World Christian Taekwondo Federation

[Bulldog]

I am just supplying information to those who would be interested. This is not designed to start debates or discussions..but, since it is a forum...do what comes naturally! :)


World Christian Taekwondo Federation is currently getting established.

www.wctf.net

Thanks,

Aaron

[Tosh]

EDIT: The following is taken from the front page of the above website.

"Exclusively Christian"

WOW! What does that mean :confused:?????

[Bulldog]

I think that it's pretty self explanatory...(did I spell that right? Probably not)...

Just an informational post...do with it what you will! :)

[Tosh]

So, just so I get you right, it's TKD based on a principle of excluding all non-christian groups?

If so, then I'll leave that link in the old circular file thanks ;)

TKD is for everybody. :D

[Bulldog]

It think that Taekwondo is for everyone too...
I'm sure that when the web site is up it will explain their stance, purpose, mission statement...etc..

I just happened to find the site after surfing...

Aaron

[Infesticon #1]

I think it's probably more something for people who do TKD who happen to be christian.

[zun]

Hey!

I'm not christian can I join?

[Kwajman]

Please don't bash someone elses beliefs. If you don't agree with the Christian faith, its okay, just don't blast someone else who does...

[Tosh]

Originally posted by Kwajman
Please don't bash someone elses beliefs. If you don't agree with the Christian faith, its okay, just don't blast someone else who does...

First of all I asked for clarification of what "Exclusivly Christian" means. Seeing as I have Christian parents I'm pretty sure the underpining belief of the Christian faith was "love thy neighbour" regardless of thier belief system.

Nobody has "blasted" the Christian faith here Kwajman so I'd appreciate a little pause before you hit the post button.

What I'm pointing a finger here at is a group which openly seems to say "We only cater for Christians.".

If anybody has a problem with a different religion then it sems to be these people. However, this is purely based on first impressions of the site (which is not completed).

This is the overiding problem with "beliefs" as a great man once said.

"Ideas are better than beliefs. You can always change an idea, but it's a lot harder to change a belief." - Rufus

[tkd ajumma]

I don't understand why we need to split martial artists into arbitrary groups like this - what difference does it make if they are Christian, Buddhist or whatever, it just shouldn't enter the equation. When I was doing some research on the net about tkd associations, I came across a ref to a Gay and Lesbian Taekwondo Association. I have the same issue with this - why is there a need for a special group? Religion or sexual orientation don't/shouldn't have any bearing on the way you practice martial arts. Surely one of the basic martial arts tenets is RESPECT, and if we can all show that, then there is no need for these exclusive groups.

[stump]

Here, TKD is being used as an evangelical tool...which I don't agree with

[Saz]

I agree with you on this Ajumma. Since MA is supposed to be for everyone, spiltting it into denomination only groups just makes things exclusive. Technically, as far as the Gay and Lesbian Martial arts groups go, their justification is they get abuse/discrimination in "regular" martial arts groups, so they start their own. I don't actually see anything strictly wrong with a christian group, or a Gay and Lesbian group, but its when they say "Only Christians/Only Gays and Lesbians can train here" that I would find objectionable. Its just discrimination reversed.

[Freeform]

Its a form of discrimination hiding behind an attempted front of 'anti-discrimination'.

[Infesticon #1]

oh, I didn't look at the site and presumed it was like something for people who do tkd and are christian, like they do tkd somewhere and are also a member of the christian society for tkd or whatever it's called.

I can't see anything wrong with that. Same with the LGB TKD thingy.

But yeah if it was stop doing tkd where you are and join our organisation then that's a bit iffy TKD already has enough petty organisations.

[47Ronin]

Haha, I think the real reason behind this is the cha ching $$$$$$
$$$$$$$$ If they only tend to one section and are in a highly populated area of christians then they are going to get good money for it. Same with the lez's and gay's say if they are in key west or something they'll make more money if they support gay people.

Then again there is what Infesticon #1 said and it is just groups but personally, wouldn't you feel like an outcast if you were straight and in a gay club or christian club and you were buddhist or whatever??

[Bulldog]

There is discussion that taekwondo is for everyone...yet there are more associations and federations out there than are truly necessary...

I don't think any of these groups are sending the message that "you MUST join us"...I think they are simply saying...
If you would like to be a part of this...join...it's a matter of choice...

I think that there are already some threads where discrimination against this organization has already been established...and yet, we don't really know anything about them...

It really doesn't matter if one thinks it's about making money...or if it's going to use TKD as an evangelical tool...or you don't like the term exclusive...although I respect the points raised...it sounds judgemental and discriminating to form opinions about a site link and an organization that we don't really know anything about...:)

I've seen this so many times...and I'm so glad that I posted in my journal yesterday...I hope some of you will take a moment to read my Benny Urquidez post...

In closing...I don't care if you're gay/lesbian/black/white/brown/purple/Christian/Buddhist/Taoist/Atheist TKD association or federation...I care about the people...I care that regardless of whether I agree or disagree with their beliefs...I see that we have something in common and that is TKD...That is the common point...We have the same interest or passion...I don't think anyone can look at a TKD student and say...
"Hey, I bet he/she is one of those gay/lesbian/Christian/Buddhist/Taoists..."

Associations and Federations are not the foundational problem that brings division among Taekwondo...it's our own way of thinking...

Thanks,

Aaron

[Kwajman]

Okay Tosh, the gloves are off!! Nah, oh second thought, I didn't really mean to jump on you like that. I wrote it REALLY late at night and I deserve whatever beating you may feel I deserve. Just don't hit the face okay, my daughter says its scary enough...


http://instagiber.net/smiliesdotcom/contrib/edoom/samurai.gif

[neryo_tkd]

i agree with those who said that there shouldn't be any differences between people who are christian and those who are not.

imagine this situation...a person who is not christian lives in the same area, (s)he can't join them because of his/her religious beliefs. another TKD club is too far away for this person. so should this person be deprived of tkd trainings?

i don't think that God would have wanted it that way. some of u said that it might be because of money. if that is true (which we don't know at this point of time) then again there is something wrong with them because God wouldn't have wanted the club to be all about money. i don't think that that's what the Bible is all about.

[Bulldog]

Man...I had NO idea that this would create such discussion...ha ha

I think it's healthy that's for sure...

Through diversity comes the truth...

I'm not going to start opening up the "what the Bible is all about or God wouldn't want this or that"...at least not here...:)

I'm glad to see it has so many "pondering"...

I don't think their goal is to deny anyone TKD training based on faith beliefs of lack of them...I imagine that they teach or incorporate their faith into their curriculum and are looking for others who do the same...
or want to do something similar...To me, that is no different than those who incorporate any kind of philosophy or ideaology...

Many good comments here...

Aaron

[neryo_tkd]

they can invite to their club whoever they want. it's their club and it's up to them. i don't care. but for the sake of having a discussion:

would u like to have an instrcutor who would every now and then during the training session talk about faith and God? that can definitely make somebody leave. i don't think that religion should interefere with sports. sport is for everyone: the healthy and the handicapped, the short ones and the tall ones, christians and atheists etc. the most important thing is to develop urself within the sport according to its philosophy, which is again different from religion, don't u think?

and let's not forget a very important thing: we are not sure what these people are trying to do and what their trainings will be like, right? but we are having a nice discussion like nice people do, right???? :) :) :) :) :)

[Bulldog]

10-4 that neryo...

Good discussion...I personally don't have any problem with people sharing their belief or faith...no matter what it is...That is just opens up doors for greater relationships, at least to me...
I don't know how you could ever be enlightened unless someone enlightens you...ha ha

Even if you don't agree with their "enlightenment" hee hee

[neryo_tkd]

ha ha ha ha

i'm really happy that my instructor ''enlightened'' me in another way besides telling me about the deadly sins and the gospel ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha

i certainly won't ''enlight'' my students that way. i have this strange feeling that they wouldn't like it. :) :) :) :)

[Bulldog]

I would hope that if faith is shared...it is shared without condemnation to those on the receiving end...and I think that's my final 2 cents...

[neryo_tkd]

so,u'll be their first member!!!

admit it,

don't worry, we'll still love u (maybe) :) :) :) :)

[craigwarren]

"Exclusively Christian" That sounds pretty clear to me. Tae Kwon Do, and everything else this world has to offer should be for anyone. And althought people will argue that this group isnt stopping people from learning TKD elsewhere, they are promoting segregation in society, and thats the last thing any society needs.

[thekingster]

I agree that the principles of TKD are valid for anyone - not just for exclusive groups of people. As I surfed to this website and read the form was "Christ Do Kwan Taekwondo" - the impression I have is that the school desires Christian tenets to be a fundamental aspect of what the group promotes.

As a Christian, I understand this...since there is a large group of Christians that do not understand the martial arts or martial artists, in particular. Many Christians feel that indulgence in martial arts will lead to mandatory eastern meditation, which might be argued against on purely philosophical/theological reasons. My family and I profess Christianity, but have trained the last two years in a very secular TKD dojo. For us, it hasn't been an issue.

As a former minister, I understand that the Martin family might have an evangelistic notion in mind. As an American, I have to give them the right to express their religious beliefs in the way(s) they feel they ought. Much as I would allow a buddhist to express his beliefs. To be true to my religion, however, if a buddhist were to ask me, "Am I going to Heaven?" - I would answer him honestly.

Many of the posts in this thread seem to indicate the religious plurality should be extended to every group - where a quick survey of the times shows that many do not permit Christians this same luxury. I am thoroughly Christian, and, thoroughly American - I feel you should worship as you choose...but I would be less than honest if I blyted the tenets of the faith to which I ascribe.

Random thoughts,
Steven King, MBA

[Bulldog]

Originally posted by neryo_tkd
so,u'll be their first member!!!

admit it,

don't worry, we'll still love u (maybe) :) :) :) :)
I'm not a member...ha ha...
I've emailed them and asked them some questions. I think their website will explain everything in detail when they get it redone and online...bylaws/mission statement/etc.

You know...I was just thinking about "belonging" last night...

Let's throw this out and see where this thread goes...:)

Bruce Lee is considered by the majority as the greatest martial artist to ever live...Yet, I don't ever recall anyone asking his affiliation or where he was certified from...in fact...I don't ever recall in any article, book or interview that he considered himself anything more than just a martial artist...

I am a member of several martial arts organizations...Some are run by Christians and some are not...I have no problem with any of them...I don't get offended...I really don't...

I smile when people ask me about my rank or who I'm certified through or by. I do acknowledge those who have given me rank, but, I don't take it too seriously...

I got my black belt in 1991...and technically...I'm still a first degree black belt 12 years later...I have not tested for second dan with anyone...but, yet, I've been promoted by several people because of my abilities and being able to fulfill the requirements of their organizations or styles...Did I ask for it? No...Do I really care? No...Do I flaunt my certificates from every organization that I belong to...No...

I can only be accepted as a member by an organization if they approve my membership...and once they do, I most often, don't really get much for being a member anyway...:) I hope you can see my point...What does belonging to a group or organization really mean?

Nothing really...

I often join an organization and as a member I support that group by prayer, some financially, but, more often than not...it's just being a good citizen and a good martial artist. I'm good at networking and can provide assistance there and I have offered professional voice overs for some video and audio projects. (That was my main job for 10 years-radio/production).

I guess I'm not your "typical" Christian. I compeletly understand why many look at "us" and say things like...

1. Hypocrites
2. Judgemental

I'm secure enough in my faith...so that I don't have to condemn those who don't subscribe to my beliefs...I never force anyone to listen to my beliefs...I enjoy people and creating new relationships...with whomever...People are fascinating! I would never tell someone they HAD to pray or be a Christian to work out with me...or be a member of my school...BUT, I do pray before class and I am a Christian...it's my class! ha ha...I have never intimidated someone in my class with "religion" or condemn them for their lifestyles or choices outside the school...I do require that when we all come together...we follow the rules that are established for my school...and I don't think that my rules are bad or harsh or exclusive or prejudice...

1. Do unto others as you would have done unto you...
2. If you don't like how someone is treating you, see rule number one.
3. If you feel that rules number 1 and 2 are not being followed by the instructor, please bring it to his attention...we all make mistakes...

I will leave you all with this...



"what an unbelieving world finds in many Christians is this...
That they profess it with their mouth and then deny it with their life...and that is what an unbelieving world, simply finds, unbelievable"

Aaron

[neryo_tkd]

Originally posted by Bulldog
I've emailed them and asked them some questions.


:) have u received a reply yet? :)

[neryo_tkd]

this is written on their website:

''Our Mission
The World Christian Taekwondo Federation will teach salvation through Christ and martial arts. We will promote ranks, offer seminars and have state, national and international tournaments. As a Christian Federation we are interested in promoting fellowship among believers and focusing on God's Word. We will be Christians united together as a team for Christ. We will worship, pray and learn together and support each other, while enjoying the blessings that God has given us through His Son, Jesus Christ, our Lord and Savior. ''



what do u think about it?

[zun]

Wow! Sounds like Sunday Mass at a Dojo.

[neryo_tkd]

ha ha ha, yes it does

they all probably do one combination of techniques and then pray, do the second and then pray....:)

[Bulldog]

That statement went up recently as I was told they are working on the site and federation stuff...Master Martin seems like a very nice gentleman and I encouraged him to do what he feels he is being led to do. He is expressing his faith and I'm fine with it. I don't have any problems with the vision they have. It will not be for everyone, that's for sure. The good news for me is...through investigation and some inquiry...I made a new friend in the martial arts...ALASKA! Best wishes to them, regardless of my personal opinions...:)

[C.Henry]

Originally posted by tkd ajumma
I don't understand why we need to split martial artists into arbitrary groups like this - what difference does it make if they are Christian, Buddhist or whatever, it just shouldn't enter the equation. When I was doing some research on the net about tkd associations, I came across a ref to a Gay and Lesbian Taekwondo Association. I have the same issue with this - why is there a need for a special group? Religion or sexual orientation don't/shouldn't have any bearing on the way you practice martial arts. Surely one of the basic martial arts tenets is RESPECT, and if we can all show that, then there is no need for these exclusive groups.

The Christian thing is by definition exclusive, the gay and lesbian thing has nothing to do with excluding anyone. It is to give gay and lesbian practicioners a chance to train in a non hostile setting.
All sports tend to make life a bit difficult for glbt participants, but if you are straight you can be sure that you would not be turned away from their classes and you wouldn't be "hipmotized" or asked to convert.
Back in the 70's there was a group that used to come to Atlanta for tournaments. "Karate for Christ" was painted all over their van.

[jwc]

karatedo: the ~Empty Hand Way
taekwondo: the Hand-Foot Way
jeet kune do: Way of the Intercepting Fist
judo: the Gentle Way
do: Way of Life
Jesus: the Way, the Truth, and the Life

[Bulldog]

I don't care what you say you are or profess to be...
I love ya just the way you are...except neryo...JUST KIDDING...

Mucho love to everybody...JUST ENJOY YOUR TRAINING!

Aaron

[KickChick]

:love: ... can't you just feel it??

Did you know that the National Women's Martial Arts Federation is exclusively for women??

My opinion?
I have no problem with organized "martial art groups" as long as they promote the unity of ALL martial artists regardless of race, gender, religion, location, in order to increase "co-operation" and development. These "federations" should maintain high standards, respect traditions, foster the true spirit of martial arts and to encourage the progressive development of the martial arts.

[Bulldog]

I think I'm going to start the
World Christian Atheist Buddhist Taoist Shinto Muslim Islamic Jewish Agnostic Lesbian Gay Straight African American Native American Asian American Latin American Caucasion Blue Green Brown Hazel Green Grey Black Grey Eyed Martial Arts Combat Defense Ultimate Fighting Grappling Kicking Punching Joint Manipulation Weapon System Federation Association Alliance Commission Network for Republican Democrat Independent Green Party People (R) 2003...


And I'm the 12 degree founder/Head of family/Soke/Grand Master/President...

If I left anyone else out...you are just out of luck...go start your own....

:)

Aaron

[jwc]

You are going to have a difficult time fitting your add in the phone book.

[Bulldog]

LOL

[neryo_tkd]

Originally posted by Bulldog
I don't care what you say you are or profess to be...
I love ya just the way you are...except neryo...JUST KIDDING...

Mucho love to everybody...JUST ENJOY YOUR TRAINING!

Aaron


:cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry:

[Bulldog]

Here's a tissue to dry those tears...filled with Neryo love....
Cuz, I don't want you to wipe your nose with the sleeve of your gi...that's just plain nasty! LOL

[neryo_tkd]

:)

:love:

[Bulldog]

Much better...

[TigerAnsTKDLove]

Can anyone explain to me what the use of the world christian tkd federation is all about? i know its for christians. but, truly what is its use? can someone please explain and give me more info about it plz! thank ya much!:confused: :confused: :confused:

[YODA]

Here you go...

http://www.wctf.net/

[TigerAnsTKDLove]

thank you yoda for the website :)

[Bulldog]

Email Master Martin for complete information.

masterc@alaska.net

They are still in the beginning stages.

Bulldog