Wing Chun vs Grappling

[Anonymouse]

How does Wing Chun deal with fighters that will take the first hit, hoping its not going to take them out, then tackle you? One of the people that I train with fights this way when we are sparring, because he knows Im not going to strike him full force while sparring. I know most styles would say move to the side and redirect his movements, but I was just curious what you do when in small quarters (supposedly Wing Chun is meant for this).

[Sub zero]

I think that in any style u should always assume that your oponent will not go down unless youcompletly force him to. I can't think of a better way to describe it than overkill.

[J-kid]

cross train, your not going to out grapple a grappler.

Thats just plain dumb if your not a grappler trying to out grapple one would be insane. Learn some takedown defense to go with your striking.

[Anonymouse]

"Learn some takedown defense to go with your striking."

Umm, actually, thats kinda what Im trying to do. Im looking for techniques to use. I was wondering if Wing Chun (specifically) had any that they use against grapplers. I know of some techniques for a front grab, but most of the time (in my experience) grapplers will go for the tackle first.

[Cain]

Hmm.....in other words you want Wing Chun to be a "complete" MA...

Sorry, but that's ain't gonna happen, not even to muay thai :D

I dunno much about wing chun but does'nt it cover trapping close range strikes a lot?

Wing Chun's good at what it does, if you want to learn ground grappling and/or cover more ranges, easy - cross train :D

Disclaimer!!!!!!!!!

IMHO :D

|Cain|

[Andy Murray]

Originally posted by Cain
IMHO :D

|Cain|

Ah, the four most important letters on a discussion forum. :D

Cain's comment is largely true of the past, but not entirely of the present and future.

All credit to WC, because players are actively seeking to apply the system to the areas of grappling and groundfighting.

Some may scoff, but at least this has been recognised, and the art/practitioners seek to evolve.

[Anonymouse]

"Cross train"

Of course I cross train, but thats not the point. Im asking if anyone could help me with a specific technique (or techniques) in Wing Chun that will work against grapplers.

Andy, what do you do when you are faced with a grappler?

[Andy Murray]

Originally posted by Anonymouse

Andy, what do you do when you are faced with a grappler?

In a training environment?

I learn and use what I know.

[Andy Murray]

Originally posted by Anonymouse
"Cross train"

Of course I cross train, but thats not the point. Im asking if anyone could help me with a specific technique (or techniques) in Wing Chun that will work against grapplers.


I've recently seen applications of WC upright basics that make life difficult for all but the most experienced grapplers to obtain a dominant mount.

Ask your Sifu if he/she's up to speed on this.

No complete answer though.
The best way to deal with a good grappler is to get good at grappling.

[Anonymouse]

I wish i had a sifu, Im learning this on my own.

Anyway Im not terrible at grappling as is, it was mainly just an "Im curious" sorta question.

"I've recently seen applications of WC upright basics that make life difficult for all but the most experienced grapplers to obtain a dominant mount."

Do you remember which techniques?

[Andy Murray]

Sorry Anonymouse, but you can't learn much other than theory about WC on your own.

Think 'principle' not 'technique' ;)

[Velid]

Well, WC isnt really a grappling. One of the first things I learn when I joined was not to let yourself go to the ground, and if you are taken down then get up quickly.

If you taken to the ground you arent tottaly helpless, if you just think of the form and its princibles you should do well enough to get back on your feet.

[shoushuer]

dont let him take you to the ground, if hes close enough to take you down, he close enough to strike, strike the eyes, nose, throat, use knee lifts to the face if he comes in low, or push his head down driving him into the ground if he comes in low, kick him in the face/growing/stomach/ribs etc. if he comes in low. if he tries to push you, bring your hands up in between his so he cant make much contact to your body as you kick him in the growing, then lower your hands towards him so that your thumbs go into his eyes as he flaws foward because of your kick to the growing.

its not that hard, dont try and muscle with him, hop to the side and do a side/wheel kick to the growing/ribs.

[YODA]

Originally posted by shoushuer
dont let him take you to the ground, if hes close enough to take you down, he close enough to strike,

Not so - a good grappler will take you down from outside of kicking range. You COULD get in a strike on the way in - if he's timing is off - but you'll only get one chance!

There are no absolutes - as the great Larry Hartsell (High level of skills in BOTH areas) is fond of saying.... "Sometimes you get the bear - sometimes the bear gets you"

[Andy Murray]

Originally posted by YODA
"Sometimes you get the bear - sometimes the bear gets you"

LOL.

I think it's true of a lot of WC people.

"Oh No! I'm not vertical, how do I chain punch now?"

Do you remember which techniques?

Yes, it was Emin Boztepes Anti Grappling seminar.

Applications of WC principles used on the ground. Well thought out, and not dissimilar to something old Yoda himself showed me.

Not a 'get out of jail free' card by any means, but an important 'missing link' for many.

[Jackie Li]

I have seen a UFC match, Wing Chun v.s. Ju jitsu. The Ju jitsu guy killed the Wing Chun guy.

[Andy Murray]

Originally posted by Jackie Li
I have seen a UFC match, Wing Chun v.s. Ju jitsu. The Ju jitsu guy killed the Wing Chun guy.

Interesting. I take it you mean you saw this on video?

Can you give us a blow by blow account of what happened and why?

[Andy Murray]

Actually,
don't bother. Yoda was good enough to send me the whole 20 second fight, and it's more 'blow after blow' than 'blow by blow'.

The VT guy had no business being in there, he hadn't a clue.

Now I understand why people are so judgemental about WC.

[Anonymouse]

Any chance I could get a peek at that vid? At least to see what /doesnt/ work?

[Cain]

If you are reffering to the bullshido video an MMA guy on another forum said he would'nt use that video to describe either wrestling or wing chun.

Any chance I could get a peek at that vid? At least to see what /doesnt/ work?

I think it will be more of a question of who does'nt work ;)

|Cain|

[Andy Murray]

Originally posted by Anonymouse
Any chance I could get a peek at that vid? At least to see what /doesnt/ work?

Anonymouse believe me, you don't wanna see it.

Man Sau became Tap Sau and Wu sau becomes Beg Sau.:D

The VT person had absolutely no clue and shouldn't have been there.

No judgement on the art, just the player.

At the moment we can'y load Mpegs onto the forums but we're working on that.

[Anonymouse]

"Man Sau became Tap Sau and Wu sau becomes Beg Sau."

Lol!

I see, hehe, nevermind then.

[Sub zero]

Emin Boztepes, I know that name. Is he a well known instructor.*ponders*

[Andy Murray]

Do a Google search.

You'll be horrified in moments. :D

[CKava]

Poor Wing Chun... to try and restore a bit of self respect for the side, someone pointed out to me in a previous thread Kevin Chan is a Wing Chunner who competes in MMA although as I then pointed out he is heavily into Brazilian Jiu Jitsu as well.

Still as he says: "When fighting in Brazilian Ju-Jitsu I am able to utilises my Wing Chun skills of relaxed use of energy developed in Chi Sao and the raw close range power developed in many hours of basic drills." Kevin Chan.

And theres also a Wing Chun guy called Alan Orr who I believe competes in MMA. Still I have to admit I think most Wing Chun clubs could only improve if ground fighting was dealt with a bit more and tournaments anyone? They couldnt hurt!!! Still Im making generalisations Im sure lots of clubs do deal with these aspects- Ive seen Wing Chunners who can apply Wing Chun on the ground (but they definitely arent in the majority).

I know its not greatly helpful Anonymouse but I think the best way to learn how to implement Wing Chun on the ground is just to do what your doing, train with grapplers and experiment. Just like Andy said think principles not techniques (the techniques will need to change but the principles wont)...

[Andy Murray]

Originally posted by CKava
Poor Wing Chun... to try and restore a bit of self respect for the side, someone pointed out to me in a previous thread Kevin Chan is a Wing Chunner who competes in MMA although as I then pointed out he is heavily into Brazilian Jiu Jitsu as well.



Thanks CKava,

to be fair to WC, it's far more likely to evolve into these areas of practice than many other traditional KF styles.

I try to look at WC as a 'way' rather than a system, with principles to apply rather than techniques to perform.

I guess that's how Kevin Chan must see it in some ways, and all credit to him for actually doing it.

A failure is mine, and not the systems. ;)

[AgentX]

Wing Chun has the potential to stop a grappler.
Plus this guy was not fighting in a real fight(the fight had rules)
Plus he might not be enough prepared...
So just like Andy said we judge the player and not the art...

[Sporran]

I train primarily in WC, but crosstrain in grappling occasionally (when not injured). Like Yoda said, some people can shoot in very fast - my take is to train with them and develop a good sprawl. Good WC footwork combined with a decent sprawl goes a long way against people who primarily grapple.
If you train with resisting opponents, there's a lot WC can do for you.

If you stick (!) to training pat-a-cake chi sau, you'll soon find yourself tapping like Fred Astaire on speed.

Like anything, if you train smart and hard, your skill base will be more likely to work for you.

For groundwork, your sensitivity from WC will help, but you need to train the ground positions with somebody who knows the stuff well. It's an area where dabbling really isn't good enough

[FREEMAN]

what you are looking for is in the third form of wing chun
also don't sit to far back in your stance you can't react
as fast when fighting grappler and when sparring don't
hold back you are cheating yourself for not fighting the
way you are training to fight and you friend cause he
thinks his tec works but it may not cause you are holding
back

[Sporran]

Freeman,
What aspects of Biu Jee do you think are suitable for use against grapplers, MMA fighters etc- and why do you think this?
Have you used them to spar with grapplers?
Cheers,
Rich