Idealist/Realist or Capitalist?

[Andy Murray]

The debate on what a Black Belt means looks set to continue on for a while yet, meantime I have another bee in my bonnet!

We mostly all start training because we have been impressed by someone, respect someone, want to emulate someone etc.

Following that train of thought, is it logical to assume that; if our sensei, sifu, guru etc is in it purely for the money, then we will eventually become like them ( i.e. choose the dark side )?

If someone can find me a safe hall which costs nothing to use, students who are unlikely to sue me if they trip and break a pinky, and a like minded association which will support that ideal, then I will teach for nothing.

First of all you start doing something you really love. Then pressure is applied on you to make money, and before you know where you are, you are only doing it for the money, and no longer love it. Worse than that, some people become so focussed on the money that they become politically active. You ony have to look at the number of spin-off styles and organisations. If you have ever seen the film 'The Life of Brian' it's a bit like the scene where they all sit around, confused over which organisation they belong to, 'The Judean Peoples Front', 'The Peoples Front of Judea', or 'The popular Front of Judea'.

If you have no idea what I am talking about, then I apologise, as you are obviously in a good club/organisation and should stay there.

Too many people stop Training in Martial Arts for the wrong reasons.

In some cases there are people whose sole qualification to Black Belt, is an ability in the field of Politics......!

Phew.......glad I got that off my chest!:mad:

[Cooler]

Well Andy how do you reply to this one, you have raised some interesting points.

Firstly I'd like to say I started martial arts as did many thousands of students because of one man 'the late great Bruce Lee.'

On the subject of money I am led to believe 'correct me if I am wrong' that Bruce Lee would charge ridiculous amounts of money for personal training about $250.00 per hour. Yet at the same time he gave up teaching because he felt his students instead of learning for themselves were taking everything he said to literally, and that was not what his style was about. So I guess what I am trying to say is there are a lot of people making a lot of money out there from there art but they still have a love for what they teach.

Politics on the other hand is a different matter, I feel once politics hits your club you are on a downward slop to failure. I myself gave up teaching due to politics and many of my friends gave up for the same reasons. When politics steps in you loose your love for what you are doing and once that happens you might as well stop teaching because your students notice the change.

I have not taught now for the last 4 years even though I have about 18 years experience in the martial arts. This is mainly due to the fact I don't feel good enough to go it alone without an organisation behind me.

Anyway I don't know if I staid on track with what Andy was talking about if not sorry Andy and if no one has any idea what I am going on about then I to apologise.

Cooler

[Chazz]

First of all to a question to all of us that have thought about teaching, WOW

To Cooler, I’m sure we could find an Org to back you that’s politic free if you started teaching again.

Andy Murray:
I completely understand what you are going through. Right now I am teaching and making no money at all. Everything I make is put into the building for rent. It doesn’t bother me all that much. I’m doing something that I love while watching a group of student grow within the martial arts in front of my eyes. That’s most of my payment. I’m not in this to get rich. I would like to just be able to make a living at it. If I find a better job doing something else, I wouldn’t mind teaching for free. Cause its in my heart. Now about leaving the instructor who is on (the dark side) I wouldn’t go that far. As long as you learn all that you can and keep a straight mind, that’s all that maters.
:cool:

[waya]

I have seen quite a few instructors, some people I trained with, go bad because of the almighty dollar. I have learned that you get pretty poor instruction from this type. Luckily the instructor In train Hapkido under doesn't fall into this category although he constantly worries he will with rent and everything for the school. Although not exclusive to the arts, I think it has gotten worse than most other places because it can be such a good get rich quick scheme, especially with TKD becoming a medal sport in the Olympics.... Sad to see but all too true. Add to that the problem alot of schools face with parents of students screaming "I pay you $$$ a month, why didn't my child get their belt" and you run into real problems. Just my opinion.

Rob

[Chazz]

Not all TKD school are like that. WTF TKD is an Olympic sport NOT ITF TKD. We are a traditional Martial Arts.

[waya]

Chazz,
I think I unintentionally implied that all were that way, my mistake. There are many good TKD instructors out there, it was just an easy example of the issue since alot of the instructors I know (and one I trained under) ended up that way because they started making alot of money. My appologies for miswording that.

Rob

[Chazz]

No worries brother,
I have just been trying to tell people that there is a differencs in Tae Kwon Do. Eventhough we are brother and sisters and the martial arts and Tae Kwon Do as well, There are WTF as well as ITF Tae Kwon Do.

take Care
Chazz

[Freeform]

I've no problem with people who want to earn a living out of teaching martial arts so long as their straight and up front about the service that they are suppling. I started training in a very serious and hard school where the instructor would travel about 30/40 miles to teach us and all he wanted was for whoever turned up to train to split the rental of the hall. I'm maybe off the point here but what I'm trying to say is that we must remember why we started training and why we love the martial arts. If ever they become boring or tedious (like 'oh no, I've got to teach a class of beginners, oh f*£$!) then we've lost our way.

[waya]

I don't think earning a living teaching is wrong.... I just hate seeing an instructor that is more concerned about the money than the quality of instruction. I think an instructor should be compensated for the teaching they give, if it is good instruction, because what they are giving you can not possibly have a price put on it. But as well as the money, you get the politics that are just as bad.

Rob

[Chazz]

True that Rob,

You just said my complete thoughts. I think that once politics enters the Dojon, that everything goes out the window. Instead of thinking about your students and their education in the martial arts you start thinking of how your going tp keep the people "watching" you happy and what you can do to stay on their "good side." One politics enters, i believe that starts the end of a school.

-Chazz

[waya]

Definitely, I think that the only hands that should be involved in the teaching are those of the head instructor.... That is the problem I have seen with alot of organizations, they want to tell people how to teach, and what to do in class..... The problem with that is they aren't there themselves to see if it works in one particular school. Then the instructor cares more about impressing them and much less about whether the students are getting anything out of it.

Rob

[Chazz]

AMEN BROTHER ROB

Instructors and the same as thier students. One that instructor know how to teach so that all of his/her students are able to learn. Not all students can be taught the same. Telling someone HOW TO TEACH is like saying "Do it MY my and NO other, if they dont understand its not your fault" NOT IN MY SCHOOL. I teach my class the way i think i should. Our classes are Mixed, little kids with adults. So i have to be able to teach to where the little kids understand and the adults are not bored. Its a lot of work but i do it. Im just glad that my ORG lest me do this and makes sure politics says out of our dojon

-Chazz

[waya]

That's a huge point in their favor..... I am a big fan of any non poltical org. That's half the reason I don't teach, the politics are too much for me, (the other half being that I am still too busy learning lol).
Mixed classes are hard... You're doing really well making that work.

Rob

[Chazz]

I give all Instructors credit *bows to you* I thougth that just keeping up with my martial arts work outs was hard enough, but to have to teach then find time to study martial arts as well... that takes a lot out of you. Ive only been teaching for a short while now and i have to give props to the Instructors who have been teaching from many years. GOOD JOB TEACHERS!!!!!
-Chazz

[Andy Murray]

Hey I dissapear for a week and you guys debate without me.

As some of you have mentioned, i started my own training because I was personally inspired. My instructor was doing 500 mile round trips, twice a week to spread his system to my area. he was inspirational, and, as a young guy, I would confess to a little hero worship. I would have walked on fire for this guy. His organisation applied pressure on him to make money. He needed money to continue inspiring more people. At times the spark that ignited his students was extinguished by pressures completely unrelated to what he was good at.

Now that I find myself in the role of 'spark', and I talk to the combustible, I find that life has turned full circle. as a child grows to adult hood, only to become a parent, so the student becomes Sifu. When you are the student you aspire to be the Sifu and when you are the Sifu , you aspire to be the student.

As a child we say to our fathers; 'when I am a Dad, I won't treat my children like that'. When, and only when, you are a father you find out why he did what he did.

If you want to teach Martial Arts, you must learn from the mistakes made by your Instructors.........Not repeat them!!!

[waya]

lol Andy, see what happens when ya vanish, ya miss all the good stuff.

Personally I started as a way to regulate my behavior... It was just something to tire me out so I would sleep, then later to give me discipline I lacked in everything else. I stuck with it because it became part of me, now I wouldn't give up training for anyone. I'm not sure I will ever take the role of teaching..... I don't feel I am ready mentally now and I am too busy learning. But I totally agree with learning from the mistakes made by your own instructors and not repeating them. But as with anything else in life many times those mistakes become a never ending circle.

Rob

[Chazz]

I was put into it cause i was shy and my parents thought it would help. Now, just like Rob, its apart of my life. It has given so much more to me than i have put into it and i love it.

[Andy Murray]

Well if you talk as much as you post Chazz, then you certainly aint shy! lol

[Chazz]

Well i dont know if im going to take that as an insult or not but oh well.
*LOL*

I dont talk as much as i post.

Chazz

[waya]

LOL gotta admit that was good. Thank God this isn't voice chat then Chazz, you'd still be working on your first post LOL j/k :-)

I am the same though sometimes LOL

Rob

[Chazz]

HAHA guys.
Thats Funny. I see how it is. :-)

[waya]

LOL well one of us has to be the one to take the flak LOL :-)

[Andy Murray]

Ok Guys, it was my fault, but can we stick with the thread please!

[waya]

ok, so we know why we got involved, but why are we still in martial arts?

[Chazz]

Cause its apart of our lives. For me the idea to better myself and learn from others helps me stay in it. The bond i have to so many in and out of my club. DEDICATION
Chazz

[Andy Murray]

In what way would you say MA has changed your values?

[Chazz]

Respect for all, the girls can be just a good as the guys, loyalty, honor, dedication, and so much more

-Chazz

[waya]

It has given me more patience and self control. As well as a totally different outlook on any bad situation, whether it be confrontational, or just something happening that I would normally see as bad. I guess I tend to look more into what's behind things and why they are, and what can I learn from them now.

[Andy Murray]

Some of the issues raised originally have become entangled with issues on a similar thread entitled 'Commercialisation', elsewhere on the forum.

[Ozebob]

Hi All,

Those that teach for nothing are wonderful human beings who are being taken advantage of by unscrupulous students too lousy to see the value in what they are learning.. bah!

I don't see too many coaches in other arts/sports expected to give up their valuable time and opportunities to be with their family to teach the great unwashed that think life is free man..

Pay your way,
Bob McMahon

[Andy Murray]

Hi Bob,

Having looked into your own History, and the acheivements you have made in a long MA career, please believe me when I state that this thread is not aimed at successful professional Instructors. Nor, as I have said before, am I seeking some form of 'Saint' status. Many of the M Artists posting on this site are people with great experience and knowledge, like yourself.

The 'Idealist, Realist or Capitalist' thread was probably the first thread on this site to raise a contentious issue. I did this with full consciousness of the reaction it was likely to cause. I wrote it to get people talking, and opening up. In effect I was 'drawing fire', to see who the big guns were. At the time of that initial post, the membership to the forum was small!

The themes gradually got mixed in with other threads, such as Commercialisation. I sensed a raw spot with a lot of the guys posting so I kept pouring in the salt.

No one has really asked me a direct question as to my own feelings on the subjects I raise, most people just attack them. I have seen the techniques that most of you use when you go on the offensive. A lot of you overextend, leaving yourselves open to a more effective counter attack.

I teach MA to attract like minded people and try and instill in them the values I learned through my own tuition. I need no remuneration, because the process is it's own reward. I do however charge for lessons! We should strive to learn perpetually from each other. I show you mine, you show me yours.

Do we do things because that is what we have always done, or what we were always taught?

Choice is to choose!

Listening is best done in silence!

:Angel:

[Pablo]

I'm with Bob on this one.
Everyone makes the MA into something that has meaning for themselves, and the variations are endless. Even though I think that my way suits me best, I don't think that anyone else is wrong for having a different take on the MAs.
I realize that there are plenty of folks out there for whom the martial arts IS a sport, and it is quite rational for them to want the same sort of professional compensation that a coach would get in other sports.
There are also those for whom the MAs are more of a spiritual journey than a 'bidness', and it also logically follows that they may not want to 'corrupt' their spirituality with the pursuit of money.
There are also those who fall along every possible point in between. Therefor, I don't see how it is terribly useful (maybe interesting, but not too useful) to polarize something as complex as the marial arts into Either/Or...

All of the usual disclaimers apply:
AFAIK, IMHO, FWIW, My.02, YMMV, etc.
;)

Take care

paul

[Andy Murray]

Thanks Pablo,

Very well summarised. You ask a question at the post, along the lines of; So what is the point in arguing about it.



There are also those who fall along every possible point in between. Therefor, I don't see how it is terribly useful (maybe interesting, but not too useful) to polarize something as complex as the marial arts into Either/Or...

I thought I had already just answered this;

The 'Idealist, Realist or Capitalist' thread was probably the first thread on this site to raise a contentious issue. I did this with full consciousness of the reaction it was likely to cause. I wrote it to get people talking, and opening up. In effect I was 'drawing fire', to see who the big guns were. At the time of that initial post, the membership to the forum was small!

As the subject of debate is a question I raised, the answers are certainly "useful " to me. I'm not saying I am an Idealist, Realist or Capitalist, just looking for open ended suggestions.

It is very easy to get discussion going, by choosing subject matter which is controversial. If I started a thread about 'Police Brutality' or 'Racism in the Martial Arts' for example. It is interesting to note, that when I posted 'Amazing Stories' I only got one reply, and that post was entirely focussed on positive aspects of the arts.

Is a debate 'polarised' by the question, the answer, or by both?

YMWAH, AYFSOE

[Ozebob]

Originally posted by Andy Murray
Hi Bob,

Having looked into your own History, and the acheivements you have made in a long MA career, please believe me when I state that this thread is not aimed at successful professional Instructors. Nor, as I have said before, am I seeking some form of 'Saint' status. Many of the M Artists posting on this site are people with great experience and knowledge, like yourself.

# thank you..

The 'Idealist, Realist or Capitalist' thread was probably the first thread on this site to raise a contentious issue. I did this with full consciousness of the reaction it was likely to cause. I wrote it to get people talking, and opening up. In effect I was 'drawing fire', to see who the big guns were. At the time of that initial post, the membership to the forum was small!

# I know and obliged :)

The themes gradually got mixed in with other threads, such as Commercialisation. I sensed a raw spot with a lot of the guys posting so I kept pouring in the salt.

# It is a raw spot with me. Too many people believe that making money in MA equates to doing something wrong.

No one has really asked me a direct question as to my own feelings on the subjects I raise, most people just attack them.

# Which is what you wanted you said above.

I have seen the techniques that most of you use when you go on the offensive. A lot of you overextend, leaving yourselves open to a more effective counter attack.

# Humnn, pretentious, moi :)

I teach MA to attract like minded people and try and instill in them the values I learned through my own tuition. I need no remuneration, because the process is it's own reward. I do however charge for lessons!

# Shame on you : )

We should strive to learn perpetually from each other. I show you mine, you show me yours.

# I'm here for some discussion and to share experiences.

Do we do things because that is what we have always done, or what we were always taught?

# I don't, I'm out there innovating and researching together

Snip pithy cliches :)

:Angel:

Regards,
Bob

[Pablo]

Andy wrote:
"...Is a debate 'polarised' by the question, the answer, or by both?..."

More likely by the way the question is framed.
If we define two positions, and a presumption that one of them is more correct, then we do indeed have a polarized debate. Debates may be entertaining, but as far as 'use' goes, the titillation that a debate incites seems less useful to me than an open exchange of a variety of view points, i.e. a forum.
In other words, I feel that a thread that discusses "From Idealists to Capitalists" is more 'useful' (NOT better, just more applicable) in getting a handle on the scope of the issue than a thread that sets up sides by asking "What are you? An Idealist or a Capitalist?". I'm not saying that there is anything wrong with the second thread, just that it seems likely to provide more controversy (and defending of 'sides') than substantive sharing.
The latter may have a more intriguing title, with a hint of conflict to stir things up, but in terms of researching a complex issue, the truth often lies somewhere in between. In that case, stirring things up may be, as I said earlier, more interesting, but less useful.

Thanks

paul

[Andy Murray]

In both cases gentlemen, your analysis is valid, if only as a historical comment

"From Idealists to Capitalists" is more 'useful' (NOT better, just more applicable) in getting a handle on the scope of the issue than a thread that sets up sides by asking "What are you? An Idealist or a Capitalist?".

I wasn't asking if anyone was an idealist or whatever. It was merely the title of a post. Neither was I claiming to be any of those things. Nor, did I accuse anybody of being those things.

If some people want to hang back in the debate, waiting to add their own 'sage' wisdom at the end, that's fine. The path a debate takes is a result of everyone involved in the debate, not just those of one ( perceived ) opinion.

No one has really asked me a direct question as to my own feelings on the subjects I raise, most people just attack them.

# Which is what you wanted you said above.

Here you refer to;

The 'Idealist, Realist or Capitalist' thread was probably the first thread on this site to raise a contentious issue. I did this with full consciousness of the reaction it was likely to cause. I wrote it to get people talking, and opening up. In effect I was 'drawing fire', to see who the big guns were. At the time of that initial post, the membership to the forum was small!

Just to clarify. Yes I want people to attack the subjects I raise, not my feelings (which incidentally are impregnable ).

At the end of he day.......

If anyone has a good idea about a topic for discussion, then they should raise the thread themselves, or shut the hell up!

Thank you for your constructive comments. I am humbled by your superior knowledge......perhaps you could teach me by example!

My cup is empty!



:woo:

[Pablo]

Ahhh, I get it. You WANT people to attack the subjects that you raise. In that case you might get a kick out of the Quaker and Taoist forums, all they do is argue, and call each other names.
:D

Seriously, I DO like the way that this martial arts forum is shaping up. There are many things in the martial arts that could stand to have the light of day cast upon them, such as racism in the MAs, which you had mentioned. Teacher worship, rank swapping, drugs in competition, the negative effects on kids of MAs, sexual conquest of students, and other problem areas are not going to go away if they are ignored, and I salute you for bringing up a touchy area.

I am afraid that I didn't do a great job of explaining my earlier comments in a non-critical manner. Let me try to NOT muddle things up further.
:o


Running something up the flagpole to see who salutes is a time honored and useful tradition. I agree that the subject as brought up did smoke out some of the folks with something to share.
My concern was that AFTER an initial flurry of responses, it quickly became (as do many hot button issues) merely a series of defensive responses along partisan lines. This happens all the time, and it is a perfectly natural occurence.
I was therefor suggesting that if we wished to delve deeper into this complex issue that we try a more sophisticated/precise tool, since the initial thread was starting to look more like a debate, and debates (like fighting) rarely get at the truth of an issue.
A crude analogy might be that Andy had thrown the deck of cards up into the air, which served to make things interesting.
I was now suggesting that we spread the cards out on the table and look for patterns that could be useful for an analysis.
To not perform such an analysis is to leave the door open for others (the government, other sports/businesses, or self appointed watchdogs) to use their own analyses, and their own agendas to 'solve' the martial art's problems through regulation or oversight.

Anyway, keep up the good work

paul

[Andy Murray]

Paul,

I gather that you have the gist of what I was trying to get across.

My concern was that AFTER an initial flurry of responses, it quickly became (as do many hot button issues) merely a series of defensive responses along partisan lines. This happens all the time, and it is a perfectly natural occurence.

Could you explain what you mean by partisan, and why you feel this to be a natural occurance?

I was therefor suggesting that if we wished to delve deeper into this complex issue that we try a more sophisticated/precise tool, since the initial thread was starting to look more like a debate, and debates (like fighting) rarely get at the truth of an issue.

I would ask also what you mean by a 'more sophisticated/precise tool? The reference I am seeing as relevant in the post you appear to be referring to runs;

In other words, I feel that a thread that discusses "From Idealists to Capitalists" is more 'useful' (NOT better, just more applicable) in getting a handle on the scope of the issue than a thread that sets up sides by asking "What are you? An Idealist or a Capitalist?". I'm not saying that there is anything wrong with the second thread, just that it seems likely to provide more controversy (and defending of 'sides') than substantive sharing.

The above describes neither the title of the original thread, nor the subsequent replies made! there was no " What are you?" That is a figment of your own interpretation.

How people react to this thread depends on their reaction to the three key words in the title.

1/ IDEALIST. 2/REALIST. 3/ CAPITALIST.

Look at these three words, and ask yourself;

Do any of these words describe you?

Do any of these words describe people you know?

Do any of these words provoke a negative reaction in you?

If, Pablo, you could go back in time to an empty forum, and rack your brains thinking; what question could I ask that will get people talking? What would you ask? How would you ask it? This is what happened, and that at least, I can prove!

As you said;

To not perform such an analysis is to leave the door open for others (the government, other sports/businesses, or self appointed watchdogs) to use their own analyses, and their own agendas to 'solve' the martial art's problems through regulation or oversight.


My cup runneth over, but I have a spare!

Andy

[Pablo]

Ahh mon cheri, your leeps say Non, Non , Non!, but my Google search says Oui, Oui!
:love:

To wit:
"...Following that train of thought, is it logical to assume that; if our sensei, sifu, guru etc is in it purely for the money, then we will eventually become like them ( i.e. choose the dark side )? ..."

Zees 'Daahrk Side', she is zee bad theeng, mai non? My imaginacione, she is not so figmented as you might perhaps declare, c'est la contremps?... :D

Seriously, you and I are not only on the same track here, we are on the same side. So is Bob. The terms that you list are loaded with connotations, and are therefor more suitable for drawing attention to an issue, than for dissecting the mechanisms behind that issue. Whether someone charges money or does not leads into a very complex set of questions that interrelate.

For example, starting with the idea of Capitalism and MA schools, we could look at:
Who owns a kata, can that kata be protected by a copyright, if yes then does copyright protection apply to techniques, etc, if not then can anyone claim any part of the martial arts, including rank or style names?
If there is no protection, and anyone can open up a Shotokan school, with a self awarded jodan, then how are the customers to be protected from non-authentic operators, and who is going to define authentic?
If the MAs are a commercial product that can be marketed like tinned meat, then who would be responsible if some problem arose ( like a large number of people suddenly being hurt in one of these schools). The Martial Arts industry?
Nowhere in the attempt to resolve these issues can I see an very efficient use for emotional hot button labels like Capitalist or Idealist. Those terms were great to open up the issue, and I would like to see this forum become a place to discuss touchy issues in depth without recycling labels and debate tactics. It shouldn't be a matter of debating an issue and 'winning', it should (IMHO) be a matter of discourse.

Thanks

paul


'Take away paradox from the thinker, and you have a professor'
S. Kierkegaard

[Andy Murray]

Paul,

I find it difficult to follow what you are trying to say here, and I imagine that I am not alone.

You just said;

Seriously, you and I are not only on the same track here, we are on the same side. So is Bob. The terms that you list are loaded with connotations, and are therefor more suitable for drawing attention to an issue, than for dissecting the mechanisms behind that issue. Whether someone charges money or does not leads into a very complex set of questions that interrelate.

I already explained this at least twice;

The 'Idealist, Realist or Capitalist' thread was probably the first thread on this site to raise a contentious issue. I did this with full consciousness of the reaction it was likely to cause. I wrote it to get people talking, and opening up. In effect I was 'drawing fire', to see who the big guns were. At the time of that initial post, the membership to the forum was small!

Yes I am drawing attention to an issue. I didn't promise to list all the popular questions on ethics behind the issue. The very fact that you are analysing the thread, means that you yourself are dissecting the mechanisms behind that issue, and this is what I set out to acheive.

Is your problem with, the title of the original post, the subject matter, or the subsequent replies?

Which of the above made it into a debate, as opposed to a free forum?

If you feel that you are limited to what is 'pc' by the rules of the forum, then feel free to send a Private Message.

It would be more useful to everyone visiting this site, if you were to stipulate some of your ideas on ' How to Post ' and 'What to Post' in clear diction. The place to do that ( correct me if I'm wrong ) would be on either a specific thread, a specific article in the magazine, or if you can be brief, as a supplement to the 'Rules' heading at the start fo the thread.

The final part of your last post, talks about, Capitalism, Standardisation and Commercialisation, these are all threads on the forum already.

Andy M

Communism is a nice idea, the problem is it doesn't bloody work!

And 'Lo', the pigs walked as men!

Orwell

[Pablo]

Andy, wrote:

"...I find it difficult to follow what you are trying to say here, and I imagine that I am not alone..."


The difference between debate and discourse should be pretty clear. You have done a very good job of raising a *debate* on this issue. By itself, that seems like a very good thing.
However, that debate has done little to offer any solutions, which is fine, since that is not the purpose of debate. Like fighting, the purpose of debate is to create interest and provide a 'winner'. Winning a debate, or a fight, does NOT mean that the underlying problems have been solved.

As somone who works towards researching solutions to these very same issues, I mentioned that I didn't find debate to be useful at providing answers, although it was useful for sparking interest. That isn't a criticism in any way shape or form. It is merely a comment, along the lines of "You've done a good job of clearing the brush with that chainsaw, now maybe we should go in with tweezers and pick out the little pests that are causing the root problem".

Now that you have done a good job of pointing out the problem, maybe we should go in and look at the little factors that are causing the root problem. Idealism and Capitalism are broad concepts, not little root factors, so lets look into some more useful terminology.

All of the above is my poor attempt to politely suggest that we drop the usual internet 'keyboard commando' tactics and work on some solutions, instead of trying to score points on each other.

Take care

paul

[Andy Murray]

Paul,

The difference between debate and discourse should be pretty clear. You have done a very good job of raising a *debate* on this issue. By itself, that seems like a very good thing.

I never asked for a debate. The post was never intended as a For/Against discussion. If anything, the heading covered the initial statement, and was asking, What do you think I am, what do you think I should be? If I had a 'debate' every time I asked people for an opinion, then I would be a very busy guy.

"You've done a good job of clearing the brush with that chainsaw, now maybe we should go in with tweezers and pick out the little pests that are causing the root problem".

Yes, finally,that is what I have been saying all along. Cooler was wise enough to start the thread 'Commercialisation', in connection with the 'Capitalist' part of my title. Hence the issue became more focussed. Hence Melanies thread on the 'McDojo'. Looks to me that clearing the path with a chainsaw as you put it, is exactly what was required!

Now that you have done a good job of pointing out the problem, maybe we should go in and look at the little factors that are causing the root problem. Idealism and Capitalism are broad concepts, not little root factors, so lets look into some more useful terminology.

So when you say 'useful terminology',do you mean more specific threads, like Commercialisation, Standardisation or something else?

All of the above is my poor attempt to politely suggest that we drop the usual internet 'keyboard commando' tactics and work on some solutions, instead of trying to score points on each other.

Taken as read. That is why some of the sentences in my posts to you have question marks at the end. I already made the same comment about point scoring elsewhere, so I am in complete agreement. I will not sit back and take it though!

My Dads bigger than your Dad. LOL

Andy

[hongkongfuey]

Bob,

I agree with what you are suggesting, in terms of breaking down this topic and performing a more detailed analysis. In particular :


If there is no protection, and anyone can open up a Shotokan school, with a self awarded jodan, then how are the customers to be protected from non-authentic operators, and who is going to define authentic?


was one of the issues I wanted to cover under 'Standardisation', but you phrased it perfectly here.

The story goes that in the orient, rival instructors would just beat the **** out of any rival instructor that were not any good. Instructors were proficient about practical application of techniques because they needed to be. We surely need some kind of body to do the equivilent in todays legal world.

Either that, or Myself, Andy Murray and Cooler will have to 'do the rounds' around the clubs in Scotland!

[Andy Murray]

Ah, HKF,

may I forward Fraser Halliday to be our fourth Musketeer, our Dartagnon. A quest.........to horse my friends!

[Greyghost]

All for one and everyman for himself!!!

[waya]

OK, the one thing I have not seen answered is which do we see oursleves as, a realist, an idealist, or a capitalist?

Rob

[Joseki]

Realist for me

but i do agree with you for some places i have gone to charge lots of money (say £6) for an hour but talking from experance its these people that get the people into their hall as for me i charge £2.50 for an hour and £3 for an hour and a half at my club, so it got me thinking if i charge say £15 for 2 hours i should get about 30 to 50 students in the door, but this is when (and it happens) instructors see pound coins or $ walking in the door and not people! and its these people (students friends) that maybe in years to come take over what you are doing

[hongkongfuey]

I suppose in life, I am a bit of a capitalist (wife and kids does that to you).

In Martial Arts I am an idealist and would happily start a club where I charged to pay for the hall and nothing else.

However, I am also a realist and know that I do not have the time at present I would need to dedicate to teaching.

[STASH]

In some ways I can be an idealist. Ever since I started doing Matial Arts 11 years ago, I have always wanted to learn "sacred" styles, Shoalin Kung-Fu in particular, unfortunetly I dont see any way to make that dream a reality, my realist side taking over. Sometimes you just have to work with what you got. TKD and JKD may not be Shaolin Kung Fu, but its a start. Its good to be an idealist but you have to keep it real at the same time.

[pgm316]

I often wonder why people want to teach. Some people will see teaching as the next stage in their learning process. Others will see it as only teaching, and for what other reason would you do this than for money or ego? I’ve always enjoyed training with teachers that want to learn more than teach. They’re main goal is learning and improving themselves, but in their development they will involve the class also and all their motives are likely to be genuine. Do you want the teacher that doesn’t learn? The teacher that runs the club?

Even for the teacher with good intentions it must be difficult. You will teach people for free, yet your responsible for paying rent and other bills and keeping on top of paper work and legal regulations. Its become a job already, and you’ve committed yourself to the lease of a building for so long! You train the students well, teach them like you we’re taught, concentrating on certain techniques over and over while people get bored and numbers decline leaving only the serious students. So what do you do, the one thing you said you never would, teach the flash moves and make it fun.

How can one person be a school? Should the school be a democracy or have a dictator. I prefer a club where people can join, work their way up the ranks and have a say in what happens ie the club is owned by its members. Politics is never going to go away, as certain people will kiss ass and get themselves in better positions than others and they’ve probably long since lost that first love of martial arts. I stay out of the politics, which means I also have little say in anything ;)

I still have no problem with the main teachers making some money, as long as the students get good value for money, ie being a hell of a lot cheaper than joining a gym :p But ask yourself will these same teachers hang around when the numbers go down and even teach you in their own living room if necessary!?