warped colonial overlord kind of way.Damn right! :D

Many people say that... So what traits of Britishness do you see this going against?British people traditionally aren't into this whole flag-waving malarky. It's yet another tacky import from the USA.

Was! But as British Englishman I don't feel that it's some false label foisted on me as a serf sheep from some feudal/imperial hangover, I feel it's as real as any claim to an 'English' nationality.I suppose there are many sides to 'Britishness', and I was only considering one of them. I'll concede that point.

[Mr Punch]

Hmmm National British Day. What would that involve, getting beaten in all the sports that they invented :yeleyes: :p
We don't seem to need a special day to do that!

[Mr Punch]

I reckon the next step is independence for Yorkshire and Cornwall. ...Hehehe, actually, I was debating the wisdom of starting the thread with a placename from Devon...! :eek:

[Johnno]

I reckon the next step is independence for Yorkshire and Cornwall. Then England will make a pact with Yorkshire and Cornwall to team up and force London to declare independence. Yorkshire will only agree to take part on the proviso that the other counties help to destroy Lancashire. London will be cast out into the sea as a new floating island and Lancashire will be raised to the ground and the land used to grow potatoes.
Yorkshire independance would make a lot of sense. :)

[Polar Bear]

Chips, Fried Rice and Curry sauce now that is a true british dish.

The Bear.

[Hiroji]

Cheesy chips and beans...now were talking.

[cheesypeas]

Cheesy chips and beans...now were talking.


WTH...are cheesy chips???

[Mr Punch]

British people traditionally aren't into this whole flag-waving malarky. It's yet another tacky import from the USA.Really? You're old enough to remember the Silver Jubilee, the royal wedding, Torville and Dean at the Olympics, Cram, Ovett and Coe, aren't you? My neighbourhood was definitely not monarchist in any way, but you couldn't count the number of Union Jacks in the streets.

[Topher]

1) Do you think we need a British National Day?
I think that multiculturalism is a failed concept. It promotes the segregation of groups into there own communities. It tends to highlight the difference. And it creates the political correctness of being scared of offending people.

So I think we need to encourage people to embrace the culture they choose to join.

That being said, you can’t force ‘Britishness’ (or any culture) on people as it wouldn’t be genuine. You need to focus on the mechanism that allow it to develop. Obviously if we tell them to forget about their culture, they will likely go deeper into it.

If a British National Day helps this process all the better. But what would it entail, and why would we need a special say to do this?

British people traditionally aren't into this whole flag-waving malarky. It's yet another tacky import from the USA.
I see your point in some sense – we don’t just wave a flag simply for the sake of doing so, just for being British, which is what Americans do. But when it comes to certain occasions, such as sports events (and also what Mr Punch posted) we’re out with the best of them.

[Yossarian]

As far as I can see the only difference between English/Scots/Irish/Welsh are the accents. Were all the same now apart from maybe a few regional dishes(jellied eels, haggis etc) and the Scots are harder than the rest :D

I'll give you a Scottish perspective on devolution. Since i've been alive the UK government hasnt cared much about any part of the UK other than the south east. Scots feel they had a bad deal from Westminster during Thatchers reign so when given the chance to vote for some regional powers of thier own they took it.

Even though the Scottish parliment has limited powers, some of its decisions have caused resentment south of the border. There are no tuition fees at uni's for example and theres the West Lothian question(Scottish labour Mps voted for tuition fees in England). I can see why people are annoyed about this, Im quite jelous of the free prescriptions in Wales. Scotland has always tended to vote left wing, now that there are no major left wing parties in Westminster you can expect a swing to parties like the SNP.

[Hiroji]

WTH...are cheesy chips???

haha!

Your telling me you really dont know??...

...well, they are chips with grated cheese on top...add beans and wallah!!

lovely jubbly! :D

I like it more than Welsh rarebit anyway! :p

[Chimpcheng]

...well, they are chips with grated cheese on top...add beans and wallah!!


Tut, tut, typical English, don't you mean voilá? :D

[Hiroji]

Tut, tut, typical English, don't you mean voilá? :D

lol true!!

Isnt "Wallah" something Indian?!?! :D

[Chimpcheng]

Not sure, isn't it one of Bruce Lee's war cries?

WALLAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!! :D

[Johnno]

Really? You're old enough to remember the Silver Jubilee, the royal wedding, Torville and Dean at the Olympics, Cram, Ovett and Coe, aren't you? My neighbourhood was definitely not monarchist in any way, but you couldn't count the number of Union Jacks in the streets.I think the blue-rinse brigade got excited about the Queen's jubilee, but most I reckon most people were completely disinterested. And sporting events are a different kettle of fish entirely.

I was thinking of things like flying a rlag in your garden. The first time I went to the states I thought it was hilarious the way so many yanks did it. I figured they probably needed reminding! ;) :D

But now you see the same thing more and more over here. And I think it's very un-British. We're supposed to be undemonstrative for goodness sake! :D

[Johnno]

I think that multiculturalism is a failed concept. It promotes the segregation of groups into there own communities. It tends to highlight the difference. And it creates the political correctness of being scared of offending people.

So I think we need to encourage people to embrace the culture they choose to join.

That being said, you can’t force ‘Britishness’ (or any culture) on people as it wouldn’t be genuine. You need to focus on the mechanism that allow it to develop. Obviously if we tell them to forget about their culture, they will likely go deeper into it.

If a British National Day helps this process all the better. But what would it entail, and why would we need a special say to do this?So then wouldn't we be encouraging the political correctness of everyone feeling they have to be 'British' enough?

I think you are right when you say you can't force it. It has to happen naturally.

I see your point in some sense – we don’t just wave a flag simply for the sake of doing so, just for being British, which is what Americans do. But when it comes to certain occasions, such as sports events (and also what Mr Punch posted) we’re out with the best of them.I thought you were American? :confused:

[Mr Punch]

I think that multiculturalism is a failed concept. ...You need to focus on the mechanism that allow it to develop. Agreed.

If a British National Day helps this process all the better. But what would it entail, and why would we need a special say to do this?Well, you should do it in an idiom of typical understatement: first off, announce to the public that they're getting another national holiday! Everyone would be delighted! Then, in your choice, choose something suitably historic yet obscure as an excuse for the date... say, the date the Magna Carta was signed (June 15th or 16th was it? Hell, make them both holidays! :D ), or St Edmund's (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edmund_the_Martyr) Day (Nov 20th - though I like the June idea better!).

[Mr Punch]

I think the blue-rinse brigade got excited about the Queen's jubilee, but most I reckon most people were completely disinterested. It was everywhere at the time, and while it would be unBritish to be excited about it and not to moan about it, I reckon there were a lot more than just the blue-rinsers out there.

And sporting events are a different kettle of fish entirely.Buuuut, sporting events often set the benchmark for the rest of popular culture to follow don't they? Goits who flew the flag for the Falklands flew the Union Jack... as did those eighties' sports fans I mentioned... it's more recently that people have started to fly St George's Cross in response to various sporting events perceived as 'England' 's achievements (or lack of!) or struggle. It's from there and the accompanying lad culture resurgence that this 'English' national pride has sprung from, no?

I was thinking of things like flying a rlag in your garden. ... We're supposed to be undemonstrative for goodness sake! :DSure... that's why we need St Edmund! :D National pride through absurdist reductionism! :D

[Mr Punch]

As far as I can see the only difference between English/Scots/Irish/Welsh are the accents. Were all the same now apart from maybe a few regional dishes(jellied eels, haggis etc) That surprises me. I wouldn't have said your opinion was representative... even as a British Englishman! ;)

and the Scots are harder than the rest :D Another thing the Celtic nations and their Anglo-Saxon/Norse counterparts have always shared: a love of, or at least pride in, fighting.

I'll give you a Scottish perspective on devolution. Since i've been alive the UK government hasnt cared much about any part of the UK other than the south east. Scots feel they had a bad deal from Westminster during Thatchers reign so when given the chance to vote for some regional powers of thier own they took it.Fair enough, but since the govt is in the southeast and the southeast has the highest proportion and concentration of the population by far, this bias is natural. Doesn't necessarily make it any better - but sometimes where the Scots see anti-Scottish bias in the regional powers it's not necessarily any worse than an anti-Brummie bias, or anti-Scouser bias, surely?

Where's the Mercian Parliament!? :D

Even though the Scottish parliment has limited powers, some of its decisions have caused resentment south of the border. There are no tuition fees at uni's for example and theres the West Lothian question(Scottish labour Mps voted for tuition fees in England). That is pretty damned insulting. Another example of a lack of joined-up thinking (cliche though it's fast becoming).

Scotland has always tended to vote left wing, now that there are no major left wing parties in Westminster you can expect a swing to parties like the SNP.Which is also precisely the problem with the BNP and Plaid Cymru. And no, I'm not equating the mindset of Plaid with the BNP, but individual instances of extreme racism aside (and I've met some real thugs who supported Plaid too) the separatism is a worry for those like me who believe we are better off together (and even like the company! ;) )

New Labour's cynicism, with the tacit support of the cynics all through British society, is destroying Britishness at the very same time as trying to recreate (falsely qualify) it, debating its essence and lamenting its loss!

Maybe.

Vote me! :D

[adouglasmhor]

Agreed.

Well, you should do it in an idiom of typical understatement: first off, announce to the public that they're getting another national holiday! Everyone would be delighted! Then, in your choice, choose something suitably historic yet obscure as an excuse for the date... say, the date the Magna Carta was signed (June 15th or 16th was it? Hell, make them both holidays! :D ), or St Edmund's (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edmund_the_Martyr) Day (Nov 20th - though I like the June idea better!).

These are both dates to do with England, I Was going to suggest the day the act of union was signed but this is apparently may the 1st so it's in use.
11th July James the 1st and 6th's English coronation (union of crowns)?

[Shadow_of_Evil]

and the Scots are harder than the rest

Pffffttt. Come 'on then wee man! pogue muh ho'in!!!
http://home.twcny.rr.com/whitmore/Dan/leprechaun.JPG

Trust me to have made THIS my 1000th post :rolleyes:

[Mr Punch]

These are both dates to do with England, I Was going to suggest the day the act of union was signed but this is apparently may the 1st so it's in use.I'd already thought of a more universally British one; but the signing of the Act of the Union was May 1st and it came into power on Jan 1st... :rolleyes:
11th July James the 1st and 6th's English coronation (union of crowns)?
July would be good...

Or, to celebrate diversity within Britain, I think we should have National Holidays on St David's Day, St Andrew's Day, St Patrick's Day, and St George's or St Edmund's Days... imagine how delighted we would be then! (And maybe somewhat closer to some other developed countries to numbers of National Holidays!) :D

I'm tellin ya, everyone, vote me, it's the only way forward! :D

[Victoria]

:eek: An English thread!!!

:yeleyes:

I wonder how many of those over the pond are utterly confused by England not meaning the whole of Britain after all :rolleyes:

I best get all my English digs in now before I move there!

[Victoria]

A sign outside a secondhand shop in England:

"We exchange anything - bicycles, washing machines, etc.
Why not bring your wife along and get a wonderful bargain."

[Topher]

And sporting events are a different kettle of fish entirely.
There's no difference. It is still aligning yourself to a national identity, then promoting it.

So then wouldn't we be encouraging the political correctness of everyone feeling they have to be 'British' enough?
I don't think so. We would not be making them feel they have to be British - as I said that, can't be forced - instead we need to encourage people embrace the culture and to some extent the values of their host country, instead of encouraging segregation and separation which I think is a product of multiculturalism. I think some things should be a requirement though, like language lesions.

When I refer to political correctness I’m talking about the fear against offending people of different cultures or religions. Institutions, local governments and schools are anxious about offending people in the most ridiculous ways (flying a flag, nursery rhymes, saying ‘Merry Christmas’ etc)

I thought you were American? :confused:
Me. American! Nahhh :woo: I’m London born and bread, hence ‘London Town’ as my location. :D

[cheesypeas]

I like it more than Welsh rarebit anyway! :p


AHHH...but have you ever had a buck rarebit? :p

[Mr Punch]

like language lesions. Sounds nasty. Not sure we should be promoting those.

[Topher]

Sounds nasty. Not sure we should be promoting those.
LOL :o

[Mr Punch]

So now Brown wants intelligence separated from government... shouldn't be too hard... in fact I'd've said that was another trad aspect of Britishness...! :D

[alister]

I agree there is a distinction to be made between "British" and "English" and for me, that distinction is where you personally feel allied.

I would consider myself British. My family history is spread right across these isles and that's what I'm made of. It's a very personal thing.

As for what makes someone British (for some, read English)? I think a pretty self-effacing, cynical outlook, humour, resilience and a huge sense of morality that draws a line not to be crossed. Witness the conflicts in modern history (excepting Iraq II and Afghanistan - that's Blair's mess, nothing to do with the majority population!). When Britain feels aggrieved it acts and overcomes overwhelming odds time and again. Politicians beware - there's a history of mob mentality in Britain - it doesn't pop up often, but when it does, batton down the hatches.

A nice light hearted look at this is the Ealing Comedy "Passport to Pimlico" when a historical curiosity leads part of post war London to declare independence. Good fun but sums up the British spirit for me.

[Moosey]

Me. American! Nahhh :woo: I’m London born and bread, hence ‘London Town’ as my location. :D
There's another guy with a really similar username who's American.

[Johnno]

I don't think so. We would not be making them feel they have to be British - as I said that, can't be forced - instead we need to encourage people embrace the culture and to some extent the values of their host country, instead of encouraging segregation and separation which I think is a product of multiculturalism. I think some things should be a requirement though, like language lesions.Personally, I see 'multiculturalism' as simply being a recognition of reality, rather than the bogeyman which certain sections of the media like to pretend it is. What is the alternative to multiculturalism? To pretend that we are all as English as Enid Blyton, or to try to force people to adhere to some outdated notion of 'Englishness' just to make the editor of the Daily Mail happy?

When I refer to political correctness I’m talking about the fear against offending people of different cultures or religions. Institutions, local governments and schools are anxious about offending people in the most ridiculous ways (flying a flag, nursery rhymes, saying ‘Merry Christmas’ etc)
That is one example of 'political correctness'. Another example would be the fear of following your own culture or religion in case it offends those who want to pretend that we are all the same. It is becoming very trendy to knock 'multiculturalism' - so which is the real 'political correctness' now?

Me. American! Nahhh :woo: I’m London born and bread, hence ‘London Town’ as my location. :DI realised that you are London-based, but I'm sure you once used some ghastly Americanism like 'gotten', and so I have assumed ever since that you were an American living over here!

Apologies for defaming your good name. ;) :D

[Topher]

Personally, I see 'multiculturalism' as simply being a recognition of reality
But the fact of the matter is it encourages people to segregate into their own cultural communities. While I’m got saying everyone must all covert to a single culture, people should to what they can to integrate into the community, and into society, and part of this is acknowledging the culture of the host country.

or to try to force people to adhere to some outdated notion of 'Englishness' just to make the editor of the Daily Mail happy?
Tell me where I advocated force? Otherwise strawman.

Another example would be the fear of following your own culture or religion in case it offends those who want to pretend that we are all the same.
Another strawman. Since when did I assert that we are all the same?

I’m simply referring to the matter that nothing, at all, should be protected from rational criticism. Political correctness stops this.

[alister]

How our current "politically correct" multiculturalism policy is not working:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6174303.stm

[Johnno]

But the fact of the matter is it encourages people to segregate into their own cultural communities. While I’m got saying everyone must all covert to a single culture, people should to what they can to integrate into the community, and into society, and part of this is acknowledging the culture of the host country.People tend to form their own cultural communities anyway. 'Multiculturalism' is simply a recognition of this fact.

Tell me where I advocated force? Otherwise strawman.I didn't say that you did advocate force. I was making the point that there is no realistic alternative to 'multiculturalsim'. Please try to keep up.

Another strawman. Since when did I assert that we are all the same?
You're really on a roll now Homer! :D It's like trying to have a conversation with an eight-year-old who'se just learned a new word! ;)

I’m simply referring to the matter that nothing, at all, should be protected from rational criticism. Political correctness stops this.No kidding, Einstein! :rolleyes:

[alister]

People tend to form their own cultural communities anyway. 'Multiculturalism' is simply a recognition of this fact.

Nothing wrong with cultural communities - the problem starts when they become physically isolated communities...ghettos if you like.

Then there's absolutely no incentive to integrate - same language spoken everywhere, including all the shops... signs in health centres all in your own language etc etc - no need to go outside your own community for anything.

This breeds exclusion - both for the people within that community and for people from outside...by this I mean my own experience of living in Preston, Lancs. I had to walk through Deepdale to get to work. Those that know Preston will know that this is a predomininantly Asian area. I was subject to racial abuse and significant threats to my safety several times over as a white guy in "their" area.

And then we all wonder why there are riots in Burnley and racially motivated attacks? Simple - no integration. No incentive to ever do so. All the myths and misunderstanding have their perfect breeding ground maintained. Can't help feeling it's all too far gone.

Contrast this against a Mela festival that I went to where I live now. Here, there's no distinguishable geographic community, but at the Mela, there was a celebration of all the cultures in the town and it was a great day in the local park attended by just about every culture you care to think of. This was multiculturalism.

One culture ghettos are not multiculturalism in action, yet social policy and political correctness allows this to happen unchecked.

[Johnno]

Nothing wrong with cultural communities - the problem starts when they become physically isolated communities...ghettos if you like.

Then there's absolutely no incentive to integrate - same language spoken everywhere, including all the shops... signs in health centres all in your own language etc etc - no need to go outside your own community for anything.

This breeds exclusion - both for the people within that community and for people from outside...by this I mean my own experience of living in Preston, Lancs. I had to walk through Deepdale to get to work. Those that know Preston will know that this is a predomininantly Asian area. I was subject to racial abuse and significant threats to my safety several times over as a white guy in "their" area.

And then we all wonder why there are riots in Burnley and racially motivated attacks? Simple - no integration. No incentive to ever do so. All the myths and misunderstanding have their perfect breeding ground maintained. Can't help feeling it's all too far gone.

Contrast this against a Mela festival that I went to where I live now. Here, there's no distinguishable geographic community, but at the Mela, there was a celebration of all the cultures in the town and it was a great day in the local park attended by just about every culture you care to think of. This was multiculturalism.

One culture ghettos are not multiculturalism in action, yet social policy and political correctness allows this to happen unchecked.The 'ghettoisation' effect is a bad thing, but it isn't the result of 'multiculturalism'. People emigrating to another country will inevitably tend to start off living physically close to friends and relatives who have already settled there. Hostility from the 'host' comunity tends to be the biggest factor in encouraging many immigrants to stay within their 'own areas' where they feel safer.

I think this is why it tends to be in the cities that you find a better 'upward movement' from the original starting neighbourhoods out to the suburbs, whereas in smaller places it tends to be much harder; so the 'ghettoisation' effect is much worse in places like northern mill towns (e.g. Dewsbury) than in a large multi-cultural city (e.g. Leeds.)

[Bassmonkey]

Why do we need a British national day?

We have St Georges day, If anything that should be a national holiday!

[alister]

Why do we need a British national day?

We have St Georges day, If anything that should be a national holiday!


Nah...why celebrate some Turkish religious zealot? Plus there are already bank holidays at that time of year - something in the stretch between August and Xmas would be nice.

Trafalgar day has been mooted a few times (October) - a commemoration of Britain's victory over Napoleon's plans to invade britain.

There's also Battle of Britain day (September) - commemorating "The Few" that overcame overwhelming odds to stop the luftwaffe gaining air superiority which would undoubtedly have led to the unstoppable land invasion of Britain by Nazi forces.

[Johnno]

Why do we need a British national day?

We have St Georges day, If anything that should be a national holiday!St George is the patron saint of England, so it would hardly be inclusive for the rest of Britain!

[Bassmonkey]

True, but with the whole scotland and wales potentially succseeding it kind of made sense i thought, also they both have there own flags, any united nation would have just a the one!

Its all very confusing methinks!

[Satsui_No_Hadou]

We do have one....the union jack.

[cheesypeas]

We do have one....the union jack.

Whaaat?????????

:confused: :confused:

[Hiroji]

The 'ghettoisation' effect is a bad thing, but it isn't the result of 'multiculturalism'. People emigrating to another country will inevitably tend to start off living physically close to friends and relatives who have already settled there. Hostility from the 'host' comunity tends to be the biggest factor in encouraging many immigrants to stay within their 'own areas' where they feel safer.

I think this is why it tends to be in the cities that you find a better 'upward movement' from the original starting neighbourhoods out to the suburbs, whereas in smaller places it tends to be much harder; so the 'ghettoisation' effect is much worse in places like northern mill towns (e.g. Dewsbury) than in a large multi-cultural city (e.g. Leeds.)


I agree to some extent Johnno!

But there are plenty of ghettos is Leeds, Chapletown and Little London spring to mind.

My dad lives in Dewsbury, and it isnt as much a ghetto as say Chapeltown, Dewsbury and Mirfield are nearly all asian and are actually nice areas now.

[Topher]

People tend to form their own cultural communities anyway. 'Multiculturalism' is simply a recognition of this fact.
…
I was making the point that there is no realistic alternative to 'multiculturalsim'.
Yes, people probably tend to group with others who share their identity, but we shouldn’t encourage this, as it encourages people to segregate, while it discourages wider community kinship and cooperation. This is what multiculturalism is. It isn’t simply a recognition of the fact people tend to segregate themselves, it is the encouragement of it.

[Johnno]

I agree to some extent Johnno!

But there are plenty of ghettos is Leeds, Chapletown and Little London spring to mind.Chapeltown isn't a 'ghetto'. It's well dodgy these days thanks to all the muggers and drug addicts, but racially it's a very mixed area, so it's hardly a 'ghetto'. And Little London is just a dump. ;)

My dad lives in Dewsbury, and it isnt as much a ghetto as say Chapeltown, Dewsbury and Mirfield are nearly all asian and are actually nice areas now.Well if you compare Saviletown or Ravensthorpe with areas like Mirfield or Westboro, then the contrast is marked. I don't think you get such a polarisation in big cities like Leeds, because being far more multi-ethnic you don't tend to get such an us-and-them attitude from the locals.

[Johnno]

Yes, people probably tend to group with others who share their identity, but we shouldn’t encourage this, as it encourages people to segregate, while it discourages wider community kinship and cooperation. This is what multiculturalism is. It isn’t simply a recognition of the fact people tend to segregate themselves, it is the encouragement of it.How is anyone encouraging this? I can't imagine it. Do you have any examples?

[Hiroji]

Chapeltown isn't a 'ghetto'. It's well dodgy these days thanks to all the muggers and drug addicts, but racially it's a very mixed area, so it's hardly a 'ghetto'. And Little London is just a dump. ;)

Well if you compare Saviletown or Ravensthorpe with areas like Mirfield or Westboro, then the contrast is marked. I don't think you get such a polarisation in big cities like Leeds, because being far more multi-ethnic you don't tend to get such an us-and-them attitude from the locals.


lol! chapeltown isnt a ghetto?? thats a first!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chapeltown%2C_West_Yorkshire

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghetto- check the UK bit.

[Topher]

Hostility from the 'host' comunity tends to be the biggest factor in encouraging many immigrants to stay within their 'own areas' where they feel safer.
Not always as sometime they live in their own specific area, away from everyone else, but when it is somewhat mixed, it appears to be like a Catch-22. The ‘host community’ feels threatened by people of different origins arriving in their community, or even making it their ‘base’, speaking their own language, and the community changes as a result. This is perceived as them integrating or acknowledging to the wider cultural community. The longer this happens, the greater the difference and segregation. This affects the community, often to a degree where white people feel like they have to move.

Part of this is ignorance on both sides, likely due to the fact that it has been taboo to discuss many issues socially and politically, so they haven’t. This creates ignorance.

An recent episode of BBC Panorama explored this issue. In the episodes, they fitted a tracking device to an asian cab driver, and a white cab driver and tracked their location throughout the day. Both unconsciously stayed within to their own areas.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/panorama/6631541.stm

”The problem that Panorama observes cannot be simply dismissed as "racism", although there will be racists, inevitably, on both sides.

What differentiates the communities is not just skin colour but a more complex combination of race, religion, and language and culture, and these factors added together are a recipe for social separation.”

It’s even worse for older people, who probably react more inflexible to such change, on both sides

[Hiroji]

There are many factors why many first and second generation immigrants live within separate communities.

The first area to look at is why they came over? Many came to work in the mill town areas of northern England, hence the reason they all lived together in the same areas.

Which by its nature wasn’t going to help with the multicultural idea.

[Topher]

How is anyone encouraging this? I can't imagine it. Do you have any examples?
No. We are not encouraging people to segregate directly, but in highlighting each culture, specifically the differences, it draws attention to the differences between people and in turn makes it harder to integrate. We should focus on the similarities, while at the same time hold projecting anything from criticism and discussion. At the moment it seems to create a society where the minority culture can express itself, with criticism, disproval or debate about it being taboo. Meanwhile the majority culture has to be careful not to ‘offend’ the minorities, such as by adapting for the minority culture! Part of this has led to the fact any talk of Islam that isn’t positive is likely to be labelled ‘Islamaphobia’, and as such, it becomes sheltered from discussion, which in turn creates separation.

The language issue is a good example:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6174303.stm
“Speaking through a translator, a Bangladeshi woman who has lived in the UK for 22 years and does not speak English questioned this spending.

She said: "When you are trying to help us you are actually harming. Even before we ask, all we have to do is say hello, they are here with their interpreters. We just sit here doing nothing and we don't need to speak in English at all."

Of course, people will and should have their own cultural. No one is asking them to abandon it, but were are certain cultural elements which form the wider culture of this country.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiculturalism#United_Kingdom_2
In November 2006, Prime Minister Tony Blair stated that Britain has certain "essential values" and that these are a "duty". He did not reject multiculturalism as such, but he included British heritage among the essential values:[25]
"When it comes to our essential values - belief in democracy, the rule of law, tolerance, equal treatment for all, respect for this country and its shared heritage - then that is where we come together, it is what we hold in common."

All that aside, I used to work for my local council so I've had some first hand experience.

[Johnno]

lol! chapeltown isnt a ghetto?? thats a first!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chapeltown%2C_West_Yorkshire

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghetto- check the UK bit.Did you actually read the links you posted? Because they blow your own argument out of the water! :D

Chapeltown is a very multi-racial area. Whereas a ghetto by definition is not.

[Johnno]

Not always as sometime they live in their own specific area, away from everyone else, but when it is somewhat mixed, it appears to be like a Catch-22. The ‘host community’ feels threatened by people of different origins arriving in their community, or even making it their ‘base’, speaking their own language, and the community changes as a result. This is perceived as them integrating or acknowledging to the wider cultural community. The longer this happens, the greater the difference and segregation. This affects the community, often to a degree where white people feel like they have to move.

Part of this is ignorance on both sides, likely due to the fact that it has been taboo to discuss many issues socially and politically, so they haven’t. This creates ignorance.

An recent episode of BBC Panorama explored this issue. In the episodes, they fitted a tracking device to an asian cab driver, and a white cab driver and tracked their location throughout the day. Both unconsciously stayed within to their own areas.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/panorama/6631541.stm

”The problem that Panorama observes cannot be simply dismissed as "racism", although there will be racists, inevitably, on both sides.

What differentiates the communities is not just skin colour but a more complex combination of race, religion, and language and culture, and these factors added together are a recipe for social separation.”

It’s even worse for older people, who probably react more inflexible to such change, on both sidesI saw that program, and it was one of the things I was thinking of when I posted!

It was striking how some of the Asian residents of Blackburn wanted to move out of their 'own' areas, but were made to feel distinctly unwelcome if they moved to a predominantly white area.

[SiAiS]

I like Chapeltown, it reminds me of Wimbeldon, my auntie used to live there

[Hiroji]

Did you actually read the links you posted? Because they blow your own argument out of the water! :D

Chapeltown is a very multi-racial area. Whereas a ghetto by definition is not.

Chapeltown is predominantly afro Caribbean... ;)

Did you read the link?

Because chapeltown is included within the UKs ghettos.

[Johnno]

Chapeltown is predominantly afro Caribbean... ;)Is it heck! It's quite possible that the largest single ethnic group might be those of West Indian origin, but it certainly isn't the majority.

Did you read the link?I didn't give the link on Chappie more than a quick look, because I know the area pretty well, so I trust my own knowledge more than Wikipedia. ;)

Because chapeltown is included within the UKs ghettos.By who? :confused:

[Hiroji]

You accuse me of not reading them and you haven’t read them yourself! :p

Ok then, id say chapeltown is a socially deprived area consisting mostly of ethnic groups. Gun crime, gangs and drugs are a problem... :p :D

[Topher]

It was striking how some of the Asian residents of Blackburn wanted to move out of their 'own' areas, but were made to feel distinctly unwelcome if they moved to a predominantly white area.
Due to the fact that diffrences between the diffrent cultures makes it diffucult for many to integrate.

Asian people feel like they can't go into non-Asian areas, while white people feel like they are being forced out of theirs.

[Topher]

The problem doesn't just have to be them living in seperate communities.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/panorama/6631541.stm
"Anyone who goes to Blackburn's town centre, and takes a look around, will see that whites and Muslim Asians are sharing the shopping centre and that everyone is behaving perfectly courteously to each other.

So what's the problem? Well, look a bit more carefully, and you'll see that they are both here doing their shopping - but they're not shopping together.

They're nearly always shopping separately. And that's the typical pattern here.

Defined areas

There's very little casual, social association between whites and Muslim Asians. There's an obvious geographical separation."

The problem is more than geographical.

[Johnno]

You accuse me of not reading them and you haven’t read them yourself! :p I just thought it was funny you posting a link which undermined your own argument! ;) :D

Ok then, id say chapeltown is a socially deprived area consisting mostly of ethnic groups. Gun crime, gangs and drugs are a problem... :p :DYes, it's an area with a lot of ethnic minority communities - but then so is most of the city if you want to be picky about it. (And you are talking to Mr Picky. ;) ) And sure, it has a lot of social problems. But it still fails the 'Ghetto test', because it's a real melting pot.

[alister]

But it still fails the 'Ghetto test'

I'd like to take the "ghetto test"...I reckon I can pass wiv like 85%, den I can bust a cap in yo ass 'cos den I will be like well street innit?