Taoist Tai Chi

[spartan]

Does anyone know about it or study it?

[spartan]

...Also does anyone study bagua..?
Im study boxing, kickboxing and grappling for self defence and want to start an enternal style for health benefits.
any info will help.

[Syd]

G'day Spartan,

The answer to your question is both simple and a bit controversial as with most things in the internal arts. I personally would argue that Taijiquan is in and of itself the ultimate Taoist internal Martial art.

You need to be more specific regarding your needs. For instance do you want to study Taoism as a martial art or do want to study a martial art that's foundations are Taoist and who's principles are Taoist?

If you want Taosim in martial arts I will suggest you can't go wrong with any of the Taijiquan styles, depending on whether you want to learn for combat or health. You could also study Baguazhang which is based on the I-Ching and walking the Bagua circle, 8 changing palms.

I personally study a combat branch of Yang Style Taijiquan that comes down from the Yang Shou Hou side of the family. It is my teachers belief that this art goes back to Chang San Feng (highly controversial for many) by way of Jiang Fa and Wang Tsung Yueh.

Chang San Feng was himself a Taoist hermit who spent his latter years as a recluse in the Wudang mtns. It is believed by some that the original 13 postures of Taijiquan come down from Chang San Feng. In that sense Taijiquan is the ultimate Taoist martial art, whereas Shaolin arts are Buddhist in their association.

Within our system we also study Wudang Qi disruption and various other forms which have been closely guarded for many generations. I would then suggest that whatever you seek to do if Taoism and internal are your key words then Taiji or Bagua are the arts to explore.

I do not practise Baguazhang but another forum member here (Nzric) does, and he may be able to help you in this regard if thats the direction you decide to head in.

Let me add however that Taoist Taiji is a modern agency in North America whose Taijiquan is merelya variation of the Yang 108 form. You can decide for yourself if one is perhaps truly Taoist in name only or not.

Best, Syd

[RobP]

If this is the Taoist Tai Ch of Moy from Canada my advice would be to steer well clear. It's Yang style butchered almost beyond recognition.

[Syd]

Rob,

I didn't want to say it, but you are totally correct in your assesment. There... now I've said it.

[nzric]

Spartan - where in Australia are you? There are some great bagua classes around Sydney, and I know of a few teachers in other places. Let me know.

I'd be careful choosing a bagua teacher - a lot of the classes out there are just watered down wushu, to put it kindly. When looking at a class, ask the teacher about: the bagua palms - they should know good qigong exercises to bring the qi into the palms (but if they want you to shove your fingers into buckets of sand - leave!), also they should be confident showing applications to you, and most important they should have the correct stepping method and be able to show you the opposition of hips and waist (centrifugal/centripetal forces), which is where all the power of bagua comes from.

Also, there are a lot of people who teach the animal bagua forms. These are excellent methods, but I don't think it's what you have in mind when you think of bagua so you may be disappointed (they tend to emphasise the qigong and demonstration side more than the martial applications).

As for the taoist question - tai chi IS taoism. There's no way you can say a style is 'Taoist tai chi' because all correct taiji is an expression of taoist principles.

Just research chinese culture while you practice tai chi - tai chi represents the flow of yin/yang, bagua is based around the eight trigrams (and the 64 hexagrams of the i ching), and hsing i is based around the five elements. When you research these principles, it will help you understand what the tai chi/IMA is trying to achieve.

Read the tao te ching - and apply that to your tai chi study. It's full of information about the principles tai chi is based around:

24. He who stands on his tiptoes does not stand firm; he who stretches his legs does not walk (easily).

26. 1. Gravity is the root of lightness; stillness, the ruler of
movement.

43. 1. The softest thing in the world dashes against and overcomes the hardest; that which has no (substantial) existence enters where there is no crevice.

78. 1. There is nothing in the world more soft and weak than water, and yet for attacking things that are firm and strong there is nothing that can take precedence of it;--for there is nothing (so effectual) for which it can be changed.

[spartan]

Well im from Canberra.
If you know any teachers that would be great.
Thanks for the help, im going to start looking at the beggining of 2004.
But i did come across a school thats called taoist tai chi sociaty.
I think they said its similar to the yang style only that the movements are in different order or something.
Did anyone here experiance any benefits (health wise) when starting an enternal style?
Please share.

[nzric]

Um, I don't know anyone from Canberra but give Erle Montaigue a buzz (wtba@ozemail.com.au) and I'm sure he can give you a contact name. Erle's site is www.taijiworld.com.

I have felt amazing general benefits from tai chi. My teacher has a lot of problems with his eyes and he would be classed as blind if it wasn't for taiji/qigong. Another teacher was in a motorbike accident and would have lost the use of his leg if it wasn't for bagua. I also train with a guy who has nearly ruined his wrists/hands from full-contact karate for years, but has regained most of his power from practicing taiji fighting methods instead.

There's nothing better than qigong for general good health. I also find bagua is great for your internal health because of it's twisting/spiralling (opposing hips/waist) movements and relaxation.

It's hard to distinguish the benefits from just the exercise, because I find most people who practice IMA for years also start practicing chinese medicine and a large dose of qigong.

[zun]

Originally posted by nzric
I have felt amazing general benefits from tai chi. My teacher has a lot of problems with his eyes and he would be classed as blind if it wasn't for taiji/qigong. Another teacher was in a motorbike accident and would have lost the use of his leg if it wasn't for bagua. I also train with a guy who has nearly ruined his wrists/hands from full-contact karate for years, but has regained most of his power from practicing taiji fighting methods instead.


Nzric, would it be okay to ask for more details?

[nzric]

Well..
Myself: I've found my posture and balance has improved a huge amount, as well as my coordination. I don't have nearly as many back strains or tight shoulders, etc. as before. Don't know about general health because I have never been sick very often. Taiji and bagua just teach you methods of efficient body movement instead of techniques, so if you train often you will naturally incorporate this into your daily life.

The teachers: Well, my teacher has a problem with his eyes, but he does a lot of qigong to help it. I also know that his balance and coordination is amazing and as IMA is concentrated more on peripheral vision and the use of touch instead of focused vision, it doesn't seem like his sight problems cause any real problems in practice.

Also, a guy came in earlier this year for a few lessons with what looked like the early stages of Parkinson's (twitching and some paralysis), and only after a month or so, there were visible benefits as the relaxation and breathing methods of the taiji made the twitches much weaker. I think the routine movements help as the object of IMA (well, any MA for that matter) is to put the muscle knowledge into your subconscious.

The other teacher I mentioned was in a serious motorbike accident and one is his legs was crushed, they said he would never walk. He still walks with a very strong limp (lots of pins or something in his leg?) but when he is practicing bagua you would not know there was anything wrong. Bagua has an odd stepping method and it concentrates on shifting/practicing your balance and strengthening the legs, hips and waist, so it's obvious why he is so interested in it.

The other student I mentioned has done external ma all his life, including full-contact karate and a lot of knife/stick fighting. After years of hard training, he has the usual health problems from excessive strain on his muscles and bones. The strikes we learn focus more on giving a directed shock than pounding the target (it's hard to explain) so there is less stress on the hands and wrist than a "normal" punch. Anyway, this guy has felt a huge benefit because by staying loose and focusing his force from his feet to his waist...hands, he has a lot of power without aggravating his weak points.

It's also interesting to note that while this guy has a lot of trouble gaining 'sung' (the relaxation/suppleness you need for a lot of IMA), he says practicing taiji has made him a much more relaxed guy and has helped him cool his aggro streak.

While most people don't like to talk about it, colon cancer is the second leading cause of cancer death after heart disease! I truly feel that a bad western diet as well as western exercises (e.g. rugby and weight training) contribute to internal problems and things like constipation, that make you more susceptible to these problems later in life (maybe as well as prostate problems). Bagua especially, with it's twisting movements, focuses on massaging your internal organs, making them produce more fluids and as a result your digestion is much better. In a time where nearly all exercises focus on external muscular health, it's important to exercise your internal side (I'm talking about organs, tissues and tendons, here, not chi/energy). Bagua has similar principles to pilates - I think much of the health benefits are similar.

Hope that helps.

[zun]

Great! Thanks for the info nzric.

Agreed. Western lifestyle unfortunately isn't the best. Unfortunately, because a lot of the damage is internal, most are not aware of the dangers until it's too late.

On a more positive note, it's good the benefits that the ima has brought to you and your friends.

At my friends local nei-gung class (non-martial arts based), there are many people who medical/western science has given up on. For instance, m.s sufferers, car-crash victims, kidney sufferers, disabled - etc. who are slowly regaining their life back. Many of the disabled are slowly walking again, if they aren't walking already.

I had initially taken taiji for the claimed health benefits - only to be totally amazed and astounded that it was also a killer martial arts.

Thanks for the heads up.

[iamno]

Up north there are now a lot of doctors telling their patients who suffer from depression and other mental illness to take up TC. Some classes are held in hospitals. I have seen someone with parkinsons disease gain a lot from TC and would deffo recomend it for any health problems

[wutan]

Spartan,
As Rob states Taoist Tai Chi is a hybrid style a mixture of Yang and Bagua step but mainly a variation of Yang.
Its practice is purely for health and has associated chi kung exercises within its practice.
A student would get some health benefits from practicing TTC but they would not be practicing Tai Chi Chuan and TTC should be given another name. It does not have any of the real Tai Chi concepts within its curriculum,ie rooting,applications,very little push hands (if any)
and the instructors all follow a fairly strict teaching regime which does not allow for much individualism.
If I were you I would look for a class/instructor that can deliver all the things that are missing in the above list and more.
I know these things as I practiced Taoist style for two years 10 years ago whilst looking for another Tai Chi class.
Even with my little knowledge at the time I could answer more questions that the other students were asking than the instructor at the time.
I find now that after 9-10 yrs of practicing Wudang style as taught by Dan Docherty/Ian Cameron and my Sifu Jim Connochan
I have made the correct choice,yet feel that even though I am now an instructor I probably know less now than I did whilst practising Taoist style!
Another way of looking at it is that I still have much to learn on the journey.
The above is my opinion and take on TTC.
Yours,
Mark.

[Smee]

Hi wutan

Don't want to hijack the thread but do you know of any reputable teachers up here in Dundee?

Paul

[wutan]

Hi PaulS,
Sorry for the late reply I have been off line for a bit.
There may be reputable Tai Chi teachers in the Dundee area although I do not know of any personally.
You could look at www.taichifinder.co.uk
and it may throw up something.
My gut feeling is that Edinburgh would poss be the closest if you wanted to learn Tai Chi as a complete art.

Regards,

MARK

[zun]

Originally posted by wutan

Another way of looking at it is that I still have much to learn on the journey.


Hi Mark,

I can second the opinion. The more I learn about Tai Chi, the more I feel the less I know and the more this is to know now, u know? :)

[Syd]

Here ya go....

http://www.eternalspringtours.com/wudang/images/kungfumasters/kfm2.jpg

http://www.eternalspringtours.com/wudang/images/kungfumasters/kfm16.jpg

http://www.eternalspringtours.com/wudang/images/kungfumasters/kfm5.jpg

Just looks like Cheng Man Chings version of Yang to me. ;)

[zun]

Kewl. Nice picture of Syd's training school. You can even see his house and the blue mountains in the background.

[Syd]

*L* Actually Zun take away the palaces, the Taoists (if there are any) and leave the mist and those hills, you've pretty much got the atmosphere I train in most of the time.

I posted the pics because I kind of wanted to illustrate that this modern phenomena of Taoist Taiji is actually just Yang Style with a pinch of this and a dab of that.

There are however Wudang/Taoist styles out there but they aren't selling out like these above and cashing in on the latest 'Crouching Tiger' Wudang fad, Most likely they are indoor arts much like LHBF before it went into the open.

It all looks nice though, doesn't it? ;)

[Shade]

Syd, i just KNEW you live in a cave in the mountains ;)

[zun]

A cave in the mountain I can handle.

What amazes me is - he has fast internet access?!

[Shade]

Or would that be internal-net

boom boom :D

[Syd]

Nice one Shade... Ba boom chit! *LOL*

Zun,

I'm in the second highest and most isolated part of the mountains here... we even have TV! Innit marvelous? ;)

[nzric]

Funky blue and white outfits - gotta get me some of those!

[zun]

Originally posted by Syd

I'm in the second highest and most isolated part of the mountains here... we even have TV! Innit marvelous? ;)

I hate to imagine what you have in the MOST highest and most isolated part of the mountain! :)

[Shade]

Hey Zun, a quick off thread question (sorry for hijacking Syd).

Am i right in thinking that you are taught by Paul Brecher? If so do you ever go to the class on a Sunday morning?

[Syd]

Here's one I missed! This one's for NZ... P.S I love the Taoist robes also. I'll have to ring my taylor!

http://www.eternalspringtours.com/wudang/images/kungfumasters/kfm7.jpg

If you guys are interested in seeing more, here's the url...http://www.eternalspringtours.com/wudang/index.html ;)

[zun]

Originally posted by Shade
Hey Zun, a quick off thread question (sorry for hijacking Syd).

Am i right in thinking that you are taught by Paul Brecher? If so do you ever go to the class on a Sunday morning?

Nah, my classes are taught by Ross Lardner and Russell Morgan.

[zun]

Syd,

Nice. You realise they're offering tours? Fancy going on a pilgrimage?

[Syd]

Zun,

Yeah, I've been over the whole site... it's called eternalspringtours! ;) It does look tempting but hmmmm

[zun]

I hear Erle went to Wudang Mountain once. Do you know anything about that?

[Syd]

Zun,

Yes, this is how he got hold of the rest of the Qi Disruptive forms. Erle had been in touch with the heads of a Wudang village for years sending letters back and forth trying to get them to teach him the rest of the Qi Disruptives.

Erle already had the first three from his teacher, Chang Yiu Chun, and wanted to complete the rest. Eventually they worked out some sort of deal and he went over there and apparently showed them the Old Yang Style and in return they taught him the 12 forms.

I know there was some sort of test involved in all this and Erle had to face off with a couple of the senior students before he was accepted. During some sparring one of the senior students got a bit frisky and ripped Erle's shirt. So on the next move in the applications Erle nailed him I believe with a Baguazhang move in the kidneys.

Thats essentially the story that Erle told me.

Best, Syd

[Shade]

I heard he got his shirt ripped on purpose because he fancied one of those snazzy outfits they wear out there :D

[zun]

Syd,

Effectively that's what I heard too. However, apparently some of the other students where jealous that a foreigner was shown the secrets. Erle got jumped by them and now refuses to return.

[LAU GAR MAN]

http://www.leefamilystyle.com/

:Angel:

[onyomi]

The so-called Daoist martial arts they practice now at Wudang-shan are nothing but modified Shaolin. The closest you can get to real Wudang martial arts nowadays are in Bagua and Xingyi. Earl's Taiji is BAGUA-TAIJI as invented by Chen Pan-ling, a student of Taiji, Xingyi, and Bagua, in the 20th century. That's why he erroneously believes that Taiji is the parent of Bagua and Xingyi--because the Taiji he practices is a synthesis of the three. Yang Luchan studied at Chenjia-gou. There is no record of him ever studying any Xingyi, much less Bagua--which would explain why Earl's Bagua is a joke.

All of Earl's stories reek so badly of BS it's ridiculous... he never names names and if he does he does it with some kind of alien romanization that makes it impossible to verify his info. You say he wrote to the "Wudang Group"? Where, praytell, did he get their mailing address? Since he doesn't speak Chinese, how did he write to them? If this "Original Wudang Group" even exists, then why is there NO reference to it ANYWHERE outside of the writings of Earl and his students? Also, you may notice that his little stories follow a pattern: "Earl sees unknown Chinese grandmaster performing a type of Taiji he's never seen before at some park in Australia. At first the master is reluctant to teach Earl, but after running many errands for him and giving him small gifts, the master agrees. This master's exact name in Chinese characters is uncertain because he was an illegal immigrant and Earl doesn't speak Chinese.".... "Earl participated in the first International meeting of Chinese martial artists of all styles held someplace in China. After being examined by several unnamed grandmasters and having eventful encounters with several others, Earl was awarded the title of "vague title that requires no proof." and so on and so on...

[hegu]

Dont read the tunes Onyomi, Play it! I would like to Teach you Old yang Stile as thought by Earl and his teacher Chang Yiu Chun. If you are open minded you should try also other forms and styles. I did! Then you will feel the difference and then you can say something about that. You will feel and talk different when you get older and more in tune with whathever style you are doing, I guess.
by

[StillWalking]

Since the original question was about the Taoist Tai Society I thought it was appropriate to chime in and direct people to this thread:

http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=30405

Important Highlights:
*All Tai Chi is Taoist in it's origin
*The Taoist Tai Chi Society does not teach Tai Chi as a martial art. The Yang style learned by Master Moy (founder) was adapted to maximise health benefits using his knowledge of internal alchemy developed through years of studying internal taoist arts.
*Master Moy called it Taoist Tai Chi rather than Moy style as he wanted to emphasis the Taoist aspect, and considered Tai Chi to be a form of Taoist training. A huge part of this training is in developing selflessness, so perhaps he thought calling it Moy Style would not have been very selfless!

For more go to www.taoist.org

Spartan - hope that helps some. Since you are looking for health benefits you may find TTC appropriate but many people prefer a more traditional style (which will also give health benefits though these may not be maximised)

I don't post much as not being a martial artist I don't feel I have much to say (!) but I'm still here enjoying reading & learning about other forms. Still love my Taoist Tai Chi though.

[daftyman]

"My style is more authentic than your style!"

Not a quote, but you get it a lot. Who cares? Different people have different approaches. Different strokes for different folks.

Don't attack a style unless you have experienced that style first hand and not just read/heard about it from third parties. It's more often than not politics.

It seems that a lot of poeple get a lot of pleasure from Taoist Tai Chi, just as people get a lot of pleasure from Erle's stuff. I practice CMC's 'style' and that get's a fair amount of stick as well.

Do what you do. If you enjoy it....GREAT!
If you don't......change (either yourself or the style you practice, but make sure it's the art that's at fault and not yourself first)

This holier than thou approach just serves to make us taiji players look like even bigger fools than we already are.

[moononthewater]

its a martial art!!!!!!!!! :bang:

[daftyman]

its a martial art!!!!!!!!! :bang:
true, but not everyone will train in taiji with an aim toward martial ability. Are we to tell them to f@@k off and bother someone else when it could do them a lot of good?

If you want to take it to the martial, then great. I do too, but I'm not going to shun someone for wanting to practice taiji purely for health. To defend themselves against illness and old age.

It just so happens that the Taoist Tai Chi society doesn't go into the martial aspect at all. Just the health/qigong side. All the best to them. They don't bother me, and if they did, I know that I could beat them up! :p:D :eek:

[StillWalking]

It just so happens that the Taoist Tai Chi society doesn't go into the martial aspect at all. Just the health/qigong side. All the best to them. They don't bother me, and if they did, I know that I could beat them up! :p:D :eek:

You can beat them up but they'll have the bigger smile :p :D

Us TTCer's don't bother anyone. Honest. There's no need to. Those that want TTC will come to the society. Those that don't, won't. It's simple really. Just like life. It takes all types, just as you say.

[moononthewater]

No thats fine some people want to learn it for health reasons but first and foremost it is a martial art and people who do not learn the martial applications even if only in gentle pushing hands are missing out a large part of the art. I just get fed up with people ignoring its martial side or even denying it.

[daftyman]

No thats fine some people want to learn it for health reasons but first and foremost it is a martial art and people who do not learn the martial applications even if only in gentle pushing hands are missing out a large part of the art. I just get fed up with people ignoring its martial side or even denying it.
I totally agree. In order to really progress you need to study two person exercises as well as form. But some still won't. Are they ignoring that side, avoiding that side, denying that side? Nothing all that wrong with the first two, but the third is definitely incorrect. It's hard to tell exactly how relaxed you are until you practice push-hands or similar. You then get to feel what relaxed is really like and you can then feed that back into your form.

Some are happy to stay in the shallows.
The rest of us go deep.
Me? I'm up to my neck in it! :D

[moononthewater]

My teacher has said most Tai Chi schools are made up of people there just for the health. But each class has 5 or 6 anoraks that want to do it all.................wheres my anorak :D :D :D

[cheesypeas]

Some are happy to stay in the shallows.
The rest of us go deep.
Me? I'm up to my neck in it! :D


I think I am in the shallows (where I feel safe) but constantly find myself in over my head because (apparently) I am ready for it!! :bang:

My cue for ranting, shouting and kicking my imaginary cat. ;)


I love it really......another layer.... :D :D

[StillWalking]

I totally agree. In order to really progress you need to study two person exercises as well as form. But some still won't. Are they ignoring that side, avoiding that side, denying that side? Nothing all that wrong with the first two, but the third is definitely incorrect. It's hard to tell exactly how relaxed you are until you practice push-hands or similar. You then get to feel what relaxed is really like and you can then feed that back into your form.
Some are happy to stay in the shallows.
The rest of us go deep.

Me? I'm up to my neck in it! :D

I just wanted to add (meant to in my original post in response to one of the posts further up this thread....this seems an appropriate point to add it), that the Taoist Tai Chi Society does teach and practice push hands in some continuing classes (not all...depends on the instructor) and at many of the workshops that are available. It is a part of the post-beginner curriculum though not all instructors are comfortable teaching it. I agree it teaches us a lot about our relaxation, balance, grounding etc and that is the reason for it being available - I have some experience of it but not as much as I would like.....roll on the next big workshop where I can get more practice.

Many TTCS members, however, are not interested in push hands or any of the other taoist arts (sword & sabre sets, lok hup ba fa, hsing i, chanting & meditation) that are made available to society members through the TTCS and it's sister organisations - the Gei Pang Lok Hup Academy and Fung Loy Kok Institute of Taoism, both also founded by Master Moy - and will just stick with the Tai Chi.

The health benefits given by these other arts are all available through TTC alone, but may take longer to access - the other arts help us understand more and develop our Tai Chi more quickly. So naturally if a member chooses not to take part in the other arts offered they generally do not progress in the same way as member who chooses to do so, but they still progress.

In addition to TTC, I am currently learning Sabre & LHBF and have enjoyed some push hands practice. Right now, I'm up to my neck in it! Yup, there is more to the TTCS than a hippy health dance.