BJJ, Judo, Sambo and Catch (this is for you, flashlock)

[TheMightyMcClaw]

So, a while back, I posted a thread to initiate a discussion on the weaknesses of BJJ, specifically geared against flashlock's claims about BJJ being the number one martial art. This thread eventually turned into a hideous mud-fight, causing it to be closed.

However, before the thread was closed, I felt I was getting to a good point, which was comparing Brazilian Jiujitsu to it's closest "brethren" martial arts; Judo, Sambo, and Catch Wrestling. I'd like to start a new discussion (mud-free!) focusing the comparison of Brazilian Jiu-jitsu with other submission grappling styles (such as the ones mentioned above), and what their relevant strengths and weaknesses. Specifically, I want to know how flashlock feels about these other martial arts, which share similar characteristics to BJJ, and have also proven themselves in mixed martial arts contests (Kazushi Sakuraba is a Catch Wrestler who has defeated numerous Gracies) and world militaries (Sambo was developed by the Russian military, and as far as I know, is still used by it).

[slipthejab]

Paging saladbar... paging saladbar... :D

[Alansmurf]

Baiting is against the TOS .......


but enjoy the fishing ..

Smurf :D :D :D

[Oversoul]

Baiting is against the TOS

Yeah, but is this really baiting?

[TheMightyMcClaw]

Paging saladbar... paging saladbar... :D

You be nice, Slip. I don't want this thread to get closed too.

[callsignfuzzy]

Actually, I've been looking at a similar thing, but from the CACC standpoint.

Sambo: my understanding is that the sport Sambo rules disallow chokes, and that one can win with a clean throw. Leglocks are also emphasized, and I believe the guard is typically seen as a bad possition for the guy on the bottom 'cause of this. However, I'm only about 85% certain of everything I've just said, as I've got limited knowledge of Sambo.

Judo: it's been said eleventy billion times before, but BJJ has its roots in Judo. If you look at the old-school Judo rules, there was more time alloted for ne-waza (ground techniques), so in the past these were given more emphasis. "Combat Judo" was a fighting system adopted by the US military during WWII, perhaps validating Judo as a military fighting system, or at least the root of one. These days, the emphasis is on throws, with limited ground-grappling, and so it has a reputation of having killer throws, clinchfighting and takedowns compared to BJJ, while generally having noticably poorer ground skills. Judo competitions can also be won via pinfall, which means that possitional dominance is looked at a little differently than in BJJ.

Catch-as-Catch-Can: in the US, the rules for CACC matches allowed for a winner by pinfall or submission, hence being on ones back was considered a bad possition. Generally, choking was not allowed; however, a "half-choke", where the forearm is against the throat but there's no counter-pressure, was allowed. It should be noted, though, that in the manual reprints that I have, full chokes like the "sleeper" (RNC) are demonstrated, even though their illegal nature was clearly stated. Some matches also allowed for a winner by "rolling fall", where a person is thrown and, for the briefest instant, their four points (shoulders & hips) touch the ground, though this was apparently not the standard. Nearly any hold imaginable was allowed, including neck cranks, body scissors, ankle twists, shoulder locks, and elbow compressions. The "double wrist lock" (kimura) and the nelson series seem to have been the most popular holds. Compared to your typical BJJ curriculum, their weakness would be a lack of a bottom game, or at least a limited one, and a lack of gi techniques, though seeing as CACC was competed without the gi, it wasn't really an issue within the system. The strengths, to me, are the wider variety of holds and the fact that both the standup and ground game were given attention. As a side note, I think I read somewhere that Lancashire Catch disallowed or de-emphasised pins, so I'd imagine that they had a bottom game and/or were more inclusive with their submissions. I'd actually include Sakuraba and other "catch wrestlers" trained in Japan as "hybrid wrestlers", since there was none of the emphasis on the pin and I'm pretty sure some Judo crept into the systems used in Pancrase, Shooto, and the like, though I could just be splitting hairs here.

[KempoFist]

I have never trained any grappling style but BJJ, but after discussion with numerous Judo players, they all admit that BJJ has evolved the ground game further than Judo ever did. Coming up with never-before seen ways to submit people, and transitions into those submissions, and creating easy to utilize flows from sub to sub, making it truly a game of speed chess is something distinctive to BJJ.

But there are Judo schools out there, who have notorious ground grapplers, and they clean house at submission and BJJ tournaments such as NAGA and Grapplers Quest. But most of those schools have BJJ affiliates, or cross-train themselves.

[Davey Bones]

However, before the thread was closed, I felt I was getting to a good point, which was comparing Brazilian Jiujitsu to it's closest "brethren" martial arts; Judo, Sambo, and Catch Wrestling. I'd like to start a new discussion (mud-free!) focusing the comparison of Brazilian Jiu-jitsu with other submission grappling styles (such as the ones mentioned above), and what their relevant strengths and weaknesses.

Can we toss Shuai Jiao in the mix as well? I'm curious to see how folks perceive the two. And if Judo can be included, certainly SJ can. I can offer something more in-depth (kind of, anyway... don't expect any nutriding) in a few weeks once I get a better handle on the new BJJ classes.

[JayKayD]

Do you have a source about Shuai Jiao? i really don't know anything about it, but i'm interested in all things grappling.

[KempoFist]

Do you have a source about Shuai Jiao? i really don't know anything about it, but i'm interested in all things grappling.

Well in that case, lets not forget about Tai Chi! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fGTxDEa92B8

[Davey Bones]

Do you have a source about Shuai Jiao? i really don't know anything about it, but i'm interested in all things grappling.

It's mostly a throwing art, although it does incorporate locks and groundwork. I guess the closest comparison I would make would be with Judo. Very similar from my (limited) understanding of Judo. Just not much of an emphasis on pins and the like.

Anyway, as internet sources are mostly the total suxxor, the best book I can think of would be "Chinese Fast Wrestling for Fighting". Pretty good book. Most of the websites I found suck completely.

You be nice, Slip. I don't want this thread to get closed too.

btw, you kinda asked for it by putting flashlock's name in the friggin title of the thread, McClaw. You shall give yourself a facepalm for that, to be administered immediately.

And Kempo, you behave! (Like that'll happen).

[Gufbal1981]

It's mostly a throwing art, although it does incorporate locks and groundwork. I guess the closest comparison I would make would be with Judo. Very similar from my (limited) understanding of Judo. Just not much of an emphasis on pins and the like.

And Kempo, you behave! (Like that'll happen).

Anyway, as internet sources are mostly the total suxxor, the best book I can think of would be "Chinese Fast Wrestling for Fighting". Pretty good book. Most of the websites I found suck completely.

Amazing! I have that same book! I like it too. Lots of good techniques and pictures in it.

[Davey Bones]

Amazing! I have that same book! I like it too.

It's one of the few decent sources on the art. Even my old kwoon's webpage gives an absolutely terrible description of the art... just enough to get the reader's attention, but not too in-depth. It's frustrating when trying to direct people to a resource.

[TheMightyMcClaw]

It's mostly a throwing art, although it does incorporate locks and groundwork. I guess the closest comparison I would make would be with Judo. Very similar from my (limited) understanding of Judo. Just not much of an emphasis on pins and the like.

And Kempo, you behave! (Like that'll happen).

Anyway, as internet sources are mostly the total suxxor, the best book I can think of would be "Chinese Fast Wrestling for Fighting". Pretty good book. Most of the websites I found suck completely.

Interesting. I was under the impression that Shuai Jiao was only about the throw - locks and groundwork were outside of it's domain.

Personally, I think a training regimen of Shuai Jiao (for throwing) and BJJ (for groundwork) would make a very well rounded grappler, much for the same reasons that people will cross train BJJ with judo or wrestling. When scholastics require me to haul myself over to China again, I'm hoping I can find a good Shuai Jiao coach.

[Davey Bones]

Interesting. I was under the impression that Shuai Jiao was only about the throw - locks and groundwork were outside of it's domain.

Not modern Shuai Jiao. Modern Shuai Jiao does incorporate groundwork. Not necessarily to the extent of BJJ or wrestling, but it's there. Trust me, it was part of my old Kwoon's curriculum. 19th Lohan is a great resource for Shuai Jiao.

Personally, I think a training regimen of Shuai Jiao (for throwing) and BJJ (for groundwork) would make a very well rounded grappler, much for the same reasons that people will cross train BJJ with judo or wrestling. When scholastics require me to haul myself over to China again, I'm hoping I can find a good Shuai Jiao coach.

I'll let you know in a few weeks... I just started my BJJ class last night ;)

[JayKayD]

It's one of the few decent sources on the art. Even my old kwoon's webpage gives an absolutely terrible description of the art... just enough to get the reader's attention, but not too in-depth. It's frustrating when trying to direct people to a resource.

Damn you all, making me spend my money. I only just spent £45 buying Gene Lebells 'Encylopedia of Finishing Holds'!

[flashlock]

Judo, Sambo, and Catch Wrestling. I'd like to start a new discussion (mud-free!) focusing the comparison of Brazilian Jiu-jitsu with other submission grappling styles (such as the ones mentioned above), and what their relevant strengths and weaknesses.

Specifically, I want to know how flashlock feels about these other martial arts, which share similar characteristics to BJJ, and have also proven themselves in mixed martial arts contests (Kazushi Sakuraba is a Catch Wrestler who has defeated numerous Gracies) and world militaries (Sambo was developed by the Russian military, and as far as I know, is still used by it).

I don't see the point of offering any opinion. I've tried to be honest and open, and have gotten attacked and mocked for it en mass. I have no experience in the arts you've mentioned; I can't even begin because even if I had 5 years experience in each of those arts, people would say I need 6. If I had 6, I'd need 10 (at least, salad bar! And how do you get experience in all these arts unless you are... a salad bar MA?). When I cited my instructor's years of experience, then experience became a bad thing--he is "10 years behind". You see, nothing can be done, and when someone, like you, really wants to learn and have an open debate, it just gets shut down and lost in the complete idiocy of some of the other members.

You seem sincere, McClaw. All I can tell you is--and this might be way off base--BJJ is beautiful and it works. By beauty, I mean it is elegant in its simplicity, and within that simplicity lies an anti-intuitive complexity. It stems from the art of the samurai, jiujutsu. Before BJJ, I used to think I had an inkling of what self-defense and MA was. After being exposed to it--I see I knew nothing. I had the clues, but not the whole picture.

What are the main differences between BJJ and these other arts you've mentioned?

Thanks.

[Linguo]

Actually, I've been looking at a similar thing, but from the CACC standpoint.

Sambo: my understanding is that the sport Sambo rules disallow chokes, and that one can win with a clean throw. Leglocks are also emphasized, and I believe the guard is typically seen as a bad possition for the guy on the bottom 'cause of this. However, I'm only about 85% certain of everything I've just said, as I've got limited knowledge of Sambo.

From wiki:

* Sport Sambo (Borba Sambo) is stylistically similar to amateur wrestling or Judo. The competition is similar to Judo, but with some differences in rules, protocol, and uniform. For example, in contrast with Judo, Sambo allows all types of leg locks, while not allowing chokeholds.
* Self-defense Sambo, which is similar to Aikijutsu, jujitsu or Aikido, and is based on self-defense application, such as defending against attacks by both armed and unarmed attackers.
* Combat Sambo (Russian: Boyevoye Sambo). Utilized and developed for the military, this is arguably the root of Sambo as it is now known, and includes practice with weapons and disarming techniques. Competition in combat sambo resembles older forms of judo and modern mixed martial arts, including extensive forms of striking and grappling.
* Special Sambo - developed for Army Special Forces and Rapid Reaction Police (Militsija) teams and other law enforcement formations. The "Special Sambo" version differ from team to team due to different tasks and aims, however the base of any special system developed in that field is of course Sambo. The brightest example of the police special sambo is Volk Han.

There's also a version of sambo known as Freestyle Sambo, which is basically no-gi grappling and allows for chokes, unlike Sport Sambo.

[Bronze Statue]

...comparing Brazilian Jiujitsu to it's closest "brethren" martial arts; Judo, Sambo, and Catch Wrestling...

Sambo all the way. From my experience, good Vodka is far more accessible in North America than is good Cachaca or Shochu. :D

[KempoFist]

I just started my BJJ class last night ;)

Welcome to the dark side :D

[TheMightyMcClaw]

From wiki:

* Sport Sambo (Borba Sambo) is stylistically similar to amateur wrestling or Judo. The competition is similar to Judo, but with some differences in rules, protocol, and uniform. For example, in contrast with Judo, Sambo allows all types of leg locks, while not allowing chokeholds.
* Self-defense Sambo, which is similar to Aikijutsu, jujitsu or Aikido, and is based on self-defense application, such as defending against attacks by both armed and unarmed attackers.
* Combat Sambo (Russian: Boyevoye Sambo). Utilized and developed for the military, this is arguably the root of Sambo as it is now known, and includes practice with weapons and disarming techniques. Competition in combat sambo resembles older forms of judo and modern mixed martial arts, including extensive forms of striking and grappling.
* Special Sambo - developed for Army Special Forces and Rapid Reaction Police (Militsija) teams and other law enforcement formations. The "Special Sambo" version differ from team to team due to different tasks and aims, however the base of any special system developed in that field is of course Sambo. The brightest example of the police special sambo is Volk Han.

There's also a version of sambo known as Freestyle Sambo, which is basically no-gi grappling and allows for chokes, unlike Sport Sambo.


Interesting... a lot of these seem to reflect the different facets of Brazilian Jiujitsu. There is sport BJJ, and BJJ for mixed martial arts, and the oft-forgotten BJJ self-defense syllabus.... even the concept of Freestyle Sambo sounds very similar to no-gi BJJ; the addition of chokes mirroring the higher prevalence of leg locks in no-gi.

flashlock.... I'm not meaning to call you out or attack you or anything. Given your previous strong statements regarding Brazilian Jiujitsu in comparison to other martial arts, I'd like to know how this plays out with other systems which are similar to BJJ in technical application and have similar 'track records' in open competition and military service.

[flashlock]

Interesting... a lot of these seem to reflect the different facets of Brazilian Jiujitsu. There is sport BJJ, and BJJ for mixed martial arts, and the oft-forgotten BJJ self-defense syllabus.... even the concept of Freestyle Sambo sounds very similar to no-gi BJJ; the addition of chokes mirroring the higher prevalence of leg locks in no-gi.

flashlock.... I'm not meaning to call you out or attack you or anything. Given your previous strong statements regarding Brazilian Jiujitsu in comparison to other martial arts, I'd like to know how this plays out with other systems which are similar to BJJ in technical application and have similar 'track records' in open competition and military service.

A lot of those arts you mentioned derived from jiujutsu. I personally believe BJJ is, currently, the highest form of JJ. As for Judo, BJJ blows it out of the water; I'm sorry to the Judo guys, but from what I've learned it is much weaker. You can point to instances of catch or sambo defeating BJJ, but that is nothing compared to the overwhelming success BJJ has had all-around, and just look at how many fighters study BJJ compared to everything else... it's just an easy choice.

[KempoFist]

A lot of those arts you mentioned derived from jiujutsu. I personally believe BJJ is, currently, the highest form of JJ. As for Judo, BJJ blows it out of the water; I'm sorry to the Judo guys, but from what I've learned it is much weaker. You can point to instances of catch or sambo defeating BJJ, but that is nothing compared to the overwhelming success BJJ has had all-around, and just look at how many fighters study BJJ compared to everything else... it's just an easy choice.

Um....erm....I'm torn....I don't know what to say.....I agree with what you're saying....just not how you're saying it.....

[Oversoul]

Catch is a bit of an enigma. There have definitely been some practitioners that used it, but they don't seem all that numerous or visible at the moment and nailing down a "style" that catchwrestlers have isn't as easy as it might be with judo, sambo, or BJJ. Possibly because I don't see catchwrestling competitions being held anywhere, but the other three do have rulesets and tournaments. That said, there do appear to be some general trends. Catchwrestlers seem to like to go for top positions on the ground. They seem more willing to give up a good position while going for a submission than do other stylists. I've seen catchwrestlers diving for leglocks, especially toeholds (which they seem to like) more than other stylists seem to. Keylocks also seem pretty big. The standup varies a lot. It's better adapted for grappling without a jacket than judo or sambo. I guess it kind of resembles freestyle wrestling, but not as refined.

Sambo has a lot of variation in its rulesets. With combat sambo you get a lot of striking. Samboists seem to rely a lot on the standard cross armbar and seem more inclined to attempt the flying variant. They also seem to have a greater emphasis on leglocks than other styles, which might be partially due to the fact that they wear shoes. Standup looks a bit like a cross between judo and wrestling.

Judo is the one I have the most experience with. The standup is a major focus and is pretty sophisticated. There are a variety of hip throws, leg throws, foot sweeps, pick-ups, sacrifice throws, hand throws, and other takedowns. Most of the throws are pretty adapted to both parties wearing a gi. The ground game is focuses on positions like side control, the mount, scarf holds, and north/south because they're positions that won't get the fight stood back up and also because they score points. Most submissions are keylocks, cross armbars, or gi chokes and tend to be applied while on top of the opponent and sometimes from the open guard. Because stand-ups tend to happen so quickly, there is a lot of scrambling for position and stalling by a competitor in a bad position.

Comparing BJJ to these, I think one important difference is the lack of stand-ups. In judo, the rear naked choke isn't even considered a very good choke. In BJJ, it's arguably the most powerful submission. I think this is partially because in judo (or sambo with the rules that allow chokes), there isn't sufficient time to execute the choke against an intelligently defending opponent. This says something about BJJ, but it also says something about the move. It would appear that we have a submission that is very, very good if you have unlimited time to work it, but becomes worse in proportion to the time restriction placed on it. Are judo/sambo people just not good enough at applying the choke? Are they simply better at defending it than at attacking with it? Or is all this just a natural feature of the move (maybe it just takes more time to sink this choke)? Of course, whether this is good or bad for BJJ depends on your perspective. Some would argue that if the move takes so long to sink, it's not worth bothering anyway, that moves which catch the opponent instantly are more useful/applicable. Others might argue that judo/sambo are missing out on an important part of grappling.

Another consequence of the increased ground time is the proliferation of unorthodox positions. In judo/sambo I've seen open guard, closed guard, and half guard. That's about it. BJJ seems to regularly feature butterfly guard, half-butterfly guard, spider guard, x-guard, de la riva guard, rubber guard, etc. Some are obviously more prevalent than others. But is this an advantage or disadvantage? I don't really know.

I think if any of the differences are a glaring weakness for BJJ, it would be the standup problem. When you can spend so much time on the ground and it's bound to go there anyway, there's not very much need for a sophisticated standup game. And this brings up what I believe to be a weakness in judo/sambo: these practitioners get used to being stood up by the rules. As such, I've never seen any of them train standup techniques from any ground position (techniques to get back to your feet when you want to do so and the other person might want to stop you). When I wrestled in high school, standups were huge. I was more into reversals myself, but I still learned how to stand up and used it in matches. In judo matches, the techniques my opponents use to stand up (after I've reversed them with one of my awesome reversals) is curling up in a ball and waiting for the referee. I dislike this--a lot.

But let's say I were actually good (I'm not). I can use my superior clinching/throwing skills (actually, I suck at throws) to gain top position when on the ground. If the BJJ-er uses his superior ground skills to work for guard or reverse me and get a better position, I can use my standups to get back to my feet and try again until either I get caught with a submission or I catch the BJJ-er with a submission. In this hypothetical (and ridiculous, since I suck) situation, I'd say I have the advantage. Maybe no one aspect of my ground game is quite as good as my BJJ-based opponent, but it's at least good enough that after I've thrown him and have side control or whatever I'll be in a good spot to try to finish him. It's a weakness I can exploit to a certain extent--I almost always land on top when the fight goes to the ground and I am skilled at getting back to my feet if I'm in a position I don't like. My opponent has no comparable tool against me. Whenever we're standing I have the advantage, and some of the time we're on the ground I have the advantage.

This can easily be mitigated if BJJ-ers develop better standup. And I think most of them do ( and even among the ones that don't cross-train there is a judo/wrestling-derived standup game). Just like most judoka attempt at having some proficiency on the ground rather than relying on stalling to stay on the feet. But in both cases it's technically not necessary. There are those who can an will avoid expanding their skillsets. And short of changing the competition rules I'm not sure how this could be fixed. I guess the easiest answer is cross-training.

Still if I were to change something, I'd be more interested in lessening or even eliminating the standups from judo/sambo than trying to fix BJJ's deficiency of standing techniques. Being able to stall for ten seconds (or less) and avoid any other groundwork is a much bigger problem in my eyes than having people that pull guard and avoid any other standup.

[flashlock]

Comparing BJJ to these, I think one important difference is the lack of stand-ups. In judo, the rear naked choke isn't even considered a very good choke. In BJJ, it's arguably the most powerful submission. .

But you can't perform a RNC on a high level BJJ person--it almost never happens at high level in BJJ comps. It happens so many times in UFC type matches because most of those guys' BJJ sucks.

[/QUOTE] I think this is partially because in judo (or sambo with the rules that allow chokes), there isn't sufficient time to execute the choke against an intelligently defending opponent. This says something about BJJ, but it also says something about the move. It would appear that we have a submission that is very, very good if you have unlimited time to work it, but becomes worse in proportion to the time restriction placed on it. .[/QUOTE]

I don't know... I guess it's situational. Once the choke is on, it takes mere seconds to make the person pass out. Getting to it vs a skilled opponent... very difficult (time consuming).

.[/QUOTE] I think if any of the differences are a glaring weakness for BJJ, it would be the standup problem. When you can spend so much time on the ground and it's bound to go there anyway, there's not very much need for a sophisticated standup game. .[/QUOTE]

Um... yeah... and? Why would you want/need a sophisticated stand-up game if a simple one will do? Sophisticated = better? K.I.S.S. If I wanted to be controversial, I could say BJJ's stand up game was better than stand up focused arts--because it solves the problem quite easily (feint, shoot/ throw).

No, I'm not ignorant of the thousands of times stand up guys have succesfully sprawled and brawled... I think that is more about the lack of the shooter's technique than the inadequacy of BJJ's answers.

.[/QUOTE] But let's say I were actually good (I'm not). I can use my superior clinching/throwing skills (actually, I suck at throws) to gain top position when on the ground. If the BJJ-er uses his superior ground skills to work for guard or reverse me and get a better position, I can use my standups to get back to my feet and try again until either I get caught with a submission or I catch the BJJ-er with a submission. In this hypothetical (and ridiculous, since I suck) situation, I'd say I have the advantage..[/QUOTE]

Wha-wha-... WHAT? Your hypothetical just sounds like an even fight. Anything could happen, but when you're on the ground, as you've hypothesized, your big answer is that you can use your "standups to get back to my feet and try again..."? I think you're kind of... leaving out some things? Before you can "stand up" you'd probably have to get to an advantageous position first, that means you'd have to know what you're doing on the ground. So, are you taking BJJ to fill this yawning hole in your game? :D

.[/QUOTE] Maybe no one aspect of my ground game is quite as good as my BJJ-based opponent, but it's at least good enough that after I've thrown him and have side control or whatever I'll be in a good spot to try to finish him. .[/QUOTE]

Just curious... how many BJJ guys have you sparred with? It just sounds like none, because I... can't believe what you're writing! Sorry, I'm not ripping on you, but you cannot be serious! You're looking for submissions? Try to get one from a blue belt. Maybe you will do well, but most don't.

So, how many blue belts or above have you grappled with? If not many, hey, no problem, I see where you are coming from with your theories. But if you haven't, just go to a club and roll with them for 30 mins! I think you'll get quite a wake up call, but who knows, everyone is different.

Hm... I'm sounded like some of my forum opponents! The difference is, I'm not saying study BJJ for 5 years before you can have an opinion, but it's such an important, fashionable art right now, try it for, oh, 3 months? Try ONE class with a purple or above. I'm not a bloody MA expert--but I've studied MA and enjoyed it, and I've met and worked with world class people. Man, nothing compares to BJJ. I'm talking 10 X better than anything else out there that I've seen. Try it, then tell me how easy it was as you've outlined above.

[NewLearner]

A lot of those arts you mentioned derived from jiujutsu. I personally believe BJJ is, currently, the highest form of JJ. As for Judo, BJJ blows it out of the water; I'm sorry to the Judo guys, but from what I've learned it is much weaker. You can point to instances of catch or sambo defeating BJJ, but that is nothing compared to the overwhelming success BJJ has had all-around, and just look at how many fighters study BJJ compared to everything else... it's just an easy choice.

Not really that familar with Sambo, but I don't think catch wrestling came from jj.

As far as bjj being the highest form of jj, I am not sure that is a logical form either. Judo might say the same thing because they tend to be far superior at takedowns and throws.

From what I know (which admittedly is not that much), bjj is probably the best at submissions. However, it is probably the worst at takedowns and takedown defense. I would also say that sambo and wrestling is better at positioning.

Is there really such an overriding success of bjj in the ufc? Royce did exceptionally well against people with no grappling skill. Yet when he and Shamrock were in their heyday, they had a draw and Shamrock was a shoot fighter. Shouldn't Gracie have won since he used bjj if it was superior?

Look at the top people today. Hughes, a wrestler, who defeated the Prodigy Penn. Liddel who is Kemp with some bjj who has lost to wrestlers but is primarily a striker and out of all his fights has only had one submission. Couture, Ortiz, Evans, and tons of others are far more wrestling oriented.

Does anyone that wants to succeed in mma need to spend some time crosstraining in bjj or a lot of submissions? Absolutely. Just like a bjj blackbelt that doesn't crosstrain will lose in mma.

Is there really more people training in bjj than anything else? No. Not even remotely.

[Davey Bones]

Welcome to the dark side :D

I was wondering who would pick up on it :p

[NewLearner]

Catch is a bit of an enigma. There have definitely been some practitioners that used it, but they don't seem all that numerous or visible at the moment and nailing down a "style" that catchwrestlers have isn't as easy as it might be with judo, sambo, or BJJ. Possibly because I don't see catchwrestling competitions being held anywhere, but the other three do have rulesets and tournaments. That said, there do appear to be some general trends. Catchwrestlers seem to like to go for top positions on the ground. They seem more willing to give up a good position while going for a submission than do other stylists. I've seen catchwrestlers diving for leglocks, especially toeholds (which they seem to like) more than other stylists seem to. Keylocks also seem pretty big. The standup varies a lot. It's better adapted for grappling without a jacket than judo or sambo. I guess it kind of resembles freestyle wrestling, but not as refined.

Pretty accurate assessment. Since all the major competitions in mma are no gi, that seems to be a good reason for studying it. However, in self defense, how many opponents will be without a shirt?

Comparing BJJ to these, I think one important difference is the lack of stand-ups. In judo, the rear naked choke isn't even considered a very good choke. In BJJ, it's arguably the most powerful submission. I think this is partially because in judo (or sambo with the rules that allow chokes), there isn't sufficient time to execute the choke against an intelligently defending opponent. This says something about BJJ, but it also says something about the move. It would appear that we have a submission that is very, very good if you have unlimited time to work it, but becomes worse in proportion to the time restriction placed on it. Are judo/sambo people just not good enough at applying the choke? Are they simply better at defending it than at attacking with it? Or is all this just a natural feature of the move (maybe it just takes more time to sink this choke)? Of course, whether this is good or bad for BJJ depends on your perspective. Some would argue that if the move takes so long to sink, it's not worth bothering anyway, that moves which catch the opponent instantly are more useful/applicable. Others might argue that judo/sambo are missing out on an important part of grappling.
The lack of standups is one of the keys to the strategy of sport bjj. Because they will not be stood up, it tends to be a much more patient match.

Another consequence of the increased ground time is the proliferation of unorthodox positions. In judo/sambo I've seen open guard, closed guard, and half guard. That's about it. BJJ seems to regularly feature butterfly guard, half-butterfly guard, spider guard, x-guard, de la riva guard, rubber guard, etc. Some are obviously more prevalent than others. But is this an advantage or disadvantage? I don't really know.
I would really figure that as an advantage of bjj with having more flexibility in the ground game.

I think if any of the differences are a glaring weakness for BJJ, it would be the standup problem. When you can spend so much time on the ground and it's bound to go there anyway, there's not very much need for a sophisticated standup game. And this brings up what I believe to be a weakness in judo/sambo: these practitioners get used to being stood up by the rules. As such, I've never seen any of them train standup techniques from any ground position (techniques to get back to your feet when you want to do so and the other person might want to stop you). When I wrestled in high school, standups were huge. I was more into reversals myself, but I still learned how to stand up and used it in matches. In judo matches, the techniques my opponents use to stand up (after I've reversed them with one of my awesome reversals) is curling up in a ball and waiting for the referee. I dislike this--a lot.
I have found the same problem. Like yourself, I came from a strong wrestling background before doing a short stint in judo and doing some crosstraining in bjj today. Our bjj coach (we are a tkd school that added some crosstraining) is not a blackbelt or even any type of certified gracie instructor, but studied exclusively bjj for years before coming to our school and helping in this area. He can't do squat in takedowns or defense against me. I can usually move and position him very well. I can stand up against pretty good. Yet he submits me a lot.

[JayKayD]

Um... yeah... and? Why would you want/need a sophisticated stand-up game if a simple one will do? Sophisticated = better? K.I.S.S. If I wanted to be controversial, I could say BJJ's stand up game was better than stand up focused arts--because it solves the problem quite easily (feint, shoot/ throw).


So having a worse standup game is actually better? hahaha, thats some strange logic. Yes sophisticated does = better. You could say exactly the same thing about groundwork. Judo's groundgame is much simpler than BJJ's, and i bet you'd be the first to say BJJs is better.

So Judo's standup is more sophisticated than BJJ's, but in this case you think simpler is better.

Yet BJJ's groundwork is more sophisticated than Judo's, but this time being sophisticated is better.

You started off well by saying that you had no experience of those other arts so you weren't going to comment, but then you had to go and make a load of ignorant nutrider comments anyway.

[EternalRage]

Wha-wha-... WHAT? Your hypothetical just sounds like an even fight. Anything could happen, but when you're on the ground, as you've hypothesized, your big answer is that you can use your "standups to get back to my feet and try again..."? I think you're kind of... leaving out some things? Before you can "stand up" you'd probably have to get to an advantageous position first, that means you'd have to know what you're doing on the ground. So, are you taking BJJ to fill this yawning hole in your game?
I think he's basically just saying that since a Judo guy's standup in this theoretical matchup would be better than a BJJ guy's standup, he'd begin with the tactical advantage, because he can get the BJJ guy on the ground and be in a dominant position to start off with. The BJJ guy would have to first escape and then work his game, but he starts at a disadvantage. Theoretically. Since the Judo guy is in the more advantageous spot, if it looks like he's about to get reversed into a bad position, he could use one of his "stand up" techniques and get back to his feet to regain advantage. Theoretically.

The only problem I forsee in this argument is that altho the BJJ guy might be put at an early disadvantage from a successful Judo throw, you still have to realize that you're taking him into his home town. The ground is where he eats, sleeps, poops, dreams. It's his bread and butter. The "stand up" techniques would have to be damn fast, and you'd have to be pretty sensitive as a Judo guy on the ground to feel the BJJ guy reversing the situation. (But it is possible).

Anyway, to fuel the style war:
Gracies Invade a Judo School in 1988
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-3798914820158882836

Rickson vs Nishioka
http://youtube.com/watch?v=q4JUpT8rEow

[callsignfuzzy]

Not really that familar with Sambo, but I don't think catch wrestling came from jj.

That's true as stated, though it would seem that there was some cross-over for both systems. In the book "Blue Blood on the Mat", I think it was mentioned that, at least in the US, the idea of subs as a legit way to finish of an opponent was partially influenced by judo/jujitsu. The reason some wrestlers prefered subs was 'cause some guys were too big to adequately pin (one of the Zbyskos is mentioned). Meanwhile, "Count Coma", the guy that brought the Gracies their judo/jujitsu, had also studied CACC. So BJJ may have some catch influence, possibly in the leglock department.

I always found it funny that the Gracies talk about the Kimura lock as if they first discovered it when Kimura fought Helio. The funny thing is, that match was in 1955, but Judo and Catch manuals predating that clearly show the same hold (ude-garami or double wrist lock, respectively).

I could say BJJ's stand up game was better than stand up focused arts--because it solves the problem quite easily (feint, shoot/ throw).

That's not going to work against someone with a modicum of grappling experience. You're also not taking into consideration that once the gap has been bridged, someone with good balance will be able to avoid the unskilled takedown that's typical of the strategy you describe.

As for Judo, BJJ blows it out of the water; I'm sorry to the Judo guys, but from what I've learned it is much weaker. You can point to instances of catch or sambo defeating BJJ, but that is nothing compared to the overwhelming success BJJ has had all-around, and just look at how many fighters study BJJ compared to everything else... it's just an easy choice.

BJJ blows Judo out of the water? In the ground game, certainly. I don't think anyone will deny that. But in the stand-up, Judo's throws are better than anything typically taught in a BJJ class. They're not so "weak" once they drop you on your head a few times.

To the best of my knowledge, Sambo and Catch have mostly stayed within their own circles. They didn't see the need to challenge other systems. That's why you're not going to see tapes of the "Lou Thesz Challenge". Though I know for certain that at various times, Catch has faced off with boxing, as well as Judo/Jujitsu. I can look up some stats, if you need proof of that.

The number of fighters training BJJ compared to the others may have more to do with the availibility of BJJ schools than anything else. Sambo is popular primarily in Russia & Eastern Europe; CACC is nearly a lost art. I have to drive 2.5 hours to find a guy who emphasized Catch-based grappling, and excluding CSW, there are maybe a dozen legit CACC schools in the US. There are probably a dozen legit BJJ schools within a half-hour drive from where I am. Your reasoning is faulty here. If I went back to the 80's, I could use that same logic and say that TKD was the best art, 'cause that's what most people trained.

Why would you want/need a sophisticated stand-up game if a simple one will do?

Because simple ones don't always work. Most of the BJJ guys I train with, unless they've also trained wrestling or Judo, can't complete a takedown against an equally-skilled opponent or better. You need a sophisticated stand-up game 'cause sometimes your single-leg trip doesn't work, and if that's all you've got, then your killer ground game becomes null and void. For an untrained opponent it's not a bad strategy, but what if the other guy doesn't know that he's supposed to suck?

I think Oversoul's got a good point about BJJ not being complete. He's good enough at takedowns and top control to probably avoid the ground, if he wanted too, against the typical BJJ guy. I know I am, and I've only been doing BJJ since January. The guys who train BJJ at my gym typically are only there for the BJJ, so when you see them in Judo or MMA class, they're suddenly fish out of water. Their takedowns, throws, and strikes are all mechanically wrong, unless they've had prior experience in wrestling, TKD, or what have you. In a true NHB situation, I'm confident in my ability to either defeat them in the stand-up, avoid their typically sloppy takedowns, and either stalemate, GNP, or submit them on the ground.

... and part of that is 'cause I come from a no-gi, Western wrestling style which emphasizes the stand-up game as well as the ground game.

[TheMightyMcClaw]

I've noticed the "position before submission" attitude seems to not be as prevalent in other styles of submission grappling. In my judo training, submissions always seemed to be treated as something you do when you can't get a pin. From the descriptions of catch wrestling, there seems to be a similar attitude of "position OR submission."

[TheMightyMcClaw]

To the best of my knowledge, Sambo and Catch have mostly stayed within their own circles. They didn't see the need to challenge other systems. That's why you're not going to see tapes of the "Lou Thesz Challenge". Though I know for certain that at various times, Catch has faced off with boxing, as well as Judo/Jujitsu. I can look up some stats, if you need proof of that.




I don't think the challenge match mentality is as strong as BJJ, but it's still there. You yourself mentioned the Catch vs. Judo matches, and we have a number of Sambo guys (Fedor, Arlovski) who fight in major MMA events.

[NewLearner]

I think he's basically just saying that since a Judo guy's standup in this theoretical matchup would be better than a BJJ guy's standup, he'd begin with the tactical advantage, because he can get the BJJ guy on the ground and be in a dominant position to start off with. The BJJ guy would have to first escape and then work his game, but he starts at a disadvantage. Theoretically. Since the Judo guy is in the more advantageous spot, if it looks like he's about to get reversed into a bad position, he could use one of his "stand up" techniques and get back to his feet to regain advantage. Theoretically.

The only problem I forsee in this argument is that altho the BJJ guy might be put at an early disadvantage from a successful Judo throw, you still have to realize that you're taking him into his home town. The ground is where he eats, sleeps, poops, dreams. It's his bread and butter. The "stand up" techniques would have to be damn fast, and you'd have to be pretty sensitive as a Judo guy on the ground to feel the BJJ guy reversing the situation. (But it is possible).
Anyway, to fuel the style war:
Gracies Invade a Judo School in 1988
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-3798914820158882836

Rickson vs Nishioka
http://youtube.com/watch?v=q4JUpT8rEow

Or alternatively, constantly throw and standup immediately while the person is recovering from hitting the ground. Getting slammed to the ground hard helps to take the fight out of you and slows you down. If I were going to really fight a bjj guy, that is what I would do. Strike from range with throws and takedowns and be on my feet as much as possible. Stay out of his strength and in mine.

[KempoFist]

ya know what my problem is with these types of discussions? It's that all these arts and styles, train properly, albeit at their own niche of the game. Together they complement each other, separate and having practitioners of each competing against each other, really only shows who can impose their gameplan the best, and who is the better fighter, not which is the better art.

It's ironic, because this is exactly what people accuse me of doing when in style vs style arguments on the main board, where I am bashing someone for "dead" training, and they all whine about how "all arts are dangerous in the right hands," and "It's not the style it's the individual" type idiocy. Difference here, is that all the styles listed, pressure test and train their stuff live, and in most cases compete with it. Trying to pinpoint which is the "best" really is a moot point.

[NewLearner]

ya know what my problem is with these types of discussions? It's that all these arts and styles, train properly, albeit at their own niche of the game. Together they complement each other, separate and having practitioners of each competing against each other, really only shows who can impose their gameplan the best, and who is the better fighter, not which is the better art.
It's ironic, because this is exactly what people accuse me of doing when in style vs style arguments on the main board, where I am bashing someone for "dead" training, and they all whine about how "all arts are dangerous in the right hands," and "It's not the style it's the individual" type idiocy. Difference here, is that all the styles listed, pressure test and train their stuff live, and in most cases compete with it. Trying to pinpoint which is the "best" really is a moot point.
I think that is one of the best posts I have seen from you. Very true.

[TheMightyMcClaw]

ya know what my problem is with these types of discussions? It's that all these arts and styles, train properly, albeit at their own niche of the game. Together they complement each other, separate and having practitioners of each competing against each other, really only shows who can impose their gameplan the best, and who is the better fighter, not which is the better art.

It's ironic, because this is exactly what people accuse me of doing when in style vs style arguments on the main board, where I am bashing someone for "dead" training, and they all whine about how "all arts are dangerous in the right hands," and "It's not the style it's the individual" type idiocy. Difference here, is that all the styles listed, pressure test and train their stuff live, and in most cases compete with it. Trying to pinpoint which is the "best" really is a moot point.

I'm not trying to figure out "is BJJ best?" or "Is Catch Wrestling best?" or anything like that. I just want to discuss the relative merits, similarities, and differences of different styles of submission grappling. I don't mean for this to be a Style vs Style thread; just a comparison.
Also, I think that submission grappling styles are easier to compare, because they are a) heavily defined by a competitive aspect and b) relatively similar. Trying to say, compare Goju Ryu karate and Yoshinkan Aikido would be much more difficult, as they are very different from one another, and do not have defining competitive aspects.

[KempoFist]

I'm not trying to figure out "is BJJ best?" or "Is Catch Wrestling best?" or anything like that. I just want to discuss the relative merits, similarities, and differences of different styles of submission grappling. I don't mean for this to be a Style vs Style thread; just a comparison.
Also, I think that submission grappling styles are easier to compare, because they are a) heavily defined by a competitive aspect and b) relatively similar. Trying to say, compare Goju Ryu karate and Yoshinkan Aikido would be much more difficult, as they are very different from one another, and do not have defining competitive aspects.

I should have clarified. My post wasn't directed at you, but rather the turn in direction the thread has taken.

[Oversoul]

ya know what my problem is with these types of discussions? It's that all these arts and styles, train properly, albeit at their own niche of the game. Together they complement each other, separate and having practitioners of each competing against each other, really only shows who can impose their gameplan the best, and who is the better fighter, not which is the better art.

It's ironic, because this is exactly what people accuse me of doing when in style vs style arguments on the main board, where I am bashing someone for "dead" training, and they all whine about how "all arts are dangerous in the right hands," and "It's not the style it's the individual" type idiocy. Difference here, is that all the styles listed, pressure test and train their stuff live, and in most cases compete with it. Trying to pinpoint which is the "best" really is a moot point.

An excellent post.

[Stalkachu]

But you can't perform a RNC on a high level BJJ person--it almost never happens at high level in BJJ comps. It happens so many times in UFC type matches because most of those guys' BJJ sucks.

Sorry, I need to pick out a single line from a number of fairly well-argued points. Because, frankly, it's ridiculous. ^_^ In BJJ competition, the RNC is relatively uncommon because, well, they're wearing a gi. All direct neck chokes are harder to sink with a gi. In turn, gi chokes are kinda easier to do when wearing a gi than when you're not. ^_-

And it happens more in UFC type matches because you're being PUNCHED IN THE FACE. This tends to mess with your sub defense for some strange reason (although I will admit that some people's sub defense leaves something to be desired). But the RNC is very much common. See Roger Gracie vs. Jacare, ADCC 2005 absolute finals, for one highlight reel example.

Will perhaps engage further in the overall discussion shortly. Ahem.

Take care,

Stalks

[TheMightyMcClaw]

Isn't the RNC still a fairly common submission in high level no-gi BJJ?

[Stalkachu]

That it is. And, uh, sorry if I didn't make the clear. But you got my main point, right? @_@

Take care,

Stalks

[flashlock]

So having a worse standup game is actually better? .

I never said that. I said having a simpler stand up game could be better than a so-called sophisticated one. You should read slower if you can't get it the first time through.

.[/QUOTE]hahaha, thats some strange logic. .[/QUOTE]

It would be, yes, if that's what I wrote... but I didn't.

.[/QUOTE]Yes sophisticated does = better. .[/QUOTE]

No.

.[/QUOTE]You could say exactly the same thing about groundwork. Judo's groundgame is much simpler than BJJ's, and i bet you'd be the first to say BJJs is better..[/QUOTE]

It's not "simpler"--it's inadequate. That's a subtle point, so you'll probably miss it.

.[/QUOTE] So Judo's standup is more sophisticated than BJJ's, but in this case you think simpler is better..[/QUOTE]

I don't think Judo's stand up is more sophisticated, never said that. It works on the same principals of BJJ. Strawman, anyone?

.[/QUOTE] Yet BJJ's groundwork is more sophisticated than Judo's, but this time being sophisticated is better..[/QUOTE]

Wrong. You're confusing "sophisticated" with effective. You're just playing semantics, and not too well. The principles and techniques of BJJ are quite simple. The diffiuclty comes from the anti-intuitive nature of many of the positions (moving into the opponent when your gut tells you to move away, relaxing instead of fighting, etc.)

.[/QUOTE] You started off well by saying that you had no experience of those other arts so you weren't going to comment, but then you had to go and make a load of ignorant nutrider comments anyway.[/QUOTE]

You like to ride nuts becuase you're gay. Na na nee na na... what does name calling prove? You started off bad, are bad, and will end bad. I commented because McClaw wanted me to go on and stated he wasn't going to attack me.

[NewLearner]

Flash, you really need to learn how to quote.

If you think that Judo's groundwork is not just simpler but inadequate, I think the argument could be made that bjj's standup is also inadequate. Both seem to be overwhelmingly better at one area thus making it pretty much even.

If you think that anti-intuitive (wouldn't that be counter intuitive?) is not a higher level of sophistication, I am not sure what is.

Since bjj comes from Judo, I don't really see how either is more sophisticated or less. What they really have is different focuses. Judo focuses on the takedowns and throws whereas bjj focuses on the groundwork submissions. Their sport forms have rules that enforce their focus. But both have plenty of each in their syllabus. Just as tkd has lots of things in it's official syllabus that is usually not practiced.

As Kempofist said, many of these style complement each other and it is best to crosstrain.

[Stalkachu]

Okay guys, both of you sit back and chill. Time for me to get on my soapbox and rant a little.

Flashlock's comment about the simplicity of the stand-up game is a valid one, and whilst a BJJ player will most likely get taken down by a Judo player, under BJJ rules, the BJJ player will then sub the Judo player (of equal experience) 95% (ish) of the time. And that's just how it is. A good Judo player knows how to keep a good base/posture in the stand-up, meaning your average BJJ player's shoots and modified judo throws are unlikely to work, and the Judo work on counter-throws will give them a sizeable advantage. But we are presuming that we are practising in a gi in a competition environment, where most Judo throws are more suitable.

BJJ's strength is the basic emphasis on the leg takedowns (double, single, double underhooks and trip, etc.), which is equally applicable both in gi and out of gi, and very much a proactive method of taking someone down to their favored position. And on an untrained opponent, that's all you need. Judo and BJJ are both suitable for taking someone down, the difference being that BJJ is more likely to be useful when you get there. There is also less emphasis on throws that lead to you turning your back in BJJ, because of the risk of having your back taken. Whilst on an untrained assailant this is less likely to be a problem, it is still a risk that the shoot takedowns minimize (although, in turn, there is the risk of the knee to the face to counter).

Hokay, I'm rambling now. To summarize:

BJJ Takedowns good and simple. Judo Takedowns good generally, better in a competition environment, and complex.

BJJ Groundwork excellent and complex (in competition) and potentially simple (in a non-competition environment). Judo Groundwork decent, Hold-downs excellent, Submissions - less so.

So, um, there.

Take care,

Stalks

[TheMightyMcClaw]

Does anyone know exactly why leg takedowns aren't used more in Judo? From what I've seen of BJJ, at least at my division, the single leg rules all. Sambo also seems to use a lot of wrestling style leg takedowns. I know that both BJJ and Sambo have been influenced heavily by western wrestling, and that the leg takedowns are one of the most visible result, but it seems like this influence hasn't spread to Judo. Is this a cultural factor for Judo? Is it part of the rules? Are single-legs just flat-out illegal? I know that double legs (morote gari), at least, have been added to the official Kodokan syllabus, and fireman carries (kata guruma) are pretty popular competition takedowns.

[Stalkachu]

Grabbing the gi pants for more than three seconds (if memory serves) is illegal. I believe this is to maximize the use of shoulder throws and make the sport more spectacular and hence, more successful as a spectator sport. I remember seeing a Pawel Nastula HL where various Judo people commented on his style (driving leg-based takedowns) as all power, no finesse. That being said, he was phenomenally successful with them, so... *shrug*

Located! -> http://youtube.com/watch?v=AudoyKz8OIo

I think that is at least one pretty serious flaw with the Judo ruleset that gives BJJ an advantage.

Take care,

Stalks

[flashlock]

Okay guys, both of you sit back and chill. Time for me to get on my soapbox and rant a little.

Flashlock's comment about the simplicity of the stand-up game is a valid one, and whilst a BJJ player will most likely get taken down by a Judo player, under BJJ rules, the BJJ player will then sub the Judo player (of equal experience) 95% (ish) of the time. And that's just how it is. A good Judo player knows how to keep a good base/posture in the stand-up, meaning your average BJJ player's shoots and modified judo throws are unlikely to work, and the Judo work on counter-throws will give them a sizeable advantage. But we are presuming that we are practising in a gi in a competition environment, where most Judo throws are more suitable.

BJJ's strength is the basic emphasis on the leg takedowns (double, single, double underhooks and trip, etc.), which is equally applicable both in gi and out of gi, and very much a proactive method of taking someone down to their favored position. And on an untrained opponent, that's all you need. Judo and BJJ are both suitable for taking someone down, the difference being that BJJ is more likely to be useful when you get there. There is also less emphasis on throws that lead to you turning your back in BJJ, because of the risk of having your back taken. Whilst on an untrained assailant this is less likely to be a problem, it is still a risk that the shoot takedowns minimize (although, in turn, there is the risk of the knee to the face to counter).

Hokay, I'm rambling now. To summarize:

BJJ Takedowns good and simple. Judo Takedowns good generally, better in a competition environment, and complex.

BJJ Groundwork excellent and complex (in competition) and potentially simple (in a non-competition environment). Judo Groundwork decent, Hold-downs excellent, Submissions - less so.

So, um, there.

Take care,

Stalks

Nicely put. You're right!

[Slindsay]

Grabbing the gi pants for more than three seconds (if memory serves) is illegal. I believe this is to maximize the use of shoulder throws and make the sport more spectacular and hence, more successful as a spectator sport. I remember seeing a Pawel Nastula HL where various Judo people commented on his style (driving leg-based takedowns) as all power, no finesse. That being said, he was phenomenally successful with them, so... *shrug*

Located! -> http://youtube.com/watch?v=AudoyKz8OIo

I think that is at least one pretty serious flaw with the Judo ruleset that gives BJJ an advantage.

Take care,

Stalks

I personally, find it ridiculously easy to stop any variant on the X-leg takedown in a Gi, it's just so slow and easy to spot most of the time, you need to set it up either by catching your opponent completely off guard or with grip fighting anyway. I think it's more common in Judo than people think because they tend not to see it in higher lever competition for the reason that it is to easy to have it defended and end in a bad position.

On Judo subs, I don't think that what we do is inferior to BJJ particularly (Armbar, collar chokes, triangle choke, RNC) It's just typicaly not set up from the guard much, instead it's setup off throws or throw counters and against the turtle (Another reason that a double leg can be a bad idea in Judo as a large % of ground work targts the turtle). In addition that is all you do in Judo typically whereas in BJJ you have much more available to you.

[TheMightyMcClaw]

I thought it might be a standardized grips thing.
I've heard a couple people mention before that the gi helps stop the shoot. I still don't understand this, and given the number of times I've been single-legged at tournaments, I would love to. How does this work?

[Stalkachu]

Oh, I hear you on the double leg in a gi stuff. S'very true. Double legs, strictly speaking, are difficult to pull off 'raw'. However, with the various combinations of trips, body locks, ankle picks etc. etc. they do remain a potent weapon, even at high level BJJ competition.

It's just that no-gi, Judo throws are much more limited than BJJ takedowns, unless the Judo player trains no-gi. Which very few do.

Take care,

Stalks

[hanakuso]

As for Judo, BJJ blows it out of the water; I'm sorry to the Judo guys, but from what I've learned it is much weaker. .


Wow. :Alien:

[hanakuso]

Look at the top people today. Hughes, a wrestler, who defeated the Prodigy Penn. Liddel who is Kemp with some bjj who has lost to wrestlers but is primarily a striker and out of all his fights has only had one submission. Couture, Ortiz, Evans, and tons of others are far more wrestling oriented.




Now look here, if you're trying to say that wrestling is best of all, then...


then...


...then you are a freakin' genius! :D

[Stalkachu]

In short, the gi means that most shoots from clinch range will require you to gripfight otherwise the grips will give them the control to stuff the takedown. And shoots from outside the clinch range are inherently unreliable in any context, since there's always much more time to sprawl. In my experience, though, the higher the BJJ ranks rise, the more fights turn into Judo matches on the feet, with the added point of individual fighters pulling guard. At white and often blue belt level, it's all about the leg takedowns and guard pulling. Later on, that gets mixed up a lot more as players who want to be on top need new ways to gain that position.

Take care,

Stalks

[hanakuso]

I personally, find it ridiculously easy to stop any variant on the X-leg takedown in a Gi, it's just so slow and easy to spot most of the time.



:confused: Its slow and easy to spot because you are wearing a dogi? :confused:

[Slindsay]

I thought it might be a standardized grips thing.
I've heard a couple people mention before that the gi helps stop the shoot. I still don't understand this, and given the number of times I've been single-legged at tournaments, I would love to. How does this work?

Well, if they are shooting in from outside of gripping range then:
a) You have about half an hour to react to it
b) If you get even a slight contact on their shoulder as they come in, you can push of it to sprawl out on top and force them down into turtle/let them back up and try for your own hip throw as they come back up

If they try to shoot in from gripping range:

a) You'll already have some sort of grip on them so you can drive down on the shoot killing it's momentum through even a crappy grip
b)If they have a lapel grip, they sprawl out, keep the lapel grip and go straight into a clock choke when you start to turtle up

The exception is when your in gripping range and don't have a grip on the other guy, then you have a decent chance of pulling off a nice morote gari, but to do that you need to be a better gripper to start with, and if your a much better gripper then you can pick any throw you like really.

If your getting single legged all the time I'd guess that your distancing was a bit off or your simply fighting people better than you that happen to favour the single leg, if you have one side significantly forward then I would be single legging you if:

a) You had the same hand out looking for a high grip on my collar and you wheren't making any contact with either of my arms, so I could just go straight in from there
b) You where standing to side on to me, or alternatively you wheren't turning fast enough when I stepped to your outside
and most importantly
c) Your within gripping range and have no sort of grip so you don't have much time to to sprawl out and don't have any grip to slow the shot and sprawl out from.

If your getting single legged from a strainght on kinda position then your just weird.

Or you might be fighting Rhadi Ferguson. You should check, ask your trainnign partner if he's a black olympic heavyweight Judo champ. You might just not have noticed *

* Yeah I know he mainly goes for double legs, sue me.

[Slindsay]

:confused: Its slow and easy to spot because you are wearing a dogi? :confused:

Yeah, it pretty much offers mystical powers.

[hanakuso]

Well now, that is somethin' right there!

[Slindsay]

Well now, that it somethin' right there!

Alternatively see the post before that one :D

Another thing I find about single legs (While I'm thinking about it) Is that if they do get a grip on your leg, if you can get the other one back enough the gi makes it kinda easy to get an underhook and then sprawl the other leg free.

DISCLAIMER: This is just what I do against any grab to one leg including the single leg takedown but also te garuma and the like. I never realised I was consciously doing this till i thought about it just now. Plus I'm like a demi god* so this might not work for you if your only mortal.

1) You have someone going in for the single leg with the grip on one leg
2) They want to circle towards your other leg to stop driving you back and instead drive you sideways to complete thei takedown
3) You can stall their movement to the side by placing a hand on their shoulder nearest your free leg and because of the gi friction I think you can keep it their more easily
4) Grip the lapel of the arm on the same side as your gripped leg tug on it a couple of times to make space and then slide your arm under for an underhook
5) At the same time switch your non underhooking shoulder block to a nice juicy high collar grip
5) Now sprawl the trapped leg back to break their grip on your leg
6) Use the high collar and underhook to turn them over

* If we take demi god to mean really fat and quite strong

[Slindsay]

As for Judo, BJJ blows it out of the water; I'm sorry to the Judo guys, but from what I've learned it is much weaker. .

I'm tempted to be rational and ask if you mean for MMA, Grappling comps, BJJ comps, Judo comps, self defence or what but I've instead decided not to bother because I know the discussion will make me sad.

All I'll say is that I'm willing to bet a fiver that I've done more Judo than you have done BJJ and Judo put together and that I've done more BJJ than you've done BJJ and Judo put together.

What with that huge amount of trainning that I've done in BJJ* and Judo*

* 1 year and it wasn't even really BJJ as much as it was Gi based grappling in a class of mainly BJJ guys once a week when I could be bothered

** Just abit more than 1 year cos my Jitsu instructors also a Judo first dan and Judo's on the Jitsu curriculum.

[TheMightyMcClaw]

Now that I think about, I'm pretty sure I do have a tendency to keep one leg substantially further forward than the other, and that's why people keep shooting for it. That, and I sprawl terribly. And I am fighting Rhadi Ferguson.
I'll try your advice for defending the single. Thanks.

[EternalRage]

I'm tempted to be rational and ask if you mean for MMA, Grappling comps, BJJ comps, Judo comps, self defence or what but I've instead decided not to bother because I know the discussion will make me sad.

All I'll say is that I'm willing to bet a fiver that I've done more Judo than you have done BJJ and Judo put together and that I've done more BJJ than you've done BJJ and Judo put together.

What with that huge amount of trainning that I've done in BJJ* and Judo*

* 1 year and it wasn't even really BJJ as much as it was Gi based grappling in a class of mainly BJJ guys once a week when I could be bothered

** Just abit more than 1 year cos my Jitsu instructors also a Judo first dan and Judo's on the Jitsu curriculum.
wheres the double asterick at?

= D

[Oversoul]

I don't know what all this nonsense is about leg shots not being used in judo. Leg shots are excellent in judo. They're not as common as uchimata, but nothing is. Kuchiki taoshi is one of my favorite throws to use in judo and other shooting attacks see use too.

[Slindsay]

wheres the double asterick at?

= D

It was meant to be after the Judo one :cry: Now all the internet kids won't think I'm cool.

[NewLearner]

Okay guys, both of you sit back and chill. Time for me to get on my soapbox and rant a little.

Flashlock's comment about the simplicity of the stand-up game is a valid one, and whilst a BJJ player will most likely get taken down by a Judo player, under BJJ rules, the BJJ player will then sub the Judo player (of equal experience) 95% (ish) of the time. And that's just how it is. A good Judo player knows how to keep a good base/posture in the stand-up, meaning your average BJJ player's shoots and modified judo throws are unlikely to work, and the Judo work on counter-throws will give them a sizeable advantage. But we are presuming that we are practising in a gi in a competition environment, where most Judo throws are more suitable.
Really? As soon as they hit the ground, a bjj guy will instantly get a submission before an intelligent judo guy will be able to stand back 95% of the time? You guys practice that much putting on submissions in the middle of a throw?

BJJ's strength is the basic emphasis on the leg takedowns (double, single, double underhooks and trip, etc.), which is equally applicable both in gi and out of gi, and very much a proactive method of taking someone down to their favored position. And on an untrained opponent, that's all you need. Judo and BJJ are both suitable for taking someone down, the difference being that BJJ is more likely to be useful when you get there. There is also less emphasis on throws that lead to you turning your back in BJJ, because of the risk of having your back taken. Whilst on an untrained assailant this is less likely to be a problem, it is still a risk that the shoot takedowns minimize (although, in turn, there is the risk of the knee to the face to counter).

Hokay, I'm rambling now. To summarize:

BJJ Takedowns good and simple. Judo Takedowns good generally, better in a competition environment, and complex.

BJJ Groundwork excellent and complex (in competition) and potentially simple (in a non-competition environment). Judo Groundwork decent, Hold-downs excellent, Submissions - less so.

So, um, there.

Take care,

Stalks

[NewLearner]

I personally, find it ridiculously easy to stop any variant on the X-leg takedown in a Gi, it's just so slow and easy to spot most of the time, you need to set it up either by catching your opponent completely off guard or with grip fighting anyway. I think it's more common in Judo than people think because they tend not to see it in higher lever competition for the reason that it is to easy to have it defended and end in a bad position.

On Judo subs, I don't think that what we do is inferior to BJJ particularly (Armbar, collar chokes, triangle choke, RNC) It's just typicaly not set up from the guard much, instead it's setup off throws or throw counters and against the turtle (Another reason that a double leg can be a bad idea in Judo as a large % of ground work targts the turtle). In addition that is all you do in Judo typically whereas in BJJ you have much more available to you.

Do you think it might be because the leg takedowns aren't the bread and butter of Judo and thus people are slow with them or is it really that the gi inteferes? Have you tried defending against a judo guy who has done a lot of wrestling since it is bread and butter of the wrestler? I would be very interested in your response.

[NewLearner]

Now look here, if you're trying to say that wrestling is best of all, then...

then...

...then you are a freakin' genius! :D
That certainly wasn't what I was trying to say at all. The part you had quoted was merely to show that wrestlers can compete very well against bjj guys when they understand the rules of the game and work on their weak areas.

I think each of them have their strengths and weaknesses. As a wrestler, I was very good at takedowns and positioning people where I wanted them. I was not so good at submissions and not giving up the back.

[EternalRage]

Someone email Karo Parisian to go punch BJ Penn in the face and see what happens

[Slindsay]

Do you think it might be because the leg takedowns aren't the bread and butter of Judo and thus people are slow with them or is it really that the gi inteferes? Have you tried defending against a judo guy who has done a lot of wrestling since it is bread and butter of the wrestler? I would be very interested in your response.

I have to be completely honest here and say... yes :D We have a guy at our club who went to Uni in America and as such wrestled a lot and he says that double legs are harder to pull off in the Gi than they are without it by a long way and he doesn't pull them off very often.

Having said that, I once went up against a wrestling instructor or something like at a seminar by Neil Adams after only a few months of training in Judo and he double legged me all day long :D He did however tell me afterwards that his double leg was his move and he'd been doing it for a long time so I felt better after that.

I'm not saying that double legs can't work with a Gi on by any means, I've done them myself a few times and there's always the chance that they will foul up, it's just they are no more or less brilliant than other throws with the Gi on, whereas without the Gi they have several significant advantages.

But really, the friction the Gi allows you to generate off even very minor contact coupled with the fact you may already have some sort of decent grip on them means that the double leg is harder.

[hanakuso]

That certainly wasn't what I was trying to say at all. .


Shhhh! Yes it was! :woo:




:D